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Old 09-27-2001, 05:21 AM   #1
Kurt Plummer
 
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Post A New Concept For Sabre Duels...

Hey Ho,

I would like to suggest a new way of looking at saber battling. It is broken down into Three Elements of Failure and One Of Solution.

THE FORCE
First, because only Jedi appear to do sabre work well and Jedi are Force Users, I think it's fair to say that The Force is the basis of that ability and so should be broken down on a less-than-legend, basis of at least 'attempted' (pseudo) science.

From Ep1 we now know that The Force is not some ephimeral 'magic' that exists only as a field of energy outside the norms of EM spectrum detection. We know that it is in fact a cellular anomaly brought on by susceptibility of certain, very rare, hosts to infection by a form of symbiotic microorganic material.

This material in turn generates a field effect throughout the USER body which allows him to influence galactic constants of gravimetric and mass-inertial law.

When Yoda talks about the force and R2D2 'looks around for it', unsuccessfully, using astronav sensors which presumeably can scan much farther into the spectrum than we know today, he doesn't detect the effect of the Force because he is looking for freespace energy rather than the constant (local) cellular flux effect of same.

If the physics connection occurs, throughout all things and it is the LIVING 'sympathy' that allows one-to-feel-as-another then it is not as if you are using The Force like a lever to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp but rather 'attempting a dialup connection' to the physics of the metal and water and microbes in or along same to excite THEIR property differentials within the G-Constants.

Where this is like a quantum tunnel effect of one existence without 'space' (=time) inbetween, it also explains how Jedi are able to see the future and perhaps WHY they are selflimiting in their use of the Force lest they become blinded in a self-induced feedback loop of causality (the poltergeist effect, mentally, would lead to madness of did-I-do-that-or-will-I-in-Future=Past?).

Perhaps as a function of the above, we also know that while The Dark Side is 'quicker, easier' to access on the order of an adrenaline junkie always looking for a new high; it is _not_ ultimately as strategically aware or consciousness enhancing as the Light Side which provides the user the ability to manipulate time and space from a detached standpoint.

((As an aside: It appears that BOTH sides are equally vulnerable to 'strength' issues whereby, to summon sufficient harmonic to direct motion, adjust mass or 'collide the two' with special effects like chain lighting as a channellable result, it takes full concentration and even subconscious tactile/kinesthetic motor 'projection' (through body motion) to achieve. And so, in generating a short range capability with long duration consequences, makes the user almost totally vulnerable to even the most basic of hand to hand attacks let alone DE fire.))

But contrary to most 'good vs. evil' plots and more in line with explanations of why say the Emperor is able to basically whack any 'normal' Jedi he pleases, the meeting of darkness and light is not necessarily one of confrontational 'victory' or even self consumptive 'cancellation' but rather a TOTAL level of awareness-to-action empowerment.

Though to an extent using physical mechanization of effort, Light Sabre combat seems to me to be the epitemy of this capability vs. conscience vs. executional blending because you must be both instantly physically reactive in your wish=motion delivery of blows AND able to see into past them into the future of your opponents actions such that blinding flashes of firey glow are connected/dodged/turned back not on contact (which would surely lead to eye damage the same as looking at an arcwelders torch) but rather in a 'little past sensory awareness, but still not given away to the other guys precognition' basis of blade mesh.

IOW: You have to be young and lively to channel the force into your neuromusculature 'fast' enough to make your blows COUNT against an enemy that will see them coming in the future of his brains cellular micro-tunneling of your brains 'tactical wish fullfillment'.

More on this in a bit.

THE SABRE DUEL, MECHANICS OF MOTION.
What do you think is 'the key' to sabre combat?

Let me tell you mine: Spacing vs. Face.

In many traditional Martial Arts and indeed especially in the Kenjutsu/Kendo/Iado based ones, the 'players' (Kendoka) are forced to wear skirts. WHY?

Because predicting the total body mass-to-motion loop is much more simplistic than guessing at the individual blade angles and body crossing patterns of the arms that nearly ALWAYS COME AFTER body-instinctive foot and knee and hip muscle precursors.

Put simply: your arm swings based on where your leg puts weight in the strike=stride and from strike=side direction that equates to the right/left footfall and supportative leverage.

If you can mask this, you can force your enemy to react to actual blade movements 'on the fly' and this in turn compresses his decision loop and accuracy of guess to a VERY much narrower margin.

Why is this important? Two Reasons: Tactics and Gameplay Immersion.

Tactics. Because the easiest way to keep yourself alive and exploit your strengths while minimizing your weakness' against the superiorities of any given opponent (and there will nearly -always- be some element of speed, reach, strength or directedness where you are _not_ the equal of your foe) is to control the spacing.

If you are slow and weak you want to stand at the edges or 'tip' of his blade radius and make him extend to swing across the largest arc possible to connect with higher expenditure of his own energy and longer period of travel.

If you are willing to 'take his measure' then you want a middle ground where you can both swing hard and fast but are not limited (blocked) by the distance of your bodies vs. blades.

Crushing Close. At these distances you are literally nose to nose or side to side with your foe and less blocking his blades than using brute strength to keep from having them pressed into you.

Speed is compressed here because of the harsh body angles and need to be able to 'push off' back to a more normal fighting stance.

You cannot expose your arms to amputation from full extension and so you cannot swing as normally. Still, things can change VERY quickly by twisting the angle of blade path and using sliding-strokes along their edges to send points and edges cutting into little expected places.

((With the incendiary-sharp penetration factor and no-mass strength capabilities of the Saber, I'm surprised that there is not more knife-length sabre weapons or even dual blade systems. Musashi himself was badly beaten once by a man using a twin-tonfa type ministaff system to capture blade and beat senseless independently.)).

Of course with exceptions for end motion and reach for total-target counter exposure ALL of this must done more or less _FACING_ your opponent and this is an area where the current JK system is particularly weak because your facing direction is modified by mouse while all movements are relative only to a compass point directionality of travel.

Leaving only a single button to dictate hack-and-whack attack forms and 'automatic' defense.

There is no swing-step-thru-stand-back multiplication of motion and using the most common 'strafe' system of novitiates especially, you can easily end up facing anywhere from 90 to 180 degrees *OPPOSITE* a foe who, in real life, would simply move out of your FOV expectation of recaptured sight and as you blundered around 'looking' (stupid) gore you from an unexpected angle.

Immersion. With NO ability to control Spacing Or Facing, we are **crippled** in our control of sabre combat as anything more than a keystone cops emulation of the lethal grace and sheer power shown (at least occasionally) in the films.

BOOOOOOOO! HISSSSSSSSSS!:-) More In A Minute.

THE KATA, STRATEGIES OF PENETRATION THROUGH PREDICTION
While it's true that most 'real' blade combats are not nearly as rich in dance movement as they are short, sharp, terminations of same, the use of Katas or other fixed patterns of blade work in elegant patterns of harmony are taught to help 'unlearn' the body of habitual limitations as well as teach new muscle-memories of what to do from any given part-of-pattern position with sufficient 'simillarities' as to cue the learned instinct.

There are all kinds and forms of these patterns in both Western and Eastern blade work and I personally believe in the Spanish and Latin derived 'wrist to ankle' linked counters more than the whole body 'centered' movements of the Orient.

But the basics are all the same: combinations of offensive movements to break past the joint/muscle flex positions of defense.

Even as the Defender learns means to judge and deflect inbound attacks almost equally subconsciously.

I would _definitely_ like to see several 'schools' of teaching emulated in a good Sabre based dueling game, if only because it would cue the fighter to what methods are most likely to be used against him, most often. Lunging, cross blading, dual blading, fullbody(hand and feet)+blading, gun+blading, circular foot patterns etc.

More importantly, however; I believe that a fully developed system of 'tap tap LUNGE block back block' type warfare would help, ENORMOUSLY in the 'entertainment value' of immersion.

Especially if you could 'tape it' for personal replay and preset attack strategy.

SABRE BATTLES: A TOTAL WARFARE CONCEPT
Okay so I've outlined the basics of how I see battles being fought 'In Real Life' and how they come up short in JK1.

Let's bring them all together.

THE FORCE:
The player should NOT be 'light or dark', ESPECIALLY in sabre dueling but rather able to selectively 'spike' two vertical graphlines of EITHER 'Blue' OR 'Red' energies. And eventually both together.

BLUE: Is foresight for defense. Depending on your relative expertise, for a given number of microseconds you should 'see' a glow of red-directional intent that highlights your enemies coming attack. It also increases the speed and number of counterstrokes you have to defend against that attack.

RED: Makes you hit quicker and with more force accelerated power (remember, light or even plasma weighs comparitively nothing so where there is no inertia, ALL 'force' of impacted blows are generated solely by _you_).

Inbetween should be an X:Y graph of how many strikes you can block vs. how many you can hit and from the number of /used/ blows remaining after each exchange you should be able to guess your relative superiorities vs. your enemy.

Allowing you to adjust 'concentration modes' to better survive or better press home an offense.

Hit the BLUE key once and your at max defense (the graphline itself will grow as you get better to reflect increased abilities), hit it twice and you're back at medium. Double hit it, twice-fast, and you've given everything to RED (which should literally 'glow brighter') for a few instances of surged ability.

And vice versa.

ENTRY/EXIT.
When a Jedi gets into trouble, does he die, badly, because he's hurt or running out of maneuvering room or simply 'outgunned' in terms of blaster-bolts-vs.-sabre-strokes?
NO!!

He does a magical Deux Ex Machina leap-out or skip-back to _Get The Hell Out Of There_.

Such that whatever is about to kill or eat him ends up shooting or biting completely out of fight plane with his new location.

I would like a similar keypress ability which, regardless of relative range to a sanctuary would, _when there was a sanctuary available_, 'get me there'.

This could be as little as a high somersault over a bad man about to push me off a bridge or a long step back in a very big room.

As a potential drawback difficulty option you could make any fight 'exited' cause the enemy to regenerate some or all of his damage points in the interval before you rejoined combat and of course you would probably turn your sabre off so that you didn't cut your own legs. Overuse the ability and someone might just 'lead you anyway'.

SPACE.
Another key by which I could increase the likely number of swings I or an opponent could make without actually 'leaving' (sabre off) the fight.

You always have that 'OK Corral Moment' (Luke vs. Vader in the Carbonite room) where you are at maximal distance, staring each other down.

Press once and you come ot outer battle distance. Twice and you are at medium.
Thrice and you are REALLY going for it, to bring the battle up close and personal.
Changes the tactics by which you fight and compresses or extends the battle to compensate for weakness' or strengths.

I /dreamed/ of this one when I was fighting that damn little malignant dwarf in the Jedi Twins battle of JK1. Wanted to lear at him as I trapped his little body to the floor and PUSHED HARD.

FACE.
This one should be automatic most of the time though the ability to shut it off would be kewl for some combo strokes.

Basically, whatever movement your enemy makes you adjust your stance and direction of facing to keep blade-on.

FACE and SPACE are -the two- elements which are most critical to keeping the fight 'going' in terms of always trading blows and never getting rammed in the back because your movement control cannot really account for body axis changes, especially if you are multi-keystroke or modem pinged out.

KATA.
I for one cannot possibly 'attack' as fast as Obiwan did in the final Reactor Shaft duel in Ep.1.

Even if the sabre strokes themselves could be sped up to match this, in-game, I don't think I could react individually to create both my own movement /and/ blade angle attacks, with separate keys.

The Neat Thing about my system is that, with FACE and SPACE, _you don't have to_.

Keeping in mind that, like it or lump it, we are _stuck with_ massed-blade fighting systems as the basis of sabre work and remembering what I said that almost _every attack_ begins with a giveaway footmotion, let's make the

QWE
ASD
ZXC

conventional movements into _fighting technique choices_.

Q High Left Diagonal Shoulder/Neck Cut
W Center High Torso Attack
E High Right Diagonal Shoulder/Neck Cut
A Lateral Left Attack Gut/Elbow Attack
S Thrusting or Center-Lunge Attack
D Lateral Right Attack Gut/Elbow Attack
Z Low Cut (Knee or Ankle) Left Attack
X Center (Inside Thigh or Knee) Attack
C Low Cut (Kneed or Ankle) Right Attack

Where you cut dictates which way your feet _automatically_ move after the stroke to compensate inertia and 'bring you back to center'.

Simple on it's face but also /boring/ and unfluid (hack hack whack whack!;-) repetitive in it's useage.

BUT.

Let's /combine/ those moves and watch the blade /trace/ in elegant patterns through the air.

Q->D->A->W->S->S-FACEOFF->E

Kyle starts his attack by slicing from his high left across the body and exiting the stroke at (his view of) the enemies mid right ribs.

In a single blur of motion he then /reverses/ the stroke back through the target laterally and again draws a diagonal back up to the head before stamping his foot forward in a classic 'double tap' to the startled foes center body and turning off FACE for a single moment, spinning through to slash from behind at the joint of shoulder and upper arm, aiming for a critical trauma stroke clear down to the poor bastards heart.

Type that code into a between-levels new-kata capability (1 more per each new 'level' of mastery gained, including special swings or more swings per existing kata).

And then, during battle, _Activate_ that 1-5 numbered preset of multimotion kata-attack and now you can fight like they do in the movies because you are controlling not just where a blade stroke starts but where a /series/ of cuts swing as a function of dynamic body axis changes between you.

Of course you may want to keep it fairly simple because most people can be caught on repetiveness and if you keep blocking right and counter attacking left, because that is what your foe is doing, you should be able to dictate his doom by suddenly blocking right and attacking back _right_.

As a function of 'interaction' with the computer AI.

THIS IS STRATEGIC GAMING IN AN FPS SHOOTER ARENA!!:-))

CONCLUSION:
We fight more or less like what we are. Untrained, 2D limited ('Monitor Mode'), Strictly Articulated, arcade game players.

That's fine when you're mashing a trigger but Sword Play is much more intimate, more interactive, a method of battle where you must almost dance with your opponent in order to know his rythms and break them down.

You can't do this with clumsy single-strokes and IMO, this factor of understanding is what makes the Jedi truly a challenge to play and why I wish that we were effectively untouchable (shields or no, perfect blaster blocking 'awareness' and single swing contact-kills) vs. 'normals' because then we could avoid or engage at will all technology driven opponents but those with truly overwhelming (numbers/shielded guns/explosive/chokepoint) firepower.

Or The Force and a Sabre at their side.

As the same time, the only way to achieve such 'perfection' at the remote level without making the game boring as heck is to double or treble the sophistication of combat at the other end. Mano-A-Mano. Your Blood Or Mine.

This would be possible if we increased the Sabre on Sabre encounters and the difficulty of prosecuting them successfully vs. the endless, mindless, (no AI intellect) trigger pull warfare of JK1.


Kurt Plummer

[ September 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kurt ]
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Old 09-27-2001, 06:20 AM   #2
Jolts
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You think too much
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Old 09-29-2001, 07:49 PM   #3
Moose-windu
 
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Agreed
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Old 09-29-2001, 08:39 PM   #4
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I think I speak for everyone when I say, can you please sum up your posts better? I haven't bothered reading one of your posts. Unless you were a Raven member posting a ton of new info, there's no point to waste 10 minutes reading a post that is just your opinion. Please shorten them. If you don't, you are posting for no reason cause most people won't bother reading them. Just letting you know.
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Old 09-29-2001, 09:41 PM   #5
StephenG
 
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i'm not reading all of that


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Old 09-30-2001, 01:02 AM   #6
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Hey, good points. Keep up the good work!


"I would weep, but my tears have been stolen; I would shout, but my voice has been taken. Thus, I write."
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Old 09-30-2001, 12:09 PM   #7
Syndrix
 
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Well that is all interesting, but you have to remember this is not Sim Jedi. As much as I love playing a jedi there are those who would like to play with guns and such. If Raven spent all their time perfecting a complex saber combat system, they would hardly have any left for other game elements.
Also while many would play long enough to become masters under your system, many more would become bored before they even cracked the suface, discarding it quickly and certainly not recommending it. If you make something over-complex you risk annoying people and slowing the mechanics of the game down. If people play it to "become" jedi knights they want to move fast and strike quick, not turning saber dueling into a game version of Fencing.

Also you assume (or hope) that there is going to be a class system, "Jedi" in game terms is still just someone using a saber unless Raven decide to make a class that is the only one allowed access to force powers and a saber.

You seem to know a little about martial arts (I may even hazard a guess you know some). But what you have to realise that until we are able to step into a "holodeck" we probably wont be able to bring anything into being as conplex as what you suggest. You have so good idea's but need to make your points quicker as most wont read essay's on saber dueling etc.

-Tactics and Gameplay Immersion-
You speak of these and the mechanics that entail martial arts fighting and various weapon styles. What you have to realise is that most of this is not applicable in a game universe. It is always possible to improve something and saber fighting is definately going to have to be improved over JK1 if its going to survive long term in JK2. But you must realise this isnt the films, you arent in real life, if you add to many factors required to become skillful it is no longer immersive or fun, just to much hard work to do one single attack.

If you want a game that focuses on every single element factoring into skillful saber combat in "real life", go buy Microsoft's Sword Simulator 2000. JK2 sabering needs to be detailed but still quite easy to adapt to.


Genius is limited, unfortunately stupidity is not thus so.
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Old 09-30-2001, 01:09 PM   #8
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Detail is good but your asking for a lot more. IT A GAME not a new world. Lucas/Raven are not making a REAL LIGHTSABER


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Old 10-01-2001, 01:27 AM   #9
Kurt Plummer
 
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Syndrix,

I wonder how 'complex' it would really be?
To me complexity is something which is so fast or multielemented that I cannot play it because I am 'not good enough'.

If only in the eyes of a game designer who reduces sabre combat to CHARRRRRGE! like Yosemite Sam approaches on an enemy that sits there like a cow awaiting my sledgehammer.

OTOH:

~ Enter/Exit
Tab Space
CAPS Face

QWE
ASD
ZXC
||
Individual Strokes

12345
||
Katas

LSHIFT Blue Force Up
LCTRL Red Force Up

Are all tight grouped for single handed operations (and given the ABSENCE of required mouse control they could probably as easily be put onto the numpad for right handed use).

And they all individually effect the gameplay ONLY to the extent that YOU want them to.

ENTER/EXIT is just simply nice to have when you're down to your last few health points. It is to put it mildly 'grace under pressure'.

FACE is always on unless you want it off to 'charge thru and spin around' with a special stroke.

SPACE is used perhaps once to get to a desired 'style' range. I wouldn't recommend a 5' 8" Luke Skywalker going nose-to-grille with Darth Vaders 6' 7" breath mint or he'll push you to your knees with sheer 'force' of leverage.

QWEASDZXC are enablers to style (more cut types) but don't effect your vulnerability in the least because you are always facing your enemy and you thus don't have to worry about how your leg movements send you flying past him/her/it. And your own defensive blocking guard.

LSHIFT/LCTRL are again use-or-ignore based on how you want to increase individual abilities to attack or defend. 'Normally' they are balanced and you simply use whatever number are skill-level available or 'back out' of a fight you can't block against or attack past.

Again YOU choose to run a risk where your sudden attacks (how fast and smooth you can hit QWEASDZXC) make the other guy run blocking rather than 'fight back' against your open defense.

KATAS Become the equivalent of 'combo moves' on a standup arcade machine but are there regardless of some gross manipulation of a stick or (impossible, IMO) slide-mouse.

Most importantly, they are 'fill in the blanks' __ __ __ __ __ __

PRESET using the same intuitive hi-lo/side-side stroke keys as shown above.

BEFORE you enter a combat level.

COMPLEXITY=SIMPLICITY
In fact, of all the keys above, the only keys you really really need to know are perhaps the Exit/Enter key and the Kata keys.

Maybe six total and of those only 1-2 more 'memorized' per each Jedi Level you survived to reach.

Everything else makes multiplayer 'funner' (rewards those with the wits and focus to encompass and master the full command set) but is not relevant to the basic SP mode, in-game.

SIMPLICITY=MORONITY
The problem is that if you cheapen things to the extent that 'it's all automated' (as the E3 video largely indicates to me) then you remove the fun too.

Having struggled with 'batter up!' blocking in TPM, I accept that defense cannot be realtime to my reflexes at the same time I expect to be an offensive 'force' against multiple threat bearings.

But I would sure like to know that, in the end, it was ME and not some machine algorithm dancing vorpal sword that dun slew the mighty Jabberwocki.


Snicker Snack- Kurt Plummer
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Old 10-01-2001, 02:06 AM   #10
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oops you did it again
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Old 10-01-2001, 03:38 AM   #11
Kurt Plummer
 
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Okay, let's try this again.

There are literally /dozens/ of 'fight game' standup arcade systems in existence. All of them can be characterized by two basic elements:

1. Character Icons (monster/dinosaurs, martial artists, gunmen, whatever) are almost always 'facing' each other within a fixed available (albeit often scrolling) game environment. Simplification meaning you hit or you block but you never get stabbed from behind because you're a clutz and ran past the guy you were trying to hit or block.

2. They are _specifically designed_ to challenge the player into pissing away quarters based on the 'find this special move and bag your friends with it!' combinations of joystick and button press.

These are in NO WAY thought of as 'Sim Sabre' equivalent and yet for all their 'complexity' I would hazard a guess that many here have played many of them.

My system is no different except that I only want to stick a knife in your wallet once and in trade for forty-sixty bucks, I tell you _exactly how it's gonna work_, from the very start.

1-2-3-4-5 Katas + Enter/Exit.

A new Kata being added as you grow from a Jedi Initiate through Warrior/Knight/Master, possibly with _no other controls_ in a 'simple fight model' difficulty version of the game.

Lastly, don't overrate my typing at fixed font size on computer monitor.

The above screen scrollers might seem excessive but think of them in terms of 1-2 facing pages from a manual.

Even added to my 'other discertations' on possibly better Force Control and Weapons and you STILL only have maybe 6-9 pages total.

I read true-sim manuals like Falcon 4 and all of it's addons with 200+ pages and wonder why they couldn't make it 'more complete'.


Kurt Plummer
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Old 10-02-2001, 08:50 PM   #12
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Keep It Simple Stupid.
There is a reason for teaching basic blocks and strikes. These moves aren't just for a beginner but motions a artist needs to do/understand best.
The example could be the difference between Obi-Wan's moves in Episode I (fancy and time consuming), as compared to Ep. III. In a New Hope, Kenobi fought from "center" keeping his moves uncomplex and straightforward.
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Old 10-02-2001, 09:55 PM   #13
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Stunned,

KISS: I agree, which is why all of my kata moves are designed to be integrated/flowing 'contingency plans' of the basic strikes.

Indeed, you might see an 'expert' gameplayer (with a lot of strokes per equivalent 'melee round') suffixing to or prequeling before a kata with the QWEASDZXC keys to say pick a side or a tempo and 'beat on it' in eliciting an expected response.

With the Kata acting as the hook-line-and-sinker exploitation element of an observed pattern shortfall.

Heck, you can fight completely with the aforementioned NINE attack keys if you want because of the FACE+SPACE footwork controls.

The katas can as readily themselves provide simplistic standalone attack enhancement along the lines of BOTH Obi Wan's "I'm angry NOW!" assault on Maul and Luke's "You leave my sister outta this!" moment with Vader.

Attacks where you see men given completely to offense and pound-pound-pound sweep-up-enemy-blade and WHAP!

Striking.

It ain't pretty but within a given (equal) skill set it works to keep the fight progressing towards a predetermined outcome simply because your foe dares not respond out of path unless he is just blazingly -quicker- than you.

The nice thing is that, even before talking about varying Jedi 'schools' of sword art, I give you about 3 times as many _basic_ attacks to find that sweet spot your enemy is weak in.

But only with a 'knowledge base' of 1-2 memorized forms, per level, to execute thru (a very bad misconception is that a kata is a fixed-ending form, it is but only in 'Americanized' martial arts) in response to or setting up any given encounter.

Lastly, simplicity is the same-all-over. Where familiarity is a good weapon you know fully the characteristics of, katas using single key combo 'programming' with QWEASDZXC extend the basics of what you 'already know' (right off the bat available 'special attack' keys) you want to happen.

Very Predictably.

Even as they allow for 'alternate endings' from the AI blocking algorithms at stroke 1/2/3 that counter back and trade initiative before kata end at stroke 6 deals a death blow.

And for those WANTING to be 'entertained' there would still be unique body motions as a function of the way the blade curves through space and the skeletal system absorbs the shock of contact. Yes, in this case the kata become the 'poetry in motion', even if it's bad poetry (only a very short total key insert 'programs' and little axial control).

As for Ben Kenobi, you saw a portrayl of an old man by an OLD MAN, Alec Guiness.

A great actor but one taught in the basics of European _theatre fencing_, what?, almost 35 years ago? You can see it all over in his stiffly linear advancing cuts and spiral blade engagement/trapping gambits.

Moves which let him advance up the line of attack without getting in any ludicrous strength battles with an enemy that totally outclassed him using a weapon system he was likely never taught to begin with.

In any case, this elder (70-80 even in Ep.4) gentleman probably had shoulder rotator cuffs shot to hell with the reflexes of a hibernating bear and lacked the cardiovascular endurance as well as knee and ankle limberness (watch how he steps on the ball but 'falls back' to /stand/ on the heels of his feet) to maintain the pace of footwork necessary to exploit Euro sword work's dynamic control of open spacing.

It wasn't bad for all that but it was clearly shot to hide his weakness' and they were many.

That's ONE thing that TPM got right:

Blade combat is for the exquisitely trained and _very young_.

Or the very foolish.

/Looking Foolish/ trying to master mouselook+move+cut dynamics to get adequately 'long' sweeping cuts within a very clumsy (separate) hand&hoof scrolling execution system is what kept JK1 more of a shooter for about 99.9 percent of the playing public, IMO.

(I have friends that got all the way to either Boc or Jerec and simply never finished the game because they wouldn't use a cheat code and were being constantly whacked...:``(.


Kurt Plummer
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Old 10-03-2001, 10:13 AM   #14
cossack1812
 
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smart arse
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:19 AM   #15
DxParry
 
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Kurt,
You have just described the game I've been dreaming about. Although I'm almost sure that it will never be able to exist it's great to see that some one has an ideal similar to mine. Ever since I played JK I loved the saber battles, but hated the over use of the z-swing.

Art of the Lightsaber (AotL, a mod for MotS) is the closest I have ever gotten to such gameplay. Unfortunately the mod was not widely played and I soon after left the JK community. It had the dramatic qualities of a movie (robes where you could wear the hood, take the hood off, or throw the whole robe aside), multiple attacks/swings/ and a saber on/off, manual defense(!!), and best of all: no z-swing. Anyway, enough living in the past.

I also think that in order to truly appreciate this type of intricate gameplay one needs to know a similar art. I am a foil fencer, and when two people of similar skill and style bout eachother I find it quite enjoyable to watch (or participate in) the two think and test eachother trying to find how to best the other. It seems that I'm digressing and rambling....

SO! If I ever get anywhere in coding (maybe in ten years (I'm taking C++ now)) I would be able to help and create such a game. But if you find a game like this, Kurt, please e-mail me.

And to everyone else, Hi! I'm new here, I'm looking forward to JK2 even though it won't be my ideal game, but it'll still be the best game I'll have played! (probably... hopefully... it'd better be!)

Thanks for reading,
DxParry

please excuse my spelling/grammar errors.
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Old 10-08-2001, 09:30 AM   #16
Kurt Plummer
 
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Thanks DX,

I'm glad (very!) to have a kind word now and again and will certainly look for your moniker on any new title, keep up both fields of study!:-)

I think that the way this will eventually game out is probably some PC cross between a standup martial arts game like MK and a pure-blade combat adventure story like RSpear or period myth like Highlander.

A deliberately fuzzy area where whatever element of storyline is included is also broken up or geography/timeline 'enhanced' by gladiatorial combat in interesting (deep) fight environs depicting various appropriate places as well as styles of weapon/engagement that work exclusively within the 'it must have a sharp edge to kill' bladed realm.

A game where at least part of 'the quest' is simple flight-or-fight choices against shadowy opponents who will, early on, nearly ALWAYS match (just as young, just as dumb, very bloody and random/prolonged) or totally outclass (wham bam thank you ma'am certain death) you on a journey of balanced gained-friend endurance as much as combat tested survival while you 'earn to learn' (not just one style but many) from various kindly teachers across centuries of time to eventually fight other Ancients for the right to be The One.

(Snicker, obviously it also gives you the option to be run over by a Mack truck and still come back 'just fine'...;-).

Until then, I keep hoping that Raven has the remaining time and open-design interest to maybe add a few of my spices to their stew or that somebody here will decide to completely revamp the existing JK engine when/if (and I'm sad to say I expect it) JKO turns out to be something different from what we all enjoyed before.


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