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Old 04-22-2008, 12:35 AM   #81
Serpentine Cougar
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I think mankind's worst mistake was eating the forbidden fruit, and the sin that introduced into the world.

Regarding religion being the worst mistake, it's not so much the religion that is flawed than the people following the religion are flawed. That's why they need the religion in the first place. As Mohandas Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." If people followed their religion perfectly, there wouldn't be any mistakes of mankind, because we'd all be perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravnas
Yay!!! Communism is the answer
Like religion, if true communism was followed perfectly, it would be a good thing. But it doesn't seem like that's happened yet.


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Old 04-22-2008, 12:55 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Do you think that religious people who did negative things only acted as they did because they were religious? It cuts both ways in this case.
You didn't answer my question, but in the interest of being a good sport, I will answer yours:

No, I do not think this is true for most cases and it has never been my contention that they did. My argument has been that religion does allow them a "free ride" and that in some cases religion does instigate the behavior. In almost all cases, religion is partially culpable because if you look in the applicable holy text you will find a verse telling the person to do what they are now in trouble for doing.

(note: "religion" is used rather vaguely here. Let's assume that we're discussing the big three and not Buddhism, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
In regards to condom usage and the Church, the Church isn't forcing people to have sex, so there's no way this can be considered criminally reckless or irresponsible.
It is influencing them not to take reasonable precautions. We can put aside philosophical differences regarding whether people should have sex or not and operate from reality, i.e. they are.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If they did force people to have sex unprotected, then they would be culpable of malfeasance. However, people have a choice whether or not to engage in sex.
Indeed. It would be be great if they could get sufficient education so that they also felt as though they had a choice to be protected or not. Let's stick with reality please.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Promoting the only way to avoid an STD is neither reckless nor irresponsible.
Agreed, unless the person taking the responsibility for educating is also guilty of intentionally misleading their audience about public health information. Then it is reckless and irresponsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Condoms, for all the good they can do in this situation, are not 100% fool proof, unfortunately, though I think they're a big help in that department.
I don't think anyone will contest this. However this is like saying say that trapeze artists should not use a safety net because they sometimes fail or that people should not wear seat belts because they sometimes don't work. Sure, no one has to drive, but amazingly a lot of people do anyway.

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The 'intentional holes in the condoms' thing is just ludicrous.
Most of what these people are being told is ludicrous.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:56 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
I think mankind's worst mistake was eating the forbidden fruit, and the sin that introduced into the world.

Regarding religion being the worst mistake, it's not so much the religion that is flawed than the people following the religion are flawed. That's why they need the religion in the first place. As Mohandas Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." If people followed their religion perfectly, there wouldn't be any mistakes of mankind, because we'd all be perfect.


Like religion, if true communism was followed perfectly, it would be a good thing. But it doesn't seem like that's happened yet.
Exactly, a system like Communism can only be achieved through common understanding and a true desire among man to work together, which is a problem as the necessary criteria to meet those goals require a change on how is man viewed and how they would act, which would conflict with the nature of man that religion has established. The Bolshevik revolution in the early 20th century did not lead to communism contrary to popular belief but to some sort of despotic state with a communistic twist.


Regrets are for horseshoes and handbags.

Last edited by Ravnas; 04-22-2008 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:31 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Let's see--how many people have been allegedly harmed/killed? 100,000? A million? Maybe a couple million?

Let's compare that to the good done by one single Catholic hospital in Milwaukee...
First I want you to know that when I say that religion is mankind's worst mistake I don't mean specifically Christianity, or any other religion, but rather all of them. As for the allegedly harmed/killed, as you put it, there's nothing alleged about it, people have been harmed/killed and the only thing historians aren't sure of is the number of victims.
Some examples of religion based crimes would be:
- people being sacrificed to the gods in ancient times, including ancient Greece, Egypt and Rome. In Egypt and Rome as far as I know some rulers were considered to be gods and people were killed for offending them.
- the Medieval and Spanish Inquisition, where the death toll varies according to different sources, but could have been up to nine million.
- the Crusade, again at least thousands of deaths, but there's no accurate count.
- the Turkish conquests. Serbia was once occupied by the Turks and we have an extensive history when it comes to Turks trying to convert the enslaved population to Islam and persecuting those who wouldn't convert. Christianity had to be practiced in secrecy.
- more recently the terrorist attacks on your own country, fueled by radical Islamists. Then the subsequent wars started by your country in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to bring the terrorists to justice, but as far as the media report more civilians and soldiers have been killed than terrorists.

I doubt the crimes that spanned for over two thousand years can be overweighted by recent efforts to help the needy.
One more thing. I'm well aware that there are lots of good and tolerant religious people and that there are those who aren't, but you don't need a lot of bad people to cause bad things. Again I will reference to the more recent tragedy of 9/11 - it took a couple of fanatical terrorists with guns to take over airplanes with hundreds of people and ram them into buildings to kill even more.

Since this forum has its share of religious discussions, I will try to refrain myself from further commenting on religion in this thread. The title, after all, says "mankind's biggest mistake", not "religion is mankind's biggest mistake", the latter is just my opinion.

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Old 04-22-2008, 04:58 AM   #85
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Bit of a stretch to blame religion for peoples' own willingness to be sheep in the face of any ideology (facism, communism, nationalism.....). Mans' biggest mistake is most likely his own inability to see beyond his own wants and desires, consequences be damned.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 04-22-2008, 05:06 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Bit of a stretch to blame religion for peoples' own willingness to be sheep in the face of any ideology (facism, communism, nationalism.....).
True, but religion (all of those) teaches people to be sheep, even if they wouldn't be otherwise.


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Old 04-22-2008, 05:13 AM   #87
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So do most/all secular ideologies also. Frankly, most ideologies strongly encourage or demand a level of conformity that reduces people to sheep.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:32 AM   #88
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Got any examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentine
If people followed their religion perfectly, there wouldn't be any mistakes of mankind, because we'd all be perfect.
As far as I know, most religious people deem their acts as "perfectly following their religion", even more those who have the "nutter"-attribute bit set.

In other words, how do you define "to follow their religion perfectly"?


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Old 04-22-2008, 05:43 AM   #89
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Nazism and communism leap to mind. Also, PCism.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:55 AM   #90
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Nazism worked mainly through the principle of oppression and fear, not through people being sheep. Communism, well that may be another story, dependent on which country's communism you take into account. At least the communist/socialist Germany I grew up in did not demand people to be sheep. Of course some people were, but the majority surely was not.

However, I don't consider a certain level of conformity as "being sheep" -- I rather call that "acting as a whole".


As for PCism, is that an ideology anyway? Or is it merely another term for "got too much time at hand"?


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Old 04-22-2008, 02:08 PM   #91
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Right, there was no pressure to conform in any of those societies.

Quote:
However, I don't consider a certain level of conformity as "being sheep" -- I rather call that "acting as a whole".
So, when religious people "act as a whole" they are being sheep, but not so in a secular situation? Talk about having your cake and eating it to.

PCism, as in political correctness. cute pun on your part, though.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:52 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Right, there was no pressure to conform in any of those societies.
Oh, so, all those religious "sheeps" are religious due to...pressure?


Quote:
So, when religious people "act as a whole" they are being sheep, but not so in a secular situation?
Err, no?


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Old 04-22-2008, 04:10 PM   #93
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Mankind's worst mistake would be:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

I think that the invention of weapons that could wipe out whole civilizations is a big mistake. Yes, I could make an argument over oil spills, but those things can be cleaned up and cured overtime. When a nuclear weapon goes off, both human and environmental damage is next to almost unfixable.

Edited :: I didn't even see this:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=187341



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Old 04-22-2008, 04:24 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Source
Mankind's worst mistake would be:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

I think that the invention of weapons that could wipe out whole civilizations is a big mistake. Yes, I could make an argument over oil spills, but those things can be cleaned up and cured overtime. When a nuclear weapon goes off, both human and environmental damage is next to almost unfixable.
Well, don't forget bio and chemical weapons. They may do less obvious damage to the environment, but the are deadly b/c they're much cheaper to produce in quantity.

@Ray--perhaps you'd like to define what you mean by pressure. But generally speaking, that's what people mean when they talk about people being sheep. Not just that they merely mill around and do nothing b/c they're lazy, but also b/c they want or need others to tell them what to do. In essence, they're sheep b/c they don't/won't think for themselves. They willingly succumb to pressure in order to belong (or at least be otherwise left alone, so they hope).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:32 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Well, don't forget bio and chemical weapons. They may do less obvious damage to the environment, but the are deadly b/c they're much cheaper to produce in quantity.

@Ray--perhaps you'd like to define what you mean by pressure. But generally speaking, that's what people mean when they talk about people being sheep. Not just that they merely mill around and do nothing b/c they're lazy, but also b/c they want or need others to tell them what to do. In essence, they're sheep b/c they don't/won't think for themselves. They willingly succumb to pressure in order to belong (or at least be otherwise left alone, so they hope).
I hear you man. I think weapons of mass destruction tops my list. Right below WMD is the creation of religious sects. I am not talking about Christianity the faith, but more in the lines of Catholicism, Islam, Protestant, and Mormons. Religious sects are widely responsible for more deaths than anything else man made. People twist faith in a way, which causes crusades based upon ethnic cleansing. Grrr... "We come in the name of this faith, we translate that faith this way. If you don't like our translation, you will be hung or crucified." Horrible. Horrible...



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Old 04-22-2008, 05:35 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
@Ray--perhaps you'd like to define what you mean by pressure.
People are usually not forced into religion, but ideological systems usually have severe means of punishment at hand for not sheeping in line. To put it simple -- while one side "only" fears hell in afterlife, the other one fears deportation/torture/death in this life.

To me that makes quite a difference in "pressure".

Quote:
But generally speaking, that's what people mean when they talk about people being sheep. Not just that they merely mill around and do nothing b/c they're lazy, but also b/c they want or need others to tell them what to do. In essence, they're sheep b/c they don't/won't think for themselves. They willingly succumb to pressure in order to belong (or at least be otherwise left alone, so they hope).
I strongly doubt that any victim of deportation (or their family members) would agree on any of these points. Neither did they want to be lazy, nor needed someone to tell them what to do. And by no means they did not want to think for themselves. Also, I would not call it "willingly" when you succumb to pressure because you don't want your family dead.


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Old 04-22-2008, 05:54 PM   #97
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Yeah. Developing the technology to wipe yourself and probably most multicellular life at the same time from the face of the earth would definitely top my list of worst mistakes.


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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Old 04-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #98
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Well, at least mankind is now aware of the dangers coming from the use of this technology. At the end it might not be so much of a mistake, because we kind of stopped using it.


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Old 04-22-2008, 10:35 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
People are usually not forced into religion, but ideological systems usually have severe means of punishment at hand for not sheeping in line. To put it simple -- while one side "only" fears hell in afterlife, the other one fears deportation/torture/death in this life.
To me that makes quite a difference in "pressure".
Wrong, history is replete with examples of religion being forced down the throats of various populations. It still occurs in some parts of the world and is the ultimate aim of the radical islamic groups. Ideological groups like the nazis and communists also brainwash (ed) children early on to conform to their new environment through education and socialization. It doesn't work on everyone and many who defied religion being thrust down their throats also suffered bodily harm and/or other forms of loss.




Quote:
I strongly doubt that any victim of deportation (or their family members) would agree on any of these points. Neither did they want to be lazy, nor needed someone to tell them what to do. And by no means they did not want to think for themselves. Also, I would not call it "willingly" when you succumb to pressure because you don't want your family dead.
Not really sure what you're talking about here. Are you implying that the only people who are "sheeple" are a specifically targeted class (like perhaps the jews). Most people in a democracy are sheeple, who merely vote for the candidate of their parents/friends w/o really thinking about it. Or b/c they joined a party and don't wish to alienate their friends/fellow party members with their misgivings (assuming they think about it at all). As to the point about willing, you confuse that with desire. They may not have desired being on the butt end of coercion, but if they don't find a way to fight back, they go willingly (though not happily).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:32 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
As far as I know, most religious people deem their acts as "perfectly following their religion", even more those who have the "nutter"-attribute bit set.
I know many religious people who wouldn't say they are perfect. They know they are sinful; that's why they need religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
In other words, how do you define "to follow their religion perfectly"?
Impossible. I don't think we as humans are capable of perfection. What I meant with that statement was that even people who say they follow a certain religion don't keep all of the tenants of that religion perfectly. If all Christians lived the way the Bible tells them to, and followed all of its commandments perfectly, never doing anything wrong (according to their religion), they'd all be Jesuses. The fact is they don't, and they can't because of sin.


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Old 04-28-2008, 08:54 AM   #101
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Biggest Mistakes?

Either having far, far, far too much tolerance (That probably didn't come out the way I wanted it to...) or Zealotry.

Tolerance: If you tolerate too much then eventually it will get to the point of: (S)He's killing tons and tons of people, but its okay, because her/his culture says that it is okay to kill many people to become happy... <--- Extreme? Yes, but I believe it gets my point across...

Zealotry: People who will do anything to get their message spread and/or follow their ideology (Whether political, religious, or what) too much and get to the point of: "You are an infidel, DIE!" or "You are a Stupid, Ignorent, Right/Left/Anything-I'm-Missing believer."

So, yeah, too much tolerance or zealotry.
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Old 04-28-2008, 06:29 PM   #102
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-The Treaty of Versaille
-Eve listening to the freakin serpant
-Slavery
-Getting too intelligent for it's own good (IE. WMD's, Atom Bombs)
-Getting to dumb for it's own good (IE. Fast Food corporations shoving practically toxic waste down humainty's gullets)
-Gangsta rap
-Relying too much on techknowledgy (I am not looking foreward to a 2001:A Space Oddssey type occurance.)
-Cannibalism for recreation.
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Old 04-28-2008, 06:48 PM   #103
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H.A.L. was cool though.

Where have you heard of cannibalism for recreation?


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:50 PM   #104
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I know a lot of people with too much time on their hands...

who have too many fat friends that are slow runners.....

Yeeeeaaaaahh.

-Cannibalism as a whole. Unless you're gonna die. Than it's every ham for himself.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:58 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthAve
-The Treaty of Versaille.
Definitely in my top five.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:48 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jvstice
H.A.L. was cool though.

Where have you heard of cannibalism for recreation?
H=I
A=B
L=M

At any rate, Some of our greatest achievements may at some point prove to be our greatest mistakes. Technically I could call Television our greatest mistake because of the society it has bred. The internet for the ease of allowing people to hide their identities.
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