lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Saddam didn't expect U.S. Invasion
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 01-25-2008, 11:46 PM   #1
JediAthos
Senior Member
 
JediAthos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,438
Current Game: Defiance
Forum Veteran Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Saddam didn't expect U.S. Invasion

I found this interesting little tidbit on both MSN and Yahoo today:

NEW YORK - Saddam Hussein allowed the world to believe he had weapons of mass destruction to deter rival Iran and did not think the United States would stage a major invasion, according to an FBI interrogator who questioned the Iraqi leader after his capture.

Saddam expected only a limited aerial attack by the United States and thought he could remain in control, the FBI special agent, George Piro, told CBS’s “60 Minutes” program in an interview to be broadcast Sunday.

“He told me he initially miscalculated ... President Bush’s intentions,” said Piro. “He thought the United States would retaliate with the same type of attack as we did in 1998 ... a four-day aerial attack.”

“He survived that one and he was willing to accept that type of attack,” Piro said.

In 2003, a close aide of Saddam's told The Associated Press that Saddam did not expect a U.S. invasion and deliberately kept the world guessing about his weapons program, although he already had gotten rid of it.

Keeping up the illusion of weapons program
Saddam publicly denied having unconventional weapons before the U.S. invasion, but prevented U.N. inspectors from working in the country from 1998 until 2002 and when they finally returned in November 2002, they often complained that Iraq wasn’t fully cooperating.

Piro, a Lebanese-American who speaks Arabic, debriefed Saddam after he was found in an underground hideout near his home city north of Baghdad in December 2003, nine months after the U.S. invasion.

Piro said Saddam also said that he wanted to keep up the illusion that he had the program in part because he thought it would deter a likely Iranian invasion.

“For him, it was critical that he was seen as still the strong, defiant Saddam. He thought that (faking having the weapons) would prevent the Iranians from reinvading Iraq,” Piro told Scott Pelley of “60 Minutes.”

Piro added that Saddam had the intention of restarting an Iraqi weapons program at the time, and had engineers available for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Kuwait invasion after insult to Iraqi women
Piro also mentioned Saddam’s revelation during questioning that what pushed him to invade Kuwait in 1990 was a dishonorable swipe at Iraqi women made by the Kuwaiti leader, Sheik Jaber Al Ahmed Al Sabah.

During the buildup to the invasion, Iraq had accused Kuwait of flooding the world market with oil and demanded compensation for oil produced from a disputed area on the border of the two countries.

Piro said that Al Sabah told the foreign minister of Iraq during a discussion aimed at resolving some of those conflicts that “he would not stop doing what he was doing until he turned every Iraqi woman into a $10 prostitute. And that really sealed it for him, to invade Kuwait,” said Piro.


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

JediAthos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 01:23 AM   #2
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
If he were still alive.....he could chalk it up to the law of unintended consequences.

$10 prostitutes, huh? Guess it's a good thing the guy didn't directly address SH's own mother.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 01:47 AM   #3
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

lol

As for the other stuff, I am not sure I quite understand what his (Saddam's) reasons were. Is that some sort of game that he was playing?! Not a very 'fun' game if you ask me.

Rev7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 01:48 AM   #4
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
$5 says this doesn't deter anyone from calling Bush a warmonger.
Corinthian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 01:57 AM   #5
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
hmmm, lots of people, IMO, still can't get over the fact that we have gone to war, and haven't been able to get out for some time now. Yes, I know that it affects many of our lives by being in the Middle East, and it has certainly affected mine becasue my brother was stationed there for some time. But that is for another thread.

Rev7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 04:40 AM   #6
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
$5 says this doesn't deter anyone from calling Bush a warmonger.

That sounds suspiciously like a sucker's bet.

@Rev-hope your bro gets through it intact and has no probs readjusting when he returns.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 04:46 AM   #7
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Paypal stands ready, but I've got until this thread reaches Page 2, by which time True_Avery, Achilles, and every other Bush-hater under the bloody sun will have posted in this thread. Good luck.
Corinthian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 05:09 AM   #8
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
I mean that anyone taking your bet would have to be a sucker for the reasons you mentioned.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 07:25 AM   #9
mur'phon
Whale eating vegetarian
 
mur'phon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southier than thou
Posts: 1,537
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
says this doesn't deter anyone from calling Bush a warmonger
So because Saddam wanted the world to believe he had WMD's, Bush should loose his status as warmonger in chief?


Checking out seems not to do much.
mur'phon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 10:24 AM   #10
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Well.......looks like you didn't even make it to the second page w/o a complaint.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 11:50 AM   #11
mur'phon
Whale eating vegetarian
 
mur'phon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southier than thou
Posts: 1,537
Forum Veteran 
Just defending the local jerks money, no need to thank me


Checking out seems not to do much.
mur'phon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 01:14 PM   #12
SilentScope001
May The Force Serve You.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
So because Saddam wanted the world to believe he had WMD's, Bush should loose his status as warmonger in chief?
There is NO EVIDENCE the FBI Agent is correct. No evidence whatsoever. Besides, he's from the FBI! FBI agents are paid to lie about their recent investigations, so he could be lying! LYING, I tell ya! It's all part of the MSM conspriacy to make Saddam look like a hero by lying about WMDs to deter an Iranian invasion when he really had them hiding in Flordia!!1!

The title didn't really interest me, but the actual text of the article did. Eh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
SilentScope001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 04:34 PM   #13
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
$5 says this doesn't deter anyone from calling Bush a warmonger.
Which would be MORE correct now since if the CIA couldn't figure this stuff out, we need to fire them all.

Somehow, I'm not surprised at the news though. It's a rather sound strategy.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 04:55 PM   #14
John Galt
Junior Member
 
John Galt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Galt's Gulch
Posts: 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Paypal stands ready, but I've got until this thread reaches Page 2, by which time True_Avery, Achilles, and every other Bush-hater under the bloody sun will have posted in this thread. Good luck.
I don't particularly hate bush, but I can't help feeling betrayed after he flagrantly discarded his campaign promises. He said that he would pursue "a more humble foreign policy," which is something we need. Now we are being alienated more and more from the rest of the "free" world daily. He also said he would downsize government, yet he presided over the largest increase in the size of government in recent history.

He was rather charismatic during his first presidential run, but I think most of that is gone now. I've only seen him once, and that was at a good distance. He was walking across the lawn of the White House and playing with the scottie dog. I waved at the sniper on top of the white house.





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse
John Galt is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 05:03 PM   #15
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
Too late, Kids, Mur'phon blew it for you. Good job, Mur.
Corinthian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-26-2008, 05:18 PM   #16
Rev7
I'm a Mage
 
Rev7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,208
Current Game: CoD 5 WaW; Skate 2
Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
@Rev-hope your bro gets through it intact and has no probs readjusting when he returns.
Thanks, actually he has been in the states for eh...maybe coming up on four months. He had been stationed in Iraq several years ago, and came back, went back, then just recently came back after being stationed there for about a month, because he was suffering from Post dramatic stress, but he is doing just fine know!

Rev7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-27-2008, 12:37 AM   #17
Web Rider
Senior Member
 
Web Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: here
Posts: 1,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Too late, Kids, Mur'phon blew it for you. Good job, Mur.
Awww, you're cute, you can be condescending. Lets see....what was I thinking....oh yeah, nobody really cares.

Fact is: intelligence says Saddam DIDNT have WMDs since after the whole first gulf war deal. Bush said he did. Went to war with a guy who was playing cold war with Iran, which means actual, valid, correct intelligence was ignored in favor of playing soldier.

Bush wants to go fight on the front? Be my guest, but don't go get my friends and family killed over BS.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

"Nobody's talking about extermination. No one ever does. They just do it." - Magneto

"Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice, unless you get a good percentage of her price."
Web Rider is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-27-2008, 06:03 AM   #18
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Actually, perhaps we should bring all our soldiers home from *everywhere* and put them on the US/Mexican border. Mexico would make a stink, but who the hell cares. Afterall, anyone look at Mexico's southern border policies? The added benefit might be that other nations would have to increase their own defense budgets to protect their own interests, thus giving us some relief on the economic front. If we were completely autarkical, it might make for an interesting "experiment".

@Rev--does he talk much about it to you? How does he feel about the whole thing, being as how he's put in the meatgrinder? Outside of the code pink wackos and their like minded compatriots, how does he feel about the level of support he sees at home for what they are doing?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 02:35 PM   #19
John Galt
Junior Member
 
John Galt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Galt's Gulch
Posts: 474
[QUOTE=Totenkopf]Actually, perhaps we should bring all our soldiers home from *everywhere* and put them on the US/Mexican border. Mexico would make a stink, but who the hell cares. Afterall, anyone look at Mexico's southern border policies? The added benefit might be that other nations would have to increase their own defense budgets to protect their own interests, thus giving us some relief on the economic front. If we were completely autarkical, it might make for an interesting "experiment".
[QUOTE]

That's exactly what I've been saying. That IS the traditional function of the US army. I mean, remember where John Pershing was literally the month before he was appointed to lead America's first expedition to Europe? Down on the border, chasing Villa.

Besides, think of all the money we'd save from not having to supply and keep up all those bases in those 130+ countries...





Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. -Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und Böse

Last edited by John Galt; 01-28-2008 at 02:36 PM. Reason: fix0r'd teh quote
John Galt is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 10:07 PM   #20
RobQel-Droma
Blah
 
RobQel-Droma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Up yours. X0
Posts: 2,216
Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
Fact is: intelligence says Saddam DIDNT have WMDs since after the whole first gulf war deal. Bush said he did. Went to war with a guy who was playing cold war with Iran, which means actual, valid, correct intelligence was ignored in favor of playing soldier.

Bush wants to go fight on the front? Be my guest, but don't go get my friends and family killed over BS.
It wasn't just Bush, dude. A lot of people believed Saddam had WMDs. Even some of today's prominent democrats that love to bash Bush right and left about Iraq.

And besides, there was reasonable enough suspicion to think that he might have them, or be developing them. Let's see: he's had them before, he's used them before, he's resisted calls for him to stop his weapon's programs and acted like he wasn't doing anything...... guess we should just wait until Saddam does his own 9/11?
RobQel-Droma is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 10:28 PM   #21
Corinthian
Banned
 
Corinthian's Avatar
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,165
What? Web Rider, all the intelligence said he had WMDs. Logic said he had WMDs. Common sense said he had WMDs. But what we didn't count on was deliberate disinformation by Hussein himself.
Corinthian is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 11:03 PM   #22
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Realistically, what happened was Saddam expected the US to be a toothless tiger. He was wrong.

Try this experiment at home kids(please don't, doing so could cause death or serious injury):
Tell your neighbor that you intend to blow him up. Pretend to be making a bomb to do it. Then when the police try to come in to verify, tell them they can't search the whole house, only narrowly defined areas. What's gonna happen? My guess is you go to jail, or if you hold out long enough, not make it to jail.

That is basically what Saddam did, and he got caught. He could have saved a lot of lives(and maybe even his own) by surrendering when the invasion started and allowing inspectors back in. But he didn't.
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 11:16 PM   #23
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
All the released intelligence did say Saddam had WMDs, even the intelligence the U.S. Government decided to make up said Saddam had WMDs or was trying to get WMDs. Even when the CIA got it right, they were quoted incorrectly by the White House (see Valerie Plame).

We seemed to believe every shred of evidence that said Saddam had WMDs no matter the source (Like the source for the bioweapon labs mounted on trucks that came from an Iraqi defector that the Defense Intelligence Agency had all ready discredited labeling him an “a liar and a fabricator”. The Defense Intelligence Agency’s label of the source of this information was not shared with Colin Powell by the CIA for some unknown reason). Yet we dismissed all creditable evidence that Saddam did not have WMDs that was coming from the people on the ground such as the U.N. Weapons Inspectors and our own Directorate of Central Intelligence Nonproliferation Center.



Last edited by mimartin; 01-28-2008 at 11:48 PM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-28-2008, 11:22 PM   #24
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
^^^^
comments not conforming to generally accepted rhetoric will be ignored
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-29-2008, 07:23 AM   #25
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
^^^ Yeah, regardless of the type of rhetoric (left/right/lib/cons/ad nauseam...). Most people have a tendency to believe their own spin and "commonly accepted rhetoric" over that of others.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-29-2008, 08:14 PM   #26
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,052
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Most people have a tendency to believe their own spin and "commonly accepted rhetoric" over that of others.
Well who can blame anyone when we were spun into a war under false pretenses? We still do not know the truth of the matter because the people that spun us into this war still control all the information. They decide what needs to be classified and what is to be released.

I found this on FoxNews website, but I went to the original source, as we all know how they get a little confused with their facts (Mass Effect).

Study "The War Card" Orchestrated Deception on the Path to War

Key False Statements

They actually give the Bibliography and the Methodology they used to determine the false statements.

Of course, these “so-called” investigative journalists are probably just spinning the issue. Perhaps Fox News will do their own investigation with the help of townhall.com. Then perhaps we can get to the truth.



Last edited by mimartin; 01-29-2008 at 08:24 PM.
mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 01:53 AM   #27
El Sitherino
The Original.
 
El Sitherino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Funkālnite.
Posts: 14,509
Hot Topic Starter LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
all the intelligence said he had WMDs.
Wrong.

There was plenty of intelligence that also stated much the opposite.

Quote:
Logic said he had WMDs.
****ing wrong.

What formula did you use to conclude that Saddam has WMD's?
I'd really love to see how this was a "logical conclusion", because to me you can't just say "You know, I looked at this chart of evils causing bad things to happen to the world America. And my logical conclusion point was Iraq. IT MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD!"

Quote:
Common sense said he had WMDs.
Mother ****ing wrong.

Common sense says a lot of things. Fire = hot, water = wet, Vader = awesome. It however does not say "You know, Saddam has a mustache, much like Hitler and Castro, common sense dictates he must be evil and therefore has weapons of mass destruction."

Quote:
But what we didn't count on was deliberate disinformation by Hussein himself.
Alright. And what's your point? Should people have called us out during the Cold War?


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
El Sitherino is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 07:02 AM   #28
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,578
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Actually the intelligence reports suggested that he might have been working on a WMD program. There was no evidence that he had any WMD's but there was evidence that he had a program that suggested he was working on them. Which strangely enough was just what he wanted the Iranians to think, but that ended up backfiring on him. Those same deception programs worked too well and convinced the wrong people. So yes logic dictated that he had a WMD program, because he wanted it to look like he had a WMD program.

And ES, we did get called out during the cold war. It just never escalated to full on nuclear war, nor a full scale invasion of the US. That was primarily due to us not walking away from the negotiating table
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 09:16 AM   #29
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Well who can blame anyone when we were spun into a war under false pretenses? We still do not know the truth of the matter because the people that spun us into this war still control all the information. They decide what needs to be classified and what is to be released...
Well, I was only really addressing his point about rhetoric. But the whole thing does raise an interesting point about intelligence gathering and handling in general. To what effect do biases and agendas come into play and how can you really determine who's telling the truth/giving most sound advice on the info available? If side A is "rushing to war" and side B wants to hang back at any/all costs, who is the policy maker supposed to believe? More importantly, what if there is a time constraint in making that assessment. Setting Iraq aside, we live in an age of increasingly devastating weapons that can be delivered to targets via multiple vectors and agents. It used to be you wait for the enemy to attack you (making it easier to rally your population behind a decision to retaliate), but how viable is that strategy now, when an attack can take out 1000s/mils in a single act? Yes, preemption is truly a tricky affair.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 09:39 AM   #30
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,912
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
I don't think we're ever going to know the truth. It looks like he was at least working on developing WMDs if not actually having them, and if he just wanted to keep up appearances, Saddam did a darn good job. He'd already attacked several villages with nerve gas and had tossed some SCUDs at Israel in the first war. It's not hard to extrapolate a possible WMD program when you see both nerve gas usage and short-range missiles. He certainly had capability to create chemical WMDs and possibly biological. Whether he had the capability to create enough radioactive materials to create a nuclear or even 'dirty' bomb, and long range missiles, is another question.

Saddam's assumption that we wouldn't attack is, I think, another symptom of his megalomania--'They wouldn't dare do that to _me_!' This article doesn't tell me about his WMD intentions so much as it just confirms his personality type.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 03:47 PM   #31
SilentScope001
May The Force Serve You.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Yeah, regardless of the type of rhetoric (left/right/lib/cons/ad nauseam...). Most people have a tendency to believe their own spin and "commonly accepted rhetoric" over that of others.
QFT. If only if people actually believed in my totally correct spin and not in the spin of my enemy...then the world would be a better place.

Quote:
It used to be you wait for the enemy to attack you (making it easier to rally your population behind a decision to retaliate), but how viable is that strategy now, when an attack can take out 1000s/mils in a single act? Yes, preemption is truly a tricky affair.
You can always try to find new ways to complete old objectives. Instead of launching the military invasion of Iraq, why not back terrorist attacks and military coups to overthrow Saddam? Or bribe Saddam to 'disband' his WMD program? You DON'T have to invade Iraq anymore, look at how we handled North Korea.

It just takes forever, that's all. And I think the peaceniks and the war hawks hate waiting endlessly in a perpetual quantum state between life and death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
SilentScope001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 01-30-2008, 03:49 PM   #32
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
But a world of one could be a very lonely place.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Saddam didn't expect U.S. Invasion

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:29 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.