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Old 03-10-2008, 01:55 AM   #41
DeadYorick
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Id think that humanity wouldn't give up without a fight. I think they would rather destroy themselves and take the aliens with them then be 2nd place on the food chain


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Old 03-10-2008, 05:11 AM   #42
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Yeah, but it wouldn't be necessary. We have nuclear weapons. Aliens never do.
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:22 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
@Ray--actually, she(?) was pretty specific in the first post that it was humanity as a whole and not you as an individual. The only "you" here is the poor scmuck assigned the task of justifying humanity's intrinisic worth to "galactic flyswatters".
I recognised that. And I didn't felt addressed "personally". But that wasn't the point. The point was, it is a semi-optimal chosen generalisation to display humanity.

Quote:
You went off on a tangent by personalizing your own philosophical outlook vis-a-vis the 4-5 examples of human behavior mentioned in the OP.
And why shouldn't I have done this? Nowhere she said don't.

Quote:
Further, the "aliens" in question were almost of the variety that "we're giving you 10 minutes to justify why we shouldn't just eliminate you" for the purposes of expediency
Yes, I know that. You just don't travel billions of lightyears to (A) negotiate such things, or (B) do such things.



However, for the sake of Avery's happiness (and while we're into mere fiction): I think a good way to "convince" those aliens is like Bud "did" in the movie The Abyss.


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Old 03-10-2008, 05:33 AM   #44
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Ten minutes to justify why they shouldn't kill us? Alright, that's easy.

What gives them the right to decide who lives or dies? Who made them Kings of the Universe? Why are they the ones to decide our fate? Request to see the Intraspace Security Council on this. Use our veto. Attempt technobabble explanations while Riker attempts to dig up new evidence and Data overlooks the laws, searching for a loophole. Are the aliens in their proper jurisdiction? Do they have clearance from the Milky Way Galactic Authority? Is there an appeals system in place? Are the aliens willing to conduct negotiations face to face, and if so, will a 5.56mm bullet penetrate their flesh? Do they, in fact, possess the means and balls to wipe out a planet of 6.5 billion sentients, plus billions of other lifeforms? Would petitioning the Sector Group Overauthority be possible? Do they possess the same moral standards as us, and if so, then wouldn't committing such a crime without a proper due process of law be committing mass murder to an extent that would make the Nazis wince? Are we dealing with rubber foreheads or something actually alien? Does Kirk come back in time, accompanied by a posse of green alien women to save us with the power of his easily-shredded uniform? Will a well-placed Flipendo remove them from our orbital lanes? Would the Universal Council approve such an action if it were brought to their attention? Given that humanity poses no real threat without any means of FTL travel and only a mild understanding of cryogenics thus making assaults using Sleeper Ships impossible, is it really worth their effort to kill this world? Given that it is still more than possible for humanity to evolve and we only pose a threat to each other, wouldn't killing us be counterintuitive? Isn't this a violation of the Prime Directive? Would the Federation President be in favor of this action? Wouldn't it be a shame to ruin such great monuments as the Pyramids and others of the Wonders? Isn't murder wrong? Can they really justify this action as being "For the Greater Good" and if so, are they really any better than we are? If their only answer to a situation is to kill it, why were they not exterminated? Isn't this reaction a little out of proportion to the real issue? Why are they visiting Earth anyway?
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:56 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
1)I recognised that. And I didn't felt addressed "personally". But that wasn't the point. The point was, it is a semi-optimal chosen generalisation to display humanity.
2)And why shouldn't I have done this? Nowhere she said don't.

Yes, I know that. You just don't travel billions of lightyears to (A) negotiate such things, or (B) do such things.
However, for the sake of Avery's happiness (and while we're into mere fiction): I think a good way to "convince" those aliens is like Bud "did" in the movie The Abyss.
1)Well, that's the poster's right to posit their question or scenario as they wish, no?
2)change the question to be tailored to your answer, hmm.....you may have a future in politics my boy. Well, seriously, it's a free country and all, but why not answer the question first and then point out why you think the basic premise is flawed (though since Earth has no direct experience with alien civilizations, it's going to be hard to prove one way or the other).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

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Old 03-10-2008, 06:46 AM   #46
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Simple answer: We'll make great pets.

Realistic answer: We may be nothing more than mere annoyances to them, but chances are we would fight them to the last. Sure some people will roll over and allow them to defeat us, but the bravest among us will not allow ourselves to be destroyed. If they look at us from our faults, then we won't have a chance. We have art. We have love. We have compassion for those that are less fortunate.

What would keep them from destroying us? That has more to do with what they are and who they are. I mean honestly they may respect our race for our hunting prowess. They may respect our race for our adaptability. They may respect us as fellow meateaters. They may respect us as soldiers. Things that some on here may find objectionable are traits that the aliens may enjoy. They may like going with us on "tribal" hunts as we enjoy going on hunts with existing tribes. Things you may see as bad may be things they respect.
Quote:
Lets look at a few things:
I'll provide the corellary
Quote:
We will hunt on a full stomach to get a trophy.
We are proud of our accomplishments.
Quote:
We will mass slaughter animals for food.
We are efficient
Quote:
We will gas and trap bugs and critters in our houses to clean up.
We adapt our environments to fit ourselves
Quote:
We will destroy ecosystems and species to further our own aims.
We can reform an area to be more fit to allow us to survive
Quote:
We are seemingly at the top, so even many of our religions have put us above animals.
We have made ourselves better than the rest of the animals through our adaptability. Animals that are bigger/stronger/meaner/faster are overcme by our tools.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:36 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
@Ray--actually, she(?) was pretty specific in the first post that it was humanity as a whole and not you as an individual. The only "you" here is the poor scmuck assigned the task of justifying humanity's intrinisic worth to "galactic flyswatters". You went off on a tangent by personalizing your own philosophical outlook vis-a-vis the 4-5 examples of human behavior mentioned in the OP. Further, the "aliens" in question were almost of the variety that "we're giving you 10 minutes to justify why we shouldn't just eliminate you" for the purposes of expediency (we don't like you/we're building an intergalactic bypass and you're in the way/we want your stuff).
Time to Hitchhike?

We don't Have to panic then.
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:03 PM   #48
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let's just hope we don't have to deal with aliens like in 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'...


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:11 PM   #49
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Hey, that wasn't their fault. The forms had just gotten tied up in interstellar mail.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:47 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Hey, that wasn't their fault. The forms had just gotten tied up in interstellar mail.
And it's not like the plans weren't on display for several months for us to see.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:52 PM   #51
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They'd probably tell you that ignorance was no excuse and progress waits for no man(kind).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:21 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Lets say something evolves to get to a higher status than humans. If you don't believe in that, then lets say Aliens appear who are stronger than humans. If not even that, then lets say demons or angels appear who are stronger than humans.

Take a pick or make one up, but it all leads to the same question:

How would you convince advanced Aliens that it was morally wrong to kill humans?
You probably wouldn't. If they're superiorly advanced to us, there's not much likelihood of successful communications (it would seem 'primitive' to them, like cats and dogs seem 'primitive' to use, although they actually have a very complex system of body language and animals probably understand us much more than we do them, because we're too arrogant to try).

Quote:
Lets look at a few things:
-We will hunt on a full stomach to get a trophy.
That's a silly human trait, to be certain. I always say the smarter someone is the less common sense they have; this seems to fit with the entire human race fairly well. We do some really stupid things for really stupid reasons.
Quote:
-We will mass slaughter animals for food.
We've lost the inefficiency of the wild because we have 'evolved' so much that we no longer need to try to be 'superior' to other creatures. Tools are really going to be the downfall of mankind; it's the same as if you let your cat out in the wild and expected it to survive out there. It couldn't, because it's spoiled. Humans are indeed spoiled as well; take away our tools and we'd probably not even match up to ground squirrels (they'd kill me for sure! Damn squirrels... ).
Quote:
-We will gas and trap bugs and critters in our houses to clean up.
I don't kill bugs, but I like to think I'm smarter than the average human. I mean... what kind of silly person is scared of something a fraction of their size? Be scared of something with teeth; don't be scared of something that's not big enough to even bite through your skin.
Quote:
-We will destroy ecosystems and species to further our own aims.
Certainly what we do to the environment is not for our own survival. I can't imagine anyone with half a brain would suggest it would be. Human being are fully capable of surviving -- and surviving quite easily, what with our advanced adaptability and intellect -- without destroying the environment. We simply do it because it's easier, not because we need to.
Quote:
-We are seemingly at the top, so even many of our religions have put us above animals.
I'd say that's an illusion. We think we're at the top because frankly we no longer interact with nature. We simply destroy it, but that doesn't mean we're at the top of the food chain. Just imagine: human vs bear. Who's going to win? Even if you had a gun, the bear would still probably win unless you were very skilled with your human tool. Odd... the bear doesn't seem to need any tools to rip your arm clean off.

Quote:
Thats just how humans work. Now, what if the tables we seemingly controlled were turned on us? Aliens come out of the sky, and see us as just another rat in the attic. Just another spider on the wall. Just another animal worth hunting and/or eating. They seemingly care as much about us as we care about the random ants we happen to step on while walking down the street.

These Aliens or whatever are sentient. They can, for the sake of argument, communicate with us. They may, or may not have already killed humans with as much care and thought as someone ordering a steak. They choose to talk to you.

How would you convince advanced "unsympathetic" Aliens that it was morally wrong to kill humans?
Would you risk using a human religion? Would you explain natural rights? Would you tell them that they would have no right too? Would you explain that it was immoral to kill things?


"I'll just fight back with my nukes!" Is not an option. For the sake of argument, these Aliens make our nukes look like water droplets. Fighting back is not an option at all. If it must be done, all military facilities on earth have been destroyed or are being held by the invaders.

You have this chance to save yourself and possibly humanity, otherwise you will be killed with as much sympathy as an exterminator spraying roaches.
I assume since you're talking about 'turning the tables' on humans, you're guessing any 'advanced' race would treat us much the way we treat the rest of the world (and if that's the case, I find it very amusing indeed). As a result I think we'd probably get treated much the same way we treat other 'inferior' races: with disdain and indifference. I still doubt a drastically advanced race would even want to bother communicating with us. We didn't even bother trying to communicate with Africans when we first encountered them, and they're the same species as we are! We'd be sooo screwed if we were invaded by brilliant aliens.

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Old 03-10-2008, 10:36 PM   #53
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Well as someone who hunts, I hunt on a full stomach so that the growling doesn't scare the prey

They may want to keep us for that reason. Same reason we have hunting dogs. We can track. We can kill without eating the animal. So that they can eat and we can live off their scraps. We can also be a good prey should they decide to hunt us for fun. We're crafty. We're adaptable. We might actually be a challenge(same reason some people hunt bears).

They might want to keep us around for the same reason we keep monkeys around. Testing stuff on us that they wouldn't want tested on one of them.

Of course there is the off chance that they will look at the world and end up killing off the felines and canines. so that we may serve them as we did our old canine and feline overlords.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:38 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Well as someone who hunts, I hunt on a full stomach so that the growling doesn't scare the prey
I don't think stalking around the supermarket counts as hunting.

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Old 03-10-2008, 10:46 PM   #55
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Besides, we have comparatively massive supplies of fissile materials. I always knew the Arms Race would pay off in the end.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InyriForge
I don't think stalking around the supermarket counts as hunting.
Shows how much you know.... My wife goes to the supermarket.

I hunt and fish(though hunting is still a bit of a new hobby for me, and I'm ok at it). And if you think either of those are easy, I suggest you try it for a while. Especially using a bow(that's really new for me).
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:36 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
I'd say that's an illusion. We think we're at the top because frankly we no longer interact with nature. We simply destroy it, but that doesn't mean we're at the top of the food chain. Just imagine: human vs bear. Who's going to win? Even if you had a gun, the bear would still probably win unless you were very skilled with your human tool. Odd... the bear doesn't seem to need any tools to rip your arm clean off.
The bear may be stronger. But this isn't the question about who would win in a fare fight. Its who's species is stronger overall. Basically humans are more intelligent, have more of a population and could wipe out the entire species of bears if they really wanted to. Humans aren't threatened by any animals. Really animals are threatened by humans.


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Old 03-10-2008, 11:42 PM   #58
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Uh....no, Inyri. The bear would lose in a fight against a human armed with a modern gun just about all the time, unless he was fighting a vegan or an idiot. Or both. Now, yes, we would lose if unarmed, but we don't fight unarmed that often, that's WHY we're at the top of the food chain.
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:45 PM   #59
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As corinthian said. We're smart, creative. We can ousamart animals. If we're unarmed we could just make a trap out of what we can find.


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:47 PM   #60
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Precisely. The fact that we survived long enough to reach modern civilization proves our superiority over the less intelligent ones. And we've been out of any serious danger from animals for thousands of years, short of a massive animal uprising which is impossible since they aren't intelligent enough to form an alliance and even if they were, Hellfire missiles work wonders against the Bear Battalions.
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:47 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
...Humans aren't threatened by any animals......
Just animal rights advocates.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:12 AM   #62
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Who are traitors to the human species.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:20 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Uh....no, Inyri. The bear would lose in a fight against a human armed with a modern gun just about all the time, unless he was fighting a vegan or an idiot. Or both. Now, yes, we would lose if unarmed, but we don't fight unarmed that often, that's WHY we're at the top of the food chain.
Unless the guy shot the bear in the head, it'd have the shooter's arms ripped off before the bear bled out. You don't seriously think bullet = instant death, do you? Let's be realistic.

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Old 03-11-2008, 12:25 AM   #64
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Bullet doesn't necessarily equal instant death unless the aim is true, and in the case of the bear, the load powerful. If the bear is too close, it may have the advantage. Shoot enough rounds at the bear before he reaches you, he might just run off. They ain't sentient, but they're probably not too stupid either.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:27 AM   #65
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I daresay the bear is smarter than the man. I daresay most animals are smarter than us. Especially the folks up a few posts who have the deluded idea that humans are superior to other animals. I'd like to see them survive out int he wild. Then they can tell me who's superior and who's just cheating off of the inventions of the few exceptional specimens of our species.

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Old 03-11-2008, 12:27 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Bullet doesn't necessarily equal instant death unless the aim is true, and in the case of the bear, the load powerful. If the bear is too close, it may have the advantage. Shoot enough rounds at the bear before he reaches you, he might just run off. They ain't sentient, but they're probably not too stupid either.
This is why man created the semi automatic rifle. So he could down the bear easily in less time.


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Old 03-11-2008, 12:31 AM   #67
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Haha my buddy went bear hunting. He had been hunting deer pretty regularly. When he saw the bear and shot it, the bear just got REALLLLLLY ticked off. Ya see with a deer, its aim for center of mass. With a bear... kill shot, or don't bother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InyriForge
I daresay the bear is smarter than the man. I daresay most animals are smarter than us. Especially the folks up a few posts who have the deluded idea that humans are superior to other animals. I'd like to see them survive out int he wild. Then they can tell me who's superior and who's just cheating off of the inventions of the few exceptional specimens of our species.
Actually, man is smarter than a bear. Yes I can survive in the wild. In fact I can survive with only my own two hands. But then I've also been trained to do that. It doesn't take much to build a pit fall trap. I have yet to see a bear do that.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:31 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark
This is why man created the semi automatic rifle. So he could down the bear easily in less time.
Thank you for demonstrating humanity's stupidity by bringing up the "let's hunt with a semi-automatic weapon."
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Originally Posted by Tommycat
Haha my buddy went bear hunting.
I can say with confidence that your friend has got to be a moron to go bear hunting.

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Old 03-11-2008, 12:34 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by InyriForge
I daresay the bear is smarter than the man. I daresay most animals are smarter than us. Especially the folks up a few posts who have the deluded idea that humans are superior to other animals. I'd like to see them survive out int he wild. Then they can tell me who's superior and who's just cheating off of the inventions of the few exceptional specimens of our species.
It is highly debatable about how intelligent animals are. But animals survive in the wild since they evolved in the wild and were taught to survive in the wild. Humans haven't made it to the top of the food chain by just their brains but their ability to use logic in situations and their knack of not letting anyone stand in their way. Humans aren't just smart. They can use resources to their advantage

For example a human out in the wilderness meets a very angry bear. The human has no weapons at all. What he decides to do is climb a tree and make a stick-like weapon which lets him kill the bear with. Conclusion the human uses resources to his advantage while the bear just uses brute strength


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Old 03-11-2008, 12:35 AM   #70
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C'mon, IF, next you'll say that fish are smarter than people b/c they can exist in a watery environment better than the average human. If people were "bred" to live in the wild, you'd probably still have many of them living off the brain power of the brighter/wilier ones, but still having adapted to their environment. What makes the human smarter is his ability to adapt his environment to himself and not merely the other way around. And b/c, as Rakata points out above, man is able to adjust to his weaknesses by compensating for them. Can a bear do that?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:36 AM   #71
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I always knew the Arms Race would pay off in the end.
Holy ****. I don't even know what to say.



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Old 03-11-2008, 12:41 AM   #72
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I can say with confidence that your friend has got to be a moron to go bear hunting.
And you prove your ignorance.
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:11 AM   #73
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And you prove your ignorance.
Hardly. Anyone who feels the need to hunt bears needs to reevaluate their life. I would say you prove your ignorance, but gee, that's needlessly agressive.

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Old 03-11-2008, 01:24 AM   #74
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Hardly. Anyone who feels the need to hunt bears needs to reevaluate their life. I would say you prove your ignorance, but gee, that's needlessly agressive.
I have to concur with Inyri.

Also 700 GET for Inyrikins :O



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Old 03-11-2008, 01:35 AM   #75
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Naturally, because hunting has no purpose except for food. I certainly can't imagine that people might, for example, hunt down a wolf that had been slaughtering their livestock.

Anyway, it doesn't matter how big and tough the bear is, a decent caliber round with a jacketed hollow point will inflict a near-mortal wound. Three direct hits and that bear's going to either run, or die. Or both.

Jmac, if you don't know what to say, why say anything at all?
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:38 AM   #76
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Jmac, if you don't know what to say, why say anything at all?
I thought my silence communicated my point more effectively.



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Old 03-11-2008, 01:44 AM   #77
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Hardly. Anyone who feels the need to hunt bears needs to reevaluate their life. I would say you prove your ignorance, but gee, that's needlessly agressive.
Gosh, I guess my friend the engineer shouldn't have been hunting the bear that had attacked and killed his horse. You made assumptions about someone you had no information on about a hunting trip you had no idea about. An argument from ignorance. It was a statement of fact that you were ignorant of his mental state.
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:50 AM   #78
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You're telling me that taking revenge on a bear makes your friend smart? Suddenly I think he's stupider.

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Old 03-11-2008, 01:52 AM   #79
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"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had... during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species... and I realized... that you're not actually mammals.

Every mammal on this planet... instinctively develops an equilibrium with the surrounding environment. But you Humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply... and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive... is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A Virus. Human beings are a disease. A cancer of this planet. You are a plague. And we... are the cure."
-Agent Smith

By posting about human superiority in a thread where the situation is that the tables have been turn on humanity, many of you have proven enough of your ignorance of both the subject and those involved to last a lifetime. Thank you for derailing this thread and proving to me that there really is no argument to save this species from being taken over by anything bigger than us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Gosh, I guess my friend the engineer shouldn't have been hunting the bear that had attacked and killed his horse. You made assumptions about someone you had no information on about a hunting trip you had no idea about. An argument from ignorance. It was a statement of fact that you were ignorant of his mental state.
Good Job. Hope you feel proud of yourself.

Oh, and you don't get the right to call her ignorant of the subject. You gave limited information, and she assumed from there. It looks like you basically set her up to say something so that you could get the satisfaction of calling her ignorant. All you stated was that you went out and shot a bear. Next time, give more information when using it as an example in a debate.

and Inyri, your comments towards his friend certainly aren't helping either.

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Old 03-11-2008, 02:03 AM   #80
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I think we've exhausted useful discussion here, and per author request the thread is closed.


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