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Old 11-03-2007, 08:42 AM   #201
Ray Jones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Not killing exclusively. However, killing something that doesn't threaten you directly (swatting a fly, stepping on a bug) seems to fall under what you appear to be railing about: the cavalier and seemingly hypocritical treatment of God's/god's creatures b/c they fail to satisfy some arbitrary (from your pov anyway) assessment of the value of God's/god's "lesser" life forms.
You missed the point again. Forget the killing. It's one step before that.


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As this thread is about the nature of sin, it's not unfair to conclude that you were questioning a "a firm believer's" sense of sin via your cockroach example.
Yes, right direction.


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The underlying assumption w/in your challenge is the idea that all life is equal in value in God's/god's eyes, regardless of whatever your personal belief system is.
Correct.


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You imply that it may well matter to God/god, but then insist that it shouldn't/can't. Don't know what to make of that.
It matters to god how you think about his creatures, that's a small step before you going to treat any of them, and makes a difference. Hence the pure fact that one of his creatures ceased living cannot matter to him, at least regarding the aspect of sin.


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So, why assume that a God/god you don't believe in anyway would be offended that you kill/hurt/disrespect a cockroach simply b/c He/he created it?
It doesn't matter what I do believe or not. What matters is that if you tell me I will go to hell because I am a sinner because I don't believe in your god and that you are the one who's gonna be saved because you accepted god into your heart and god is your truth, that is plain controversial to any comment containing disrespectful statements about your god's work. It's not so much about god or any belief in the first place, but double standards, ignorance and presumptuousness, regardless if you see this from a religious point of view, or a scientific.


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Who's to say why such things were put here in the first place.
I think I am not. Are you? But that's basically the point. Who decides what's a "good" being, and what's a "bad" one? Which has a purpose, which not. Where do we draw the line? You cannot have a fully fledged (god made?) eco-system and then take out what you don't like to see.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
I don't see it as being a problem when you destroy a creature that invaded your territory. Just about every other predator on Earth does it.
Every creature, predator or not, which is "defending" its territory does not do this because it "thinks" that the other one is "worthless".



Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I respect creatures.
You know, respect does not just start where you not going to kill someone/something.


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But compared to humans, I wouldn't even think twice.
Fine. Me too. Again: not the point in question.


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Perhaps you could find that out before you go out trying to make us all look like sadistic hypocrites with your little rant....
Perhaps statements like "they're one hair above dirt" combined with "I believe in god, that he created everything and his word is teh law rana rana" make you look like hypocrites on your own. Maybe you could think about that. Imagine but one second what your god might think when you call his work use- and worthless. You all defend the principle of sin (which is also a creation of your god) or even the existence of Satan as necessary for free will to exist and so on, despite the fact that is causes so much suffering, but when it comes to a simple creature, also made by god, you go "Bah. Away with it!"


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Secondly, what would you do? Would you treat your brother better than an insect? If it was a choice, which would you choose? Would you choose one simply because the species has survived longer than the other?
Choose what? My brother over a cockroach when both lives are in danger? Come on. This is not about choosing. It's about that one cannot spout god's oh so true words upon everybody who thinks different, and how one must respect religion and whatnot, and at the same time talk disrespectful about any other of god's creatures! Is that a so difficult logic to follow?



Last edited by Ray Jones; 11-03-2007 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:50 PM   #202
RobQel-Droma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
You know, respect does not just start where you not going to kill someone/something.
I never knew....

Trust me, I have more respect than that. Do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Fine. Me too. Again: not the point in question.
Ah, we do agree on something. But you're right, that wasn't quite the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Perhaps statements like "they're one hair above dirt" combined with "I believe in god, that he created everything and his word is teh law rana rana" make you look like hypocrites on your own.
Did I ever say that I treated them as if they were one hair above dirt? No. (although, if you saw one in your home, would you be so sorry if you squashed it?) However, I did make the statement that one cockroach matters just a little bit above than dirt - and I did not use "dirt" because of some derogatory reason, I could have used rocks, or trees, or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Imagine but one second what your god might think when you call his work use- and worthless.
You seem to be referring to a statement that I can't recall making. Did I ever say cockroaches were useless/worthless? Er..... No. Everything has a place in the world, and a use. I firmly believe that. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
You all defend the principle of sin (which is also a creation of your god)
You haven't really read any of my posts, have you?

I have actually noticed that you pretty much respond to half my posts, and ignore all the rest, though. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue my view about sin when you don't even listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
or even the existence of Satan as necessary for free will to exist and so on, despite the fact that is causes so much suffering,
Again, we've already been over this, before we got on a little tangent here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
but when it comes to a simple creature, also made by god, you go "Bah. Away with it!"
Putting words in my mouth....

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Choose what? My brother over a cockroach when both lives are in danger? Come on. This is not about choosing.
Oh, no, I think it's very relevant. Are you actually going to answer the question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
It's about that one cannot spout god's oh so true words upon everybody who thinks different,
You know, I like how you work in all that sarcasm and stabs at religion in that one little paragraph. But that's not the point.

Before this thread, I don't think any of us were trying to "spout god's oh so true words upon everybody who thinks different" on you. Do you just have some mindset that religion is trying to impose its beliefs on yours? Seems to be some kind of problem on your end, because I certainly haven't done it. Are you kind of overly defensive about your views?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
and how one must respect religion and whatnot,
I don't recall saying that. Although, I would agree to the extent that you should give respect where respect is due. (kind of a Bible principle ) Which may not be in a religion, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
and at the same time talk disrespectful about any other of god's creatures! Is that a so difficult logic to follow?
You can't work both sides of the fence, Ray. You can't have "oh, you're a hypocrite, you disrespect God's creatures" and then say "god is immoral, he isn't doing things right, creatures have been evolving for millions of years and are just about equal to humans, etc." Your actual belief, I would think, would have nothing wrong with disrespecting creatures - which none of us have done, incidentally.

In fact, you have been disrespecting God in some of your posts, much less His creation. And, well, that's your choice. Nothing I can do about it. But I just wonder the idea of disrespecting the Creator and then calling other people out because you think they are disrespecting the Creation.

Again, humans were supposed to be the caretakers of the world, that's what the Bible says. That's pretty much my viewpoint on humans and animals; you seem to think that we're both equal, of course. Again, think of the rocks.... (wait - you did actually read that part of my post, right?)

Well, unless you have anything else directed to me, I'll be pretty much out of this discussion.
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Old 11-04-2007, 01:41 PM   #203
Ray Jones
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
(although, if you saw one in your home, would you be so sorry if you squashed it?)
By accident? Of course.


Quote:
However, I did make the statement that one cockroach matters just a little bit above than dirt - and I did not use "dirt" because of some derogatory reason, I could have used rocks, or trees, or whatever.

You seem to be referring to a statement that I can't recall making. Did I ever say cockroaches were useless/worthless? Er..... No. Everything has a place in the world, and a use. I firmly believe that. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, my friend.
But you actually choose to use the word dirt, however, and also added "they're just there". In fact you said:

"Neither can cockroaches affect the world in a good way - except for possible filling the food chain. And if they are in too great or too little numbers, it could go out of whack. Simply being powerless to do evil is a pretty weak argument to say that they are better. They are also powerless to do any kind of good.

So yes, they are sentient beings and God's creation, but if it was not for the latter ( and their place in the environment), you could say that they would be just a hair above dirt. They're just there.
"

in reply to: "Without intelligent minds they must be worth less than dirt huh?"

Which I think comes across quite "derogatory" especially when the context is already set to a 'worth of dirt'. And to put this shorter one could argue you think they are "useless" or "worthless".

No chance to chicken out.


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I have actually noticed that you pretty much respond to half my posts, and ignore all the rest, though.
OK, what point did you bring up that I have not or insufficiently answered?


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I'm not sure how I'm supposed to argue my view about sin when you don't even listen.
You have yet to show me that I didn't listen.


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Putting words in my mouth....
Really? I think I was more likely putting meaning to your words.


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Oh, no, I think it's very relevant. Are you actually going to answer the question?
I cannot see how it is relevant. But I surely will answer that question. Which one exactly?


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Before this thread, I don't think any of us were trying to "spout god's oh so true words upon everybody who thinks different" on you.

Do you just have some mindset that religion is trying to impose its beliefs on yours? Seems to be some kind of problem on your end, because I certainly haven't done it. Are you kind of overly defensive about your views?
Please, let's review the whole sentence, not just what you quoted and thus put it slightly out of context: "one cannot spout god's oh so true words upon everybody who thinks different, and how one must respect religion and whatnot, and at the same time talk disrespectful about any other of god's creatures"

I was in no way defending "my views", merely trying make my point clearer.


Quote:
In fact, you have been disrespecting God in some of your posts, much less His creation. And, well, that's your choice. Nothing I can do about it. But I just wonder the idea of disrespecting the Creator and then calling other people out because you think they are disrespecting the Creation.
Aah. Now you might see where I am coming from. *I* don't claim to be religious. *I* don't claim to follow god's word and see his word as law of all laws. *I* don't claim I respect him and have let him into my heart. But *you* do/did. And Corinthian does/did. Or am I wrong with that?

I might as well now stress once more what has been said: "duct taping cockroaches to tools" or "one hair above dirt".


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Old 11-04-2007, 01:47 PM   #204
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This is really off topic, you know.
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Old 11-04-2007, 05:36 PM   #205
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OK, enough with the cockroaches already.


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