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Old 03-30-2008, 09:56 PM   #201
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The Japanese didn't have a problem with sending up Balloon Bombs to bomb the US civilian towns. The furthest actually got to Michigan. People conveniently forget that. Well actually its not that well known as we did our best to keep that hidden from the Japanese during the war. The Japanese were floating balloon bombs to hit the US with no cares as to what target they hit, Civilian or Military it made no difference, it was just to hit the US on their home turf.

So, Yes American Civilians were on the Japanese military's acceptable targets list.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:20 PM   #202
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I have to say that I'm really impressed with how civil this discussion has been--usually anything related to Nazis/warfare degenerates into a flame war pretty quickly, and that's not happened here. Thank you.


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Old 03-30-2008, 10:22 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taak Farst
In conclusion I think America only care for their own sorry ~snipped~ "gr8" nation. They acted like terrorists. A lot more civilians died than soldiers. To be hnest I think america would bomb anyone who even thought about attacking.
Yes, America was worried about its own self-interest. Any nations government should put it own peoples self-interest first. That said, why don’t you look at “Lend-Lease” to see just what the sorry self-centered American’s did to help nations like the United Kingdom, Soviet Union, China and France.

Those self-centered Americans not only sent material to help the Allies war effort, but volunteers went to boaster foreign nations military forces. 1st American Volunteer Group /Eagle Squadrons

Then look at what happened after the war. A nation that was truly selfish and self-centered would have tried to profit from such a tragedy. What lands did we take from Germany and Japan? What puppet government did the selfish Americans install so that that nation was controlled by Washington?



Last edited by mimartin; 03-30-2008 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 03-31-2008, 04:01 AM   #204
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Japan is guilty of many cruel war crimes. They killed more people during the "Asian holocaust" (9 million) than the Germans killed Jews (6 million). They tortured and killed POWs. They used chemical and biological weapons. Like most others, they surely had dropped the a-bomb, too.


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Old 03-31-2008, 05:27 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
The Japanese were floating balloon bombs to hit the US with no cares as to what target they hit, Civilian or Military it made no difference, it was just to hit the US on their home turf.
I don't think they were specifically targeting civilians - there's no way of knowing where such an unstable, and uncontrollable device could land - but I think the Japanese Navy would have hoped to hit military targets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Japan is guilty of many cruel war crimes. They killed more people during the "Asian holocaust" (9 million) than the Germans killed Jews (6 million). They tortured and killed POWs. They used chemical and biological weapons. Like most others, they surely had dropped the a-bomb, too.
While I'm not defending the Japanese for their committal of war crimes, don't forget that, while not to the same scale, there were many war crimes committed by Allied forces as well.

Allied War Crimes

I know it mentions the A-Bombs there, and not everything on there is 'agreed' as a war crime, but the allies weren't completely innocent either.

Last edited by Astor; 03-31-2008 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:39 AM   #206
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To sum it up, you could have switched either side with each other and nothing had changed.


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Old 03-31-2008, 08:12 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
While I'm not defending the Japanese for their committal of war crimes, don't forget that, while not to the same scale, there were many war crimes committed by Allied forces as well.

Allied War Crimes

I know it mentions the A-Bombs there, and not everything on there is 'agreed' as a war crime, but the allies weren't completely innocent either.
Yeah, this what makes the conversation more complex, because like you say warcrimes occurred between the allied and axis forces during WWII, hence it is hard to pin a "definate blame" for some of the atrocities committed during WWII. The Americans did help enormously to the allied war effort during WWII, of which definately pushed the war in the allies favour, but even the Americans weren't completely innocent from War Crimes - a re-ocurring factor that was also seen in wars such as Vietnam. The way i see it is that the things that happened, happened and nothing will ever change this fact; i just hope that humanity can learn from past mistakes - but history does sometimes have a history of repeating itself and it does make you wonder if Humanity will ever "get it right". This however can be seen that if humans are waging war against one another all of the time, then we really aren't getting it right, and never have done since humanities existence. But i suppose there is no "guideline" of the world of how Humanity interacts with one another.
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:15 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
The Japanese were floating balloon bombs to hit the US with no cares as to what target they hit, Civilian or Military it made no difference, it was just to hit the US on their home turf.
I don't think they were specifically targeting civilians - there's no way of knowing where such an unstable, and uncontrollable device could land - but I think the Japanese Navy would have hoped to hit military targets.
Um.. they didn't care if it hit military or civilian targets. It was all the same to them. When you commit your whole county to total war, you kinda say that the civilians are involved in the war. I mean our civilians were mostly committed to the war. Their civilians were committed to the war. Our civilians were involved in making the bombs dropped on them. Their civilians were involved in making the bombs they used on us.

Lets face it, War sucks and we shouldn't want to do it. world wide war sucked even more so, and we should never want to do that again. An interesting side effect of the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was showing us just how horrible a nuclear weapon could be. <note: pure speculation>It may have been a leading contributor to the fact that the US and USSR never fully committed to an all out war(namely that whole MAD thing)
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:52 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Japan is guilty of many cruel war crimes. They killed more people during the "Asian holocaust" (9 million) than the Germans killed Jews (6 million). They tortured and killed POWs. They used chemical and biological weapons. Like most others, they surely had dropped the a-bomb, too.
Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right?"




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Old 03-31-2008, 10:10 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
what, are you channeling Rodney King now (can't we all just get along?)? Seriously, I agree that it's most unfortunate that people can't get along and see the bigger picture. It's kind of hard, though, when so many people come from so many seemingly diametrically opposed povs. We may "get it right" someday, but most likely not in our lifetime.
Rodney King=cultural reference which I do not share. It was simply an observation, which I believe you will find holds true throughout this thread.

"Seeing the bigger picture" is a dangerous concept:/ Because one will often forget about the little man...



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Old 03-31-2008, 10:41 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthDingDong
Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right?"
Heard me saying something else?


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Old 03-31-2008, 10:47 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Heard me saying something else?
Look at the quote.




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Old 03-31-2008, 10:57 AM   #213
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You should look at the quote, DDD.

You say "two wrongs don't make a right," but all I see is Ray stating some facts. Nowhere does he advocate anything in the quote you provided; he just mentioned some things that the Japanese did to the Chinese. Maybe you quoted the wrong part?

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Old 03-31-2008, 11:06 AM   #214
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I was merely pointing out that even though Japan did all those terrible things, it still doesn't make the retaliation in the form of nukes justified.

I was not implying that Ray said that the Japanese deserved it.

Sorry if that's how it came across.




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Old 03-31-2008, 11:07 AM   #215
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There's really no sense in saying "two wrongs don't make a right" if he wasn't implying it, is there? A question, not condescension.

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Old 03-31-2008, 11:09 AM   #216
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Like I said, I was just pointing out that even though Japan did all those things, it didn't make Hiroshima and Nagasaki right.




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Old 03-31-2008, 11:13 AM   #217
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Hm. To me the quote somehow implies I said something like that.


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Old 03-31-2008, 11:44 AM   #218
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As I said in a previous post, sorry if that's how it came across.




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Old 03-31-2008, 06:51 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Hoon
Rodney King=cultural reference which I do not share. It was simply an observation, which I believe you will find holds true throughout this thread.
Was worth a shot. Never know what people know/don't know about in the age of the internet. He basically ran afoul of the law and filed a case of police brutality. In one of his public appearances he uttered the line "can't we all just get along". A statement which pretty much mirrors your own sentiment.

Quote:
"Seeing the bigger picture" is a dangerous concept:/ Because one will often forget about the little man...
I suppose it depends on exactly what the bigger picture actually is, doesn't it? I figured in this context the bigger pic was the survival of man, great or small.


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Old 03-31-2008, 08:52 PM   #220
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What puppet government did the selfish Americans install so that that nation was controlled by Washington?
A quick one. The United States directly ruled Japan, under the tulage of General MacArthur, for 6-7 years. Having the US dictate to your country what to do sounds like a puppet government to me, even if it is 'unselfish'.

Maybe the US was a tad too merciful? While Germany cracks down on Neo-Nazism, politicans unoffically commerate suspected Japanese war criminals lay buried in religious shrine(well, 'actual' war criminals, those people were tried and shot by the Americans and later buried in a religious shrine). While Germany censor games with the Hindu symbol of peace and love, the Japanese government allow for offical textbooks that justify the Japanese war, and explained that Peral Harbor occured due to an American oil embargo on Japan. And this is supposed to be a 'puppet government'?

Of course, the fact remains that it is okay for this to happen as long as Japan doesn't actually do anything aggressive. And it won't, for the foreseeable future (even if they do declare their defense force a real-life army). Japan is still pretty left-wing, altough you do got a right-wing compontent that reguarly win elections. It's actually pretty minor, when you think about it, and I rather bury silly arguments like this. Japan's a free country that will never return back to Japanism. But for crying out loud...


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Old 03-31-2008, 09:09 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
the Japanese government allow for offical textbooks that justify the Japanese war, and explained that Peral Harbor occured due to an American oil embargo on Japan.
I actually agree with the textbooks that say this. However, the embargo was due to their expansionist pursuits so the actual cause of the war was Japan’s invasion of China. It was somewhat silly of the United States to place an embargo against an island nation and not expect them to attack. Of course, many believe that was Mr. Roosevelt’s plan all along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
A quick one. The United States directly ruled Japan, under the tulage of General MacArthur, for 6-7 years. Having the US dictate to your country what to do sounds like a puppet government to me, even if it is 'unselfish'.
I was speaking more long term. They did not intend to repeat mistakes made after the First World War in Germany so an occupation force was a forgone conclusion of the surrender. MacArthur actually wrote most of the Japanese constitution once the Japanese could not agree on its terms, I find that interesting given how rigorous the document is and that it has never been amended.



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Old 03-31-2008, 09:17 PM   #222
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I actually agree with the textbooks that say this. However, the embargo was due to their expansionist pursuits so the actual cause of the war was Japan’s invasion of China. It was somewhat silly of the United States to place an embargo against an island nation and not expect them to attack. Of course, many believe that was Mr. Roosevelt’s plan all along.
I may also agree with that interpretion, however, I doubt many people here would agree with that, which is why I brought it up. However, I am far more concerned that those offical textbooks also made several attempts to justify World War II, minmizling the whole possiblity of war crimes and such, and I think more emphasis needs to be worried about that justification.

Eh. I don't want to appear anti-Japanese, I'm just shocked that other people who may be rather worried about this doesn't know it at all.


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Old 03-31-2008, 10:26 PM   #223
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not long ago i watch a show called the last mission. it was the last bombing mission of the war. and no it wasn't the second a-bomb. i think mission took place like three days after. in short the mission ended the war. as there was attempted coup going on in tokyo. thanks to the bombers passing over tokyo the coup failed........lack of power. the coup wiould succeeded if the power stayed on.


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Old 03-31-2008, 10:53 PM   #224
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not long ago i watch a show called the last mission. it was the last bombing mission of the war. and no it wasn't the second a-bomb.
It comes from a book titled The Last Mission: The Secret History of World War II's Final Battle by Jim Smith and Malcolm McConnell. Jim Smith was actually a crewmember on one of the American bombers. I have not read the book, but my stepfather who is a history buff and a lover of all things Japanese has read the book. I may need to borrow his copy as it sounds interesting.


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Old 04-07-2008, 05:56 PM   #225
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I believed that we bombed them because they would not give up. We were going to have to invade Japan to stop them. The Allies predicted casualties for that operation would be close to 1,000,000 of our men. And the Japanese government was preparing the civilian population to fight us. Millions of Japanese civilians would have died. Now, I am not saying that using the bombs was right in a moral sense. But war does not have morals, and we had to do it. That is why we should not fight wars: because everyone suffers.


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Old 04-14-2008, 12:37 AM   #226
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^Going off what he said, It wasn't nescecarilly (know i spelled that wrong) the best course off action, but it seemed better than the alterntive of millions of civilians and soldiers dying. I think that a better course off action would have been to take out, i.e assassinate, thier power base, like the military dictators, and the one leader dude whos name escapes me.

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Old 04-14-2008, 04:41 AM   #227
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You don't mean Emperor Hirohito, do you? Another "famous" Japanese leader was Tojo, though he was relieved of his postion (Prime Minister) in 1944.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 04-14-2008, 12:30 PM   #228
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^ It was Tojo.

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Old 04-15-2008, 12:11 AM   #229
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Well, considering we didn't have any real assets in Japan to do that then, it would have been difficult/impossible. Adm. Yamamoto was essentially assassinated when we got tipped off that he was flying under light escort and his planes were pounced by American fighters (p-38s) that shot down the bomber he was flying in at the time (no survivors).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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