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Old 04-26-2008, 11:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
There is nothing civilized about it. It is the order of nature. Look at the first thing JediRevan wrote about that she is a mother and a grandmother, I believe she is putting herself in the shoes of the victims parent or grandparents. She is protecting her young, just like any good parent would do. So it does not have to make logical sense, like a mocking bird protect its nest by a attacking a two hundred pound man, but it is the way of nature. I cannot say I wouldn’t react just as harshly if such an act like that was against someone close to me. I would like to believe that I am above that, but I just don’t know.
It is not that pedophilia isn't a horrible crime; it is, and possiby the worst you can commit; but one must be very careful, that you don't become that which you are fighting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedrich Nietzsche
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you."
In my opinion you should train yourself not to make very important decisions when angry; otherwise you may well end up doing something you later regret. The whol judicial process should not be built up on emotion or revenge, but justice and the protection of the weak.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:22 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Good job Jebus! I expect that this man was arrested? What a dumb question, of course he was arrested.
Not necessarily.



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Old 04-27-2008, 04:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Thats really civilised! It makes about as much sense as responding to a genocide, by commiting genocide, on those who did the first genocide.

I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it justice for the innocent victims and their families. Considering the fact that in some of the prisons there are sex offenders and pedophiles that are actually given drugs for erectile dysfunction and the drugs are being paid for by law abiding citizens that pay taxes.


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Old 04-27-2008, 04:49 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediRevan
I wouldn't call it genocide. I would call it justice for the innocent victims and their families. Considering the fact that in some of the prisons there are sex offenders and pedophiles that are actually given drugs for erectile dysfunction and the drugs are being paid for by law abiding citizens that pay taxes.
Justice? Do you really think that say a child murderer being executed or tortured to death in anyway brings back the dead child? In truth all it does is bring you down to their level.

Me from earlier in the discussion;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7
Forgiveness is vital as the alternative is hate and consider what that does; Bitterness, blame anger and hatred; for humans hatred only destroys the hater; the object of their hatred is either unaware or doesn’t care that they are hated. People should let go of negative emotions such as these; it will only lead down a dark path, as the hater will only become the hated after they do that which caused them to hate in the first place. It only forms a destructive circle.
There is a distinction between forgiving and forgetting however; pedophiles should be locked up so they can never re-offend, and as a punishment for what they have done. What your talking about is quite frankly trying to fight evil with evil. Indeed the way your thinking is why the world is such a horrbile place; lets take Isreal and Palestine for example, the innocent die, because neither side can forgive the other, and the anger and resentment, and need for revenge aka 'justice', just leads to more and more suffering.

What your talking about is cold hard revenge; should a pedophile be put to death? That is decision for the staten and not in the bounds of this discussion. What your talking about is cold, hard revenge. Many pedophiles were abused as children; you ever considered that?



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:09 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
I don't see what the problem would be with executing these scum.
Because people like to think that we're above such barbarity, and we aren't. Plus revenge is different from justice. It's one thing to see a murderer,pedophile etc. be put in a maximum security prison for the rest of their lives and have to live with the horrible act they committed(unless they're psychopathic, but that doesn't apply to everyone) but its another thing to just execute someone simply for vengeance's sake.


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Old 04-27-2008, 09:12 PM   #46
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Putting them in with the general population of a prison would be justice considering some of the inmates in prison do have children, nieces, and nephews. I believe it could be called street justice.


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Old 04-27-2008, 09:28 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
I don't see what the problem would be with executing these scum.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression you considered yourself a Christian? Jesus considered these 'scum' so scumful, he died for them same as everyone else.

Lets have a quick review of a few things;

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Originally Posted by Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
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Originally Posted by Luke 6:26-35
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 15:11-13
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.S. Lewis
"Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger."
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Originally Posted by Matthew 23:3-5
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

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Old 04-27-2008, 09:34 PM   #48
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Your point being...? They still deserve to pay for what they have done. Sure, it won't bring the child or the child's innocence back,~snipped~ these days the worst they have to worry about is prison time, we're not even castrating 'em.

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Old 04-27-2008, 09:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Your point being...? They still deserve to pay for what they have done. Sure, it won't bring the child or the child's innocence back, ~snipped~ these days the worst they have to worry about is prison time, we're not even castrating 'em.
Yeah, I'm sure that is exactly as Jesus would have acted.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

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Old 04-27-2008, 10:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Justice? Do you really think that say a child murderer being executed or tortured to death in anyway brings back the dead child? In truth all it does is bring you down to their level.

Me from earlier in the discussion;



There is a distinction between forgiving and forgetting however; pedophiles should be locked up so they can never re-offend, and as a punishment for what they have done. What your talking about is quite frankly trying to fight evil with evil. Indeed the way your thinking is why the world is such a horrbile place; lets take Isreal and Palestine for example, the innocent die, because neither side can forgive the other, and the anger and resentment, and need for revenge aka 'justice', just leads to more and more suffering.

What your talking about is cold hard revenge; should a pedophile be put to death? That is decision for the staten and not in the bounds of this discussion. What your talking about is cold, hard revenge. Many pedophiles were abused as children; you ever considered that?
Tell that to the parents of a young girl here in Florida that was kidnapped by a sexual predator. He tortured and then raped her before burying her in his parents back yard. That same pedophile tried to make the jury believe he was illiterate and mentally handicapped. I have to live with the daily dread of another one of these animals moving into my neighborhood near a park where children play or wait for their school bus.
How would you respond if one of these animals attacked your child?

No where in the Old Testament or New Testament is pedophilia condoned. The bible tells us to protect the children because they are gift from God. It doesn't say not to punish those who harm a child.


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Old 04-27-2008, 10:13 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediRevan
Tell that to the parents of a young girl here in Florida that was kidnapped by a sexual predator. He tortured and then raped her before burying her in his parents back yard. That same pedophile tried to make the jury believe he was illiterate and mentally handicapped. I have to live with the daily dread of another one of these animals moving into my neighborhood near a park where children play or wait for their school bus.
How would you respond if one of these animals attacked your child?
Why are you presumptious enough to think that I have not been in similar a situation? I am not a parent, however I have seen the effects of both rape and child abuse; both are terrible and I don't think an individual who suffers them ever fully recovers. There is a guy who I know raped one of my best friends, and he's got away with it - now, lets put it like this, if I wanted him to disapear, I would know who to ring up. However, I bear him no malice, my concern is with looking after my friend; and I feel deeply sorry for any individual, that is so twisted that they feel the need to abuse children or rape woman. They should be locked up; but me taking the law into my own hands makes me no different to him.

Also the statistical likelyhood of a Child being kidnapped is extremely long; in the UK the figers are not much different to 50 years ago, however I cannot speak for the US, though I would assume the odds are still very long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediRevan
No where in the Old Testament or New Testament is pedophilia condoned. The bible tells us to protect the children because they are gift from God. It doesn't say not to punish those who harm a child.
Please indicate at any point when I said that pedophiles shouldn't be put to justice? Re-read my posts; you may notice that I say they should be locked up and not given the opportunity to re-offend.

Me earlier;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan7
Agreed, I feel sorry for pedophiles, but once they have offended I do not think they should be given the chance to re-offend. I think by violating a child, they loose the right to their freedoms.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:17 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
Why are you presumptious enough to think that I have not been in similar a situation? I am not a parent, however I have seen the effects of both rape and child abuse; both are terrible and I don't think an individual who suffers them ever fully recovers. There is a guy who I know raped one of my best friends, and he's got away with it - now, lets put it like this, if I wanted him to disapear, I would know who to ring up. However, I bear him no malice, my concern is with looking after my friend; and I feel deeply sorry for any individual, that is so twisted that they feel the need to abuse children or rape woman. They should be locked up; but me taking the law into my own hands makes me no different to him.

Also the statistical likelyhood of a Child being kidnapped is extremely long; in the UK the figers are not much different to 50 years ago, however I cannot speak for the US, though I would assume the odds are still very long.
Not. Children are kidnapped or reported missing on a daily basis in the United States. From what I have read from reports of different countries, the reports of missing or kidnapped children have not dropped drastically in any way, shape, or form.

Any man that would rape a child deserves street justice and nothing less. He is no better than a rabid animal on the loose attacking people.


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Old 04-27-2008, 10:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediRevan
Any man that would rape a child deserves street justice and nothing less. He is no better than a rabid animal on the loose attacking people.
~snipped and what happens if you happen to have 'street justicied' the wrong guy?

You may also like to note, seeing as you feel the need to try and quote the New and Old Testaments at me, that Jesus said to obey the governing authorities; street justice is not obeying the government; its taking the law into your own hands; which frankly is all you've been talking about since you entered the thread.

EDIT: Also let me clarrify; me arguing that pedophiles should not be put in with the general population of a prison, is not me advocating pedophilia, quite how you can possibly interpret it as such is beyond me. Please also indicate at anypoint where I said the Bible was pro pedophilia; that was a completely illogicall comment.

Pedophiles should be locked up for life; they should however be given due-procces. Also dehumanising anyone is a strictly bad idea; as you only end up doing that to yourself.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

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Old 04-27-2008, 10:37 PM   #54
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~

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
~snipped~, and what happens if you happen to have 'street justicied' the wrong guy?

You may also like to note, seeing as you feel the need to try and quote the New and Old Testaments at me, that Jesus said to obey the governing authorities; street justice is not obeying the government; its taking the law into your own hands; which frankly is all you've been talking about since you entered the thread.

EDIT: Also let me clarrify; me arguing that pedophiles should not be put in with the general population of a prison, is not me advocating pedophilia, quite how you can possibly interpret it as such is beyond me. Please also indicate at anypoint where I said the Bible was pro pedophilia; that was a completely illogicall comment.

Pedophiles should be locked up for life; they should however be given due-procces. Also dehumanising anyone is a strictly bad idea; as you only end up doing that to yourself.
No where in any of my posts have I ever stated that anyone in this thread advocates pedophilia. As for acting like a rabid animal or bringing myself down to their level, I am not acting in this manner at all. I may come across as a lioness protecting her cubs but what mother or grandmother wouldn't?


True Toral

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Old 04-27-2008, 11:48 PM   #55
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OK, folks, let's not promote illegal things like 'street justice'.


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Old 04-27-2008, 11:57 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
OK, folks, let's not promote illegal things like 'street justice'.
Sounds like a cop movie. One man. One goal: To avenge his partner. By any means necessary.



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Old 04-28-2008, 12:21 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I am not a parent
This seems to be a common thread among those that ask for child rapists not being thrown in with the general population. As a parent, I would give my life for my children. I would go without for my child to have. I would do anything for my child to have the peace of mind that the bad person will never come around again.

Edited to add: Yes, I know that this is not very moral of me. I admit that it isn't civilized or proper. Lets face it, it is purely the revenge mentality that leads me to my feelings on this matter. It is that animal side of me that I try to keep bottled up, but will always remain a part of me.

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Old 04-28-2008, 12:38 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Yeah, I'm sure that is exactly as Jesus would have acted.
Actually, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke 17:2, King James Bible
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
:/


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Old 04-28-2008, 08:59 AM   #59
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The governing authority had allowed these animals back into the mainstream to continue their sick lives.


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Old 04-28-2008, 12:05 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
This seems to be a common thread among those that ask for child rapists not being thrown in with the general population. As a parent, I would give my life for my children. I would go without for my child to have. I would do anything for my child to have the peace of mind that the bad person will never come around again.

Edited to add: Yes, I know that this is not very moral of me. I admit that it isn't civilized or proper. Lets face it, it is purely the revenge mentality that leads me to my feelings on this matter. It is that animal side of me that I try to keep bottled up, but will always remain a part of me.
It is not that I do not understand the anger towards pedophiles (or others who commit atrocities) however, purley because you cannot seperate from the emotion of the subject is why you shouldn't allow yourself to make an emotional decision. And as such allow someone else to have juristiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotle
To give a satisfactory decision as to the truth it is necessary to be rather an arbitrator than a party to the dispute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo
Actually, yes.
Quote:
Luke 17:2, King James Bible
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
I'll let people draw their own conculsions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bible NIV Luke 16:19 - Luke 17:10
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Luke 17
Sin, Faith, Duty
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

7"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "

So, selectively quoting from the worst translation of the Bible and out of context = advocates torture?

~snipped~



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

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Old 04-28-2008, 12:28 PM   #61
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And what happens when that's not enough to protect the innocent? Every couple of years in the US, a story gets printed in the paper about some sexual predator who got out of prison then went on a raping and murdering spree. This is usually after society is supposed to have guarantees that the innocent are protected from them by them being locked away, and often committed for mental problems that make them a serious danger to all society.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see unnecessicary cruelty done to criminals. But I'd happily sacrifice 100 pedophiles to save 1 child, or 1 million to save my own. And maybe that's not the best way to be, but it beats ignoring the problem too.


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Old 04-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Jvstice
And what happens when that's not enough to protect the innocent? Every couple of years in the US, a story gets printed in the paper about some sexual predator who got out of prison then went on a raping and murdering spree. This is usually after society is supposed to have guarantees that the innocent are protected from them by them being locked away, and often committed for mental problems that make them a serious danger to all society.
Defending yourself is different to mob justice, and what you are talking about is the failure of the Prison service; if that individual has been put through due process and escaped; an individual can do what they deem necassary to defend themsleves and their children.

There is however a big reason to have the pedophiles, rapists and serial killers kept seperatly; you can put them in a maximum security facility.

However I will never advocate mob justice as what happens if you get the wrong guy?

Do you for example agree with lynching? If you do go get yourself a white hat; I'm sure you can find some fellow people who think along the same lines...



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Old 04-28-2008, 12:40 PM   #63
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No. I don't agree with mob justice for the very reason of sometimes getting the wrong guy. It's stupid to not care whether it's the innocent or guilty that have reason to fear law or retribution.

On the other hand though, I don't see why you put so much effort into defending the guilty in with those who are mistakenly accused. If they are guilty, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Christ preached personal forgiveness. That has nothing to do with a government's duties. A government's job first and foremost is to make sure that their citizens are kept safe and able to live their lives.

When other people threaten their lives, its' a government's job to intervene to protect those that can't protect themselves. If those individuals who want to harm others dont' take warning by being separated from those they want to harm, and still seek to do more harm, then what? You've pretty much ruled out their being able to act effectively to deal with a continuing threat.


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Old 04-28-2008, 12:47 PM   #64
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On the other hand though, I don't see why you put so much effort into defending the guilty in with those who are mistakenly accused. If they are guilty, punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Christ preached personal forgiveness. That has nothing to do with a government's duties. A government's job first and foremost is to make sure that their citizens are kept safe and able to live their lives.

When other people threaten their lives, its' a government's job to intervene to protect those that can't protect themselves. If those individuals who want to harm others dont' take warning by being separated from those they want to harm, and still seek to do more harm, then what? You've pretty much ruled out their being able to act effectively to deal with a continuing threat.
Please indicate at any point in the thread when I have said pedophiles shouldn't be locked up; please indicate at any point in the thread when I said due process shouldn't occur.

~snipped~

Here it is; Pedophiles, rapists and serial killers should be LOCKED UP AND NEVER LET OUT. However; justice is not about revenge, or doing to the crinimal that which they did to another. Justice is about punishment and securing society.

The above indivuals do hateful things, and should be imprisioned for the protection of society, on the other hand, that does not give society the right to treat them less than humanly, as how else are the above going to change?

N.b. even if an individual has 'reformed' they should still be locked up, as once that crime has been commited they should not be given the opportunity to re-ofend. Hope that clarifys.



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Old 04-28-2008, 12:52 PM   #65
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It is not that I do not understand the anger towards pedophiles (or others who commit atrocities) however, purley because you cannot seperate from the emotion of the subject is why you shouldn't allow yourself to make an emotional decision. And as such allow someone else to have juristiction.
People that have children or someone they loved victimized in such away are not suppose to let emotion into the decision making? Is that even possible? How would anyone possibility avoid being angry at the perpetrator? How would anyone not feel the unwarranted guilt of not being able to protect a loved one? Good people will do evil things in order to destroy the evil that has harmed their family. Hopefully, they never get the chance and the real authorities handle the problem and get the criminal off the streets. Is it right to take justice into your own hands? No. Is it dangerous? Yes, what if the vigilante justice gets the wrong person. However, I am not going to fault anyone for protecting children and I don’t know what I would do in their place and neither does anyone else.


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Old 04-28-2008, 01:03 PM   #66
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I'd agree that that society sholdn't have the right to treat them less humanely if it's just a matter of revenge.

I'd disagree with the premise that society has no right to treat them inhumanely under all circumstances. Bill Clinton once said that if you keep trying the same things that don't work to solve your problems, and never learn to try something new, it's a sign of insanity.

When I was 11 in 1984, a drunk driver smashed into our car, killing half my family. The driver of the other car was sentenced for manslaughter, a crime that has a 30 year sentence under Florida law, where I grew up. About 7 years later, I heard that he was resentenced for the same crime. About 5 years ago, I was going through my dad's attic since he gave me permission to get what I wanted, and got his deposition of the events. In it, my dad said that the guy that ran into our car had already been sentenced for the same crime before he ran into our car as well.

This was in 1984, before there was a wide concensus in our society that our prison's have major systemic flaws. Things have worsened, and it's not just a minority that see a problem any more.

In the 1980's and 1990's the U.S. had more people locked away than any other nation but the Soviet Union. I kind of think the answer is not simply to build bigger prisons, nor is it to simply have the law forgiving murderers over the heads of their victims' families.

Our justice system is broken. It's not protecting our citizens and hasn't for a long time. What that means should be done, I'm not sure either. But maybe throwing the pedos in with the other criminals is a step in the right direction. We wouldn't be responding to monsterous acts by becoming monsters that way, and they wouldnt' be doing that again soon even with our prisons' revolving doors.


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Old 04-28-2008, 01:08 PM   #67
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Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin. Besides, it's not like their isn't precedent for rape being punishable by execution.
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:09 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
I'd agree that that society sholdn't have the right to treat them less humanely if it's just a matter of revenge.

I'd disagree with the premise that society has no right to treat them inhumanely under all circumstances. Bill Clinton once said that if you keep trying the same things that don't work to solve your problems, and never learn to try something new, it's a sign of insanity.

When I was 11 in 1984, a drunk driver smashed into our car, killing half my family. The driver of the other car was sentenced for manslaughter, a crime that has a 30 year sentence under Florida law, where I grew up. About 7 years later, I heard that he was resentenced for the same crime. About 5 years ago, I was going through my dad's attic since he gave me permission to get what I wanted, and got his deposition of the events. In it, my dad said that the guy that ran into our car had already been sentenced for the same crime before he ran into our car as well.

This was in 1984, before there was a wide concensus in our society that our prison's have major systemic flaws. Things have worsened, and it's not just a minority that see a problem any more.

In the 1980's and 1990's the U.S. had more people locked away than any other nation but the Soviet Union. I kind of think the answer is not simply to build bigger prisons, nor is it to simply have the law forgiving murderers over the heads of their victims' families.

Our justice system is broken. It's not protecting our citizens and hasn't for a long time. What that means should be done, I'm not sure either. But maybe throwing the pedos in with the other criminals is a step in the right direction. We wouldn't be responding to monsterous acts by becoming monsters that way, and they wouldnt' be doing that again soon even with our prisons' revolving doors.
I am sorry to hear about what happened you in 1984. I would be of the opinion that the above man should have been imprisoned for a rather large ammount of time; never allowed a driving licence back, and if ever caught again would be sent back to prison for the remainder of his life. Do not think me being soft on justice, but I have certain standards, and also think many who are criminals are those who are societies most unloved both before and after they commit their crimes.

On the prisons side; I still do not think the worst criminals should be kept in the normal population for a reason as hinted above; if they are in a normal prison population it is easier to escape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Justice and Vengeance are two sides of the same coin. Besides, it's not like their isn't precedent for rape being punishable by execution.
Firstly my argumentation against the death penalty isn't that I de facto disagree but because there have been many examples of the wrong man being executed. Pardoning someone who has been killed for something they haven't done I'm sure doesn't bother them too much.

Secondly as a Christian, I still do not see how you can support personal vengeance, as it is taking the law into your own hands. Which at least to me seems to be what most people here are advocating. The state taking vengeance is a slightyl different matter; however I do not think eye for eye in reality solves anything, and it also goes very counter to the teachings of a certain Jesus.

Here are the definitions from my Oxford Ultimate Word finder...

Justice: 1. just conduct 2. fairness 3 the exercise of authoriy in the maintenance of right.

Vegeance: punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for wrong to oneself or person to a person.



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

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Old 04-28-2008, 01:37 PM   #69
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TBH, I really see it as a matter of whatever it takes to end a threat. It's not really about making someone pay enough, or being too merciful, or not showing enough mercy in our legal system. But will it end the threat without becoming a new threat to other innocents (by false accusations, presumptions of guilt, and the like)?

Should punishment be humane? In that context, absolutely to the extent that it doesn't interfere with protecting the people, and sending the message that this type of predatory behavior on children will not be tolerated. If people really are genetically predispositioned to pedophilia we're not doing any children they might have any favors by allowing people sexually attracted to underage children to breed and to raise people they can abuse with government sanction because they are their own children.

Further, if they are predispositioned to become predators because of a cycle of abuse, that also should make them ineligable to raise families.

And if being humane to predators is shown not to be effective, we shouldn't hesitate to execute them for the same reason. We should keep looking until we find something that works. And no avenue should remain unexplored if it offers a possible solution.


A government's first priority has to be to protect its people who are not looking to harm its other citizens. Otherwise there is no rule of law, nor point to observing the rules of society for a vast majority of those who live in any society.


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:53 PM   #70
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There's been a discussion on the merits of retributive punishment in Kavar's before. While it is mostly about execution, some of the ideas within may be useful here.


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Old 04-28-2008, 02:46 PM   #71
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I have no intention of taking the law into my own personal hands. That's what the Gub'ment is for.
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Old 04-28-2008, 05:59 PM   #72
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Temp-closed due to reports--I'll review when I get home unless another mod gets to it sooner.

Edit: I'm re-opening after doing a fair amount of clean-up. If your posts disappeared it's because they got moderated.

Here's what I don't want to see. I don't want to see anyone advocating vigilantism, tempting as it may be. I don't want to see people calling each other animals--that's flame-baiting. Don't snipe at each other without first reading (and maybe re-reading) what someone else has said--you might find that you're mad about something you thought the person said when they didn't say it at all.

This is an emotionally charged topic--take a deep breath and think about how it would feel to be on the receiving end of your post before you hit the 'reply' button, please.

Carry on.


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