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Old 02-04-2008, 01:19 PM   #1
SilentScope001
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The Religious Left? (aka Achilles' Triumph)

This is assuming that Achilles is a Republican (as I think he mentioned some pro-republican policies and stated that he registered as a Republican). If he is in fact a Democrat, then call this "Achilles' Worst Nightmare".

Will Huckabee's campaign encourage evangelicals to vote for a Democrat?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0204/p09s02-coop.html

The "Religious Left" is finally arising, and the "Religious Right" may be dying. This means Evangalists are fleeing to the Democrats, leaving a pure and secularized GOP. As I say, Achilles' Trimpuh, as it means that he can fully support the Republican Party without fear of religious extermists praying for the destruction of the welfare state (now they are for it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:35 PM   #2
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The Religious Left? What the hell is that? What exactly do they stand for? Let's face it, any religious issue tends to be championed by the Right. Gay Marriage? Abortion? The day the Liberals start condemning those is that we get the directions mixed.
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:41 PM   #3
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They are basically outfits like the United Council of Churches and such that support policies more befitting of people on the left side of the political aisle. People who bought/buy into Liberation Theology also fit into this category. There are no doubt countless others. Maybe wiki has an entry, who knows (ie I'm not checking).....


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Old 02-04-2008, 02:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
The Religious Left? What the hell is that? What exactly do they stand for? Let's face it, any religious issue tends to be championed by the Right. Gay Marriage? Abortion?
Not all religious issues are championed by the Right. Not being judgmental of others, “Judge not lest ye be judged,” is not a very right political hot button. It seems to be the opposite just looking at the two examples you have given. “But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." I don’t know but the Bible really goes in depth about the poor, even saying, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys,” I did not think welfare was an important part of the right’s platform. I guess I could be wrong.

So in these two examples I disagree with you Corinthian, I’m a religious person and I plan on voting for the candidate on the Democratic side, be it Clinton or Obama, to some extent because of my religious beliefs. I don’t like of the act of Abortion, but I find it more distasteful for a living breathing human to suffer because they do not have enough to eat or because they cannot afford medical care. As to your other example Gay Marriage, again that is a non-issue to me, as I don’t see where it is my job to judge anyone, but myself.

So yes, I can see the Religious Left, but I do not see them making a difference in any elections as they usual decided what issues are important to their own selves instead of letting the person in the bully pulpit tell them what the important issues are.


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Old 02-04-2008, 02:58 PM   #5
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The Religious Left? What the hell is that? What exactly do they stand for? Let's face it, any religious issue tends to be championed by the Right. Gay Marriage? Abortion? The day the Liberals start condemning those is that we get the directions mixed.
See mimartin for an example of a Religious Leftist person.

But, really, what does "abortion is wrong" have anything to do with "we must resist the evils of socialized health care"? Not much to be honest. Fusionism is unstable, and really werid.

Quote:
So in these two examples I disagree with you Corinthian, I’m a religious person and I plan on voting for the candidate on the Democratic side, be it Clinton or Obama, to some extent because of my religious beliefs. I don’t like of the act of Abortion, but I find it more distasteful for a living breathing human to suffer because they do not have enough to eat or because they cannot afford medical care.
Would you however vote for a person who would provide health care and ban abortion at the exact same time?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 02-04-2008, 03:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
Would you however vote for a person who would provide health care and ban abortion at the exact same time?
I don't know. I don't like the ideal of forcing my religious beliefs down the throats of others. Now when they are able to remove the fetus and grow it outside the womb by artificial means, then I will be all for banning abortion.


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Old 02-04-2008, 03:17 PM   #7
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Well, since he said he had contributed to the Obama campaign in the thread about the primaries (iirc), this whole thing may be moot. I share a lot of the same religious views as the 'Religious Right', but the Presidency is not a religious job. I vote for the person I think will do the best job in that office. If it's a Dem, fine. If it's a Rep, fine. I think it's foolish for anyone to vote for Pres solely on whether or not the candidate is religious, or to vote on the basis of any single issue for that matter. The President has to deal with so many different policies and issues that it's essential this person be proficient in handling as wide a variety of these as possible.


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Old 02-04-2008, 04:51 PM   #8
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One thing is pretty much for certain......achilles wouldn't vote republican b/c he views them as basically controlled by the religious right, something that is anathema to him.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 02-05-2008, 10:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
The Religious Left? What the hell is that? What exactly do they stand for? Let's face it, any religious issue tends to be championed by the Right. Gay Marriage? Abortion? The day the Liberals start condemning those is that we get the directions mixed.
What about upholding the rights of the elderly, the sick and the weak?

As for Achilles, I would guess his politics was based more in pragmatism than in dogma.



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Old 02-06-2008, 12:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious
What about upholding the rights of the elderly, the sick and the weak?
God helps he who helps himself.

Actually it is really quite simple. As a republican, I am against the government doing the job of churches. JUST as I'm against the churches dictating how the government should do it's job.

Of course I'm probably more libertarian than anything. But I prefer to be able to vote in the primaries.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I vote for the person I think will do the best job in that office. If it's a Dem, fine. If it's a Rep, fine. I think it's foolish for anyone to vote for Pres solely on whether or not the candidate is religious, or to vote on the basis of any single issue for that matter.
In a perfect world this would be true.

Too bad this doesn't apply to reality in any way. If an Atheist, Muslim or even Hindu would run for president they would never be elected solely on the basis of their religion or lack of it.

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Old 02-06-2008, 10:36 AM   #12
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They said the same thing about Catholics before JFK was elected, and there was a fairly big bias against them then. It's more about position than anything else. Right now it would be an extremely tough sell for a muslim to try to run for any office outside of places like Dearborn MI or any predominantly ethnic district. And, while I wouldn't have a problem voting for someone of a different gender, race or faith, they'd still have to be sufficiently representative of my values to get that vote. You might want to extend your list to Mormons as well (unless Romney pulls an upset vs McCain).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
God helps he who helps himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 25
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
...You were saying?



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Old 02-07-2008, 08:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I don't like the ideal of forcing my religious beliefs down the throats of others. Now when they are able to remove the fetus and grow it outside the womb by artificial means, then I will be all for banning abortion.
I didn't know that making it illegal for someone to murder an innocent being was forcing religious beliefs down their throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I did not think welfare was an important part of the right’s platform.
That's primarily because me (and others) don't believe in giving lazy people money so they don't have to work. Not that the idea of welfare is bad, but I think it is abused so much. If that's your definition

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Not being judgmental of others, “Judge not lest ye be judged,” is not a very right political hot button.
*cough* It's not a political hot button to anyone. Not even the Left, either, unless you want to tell me that they somehow don't judge anyone.

Secondly, not judging people does not mean that you let them be whoever they are. If a man had murdered twenty people, and I was of the opinion that he should be thrown in prison, would you tell me that I violated the teachings of the Bible by "judging" him? "Not judging" doesn't equal "total tolerance", at least the way you seem to put it.

(Don't get me wrong, I understand what you mean about judging yourself and not judging others - I think that's a great Christ-like way to live)
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I didn't know that making it illegal for someone to murder an innocent being was forcing religious beliefs down their throat.
I think this argument would get a lot more support if someone could offer a rational argument for why fetuses should be considered "beings". After that, we can begin having similarly rational discussion about what rights these "beings" have and how they relate to other beings, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
That's primarily because me (and others) don't believe in giving lazy people money so they don't have to work. Not that the idea of welfare is bad, but I think it is abused so much. If that's your definition
No doubt that your generalization fits some measurable percentage of welfare recipients, but even you seem willing to concede that it doesn't apply to everyone. Perhaps we'd be better off spending our time trying to figure out how to make sure the people that legitimately need help get it rather than categorically vilifying welfare and its recipients?
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
I didn't know that making it illegal for someone to murder an innocent being was forcing religious beliefs down their throat.
Is there proof when life begins now? What if my religious beliefs state life begins at birth. Then would my religious beliefs forced down others throats make it morally correct to have an abortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
That's primarily because me (and others) don't believe in giving lazy people money so they don't have to work. Not that the idea of welfare is bad, but I think it is abused so much. If that's your definition
I actually believe those that can work should, but not everyone on the welfare rolls are ripping off the system. Some are not fortunate enough to have the ability to work and some are even children. So are you are saying we should allow every fetus to grow into a child and then allow those that parents do not have the means to feed the child to starve to death?

Personally, I believe we should stop welfare fraud and then do away with corporate welfare to save money in the budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
*cough* It's not a political hot button to anyone. Not even the Left, either, unless you want to tell me that they somehow don't judge anyone.
It isn't? For some reason I thought gay marriage and “family values” were important topics to the right. I’ve read something about wanting a constitutional amendment to protect the sanity of marriage. Sounds a like a political “hot button” of judging others to me in order stir up the masses. Or are amendments to the Constitution common place now?

I am not saying people cannot legally judge someone that comments a crime. I’m saying it is not my place to judge someone that may not live their life to the same code of conduct I do. People have different religious and moral beliefs, but society’s laws must be obeyed.



Last edited by mimartin; 02-08-2008 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:47 PM   #17
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Problem is, that is exactly what the law is all about. We make laws to decide/judge what kinds of behavior people can indulge in w/o violating "acceptable norms". By labeling someone a con/excon, society has already passed a moral judgement on someone else's lifestyle choices.


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Old 02-08-2008, 12:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Problem is, that is exactly what the law is all about. We make laws to decide/judge what kinds of behavior people can indulge in w/o violating "acceptable norms". By labeling someone a con/excon, society has already passed a moral judgement on someone else's lifestyle choices.
I do not see it as being the same. To me a criminal has labeled himself or herself by committing the crime against society. Where as someone that uses God’s name in vain or cheats on his wife has not committed a crime against society. Who I am to judge that person even though I would never do such a thing? Are they going to judge me because I play video games or because I leave my family every weekend during football season?

Republicans say they stand for smaller government, yet Republican lawmakers find it necessary to attempt to legislate morality thus making the government larger and more involved in our everyday lives. What happens after they pass a constitutional amendment against gay marriage (something that is not recognized in most states already)? Will we then pass a constitutional amendment saying atheist must attend church?


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Old 02-08-2008, 05:01 AM   #19
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Well, we Republicans are also planning to ship you all off in airplanes refitted as spacecraft to a distant solar system where we'll pile you up around volcanoes and then drop thermonuclear weaponry into them and kill you all. After that, we'll collect your souls, make them watch propaganda films for a couple hundred years, and then reconstitute you at about a 5:1 Soul to Body ratio.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:31 AM   #20
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It is the same, yet different, different, yet the same. Regardless of whether a felon has commited a breach of "community ethics" or not, it is he who is labled by the group, not the other way around. The intent of the label is to set that person apart from the group as a form of punishment. Most people who are inclined to do "evil" things often try to do them on the sly (if premeditated), thus suggesting that they do not wished to be found out/labeled by the rest of us as deficient. We are always judging others, even we we do not wish to be seen as doing so. That person is dishonest (tells little lies, cheats at cards/games), a whore, a gossip, boring, etc.. We must always exercise some degree of judgement to get through life, or we'd perish/be exploited with relative ease. To your two examples, they are nonsequitor. Why not just say maybe we would pass a law that says people can not have sex outside of marriage or that all people must become practicing christians. But, even if the first were passed, what then? It would only codify the current status quo and not really get the goverenment any more deeply involved than at current rate. It wouldn't prevent gays from cohabitating, so there'd be no egregious erosion of privacy than arguable exists currently. Frankly, both sides legislate morality (or attempt to, anyway). Hate speech laws and hate crime bills are just but a blatant example of "liberal democrat" attempts to get government deeper into your life. CA's decision to put remotely controlled heat sensors in people's homes is also another example (and as goes CA, eventually the rest of America, or so it's said). It can even be argued that sex ed programs in schools are yet another attempt to impose "secular morals" on people. And no matter where you come down on the issue of homosexuality, it's still a subject that divides the religious from secularists, but the latter is winning in the public arena through programs and laws that attempt to "normalize" it in schools and in law. Who's imposing whose morality?

Honestly, the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged" quote is often twisted out of context. I doesn't appear to mean that you should never judge someone as lacking or deficient, but rather that you shouldn't see yourself as inherently any better than anyone else (in this case in the eyes of God). My guess is that it's a variation on "Do unto other's as you'd have them do unto you".


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:05 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
It would only codify the current status quo and not really get the goverenment any more deeply involved than at current rate.
Then why pass an amendment to the Constitution that does nothing? Sounds like a complete waste of time to me. Doesn’t the Government have more important issues to tackle than something that really is a state issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
It can even be argued that sex ed programs in schools are yet another attempt to impose "secular morals" on people.
I would say that was true, before HIV. Now I would call it a health issue. People die without sex education, yet even those uneducated in safe sex still have sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Honestly, the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged" quote is often twisted out of context. I doesn't appear to mean that you should never judge someone as lacking or deficient, but rather that you shouldn't see yourself as inherently any better than anyone else (in this case in the eyes of God). My guess is that it's a variation on "Do unto other's as you'd have them do unto you".
Are you saying the Bible is full of contradictions?


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Old 02-08-2008, 10:16 AM   #22
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Yeah, because STDs and STIs didn't exist before HIV...nobody ever died of Syphilis, did they?
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:04 AM   #23
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Yeah, because STDs and STIs didn't exist before HIV...nobody ever died of Syphilis, did they?
25 million have died of HIV since 1981.

2.1 million died of HIV in 2007 alone.

Syphilis is treatable for the most part.

That said you are correct all the more reason for sex education in order to give people the tools needed to prevent preventable STDs. Thanks.


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Old 02-08-2008, 02:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
25 million have died of HIV since 1981.

2.1 million died of HIV in 2007 alone.

Syphilis is treatable for the most part.

That said you are correct all the more reason for sex education in order to give people the tools needed to prevent preventable STDs. Thanks.
Just tell them not to have sex. Problem solved!

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Old 02-08-2008, 03:23 PM   #25
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
No doubt that your generalization fits some measurable percentage of welfare recipients, but even you seem willing to concede that it doesn't apply to everyone. Perhaps we'd be better off spending our time trying to figure out how to make sure the people that legitimately need help get it rather than categorically vilifying welfare and its recipients?
Agreed. I see plenty of people who really need help--people who've lost jobs due to downsizing, people who've had catastrophic injuries or illnesses, had the breadwinner of the family die, etc. I'm fine with welfare as a safety net. I also see abuse in the system. It's not common but it happens with more frequency than I like, given that the abusers are taking my tax dollars. I only see token efforts to stop the abuse, but getting rid of welfare to get rid of abuse would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

@mimartin--I believe there is no sanity of marriage. Just ask Jimbo.


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Old 02-08-2008, 03:26 PM   #26
Totenkopf
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Do not theocracies claim to be making laws, in the name of God/gods, aimed at controlling behaviors? "Don't do this. Why? B/c it's bad and can lead to other problems." Perhaps we can solve the prison crisis in this country by teaching felons how to avoid getting caught. That's the same basic approach used to sex in secular thinking. I mean, they're going to do it anyway, right? So, let's decriminalize/remove the stigma from certain things so that the people engaging in these behaviors are less traumatized or at least don't suffer too egregiously from their arguably bad decisions. We say we want to curb pregnancies and stds, but then proceed to give children (at increasingly younger ages) the knowledge to engage in certain activities and a sort of *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* message to confuse them. It's bad, but it feels soooo good, so why don't you take these prophylactic items and try to mitigate any problems that could pop up. Then you wonder why kids are experimenting at younger and younger ages in apparently increasing numbers, nevermind that they might not use their new found "knowledge" in the heat of passion (or as in the young homosexual community, disregard "safe sex" techniques altogether) or a drunken/drug induced stupor. I agree with Prime that it's not simply enough to go "I told them don't do it, problem solved" (life should be so simple ). But mixed messages are no less inefficient at changing behaviors.

It's no less true after HIV, either, as Corinthian pointed out. Given that your statistics are global and not merely only the US, so what? By which I mean, more people die from malaria and other self inflicted wounds (heart disease,etc). Hardly a crisis. The AIDS scare in America (like the stats on homeless, uinsured, abortions, global warming) is based on tissues of lies and distortions aimed at getting a certain policy in place to benefit its proponents. When these groups are "outed" on their "disinfo" campaigns, they fall back on arguing that their motives are/were "pure" or that you're quibbling over numbers and attempt to demonize their critics.

As to the Bible, isn't that a charge that's been laid for time immemorial? Are you asserting the Bible is free of ANY contradictions?

Actually, I didn't say such an amendment does nothing. It would actually serve to back up existing law at the state level. Just another buttress in the legal infrastructure. What it wouldn't do is make anything significantly (at all?) more intrusive than the framework already in
place.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 02-08-2008, 03:50 PM   #27
mimartin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
The AIDS scare in America (like the stats on homeless, uinsured, abortions, global warming) is based on tissues of lies and distortions aimed at getting a certain policy in place to benefit its proponents. When these groups are "outed" on their "disinfo" campaigns, they fall back on arguing that their motives are/were "pure" or that you're quibbling over numbers and attempt to demonize their critics.
I will be sure to tell my best friend since 6th grade that his father death was a lie and has been distorted. A good man who raised three wonderful children that grew into well adjusted members of society. He was married to the same woman for thirty five years and I would stake my life on that he never cheated in any way on her. It took forever for them to figure out that he had AIDS because his lifestyle made that impossible. However, he did die of that disease, but I will tell the family that is not the case and they can get rid of the stigma associated with a HIV death in their family.

America as of 2005 – 550,394 death contributed to HIV.
Number of Americans diagnosed with HIV (2005) – 988,376

I guess those number are not that big unless one of them is someone you care about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
@mimartin--I believe there is no sanity of marriage. Just ask Jimbo.
LOL Thanks, I needed that laugh today.



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Old 02-08-2008, 05:32 PM   #28
SilentScope001
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Then why pass an amendment to the Constitution that does nothing? Sounds like a complete waste of time to me. Doesn’t the Government have more important issues to tackle than something that really is a state issue?
The government only does what the people want. If the people want the government to interfere in choosing favorite colors, man, that what the government should do should.

Anyway, it is really the pro-gay marriage folks who need an amendment allowing for gay marriage. Without such an amendment, all states will just prohibit it. This entire issue is really about "tax credits" and "feel-good backing from the state", nothing more, nothing less. Honestly, I would prefer the government abolish marriage entirely and not give these tax breaks, but I know that would make some people rather upset.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:24 PM   #29
Totenkopf
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@mimartin--one death is tragic, a million a statistic. While I appreciate that these things can be emotional, that doesn't change the facts. The big problem is we were threatened with a looming crisis of seeming immeasuable magnitude almost 30 years ago. It never panned out like they portrayed it. Luck or manipulation? The fact that someone may contract the disease from other than the usual vectors (promiscuity and iv drug use), while tragic, doesn't elevate the problem to crisis proportions (except, naturally, at the individual level). I'm not saiying HIV is imaginary, merely that the reported scope of the problem was exagerated for purposes of social policy making. Much like with the current "global warming/climate change" scare. Sorry for your friend's loss. Btw, did they ever conclude how he might have gotten it? Tainted blood, at a dentist's office, hospital, etc..?

@silentscope--why not just ban the tax breaks period? I've heard of the marriage penalty, but what's the marriage tax break?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:05 PM   #30
SilentScope001
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Quote:
@silentscope--why not just ban the tax breaks period? I've heard of the marriage penalty, but what's the marriage tax break?
This article explains the benieft of marriage. There are also discussions about creating an actual tax break for marriage, in order to encourage them. The previous article only talks about how society rewards marriage.

Great Britian also has a tax break for married couples too.

(The opposition to marriage stems from an argument that the state shouldn't promote anything religious, and since marriage is a religious insitution and the state is promoting marriage, the state is promoting religion, which may be seen as against the 1st Amendment (Congress shouldn't promote or go against any religious tradition). Therefore, the state should ban marriage. That's how I see it, and I do accept that sort of belief. Personally, I'd be fine with just getting rid of the tax breaks myself, but the political fallout would be too high.

It might be (a bit) easier to get rid of marriage entirely, but of course, the movement to ban marriage isn't too serious to threaten moral character.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Onion
"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
Full Article Here
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:34 PM   #31
mimartin
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Quote:
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Btw, did they ever conclude how he might have gotten it? Tainted blood, at a dentist's office, hospital, etc..?
It was tainted blood, it happened back when the government was fighting so hard to prevent blood from being tested because it would bankrupt the blood banks. It was also during a time I was extremely judgmental of alternative lifestyles as I wrote a report in high school government class that we should ship all homosexuals to some island to prevent the spread of whatever they called it at that time, GRID I believe. However, we did not discovery he was ill or had Aids until I was in college and both his sons were my roommates in Austin. That is when I came to regret many of my views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
See what I stated above. It's not my religious beliefs, it's science. And logic. And just a little bit of "Thou Shalt Not Murder".
If pain is the determining factor and by this logic a cow can feel pain. Am I a participant in murder because I ate a hamburger tonight? Brain function would be a more persuasive argument to when life begins in my opinion. As a religious person when the soul enters the body would as be a determining factor for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Does anyone understand something called "adoption"?
Yes, I do and I admire anyone that adopts a child, but not all children even get a chance at adoption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Got to admire the Left. They're just so understanding about accepting anyone and everyone.[/sarcasm]
You also have to admire the Right, they get so far by just sprouting rhetoric that only divides the country. The same politician preaching “family values” leaves his wife while she is undergoing cancer treatments for his mistress, but Bill Clinton is the bad guy. Another talks about “family values” yet invest in a porn movie. The right is pretty accepting too, but only to those on the right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobQel-Droma
Unfortunately, sex ed or not, people still do what they want.
Agreed, but sex education may save lives by your definition by preventing unwanted pregnancies.



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Old 02-08-2008, 09:09 PM   #32
Totenkopf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
As a religious person when the soul enters the body would as be a determining factor for me.
Fair enough. Now, how exactly do you determine that point? Many believe that that moment is conception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
You also have to admire the Right, they get so far by just sprouting rhetoric that only divides the country. The same politician preaching “family values” leaves his wife while she is undergoing cancer treatments for his mistress, but Bill Clinton is the bad guy. Another talks about “family values” yet invest in a porn movie. The right is pretty accepting too, but only to those on the right.
I'm guessing this kind of scrutiny is why many people don't like to be held up as role models. The difference between Bubba and Gingrich(?) is that one broke the law and abused his office, the other just acted like a callous jackass. I don find it ironic that someone as "smart" as Clinton couldn't have crafted a more believable story. I guess the blood really does leave the brain in situations like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Agreed, but sex education may save lives by your definition by preventing unwanted pregnancies.
So, by that logic, telling someone to abstain would be even more invaluable b/c an ounce of prevention is worth more than a ton of cure.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:16 PM   #33
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I have split the abortion discussion into a new thread here. Please keep the discussion in this thread on track (whatever it was and wherever it was going).




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