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Old 10-09-2007, 11:03 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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Alliance Beteween Turkey and USA May Collaspe If Genocide Bill Passes

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071009/...ey_us_genocide

Quote:
ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey's president warned the U.S. government Tuesday that their longtime ties will be harmed if Congress passes a resolution putting the genocide label on the mass killings of ethnic Armenians in Ottoman Turk lands during World War I.

President Abdullah Gul said in a letter there would be "serious troubles" if Congress adopted the measure, which is expected to be considered Wednesday by the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Armenians, backed by many historians, contend hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in an organized genocide. Turks say the killings came amid widespread chaos and governmental breakdown as the 600-year-old Ottoman Empire collapsed in the years before modern Turkey was born in 1923.

In recent years, Armenians have campaigned for international recognition of the killings as genocide, and France is among countries that officially adopted that view. Turkey, a member of NATO along with France, broke military ties with the French government after that.

Gul's complaint to President Bush came as the Turkish governing party decided to ask for parliamentary approval for a military attack into northern Iraq, seeking to wipe out bases used by guerrillas of a Turkish Kurd separatist movement.

U.S. officials fear an incursion into Iraq's Kurdish region could destabilize one of the few areas in the country that have remained relatively peaceful and have urged the Turkish government against sending troops across the border.

The Bush administration is pressing Congress to reject the Armenian resolution, which would have no binding effect on U.S. foreign policy. But its supporters appear to have enough votes to win approval from the full House.

Some analysts said passage could break the last constraints holding the Turkish government back from striking into Iraq, despite the rising anger of Turks over recent attacks by rebels in largely Kurdish southeastern Turkey.

"What was preventing an operation was the fear that Turkey-U.S. relations might reach a new low, and concerns not to harm relations any further," said Ihsan Dagi in the international relations department of Middle East Technical University in Ankara.

"However, if the Armenian genocide resolution passes, that will be the moment when relations between Turkey and the United States collapse."

Polls say the United States already is unpopular in Turkey due to widespread opposition to the war in Iraq.

Many in the U.S. administration worry the Armenian resolution also could lead Turkey to restrict crucial supply routes to Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps to close Incirlik, a strategic Turkish air base used by the United States.

In Ankara, the U.S. Embassy warned that the resolution could spark demonstrations and anti-American anger across Turkey and said that American citizens should be vigilant.
Turkey is an ally of the US. Not only that, it is a Muslim Ally. And it is also a Democracy to boot. The majority of Turks believe genocide haven't happened.

I don't care what really happened during WWI. What I do care is that because of those events, America's ties with Turkey may finally break. America loses a valuable ally...and an angry Turkish military may decide to NO LONGER HELP AMERICA. Heh, they may even decide to take manners in their own hands and invade Iraq itself to root out the Kurdish terrorists.

Listen, you don't criticize your allies. You don't go and tell them that they are evil. America wouldn't like it if Turkey passed resolutions blaming America for the death of Native Americans...so why is it okay for America to pass such a resolution?

/sigh. Please forgive me for my outburst. This bill is always introduced time and time again, and eventually, it will pass. If it won't happen today, it will happen under a Democratic administration. It's eventual. There is nothing that can stop the trend. But, why?


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Old 10-09-2007, 11:12 PM   #2
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Why does it matter? If you ask me, Turkey is getting a bit up in arms about the whole thing. It happened decades ago, people... And all it is is putting a name on a series of mass killings that happened back then, which, if they did happen, then the name is most likely entirely accurate. We're not telling them they're evil, we're just telling them that we consider something that happened many years ago in their country genocide.

I'm not even sure why this bill is such a big deal anyways, though.... I mean, why does it matter? I'm still not very sure what it is about. But for Turkey to get all pissed off about it, well....
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Old 10-10-2007, 12:05 AM   #3
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the Turks are still committing genocide, this time against Greeks. They burned a Greek child alive not too long ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide )

I think it's about time we reconsider our alliance with a nation that has wantonly murdered its own citizens.





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Old 10-10-2007, 01:02 AM   #4
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Is it just me, or is it ironic that while the US is unpopular over the war in Iraq, Turkey is getting ready to invade under their own terms?

edit: I've also always questioned why people allied with Turkey, they're not some herald of democracy, and they're not exactly friendly either. It's a small wonder why they havn't been let into the EU(or did they? I can't remember, it's was recent though).


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Old 10-10-2007, 01:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt
the Turks are still committing genocide, this time against Greeks. They burned a Greek child alive not too long ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide )

I think it's about time we reconsider our alliance with a nation that has wantonly murdered its own citizens.
Interesting, I didn't know that... Hmmm, I have to agree with you, if they are still doing this, then - why even pursue an alliance?

In fact, why are they getting upset at us in the first place, if they are doing the same thing as we speak?
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:30 AM   #6
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I agree with RobQel-Droma, we should not be making people today pay for things such as the Stolen Generation. Even if we should it would be hard given the hold Turkey would have over America, war against the Middle East and such.
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:51 AM   #7
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*facepalms*

Do anyone actually cares what Turkey says about the events in Anatolia and Armenia? Turkey claimed that Greece was trying to take over Pontus, after all...

Uh, RobQel-Droma, the wikipeida article states that it was being done in the 1920's. Whatever happened over there, it's OVER. Turkey isn't doing it anymore. It is not going on right now, that's what the wikipedia article that Galt sourced.

Besides, the Turkey of the past is different of Turkey of today, a democracy. I still dislike people condemning other nations and cursing them, calling them evil names, etc., forgetting about the ideas of realism. Turkey's an ally, we can't just go and cut off ties with countries we don't like. We'll end up having no friends in the long term. It could easily ruin us in the long haul. But...er...

*gives up*


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Old 10-10-2007, 03:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
You don't go and tell them that they are evil.
Are we really saying that Turkey is evil? We are saying people in that region were murdered in organized genocide almost 100 years ago. I hardly consider that calling Turkey evil, unless their leaders and people live a lot longer than us. This is more of a way to correct an omission in the history books and to try to honor the dead. We cannot do anything for them, but work to find ways to prevent genocide in the future.

I don’t see the Germans as evil for what happen over 62 years ago, so I’m not going to hold the Turkish people or government as evil for what happened almost 100 years ago.
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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
America wouldn't like it if Turkey passed resolutions blaming America for the death of Native Americans ...
I would not have a problem with any country passing a resolution condemning our treatment of Native Americans, slaves or the way we treated the Japanese Americans during WW II. Why would I they would be correct. America has committed some horrific atrocities. I actually like remember them so that we do not commit the same sins again. That does not mean America is evil because of the sins of our forefathers and neither is Turkey, Japan (WW II) or Germany.

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Originally Posted by SilentScope001
so why is it okay for America to pass such a resolution?
The reason I believe it is okay is the same reason I said they could pass a resolution blaming America for the deaths of Native Americans, treatment of slaves and later African Americans and our mistreatment of other ethnic groups, because it is the truth.
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Old 10-10-2007, 05:57 PM   #9
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http://greece.org:8080/opencms/openc...chronlist.html

Apparently the hellenic genocide isn't QUITE over, but most of the ethnic greeks have already fled Turkey.





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Old 10-10-2007, 10:55 PM   #10
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Plenty of people have already recognized the Armenian genocide. In fact, 40 out of 50 states in the USA do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recogni...enian_Genocide


The Turks are refusing the word genocide because of nationalist pride. Genocide isn't something you want to add to your history books and let it hang over your head for the next few centuries. After all, they fear that it will somehow label them as mass murderers.

Then there's political reasons. They fear a wide recognition of the genocide could hamper their efforts to enter the European Union. Then again, racism against Muslims in Europe is enough to keep them out...

It could also mean that the Armenians would start asking for monetary and other such reparations. They would be right in some way.

Then again, name one country that hasn't committed such atrocities. You'll probably never find one.

In the end, Rob is right, it doesn't really matter as most people are smart enough to realize that it was done over 90 years ago.

I'd like to note too that Turkey is pretty much the most open Muslim country in the world (IMO). Great separation between church and state and women are quite free. In fact, the Turkish diaspora is more conservative then the people actually living in Turkey. Go figure.


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Old 10-13-2007, 08:48 PM   #11
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I think condemning Turkey for something that long ago is a complete waste of Congress' time. My tax dollars at work.


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Old 10-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I think condemning Turkey for something that long ago is a complete waste of Congress' time. My tax dollars at work.
But the Kurdish, Armenian, and Hellenic genocides are still ongoing to some extent, epecially given Turkey's generally not-so-good relations with Greece.





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Old 10-14-2007, 03:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I think condemning Turkey for something that long ago is a complete waste of Congress' time. My tax dollars at work.

It still has repercussions to this day though as Armenians still demand recognition from Turkey for the genocide. It has a lot of political impact even if the event is in the past.

After all, speaking and condemning such events can help prevent them in the future.


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Old 10-14-2007, 11:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt
But the Kurdish, Armenian, and Hellenic genocides are still ongoing to some extent, epecially given Turkey's generally not-so-good relations with Greece.
Well, then address that, instead of griping about something from last century.


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Old 10-15-2007, 12:53 AM   #15
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But it has a great meaning for the Armenian people. The most powerful country in the world recognizing that such an event occurred has a lot of meaning for them. The event carries great weight in their collective memory.


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Old 10-15-2007, 03:51 AM   #16
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As an ethnic Greek who had relatives who have had to move from Cyprus and Istanbul due to prevailing racist tendencies, I will refrain from a comment but I imagine you can understand how I feel about the issue .


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Old 10-15-2007, 03:58 AM   #17
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The timing of this bill is extremely suspect. As has been noted, the depradations in question took place decades ago. Why all the sudden interest? It's no coinkydink that the dems are behind it too. One more monkey wrench to complicate the problem that is Iraq.

I'm sure the Dali Lama and Tibetans might welcome a Congressional condemnation of the PRC. Or for that matter, pick any powerless groups in the world with a complaint and address those as well. The symbolism's mostly empty and somewhat self-serving, nevermind self defeating. Let Congress find something more pressing, like going after Limbaugh.


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Old 10-17-2007, 04:32 AM   #18
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Sticking to the truth and flaunting it in peoples faces just for the sake of upholding the truth is a bit stupid, in my opinion. If you had a friend who was ugly, would you tell them so just because it's the truth? Insulting people is generally considered a bad idea, I think, and this bill would be a slap in Turkey's face. I really hope it doesn't get passed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
I'd like to note too that Turkey is pretty much the most open Muslim country in the world (IMO). Great separation between church and state and women are quite free. In fact, the Turkish diaspora is more conservative then the people actually living in Turkey. Go figure.
Nationalism and anti-American sentiments are on the rise, though, and will only increase if this bill is passed.


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Old 10-17-2007, 05:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
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If you had a friend who was ugly, would you tell them so just because it's the truth?

It depends. If it's to help them evolve, sure. I know I've done it and I did help them evolve, not just slap it in their face.
If it's just for "fun", no.

And dude, it's what's on the inside that counts!

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Originally Posted by Serpentine
Nationalism and anti-American sentiments are on the rise, though, and will only increase if this bill is passed.
Nationalism has always been high, doesn't really matter. Anti-American sentiment will rise, but will it change into something concrete beyond protesting? I'm not certain.



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Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I'm sure the Dali Lama and Tibetans might welcome a Congressional condemnation of the PRC.
China is already pissed only at the idea of receiving with respect the Dalai Lama. Such a condemnation, if one is ever to pass, would be a huge political instrument for the Tibetans nationalists and their demands for more freedom. The impact of a condemnation of Turkey for the Armenian genocide would never have that kind of impact.



In the end, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter. I think the symbolism of such an act has great meaning and can help the process of healing the relations between the different factions involved over the long term. Granted the timing is more then strange. Other think it's an empty gesture that will only serve to bring Turkey-US relations to a new low.


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Old 10-17-2007, 09:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I think condemning Turkey for something that long ago is a complete waste of Congress' time. My tax dollars at work.
I am in agreement with that. It is something that is a part of history and I maintain still that history is written depending on point of view. History is written by the winners yes but there are always two sides to the same story. Turkey getting up in arms over the fact that we call the Armenian genocide for what it was a genocide is nothing but a petty issue. True that it may be a nationalist thing but if they stop and look at it, it is a complete waste of time.

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Old 10-18-2007, 02:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
It depends. If it's to help them evolve, sure. I know I've done it and I did help them evolve, not just slap it in their face.
If it's just for "fun", no.
How does that help them evolve? I'm not sure I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
And dude, it's what's on the inside that counts!
Yes, but if a good public image can save the relationship between two countries, isn't it worth something, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Nationalism has always been high, doesn't really matter. Anti-American sentiment will rise, but will it change into something concrete beyond protesting? I'm not certain. . . . Other think it's an empty gesture that will only serve to bring Turkey-US relations to a new low.
I suppose only time can tell...


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Old 10-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
Yes, but if a good public image can save the relationship between two countries, isn't it worth something, too?
Good public image means nothing if one or both sides are backed up like a stubborn mule. True it may be beneficial but when one is unwilling to compromise there really isn't a point. Again this whole issue is a petty concern that is going to drag our public image down the tubes. Yes we may be considered doing the "right" thing but there really is no point to it.

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Old 10-18-2007, 10:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
How does that help them evolve? I'm not sure I understand.

Help them use what they have to attract the opposite gender and not deluding into believing they're something they're not. And no, I don't look like a Greek god, I know my limits and I use them.

It's just realism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
Yes, but if a good public image can save the relationship between two countries, isn't it worth something, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster12
Again this whole issue is a petty concern that is going to drag our public image down the tubes. Yes we may be considered doing the "right" thing but there really is no point to it.
In Turkey maybe, but Armenia's and their diaspora are going to love you. It's, IMO, the right thing to do, but like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
I suppose only time can tell...
Well, that's for sure, but what can Turkey do to the US more then protest and get pissed? They'll alienate their relations with a behemoth if they do more then some protesting. Especially considering you want to join the EU and happen to be in NATO for nothing more then strategic reasons. North Atlantic indeed. Who's going to support them if not the US? Their neighbors? Being a non-religious Muslim country doesn't make you very popular among the Islamic world. Add to that their support for the US.

There's nothing in the short term beyond a cold. Hey people were predicting the end of all US-France good relations after the War in Iraq story. Now, the head of many international organizations are French and the US accepts them. The fire died and all is fine.


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Old 10-18-2007, 11:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeiamyourdad
Well, that's for sure, but what can Turkey do to the US more then protest and get pissed?
It's a bit more serious than that my friend. They could easily deny the United States access to their air bases and cripple the supply chain to Iraq. link

Meanwhile Turkey is ready recently passed a vote to launch a cross-border attack into Kurdistan to deal with PKK. link The U.S. has already inflamed relations with Turkey by bringing this bill before Congress and therefore calls for restraint are even more likely to go unheeded. The last thing the U.S. wants is further instability. Oil prices have been rising on the fears of a Turkish invasion. link

It may be the right thing to do, but the timing is terrible.
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Old 10-18-2007, 11:30 PM   #25
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It's a bit more serious than that my friend. They could easily deny the United States access to their air bases and cripple the supply chain to Iraq.
I have been reading something about Vladimir Putin and something came up in my mind.

In the domain of international relations, there's what you say, what you do and what you really think.

It sums up Vladimir Putin's relationship with the US quite well. The US wants to extend the anti-missile shield to Poland, Russia says it will point missiles. The US doesn't want Iran to have nuclear reactors, Russia says Iran should be allowed to have nuclear reactors. The US says white, Russia says black and says that America is trying to bully people.

Yet, Putin and Bush keep saying their relations are cordial and they're good friends. A majority of Russians were for the war in Iraq and supported, morally, the actions of the US government.

Funny eh?

Why mention Putin in something that doesn't have anything to do with him? Only as an illustration of differences between what is said, what is done and what they think of each other. Putin stands up to the US because it makes him look good in the eyes of the Russian population, it makes him look like a strong leader.

So I'm making a parallel with the Turkey situation. Turkey's friends are relatively few. They claim they'll stop the US from using their airbases. Will they actually do it or is it just a response to make them look good in the eyes of the Turks? After all, if they didn't say they would take action in reaction to the popular protests, those in power won't stay there for long. It makes those in power look like good leaders who won't bow to insults. However, taking concrete action to cripple the supply lines for Iraq might alienate one of their best allies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk102
Meanwhile Turkey is ready recently passed a vote to launch a cross-border attack into Kurdistan to deal with PKK. The U.S. has already inflamed relations with Turkey by bringing this bill before Congress and therefore calls for restraint are even more likely to go unheeded. The last thing the U.S. wants is further instability. Oil prices have been rising on the fears of a Turkish invasion.

It may be the right thing to do, but the timing is terrible.
Oil prices will soar if there's fear of a rat dying near a gas line. Oil prices fluctuate at such an insane rate based on paranoid tendencies. It changes nothing.

As for the attacks, we'll see what happens. The attacks haven't started yet and there is light at the end of this tunnel. There's the possibility of Iraq giving guarantees of dealing with the PKK themselves.


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Old 10-19-2007, 12:48 AM   #26
Totenkopf
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Well, as Yogi Bera used to say....it ain't over till it's over. Still, keep in mind that Turkey also closed out the option of a pincer attack on Iraq in 2003. So much for the "loyal ally" that wouldn't cause the US problems. I don't believe that they'll close it off it the end (at least for any great length of time), but don't dismiss the probability that they will use that as leverage for some kind of uncomfortable concession.


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Old 10-19-2007, 12:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Well, as Yogi Bera used to say....it ain't over till it's over. Still, keep in mind that Turkey also closed out the option of a pincer attack on Iraq in 2003. So much for the "loyal ally" that wouldn't cause the US problems. I don't believe that they'll close it off it the end (at least for any great length of time), but don't dismiss the probability that they will use that as leverage for some kind of uncomfortable concession.

Well, the pincer attack thing...well, loyal ally is one thing, being a yesman is another.

I do have to agree with you that it could be used as leverage. It's always a gamble really.


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