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Old 03-10-2008, 01:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
sorry niner, you cant make a statement like that without some testbed articles to back it up!!
http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/01/...ed/page12.html

Quote:
...Intel's Core 2 processor family, which still is the champion when it comes to performance, and often the leader in performance per watt as well.



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Old 03-10-2008, 02:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
cmon jmac, we all know that stuff!! Do you think we've not read the reviews as well With our magnificent tech reporter NegSun, such tidbits will never escape us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by teehee@Toms
However, we used the SYSmark 2007 Preview suite as it represents the majority of workloads applicable to a wide user base, and also because it does include some idle time, which we believe reflects real user behavior pretty well.
"we" ?? The people at Toms are qualified to conclusively report on long term effects of consumer energy consumption profiles?? I haven't come across any report of a longitudinal study design of theirs to test this.. I doubt we ever will.. people who soil themslves at TRI-SLI setups and glowing case fans are less likely to be concerned about this issue at any further depth than a SYSmark test.

There are a number of initiatives research centres/energy providers are undertaking to look into this type of stuff. One of the most notable being Project NOAH(University Of California, Irvine) of course. There's some great articles analysing their methodology and the unique "AppTrack" software they developed.

One of the challenging aspects(from a research POV) of the IT world is the high rate of change for new hardware, due to ever improving engineering standards. This is perfectly summed up by Moore's Law which any hardware geek worth their salt will know intimately

A contiguous research model is something that is necessary to keep up with all this, which is an expensive undertaking for governments and energy providers, who are skilled at penny pinching

Now, I wonder if "Tom's Hardware" can meet that challenge instead?[/bollocks they can]

What it boils down to:
True, representative data about energy consumption for home computer use is complex to gather, requiring a specialised research methodology that will not only gather the data correctly, but also keep up with ever evolving computer hardware standards. The information reported in small scale hardware reviews, whilst interesting to read, can in no way approximate an adequate research design, neither in scale nor intention.

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Old 03-10-2008, 02:39 PM   #43
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But they can answer simple questions like those posed in this thread.

No one asked for an academic paper on computer component power usage, just a general thought on CPU efficiency to aid in the purchase of one.




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Old 03-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
because i'm biased towards amd i refuse to believe the test data from your article from a reliable source and their conclusion that in general, intel gets the most performance per watt words words words
Okay then. The fact remains that when Tom's Hardware ran their tests, most Core 2 Duos used less power than their AMD counterparts and that their tests were accurate enough for an argument on an internet forum.

And I ran AMD processors for most of my builds. In fact, the E8400 is the first Intel processor I've used in a build, so my bias is towards the company that puts out the best-performing product.



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Old 03-11-2008, 11:11 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
But they can answer simple questions like those posed in this thread.

No one asked for an academic paper on computer component power usage, just a general thought on CPU efficiency to aid in the purchase of one.
...a general thought? How informative are they! The greater the quality of information you give to people, the better they are armed to make a sound, informed decision.

People around the world ask this very question all the time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by urluckyday & many others
Is there a major speed/efficiency difference between the AMD Dual Cores and the Intel Core 2 Duos? If you can offer any answer, first-hand experience, or even test results, that'd be greatly appreciated.
...and receive the stock standard answers, based on those limited test bed results. That's fine, but as long as people who rely on you for that information are told the limitations of what you are actually telling them. If you're not doing that than you really are no better than a slick salesperson

@jmac >> yes, we get all that stuff from Tom's etc. But it simply doesnt translate into real-world usage terms we can understand. If two almost identically spec'd pcs were used identically, what is the difference, both in terms of watt-hours and $$$ ?? This type of info is never given in such reports.

A report finding that has no practical relevance should carry little weight in terms of influencing purchase decisions.. however, when people report on/recommend a certain product(as you have done), giving testbed links is a trite way of backing up your recommendation as far as basing it on facts that actually mean something. Doesnt matter if its Intel/AMD or Ronald McDonald, those numbers and observations are simply not the "whole story"! I wish those testbed clowns would add a...

"*your individual results may vary, depending on overall component wattage and usage profile."

...disclaimer/caveat on their findings as far as power efficiency is concerned.

If people are making a query about energy efficiency, what is wrong with trying to arm them a fuller understanding of what pertinent factors are? I am thankful to the various persons that got me thinking about this stuff over the years. Ive been able to make changes that have literally saved me $100s of dollars a year as far as power bills are concerned..... surely thats more useful than a "general thought" ??!

so to urluckyday etc, from a power efficiency point of view, here are the basics to keep in mind:
*Your PC and peripherals are made of many current carrying parts. These coupled with the overall way you use them contribute to a more accurate description of your power consumption.

Rather than considering what the impact of one component will be on this energy consumption profile, you're better off thinking about:

Total power consumption of *all* your parts. Are their any particular parts you have that predispose your rig to being inefficient off the bat ? ie. why ask a question about power efficiency for a CPU when you have a 750W PSU, and an X2 gfx card or SLI/XF setup?

There are many online power supply calculators that will give an *approximation* of the wattage load ALL your components alone will be draining. if you are really keen on it, you can get meters that will *accurately* measure how much juice your pc is actually using. If you are really keen on seeing what changes you can affect that will impact on your power use/power bill, this is the best way. You can then change different variables, be it individual components, or (more usually) usage patterns to see what impact you will have.

Some quick n easy ways to make sure you are being power efficient.
1. Tweak your power management settings. Make a profile that is appropriate for the time you are actually on the pc

2. Not using the monitor? switch it off(or have your power management profile do it for you)

3. Game in shorter bursts. Helps naturally regulate temp of your whole system(not just the cpu)

4. Make sure there is good ventilation around the pc.. so many desk sets nowdays have a little cupboard or compartment the pc gets stuffed in.... these "pc incubators" do no favours to a pc as far as heat dissipation goes

5. Use Blackle! a truly great idea! lolz

I wont rabbit on about small form factor and energy star compliant kit, as Ive done that enough before They are worth considering though, if you are super keen on energy efficiency.

The great thing about optimising energy efficiency of your pc use is that it will maximise the lifespan of your kit(as opposed to thrashing and overheating it), and benefit your hip pocket with lower energy bills. The environmental benefits also go without saying 'Tis a win-win

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Last edited by Astrotoy7; 03-11-2008 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:13 PM   #46
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Well, there you go, urluckyday. Now that Astro has given his whole big dissertation on power consumption and what not, I hope you feel that much more informed.

And that laptop actually looks pretty nice for that price. Decent video card, fairly fast (for a laptop CPU) processor, reputable manufacturer. It has Vista on it, which isn't the greatest option for laptops, but it has 2GB of RAM, so it should be able to handle it. I'd say go for it if that's what you're looking for.




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Old 03-11-2008, 03:28 PM   #47
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I think I will, and I'll letchya guys know what happens! Thanks for all your help!



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Old 03-11-2008, 05:21 PM   #48
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Who on earth got Astro started about power efficiency?

I agree with Niner, that laptop is very good value for money (especially when a laptop of that spec in the UK would cost you $2,000, I kid you not), and unless you want to slap Crysis on that, it should be able to handle pretty much anything you throw at it...



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Old 03-11-2008, 08:01 PM   #49
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I know, I can't wait...I think that's the ONE.



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Old 03-12-2008, 08:17 PM   #50
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Another one for the AMD list:

GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H (Newegg.com)

GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H (Scan.co.uk)

And an in depth review of the 780G chipset and the above mentioned board...

This is now hands down my mobo of choice as I'm an AMD fanboy and this actually doen't make me feel ashamed to say it anymore, with a low TDP, Hybrid Crossfire, integrated GPU that's better than some discrete GPUs and an insanely low price, I wish I could buy it this second cause I wouldn't hesitate!



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Old 03-13-2008, 01:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urluckyday
I know, I can't wait...I think that's the ONE.
I know Im going to sound like a sour ole basted but do you really need a lappie? Is portability a huge issue? Speaking purely from experience(I had a Toshiba Satteliite 5200 which was awesome back in its day!!)

1. The cost, damn Can build a damn fine deskie for the cost of a higher end gaming ready lappie.

2. Important bits not upgradeable.. Driver support for Mobile GPUs is woeful! Watch the deskie world go through 50 revisions and you get a handful if youre lucky

3. Heat! Heat! Heat! It was lucky I had a 3 year warranty on it as I thrashed it so hard it needed to have the drive replaced twice and the CPU once, simply from being overcooked.

If you do decide to go with it, please get yourself a cooling pad, if you're the heavy use type.

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Old 03-14-2008, 03:36 PM   #52
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Hey...thanks for the advice, but I ended up getting that one...I love it...
Heat is not an issue thus far, and I love Vista (as I knew I would)...
Thanks for all the help guys!



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Old 03-15-2008, 02:40 AM   #53
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Update:
I love this computer. Grim Fandango wouldn't even install one file, so I used the installer that put it directly onto my HD, and it now works like a charm...not possible to be mad or upset if GF works...



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Old 03-15-2008, 11:04 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urluckyday
Update:
I love this computer. Grim Fandango wouldn't even install one file, so I used the installer that put it directly onto my HD, and it now works like a charm...not possible to be mad or upset if GF works...
ok then. Have fun! Just remember Old Astro's advice about cooling pads will ya

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Old 03-30-2008, 01:37 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Sun
Another one for the AMD list:

GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H (Newegg.com)

GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H (Scan.co.uk)

And an in depth review of the 780G chipset and the above mentioned board...

This is now hands down my mobo of choice as I'm an AMD fanboy and this actually doen't make me feel ashamed to say it anymore, with a low TDP, Hybrid Crossfire, integrated GPU that's better than some discrete GPUs and an insanely low price, I wish I could buy it this second cause I wouldn't hesitate!
So what exactly does Hybrid Crossfire do? If I were to get this mobo and install a HD 3870 discrete card on it would my games be able to utilize both the HD 3870 and the onboard HD 3200 to render the display or only the 3870? From the bit-tech article it doesn't sound like Hybrid Crossfire will initially support switching between the onboard and the discrete GPU.


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Old 03-30-2008, 05:44 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char Ell
So what exactly does Hybrid Crossfire do? If I were to get this mobo and install a HD 3870 discrete card on it would my games be able to utilize both the HD 3870 and the onboard HD 3200 to render the display or only the 3870? From the bit-tech article it doesn't sound like Hybrid Crossfire will initially support switching between the onboard and the discrete GPU.
Sorry I thought it explained that in the article, but I've definitely read it somewhere, I'll maybe try and dig it up at some point.

Hybrid CrossFire means just that, instead of having to use two identical cards, you can use two different ones, but in this particular case, it's an on-board GPU with a discrete card.

The on-board handles pretty much everything in Windows (even Vista Aero) as it's the most powerful on-board solution to date.
When you start up a game, the discrete card will kick in on top of the on-board graphics to give you Hybrid Crossfire, which gives you a decent boost in certain games apparently, even more so because the on-board GPU on the above mentioned mobo is apparently a doozy to overclock without any extra need for cooling. Even though it's not as powerful as an HD3870 or even 3850, boosting the core from 500Mhz to about 700/750Mhz is nothing to sniff at, couple that with a decent mid-range GPU (HD3850/3870) and the mid-range isn't quite as dull anymore!



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Old 03-31-2008, 11:31 AM   #57
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Updated the second (recommended parts list - new Intel Quad Core!) and third (General FAQ - OEM vs Retail, hardware pricing) posts of this thread with new information.




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Old 04-01-2008, 12:49 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negative Sun
Hybrid CrossFire means just that, instead of having to use two identical cards, you can use two different ones, but in this particular case, it's an on-board GPU with a discrete card.

The on-board handles pretty much everything in Windows (even Vista Aero) as it's the most powerful on-board solution to date.
When you start up a game, the discrete card will kick in on top of the on-board graphics to give you Hybrid Crossfire, which gives you a decent boost in certain games apparently, even more so because the on-board GPU on the above mentioned mobo is apparently a doozy to overclock without any extra need for cooling. Even though it's not as powerful as an HD3870 or even 3850, boosting the core from 500Mhz to about 700/750Mhz is nothing to sniff at, couple that with a decent mid-range GPU (HD3850/3870) and the mid-range isn't quite as dull anymore!
That sounds pretty much like what I'm looking for. Mid-range to high-end discrete card is in a powered off or very low standby power state while low to mid-range onboard GPU runs non-GPU intensive apps like general web browsing, e-mail, office apps, etc. But when GPU activity starts to hit 85-90% utilization or so then the chipset, GPU, or other h/w device powers up the discrete card and both onboard and discrete GPU's are used to render the display.

I'm not sure I'd go for the idea of the onboard GPU switching over to the discrete card and not being used until the GPU load drops enough that the switchback threshold is reached and the discrete hands off GP to the onboard again. I don't know, maybe there are technical limitations around running two GPU's with significant differences in GP computational capabilities but if that is the way it works it seems to me that this becomes a one-dimensional benefit of power savings instead of power savings with increased GP power. I look forward to reading in-depth reviews of hybrid GP products to learn more about how this works.


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Old 04-05-2008, 10:15 AM   #59
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I need some more help...

I got everything a while back, and last weekend I just got around to putting it all together. But I ran into a problem. The motherboard I bought apparently needs to be plugged into the PSU via a 4-pin ATX 12V cable... it definitely says so in the manual. But I don't have one. I read up on it, and apparently older motherboards tended to require the 4-pin cable in order to give the processor a bit more juice. Is that right? But the mobo I have definitely supports Core 2 Duo. The cable didn't come with the mobo and it didn't come with the PSU either. There doesn't seem to be anywhere where you can buy said cable seperately. What can I do about it?



^ Picture (not of my hardware, but a picture of what I mean, in case I haven't explained anything properly).


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Old 04-05-2008, 10:45 AM   #60
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Huh?

I thought all PSUs came with those. What type of PSU are you using? Are you sure that there isn't one on the PSU?


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Old 04-05-2008, 11:08 AM   #61
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Positive. I've got somewhere to plug one in to...



...but no cable.

(excuse the quality of the pic, it's from a phone since I couldn't be bothered to find the digital camera).

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/Produ...oductID=602505

^ This was what I ended up getting.


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Old 04-05-2008, 11:47 AM   #62
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every computer i know of uses a 12V ATX cable (mostly 4-pin, but some use an 8-pin), and as far as i know, every ATX PSU comes with one. check and see if you didn't confuse it with a PCI-E connector (those should be 6-pin, but sometimes they'll be 8-pin).

if you're using a modular PSU, the 12V ATX connector should be on the non-detachable strands of wires from the back of the unit. and, no, it doesn't detach from the 24-pin main power connector (the part that detaches does so to fit older motherboards with a 20-pin connector).

anyways, let us know if that helps.


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Old 04-05-2008, 11:55 AM   #63
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unusual.... does the rig start without it??? Check your PSU manual, it should say what cables should be included. Thats a decent PSU btw, silverstone make some good kit

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Old 04-05-2008, 12:21 PM   #64
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It's definitely not there. There's even a key next to it on the PSU itself to show you where the cable should be, and it's just not there. All of the cables on the back of the PSU are detachable...

I also seem to be missing a PCI-E cable, but that isn't really needed anyway since I don't have that many expansions.

I've just emailed the people I got it from. Hopefully they'll be able to just send me a cable for it, but I'm not gonna get my hopes up.

@ Astro, I just checked the manual and the manual seems to indicate that it should be there, as well as the relevant technical specs on the site I got it from, but it's not there. I haven't tried attempting to boot it, though. Do you think it's worth bothering?


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Old 04-05-2008, 04:56 PM   #65
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Is it a modular PSU you've got?



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Old 04-05-2008, 05:54 PM   #66
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I don't even know what that means, but yeah supposedly it is. Click on the link in post #61 and click on the technical specs tab on that page, and it should tell you everything relevant there is to know... it clearly states there that there is an ATX connector but I never got one!


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Old 04-05-2008, 07:05 PM   #67
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My bad, I should've just checked that...I've no personal experience with modular PSUs, so I don't know if the 4-pin 12V ATX cable would come separately from the 20-pin one, or if it's the 20+4-pin one that's incomplete...

What motherboard have you got?
And when you connected the motherboard cable, does it fit properly? I doesn't have an excess on either side does it? Cause your pic only shows one side of it...



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Old 04-05-2008, 09:43 PM   #68
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http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/Produ...oductID=657881
^ Mobo.

The 20+4 pin cable is fine, I'm just missing the seperate 4-pin cable.


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Old 04-06-2008, 09:01 AM   #69
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yes, it is a modular PSU

This means that rather than one mess of cables snaking out of a PSU, that there are specific individual cables/connections for each area of a mainboard ie. "module"

The pci-e cabe usually comes with your 1337 powered graphics card. If I were you, I'd
contact the place you got it from to inquire about the seemingly missing cable!

Funny that you havent tried booting it though

good luck

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Old 04-06-2008, 09:42 PM   #70
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Looks like that 4-pin and the PCI-E cables were just left out. Weird.

Yeah, you should contact who you got it from because it's definitely supposed to come with those. Ask for the PCI-E cable as well because a lot of video cards require 2 of those now.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:23 AM   #71
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Just an update: it turns out that I was not missing anything. The 8-pin connector that came with the PSU splits into two 4-pin connectors., and you're supposed to use that. Nothing in the manual tells you that, though.


...
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:35 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balderdash
Just an update: it turns out that I was not missing anything. The 8-pin connector that came with the PSU splits into two 4-pin connectors., and you're supposed to use that. Nothing in the manual tells you that, though.
ah, I remember a similar caper on a build using a Thermaltake Toughpower 750W modular PSU....!

glad to hear it's sorted!

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Old 04-08-2008, 11:58 AM   #73
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i had a funny feeling about that. oh well, best of luck getting it all together. hopefully, you won't run into any other problems.


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Old 04-12-2008, 06:40 AM   #74
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You know, it just occured to me that these new 780G motherboards would make terrific HTPCs on their own; no video card required.

They also appear to be very reasonably priced.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:03 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
You know, it just occured to me that these new 780G motherboards would make terrific HTPCs on their own; no video card required.

They also appear to be very reasonably priced.
lolz...just occurred to you! The HTPC milieu have been excited about that for a whiles now. Im sure Iv ebeen rabbiting on about it in the news thread.

I use onboard video for my main HTPC... intel, would you believe... the shame of it...!! Shared 256, works fine at 720p. As I am limited by my smallform case which has only two exp slots(being used for dvb-t and dvb-sat tuners) onboard video is a must, alas.

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Old 04-12-2008, 02:03 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7
lolz...just occurred to you! The HTPC milieu have been excited about that for a whiles now. Im sure Iv ebeen rabbiting on about it in the news thread.
I concur that Astro has been raving about it in the news thread, a lot



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Old 04-12-2008, 10:57 PM   #77
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Yeah, well, it's my fault for not paying any attention to anything that AMD is doing as of late. It's usually too damned depressing.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:16 AM   #78
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Quote:
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Yeah, well, it's my fault for not paying any attention to anything that AMD is doing as of late. It's usually too damned depressing.
I think people are starting to wrongly focus in on the brute power pissing contest.... when the CPU market is so much more than that... what % of world users want a fully decked out crysis rig?? (replete with over $1000US of GPU hardware!) ...lolz

Hence, for most users, as long as AMD can out out some competitive prices on the low to mid end stuff, then their sales will augur will. As for the server and HTPC market, AMD are deifnitely starting to look like they have a an edge.

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Old 05-29-2008, 09:09 PM   #79
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hey, real quick: i'm looking to get a new monitor so that i can finally put to rest my old 2x 17" CRT monitors (both monitors are over 10 years old). i'm looking for a widescreen monitor, probably in the 22-24" range. my main caveat is that it needs have a max resolution that can support a full 1080p resolution since i'll have my Xbox 360 hooked up to it in addition to my computer.

right now, i'm looking at the following manufacturers: Gateway, Dell, and Viewsonic. i also prefer to use Newegg, but let me know if i can get one cheaper somewhere else, too.

thanks for the help.


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How low to sink to the depths of their frame of mind

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Old 05-29-2008, 09:15 PM   #80
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Nope, Newegg is the best place to go and I would prefer ViewSonic I've had a ViewSonic monitor for 3 years and they rock.


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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