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Old 03-21-2008, 09:39 PM   #81
Totenkopf
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Quote:
Not before there were plans to go into Iraq, though--but that's not entirely Congress' fault...oh, wait, it is, because they admonished their power to declare war decades ago.
I think you meant abdicated.

@mimartin--I agree that this administration budgets $$ like drunken dems. On the other hand, the drunken dems in Congress have done little to try and stop him. I don't know about you, but we're overtaxed, especially given the value we receive for the extortion we endure. I think, though, that both parties are moving toward bigger and bigger centralized govt, just that the dems are running toward it while the reps amble inexorably forward. I think that we probably need some kind of peaceful (hopefully)revolution to reverse this, but don't see it happening anytime soon. As a footnote, I recall that even though Reagan dropped the top capital gains rate and still increased the $$ coming into the Treasury, the dems managed to spend something like $1.37 for every $1 of revenue generated. Tax and borrow and spend, apparently. The troubling thing, however, is that there's a $53 trillion dollar entitlement debt (SS)looming over us in the immediate future. Combined with interest payments on the debt, we are screwed no matter what we end up doing in the forseeable future.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 03-21-2008, 09:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I think you meant abdicated.
I need more sleep...

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I think that we probably need some kind of peaceful (hopefully)revolution to reverse this, but don't see it happening anytime soon.
Thomas Jefferson once said that a country needs a revolution every so often.


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Old 03-21-2008, 10:22 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
@mimartin--I agree that this administration budgets $$ like drunken dems. On the other hand, the drunken dems in Congress have done little to try and stop him.
The "drunken dems" are doing a better job than the Republican Congress did. Now where does that bridge go again?

Just like every other American Iím for my taxes being cut, but Iím for more of a across the board tax cuts proponent . I could care less about the top .02%, as they already have an army of tax attorneys and accounts to make sure they are not over paying their taxes. If Paris Hilton or Britney Spears have to pay $20,000 more in taxes, so be it. Maybe that will stop them from making a fool of themselves one day out of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
The troubling thing, however, is that there's a $53 trillion dollar entitlement debt (SS)looming over us in the immediate future. Combined with interest payments on the debt, we are screwed no matter what we end up doing in the forseeable future.
Entitlement Yes, people are entitled to the money they put into social security over their lifetime of work. I wonder where oh where the surplus in Social Security went. It was last seen in the 1980ís, about the time of the last major tax cuts.


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Old 03-21-2008, 10:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
The "drunken dems" are doing a better job than the Republican Congress did. Now where does that bridge go again?

Just like every other American Iím for my taxes being cut, but Iím for more of a across the board tax cuts proponent . I could care less about the top .02%, as they already have an army of tax attorneys and accounts to make sure they are not over paying their taxes. If Paris Hilton or Britney Spears have to pay $20,000 more in taxes, so be it. Maybe that will stop them from making a fool of themselves one day out of the year.
But are they, really? Are they putting more money down on the debt or merely trying to reign in defense expenditures for PR purposes?

Quote:
Now where does that bridge go again?
I'm guessing this in reference to Red Stevens of AK. More unnecessary pork, but might have been more successful if it were supposed to lead somewhere into WV.

Somehow, I suspect they they wouldn't skimp on making asses of themselves on slightly less money. But the interesting stat is that the top 10-20% of $$ earners (as share of economy) pay somewhere on the order of 40% of fed taxes. How much is enough? Aren't you just catering to class warfare sentiments?

Quote:
Entitlement Yes, people are entitled to the money they put into social security over their lifetime of work. I wonder where oh where the surplus in Social Security went. It was last seen in the 1980ís, about the time of the last major tax cuts.
Two things: 1)Are they entitled to MORE than they put in? and 2)As I recall, SS was folded into the general fund well before the 80s and it was dems who controlled congress (power of the purse, ne?)for over 40 years.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:36 PM   #85
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Tax discussions belong in their own thread. Please return to the topic....


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Old 03-22-2008, 01:19 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Reminds me of a certain senator who wants to cut taxes and give out free healthcare. No, not him, the other one.

By the way, anyone notice that the three major candidates are senators? The last senator to be elected president was one John F. Kennedy, almost fifty years ago.

He was also the last northerner to be elected. Just some random trivia for you.
Bush is from Connecticut.
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Old 03-22-2008, 01:42 AM   #87
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He wasn't elected.

And in any case, his father was from Massachusetts, but that doesn't make either of them northerners, since they both consider themselves from Texas.

But back to Obama and Wright...

Again, I ask the question, what does Obama's reverend's beliefs have anything to do with whether or not Obama would make a good president? It's not like Clinton or McCain don't have their share of crazy friends. And it's especially strange seeing as how favorable the media has treated Obama so far.


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Old 03-22-2008, 09:15 AM   #88
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The reason Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright is such a big deal is because of the closeness of that relationship. If Obama were a white candidate and Wright was a white preacher spewing white supremacy vitriol, his candidacy would be in the toilet. People are worried that his close relationship with Wright for over 20 years means he shares some of these same extreme and just plain wrong viewpoints about race. For instance, does Obama feel God should damn America? Does Obama feel whites should be overthrown so blacks can rule as is their 'rightful place'? Is Obama so entwined in the kind of culture that Wright espouses that he can no longer relate to whites (or Hispanics, Asians, or any other non-white race) without prejudice?

Obama can't claim to be a uniter of all Americans if he shares the same anti-white views that Wright has, and that is the chief issue right now that he'll have to answer, and answer well, if he wants to stay in the candidacy. He's taken a couple missteps in the last week (denying he was in the pew when Wright said some of these outrageous things, saying his white grandma, who has said some racial slurs, was a 'typical white American'). I understand Obama is proud of his heritage, as anyone should be since it shapes who we are. What I want to know is if that pride extends so far that he endorses and shares the black supremacy ideals that Wright has. I view any racial supremacy, white, black, or otherwise, as a poison in this world, and I want to make sure anyone who's going to be my President doesn't harbor supremacist ideas.


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Old 03-22-2008, 11:25 AM   #89
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The fact that he is half-white leads me to suspect that he is probably not a black supremacist.
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:31 PM   #90
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Then again, not everyone in the Nazi regime was "pure aryan", even by their own standards. Many blacks in the US have some degree of white in their background. Take a look at Wright, he's even lighter than Obama, but that doesn't seem to make any difference.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:10 PM   #91
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mlZeb2k8NA

You know you're useless when Sharpton of all people gets the better of you...


...
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Then again, not everyone in the Nazi regime was "pure aryan", even by their own standards.
Yet, how many were 1/2 Jewish?


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Old 03-24-2008, 10:12 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Yet, how many were 1/2 Jewish?
Hey, according to some sources Hitler was 1/4 Jewish, a Rothschild, no less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Schicklgruber

On topic: Of all the faults I've found in Obama, racism doesn't seem to be one of them, and I honestly agree with some of the "contraversial" things that Rev. Wright was saying. For example, I find it more probable that God would(should he exist) be more likely to damn America for killing hundreds of thousands of Koreans, Vietnamese, and Iraqis as opposed to damning it for putting up with homosexuals, as some on the religious right believe.





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Old 03-25-2008, 08:11 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Yet, how many were 1/2 Jewish?
Considering that anyone with black blood in thier lineage is often considered "black" first, it becomes a matter of racial identity politics and not genetics. A "half-black" is still considered black and almost always identifies with that group. It's not inconceivable that a "half-black" could be a racial supremecist at heart, all the more so if they feel alienated from the other half of their genetic background (nuture over nature). Obama's not responsible for the words that come out of another man's mouth, only how he reacts to that person afterward.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:39 PM   #95
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Nice little article by my favorite author:

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-04-13-1.html

(I'm sure everyone here knows about the 'small towns are bitter and cling to guns/religion' comment, right?)

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Old 04-27-2008, 07:29 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
At first, Obama tried to turn these words into an asset, insisting that people are bitter about government failures, and that anyone who says he's "out of touch" is far more out of touch themselves.

That didn't work for him.
I wonder what he means by "That didn't work for him".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
(These last two quotations are from the paraphrase of Obama's remarks by Catherine Lucey in the Philadelphia Daily News, 15 April 2008.)
Too busy to listen to the comments himself and make his own summary? Taking secondary sources at face value when primary sources are available doesn't strike me as being consistent with the ideals of journalistic integrity.

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Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Unfortunately, it is a misrepresentation to claim that he was speaking of politicians distracting voters with wedge issues. His list of things that result from supposed small-town bitterness began with clinging "to guns or religion" -- it can hardly be classed as a misstatement when that's how he started his list.
Not sure what he's attempting to convey here.

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Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
No matter how he tries to dance around it now, Obama was showing us who he really is -- one of those rare glimpses.
Opinion as fact. I'm always a big fan of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
He was speaking to an audience of supposed friends -- people who presumably loved him for having the most liberal voting record in the Senate.
Yeah, amazing how it's always supporters at fundraisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
But someone taped it and it got to the media and now we know what Obama thinks and says in private.
Actually the person that taped it was the media and happens to be one of the reporters assigned to his campaign. I guess that blows the whole "he had no idea they were there" thing out of the water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Is It Racism?
This whole section is conjecture, but the man is entitled to his opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
That Obama harbors racial stereotypes is clear from other contexts.
Did he get those from his white mother, his Indonesian step-father, or his African grandparents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Does this make Obama a racist? No, it makes him human. We all harbor information we've learned and conclusions we've reached about people who belong to other groups:
And which group does the author assume that Obama "belongs" in? Who's racist now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
We have no evidence of Obama hating or abusing or mistreating or rejecting white people, even though he obviously harbors quite-incorrect stereotypes about them.
And the fact that Obama is half-white? Raised by his single white mom?

Yes, clearly Obama was raised in an environment devoid of diversity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
We need to keep in mind that Obama was not speaking to a group of black people; my guess is that most of his listeners at that San Francisco fund-raiser were white.
Woot! Conclusions based entirely upon speculation. Love these too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Obama was speaking to a group of rich liberals
Really? How does he know this? Or is this more speculation on his part?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
...and he was using language that sounded like the way leftist intellectuals speak about the ignorant people who don't think and act the way leftist intellectuals think they should.
Is there a textbook available for those of us that want to learn more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
I have been in countless conversations with elitists of the Left, and this is precisely how they talk. They make sweeping generalizations about "the middle class" or, specifically, "the white middle class." They make mocking, disparaging remarks about "people who shop in malls" or "WalMart shoppers."
Wow, "countless". That sounds like a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
I have heard remarks like: "I don't know how people who don't read books can stand their lives" -- thus expressing the double assumption that people who aren't part of the academic Left don't read books, and that people who don't read books have lives that are not worth living; both statements are, of course, ludicrously false.
As are the assumptions that he's assigning to that statement. Thumbs up, Mr. Card. Way to arbitrarily assign context to support your arguments!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Let's look at those false assumptions. In verse 1, Obama says, "the jobs [in small towns] have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them."

First of all, it wasn't the people in the small towns of Pennsylvania and the Midwest who lost jobs because of the deindustrialization of America -- it was people in industrial cities and suburbs in the rust belt.
Did Obama specify why they lost the jobs? It seems he only specified that the jobs were gone. It seems that Mr. Card's introduction of deindustrializaton vs. factory-farming is completely irrelevant.

Obama's statement that the jobs are gone and that nothing has replaced them seems to be correct. Not sure how the "false assumption" is anything other than the author's.

In the last part of this section, Mr. Card makes sweeping assumptions very similar to those that he attempts to lambaste "liberal elists" for a few paragraphs earlier. Perhaps he should include a sentence or two about hypocrisy in his "what it means to be human" section.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Government Failure
Mr. Card isn't aware of any programs therefore there must not have been any. Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
But what Obama is clearly implying, between verses 1 and 2, is that it is the loss of jobs twenty-five years ago that has embittered the people now living in small towns.

This is the single stupidest part of what he said. Because, if you have a brain, you will realize that the people who did not find jobs in those small towns left them twenty-five years ago! That's why the towns have shrunk!
Well the ones that could afford to leave left. The ones that had job skills that allowed them to find work elsewhere probably left too. I wonder if I need to pull out unemployment statistics or if we can simply acknowledge that Orson Scott Card is the idiot here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
There is no one in Midwestern or even Northeastern small towns who lost his job twenty-five years ago and stayed in the small town living off the welfare of his neighbors ever since, who is bitter about the failure of Presidents to "save" them.
I wonder what evidence Mr. Card intends to present to support his assertion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
Only a Leftist intellectual is capable of such obvious stupidity -- but I will bet you that most Leftist intellectuals who read Obama's statement saw nothing wrong with it. To these elitists, you don't actually have to have information or logic in order to make vast generalizations and completely explain away entire classes of people. In fact, such false and evidence-free generalizations have been the stock in trade of the intellectual Left from Karl Marx on.
This is my favorite paragraph of the whole thing. Might as well put on a dress and rant about how much he hates cross-dressers while he's at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
The Results of Bitterness?
This commentary in this section is based on a logical fallacy known as biased sample

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Scott Card
So what have we learned about Obama?

1. That he's as full of ignorant stereotypes as anybody;

2. That he's capable of saying really stupid, thoughtless, obviously-false things; and

3. That he thinks he's really smart for saying them.
We learned those things about Obama, huh?

The rest of Mr. Card's article seems to drift off onto to topics other than the "bitter" nontroversy, so I'll quit here. Thanks for sharing the link!
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:57 PM   #97
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I guess there is no point in reading the article as Achilles seems to have quoted about 90 % of it. Too bad the author of the article is not a member; I would pay to see his response.

One question, there is still a middle class? Why would elitists of the Left be making sweeping generalizations about a group that the elitist of the Right have destroyed over the past eight years? (oh, I guess I just made one, I must be an elitists of the Left).

Nice post Achilles.


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Old 04-27-2008, 08:07 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
One question, there is still a middle class? Why would elitists of the Left be making sweeping generalizations about a group that the elitist of the Right have destroyed over the past eight years? (oh, I guess I just made one, I must be an elitists of the Left).
Here is my public service post of the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Nice post Achilles.
Thank you, sir.
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Old 05-02-2008, 02:09 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
I guess there is no point in reading the article as Achilles seems to have quoted about 90 % of it. Too bad the author of the article is not a member; I would pay to see his response.

One question, there is still a middle class? Why would elitists of the Left be making sweeping generalizations about a group that the elitist of the Right have destroyed over the past eight years? (oh, I guess I just made one, I must be an elitists of the Left).

Nice post Achilles.

Middle class isn't dead yet. Give the lefties an administration or 2 and they'll probably all be on the dole.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:14 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Middle class isn't dead yet. Give the lefties an administration or 2 and they'll probably all be on the dole.
Under Bill Clinton the middle class grew, we can't say the same under the present presidentís tenure.

Are you saying the compassionate conservative title made Bush a lefty, because I will agree Bill Clinton was way more conservative than Bush financially.


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Old 05-02-2008, 03:43 PM   #101
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I doubt that Clinton was all that conservative by choice. Having a congress and administration split between two parties can have that effect. Unfortunately, that probably only tends to happen when the president is dem and the congress rep. Having the same party in control of both branches is probably never a really good idea.

As to Bush, I think that he's proven to finacially be a lefty. He's certainly spending $$ like a traditional lefty democrat. As to the middle class remark, you did say destroyed. I'll take that for poetic license of sorts.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:53 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
As to the middle class remark, you did say destroyed. I'll take that for poetic license of sorts.
Nothing poetic about it, if you were one of the former middle class. They are just as angry as Rev Wright. Luckily, my stepfather hasnít been filmed saying what he said about this country. A country that during the Korean war he lost about a pound of his butt for. In fairness all his problems were not caused by President Bush, they were also caused by former Texas Governor Bush.


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Old 05-02-2008, 03:56 PM   #103
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Have some people moved from the "middle class" in either direction over the last 20 years? Of course. My point was that "destroyed" was a strong word when applied to the whole concept, not merely individuals.


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Old 05-03-2008, 12:12 AM   #104
Jae Onasi
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Originally Posted by Achilles
The fact that he is half-white leads me to suspect that he is probably not a black supremacist.
Just because he's half-white doesn't mean he can't harbor black supremacist ideas, anymore than being half-black means one can't harbor white supremacist ideas. I think it's highly unlikely that he harbors some of these views, but I'd really like him to be clear on this issue. It took him awhile in March to really get things settled down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSC
2. That he's capable of saying really stupid, thoughtless, obviously-false things;
Well, the 'guns and religion' thing _was_ a stupid, ill-thought out statement by Obama. That's going to happen to all the candidates, however. The candidates are running to the point of exhaustion and are in the media's fishbowl constantly. At some point, they all have and will make mistakes. It's inevitable.

I found it odd that someone who is a Christian would make that kind of statement about other people of faith (no comments on the rightness or wrongness of faith here, or any kind of statement denigrating people's faith--there are more than enough threads in this forum for that). It made me wonder briefly how deep his faith really was, but he's been pretty forthright about that topic so I'm more inclined to believe what he says on that than not.

I also find it odd that Rev. Wright continues to say things that could hurt the Obama campaign. He's too bright to not notice the effect his comments are having on people's opinions (rightly or wrongly). If he wants his friend and spiritual protege to get elected, toning it way down might be wise at this point.


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Old 05-03-2008, 01:21 AM   #105
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I don't see how the people he's associated himself is in any way a reflection upon who he is as an individual.

I've hung out with some messed up people, however do you consider me a risk to society? An immediate threat to another persons well being?
I've grown up and learned lessons from hateful people, does that mean I'm a hateful person? No, just means they happened to teach me how to crap without a diaper. Or how to stand up for what I believe in. Doesn't mean I have to believe in what they do, just support their right to do as I would. (make an active choice of free will, legally)

I respect your opinion Jae (and the others with a similiar expressed opinion), however I cannot see the logic behind simplifying an already outlandish and over-exaggerated issue, with "Well they were in a deep spiritual relationship for many years, so he has to believe the same principles as this man" If that were true then why were Malcom X and Martin Luther King Jr. such drastically different forms of Civil Rights protestors? They carried the same message, but one chose one path to the goal, while the other one chose a different path.

Would you, do you fault Martin Luther King for maintaining a friendship and professional relationship with Malcom X?


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Old 05-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
I don't see how the people he's associated himself is in any way a reflection upon who he is as an individual.
Your close friends have an influence on you. If Obama was hanging around KKK leaders and considered them his spiritual mentors, people would be asking if he was a white supremacist. I would think Obama was about as likely to be a white supremacist in that case based on what he says (which is very small).

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
I've hung out with some messed up people, however do you consider me a risk to society? An immediate threat to another persons well being?
Sithy, I don't wonder about that but I wouldn't be surprised if some do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
I respect your opinion Jae (and the others with a similiar expressed opinion), however I cannot see the logic behind simplifying an already outlandish and over-exaggerated issue, with "Well they were in a deep spiritual relationship for many years, so he has to believe the same principles as this man"
I think it's still a legitimate issue to _ask_ about, however. The people who you consider mentors, spiritual or otherwise, have shaped your views on life issues. If you have a very close friend who is saying black supremacist things, people are going to wonder how it affects you, too. If Wright were very white supremacist, homophobic, or fundamentalist Christian, I guarantee you there would be even more questioning and even outrage over their relationship.

Up until the Rev. Wright tirades went public, we hadn't heard much more from Obama on race relations other than 'we need unity'. We didn't know where he stood definitively. Now we have a better idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
If that were true then why were Malcom X and Martin Luther King Jr. such drastically different forms of Civil Rights protestors? They carried the same message, but one chose one path to the goal, while the other one chose a different path.
Malcolm X did not want unity of races, he wanted black supremacy. King worked for unity, Malcolm X did not. The only common factor between the two is that they happened to be working on racial issues, but their ultimate goals couldn't have been more different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Would you, do you fault Martin Luther King for maintaining a friendship and professional relationship with Malcom X?
King and Malcolm X acknowledged each other's work on race rights and clearly had a cordial relationship, though King never agreed with Malcolm X's methods. Their relationship was not the same as Obama's and Wright's, however. King and Malcolm X did not consider each other their spiritual mentors.


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Old 05-03-2008, 10:36 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I also find it odd that Rev. Wright continues to say things that could hurt the Obama campaign. He's too bright to not notice the effect his comments are having on people's opinions (rightly or wrongly). If he wants his friend and spiritual protege to get elected, toning it way down might be wise at this point.
Problem is Rev. Wright see this as an attack on the church he has spent most of his adult life building. He is going to protect his legacy and all the members of the church, not just the one running for President.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino
Would you, do you fault Martin Luther King for maintaining a friendship and professional relationship with Malcom X?
First to your question my answer is no.

I see neither man as a saint, they were merely men that were willing and did sacrifice everything for what they believed in and what they thought was right. If we waited for saintís to change the world then there would have never been a Civil Rights movement or an United States.

I remember reading about a man associating with a known criminal sentenced to death. After the condemned criminal showed some compassion for the hero of the story, the hero not only forgave the criminal, but invited him back to his fatherís kingdom. Inviting someone home for eternity is a strong association to me. Of course, Iím talking about Jesus who associated with some pretty shady characters too.

100% of my best friends are republican, does not make me one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Malcolm X did not want unity of races, he wanted black supremacy. King worked for unity, Malcolm X did not. The only common factor between the two is that they happened to be working on racial issues, but their ultimate goals couldn't have been more different.
His last few speeches did not reflect this goal. It is possible that Malcolm X attitude change before his death. Besides if he really did want black supremacy, let us remember he was living in a time of white supremacy. It does not sound nearly as radical when you look at it like that. Besides I only believe he wanted separation, not supremacy.



Last edited by mimartin; 05-03-2008 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:43 AM   #108
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Well, here we go:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I wonder what he means by "That didn't work for him".
So what you're saying is that the people in small town Pennsylvania (read:my neighbors) were originally offended by these comments, but "Oh, now that you're saying we're out of touch and bashing the candidate of Pennsylvania, we forgive you and believe you now?"

You think that him coming back with a "I know you are but what am I" response helped?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Too busy to listen to the comments himself and make his own summary? Taking secondary sources at face value when primary sources are available doesn't strike me as being consistent with the ideals of journalistic integrity.
For starters, he's not really a journalist. It's an opinion article for a site called "The Ornery American." Second of all, the quotations he used were still consistent with the original comments. You're arguing semantics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Opinion as fact. I'm always a big fan of this.
Because in an opinion article, one usually treats his or her opinion as truth. But really, what did you want him to say? That's what he believes; that's what he's being paid for here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Yeah, amazing how it's always supporters at fundraisers
This isn't a valid criticism. He's setting up his next point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Actually the person that taped it was the media and happens to be one of the reporters assigned to his campaign. I guess that blows the whole "he had no idea they were there" thing out of the water.
Ok, I can accept this. I'm sure that he didn't realize that this would become a nation-wide controversy, in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
This whole section is conjecture, but the man is entitled to his opinions.
Right. Opinions are conjecture. So.... what's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Did he get those from his white mother, his Indonesian step-father, or his African grandparents?
Oh, well then. It must be impossible for him to have stereotypes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And which group does the author assume that Obama "belongs" in? Who's racist now?
Not sure what you're implying. That there aren't 'groups'? You don't believe in demographics anymore? Or are you saying that humans don't jump to conclusions and aren't prejudiced? Please elucidate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And the fact that Obama is half-white? Raised by his single white mom?
Yes, clearly Obama was raised in an environment devoid of diversity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Jae
Just because he's half-white doesn't mean he can't harbor black supremacist ideas, anymore than being half-black means one can't harbor white supremacist ideas. I think it's highly unlikely that he harbors some of these views, but I'd really like him to be clear on this issue.
Thanks Jae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Woot! Conclusions based entirely upon speculation. Love these too.
Yup, he should call San Francisco to make sure there were no African-Americans present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Really? How does he know this? Or is this more speculation on his part?
I'm sure it is, but you don't get into a private fundraiser with a democrat presidential candidate without being both rich and liberal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Is there a textbook available for those of us that want to learn more?
Nice and glib.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Wow, "countless". That sounds like a lot.
Actually, the day I met him he apologized for not carrying one of these in his pocket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
As are the assumptions that he's assigning to that statement. Thumbs up, Mr. Card. Way to arbitrarily assign context to support your arguments!
Not sure what your criticism is. That he used an analogy to try to back up his point? That he 'assigned context to support his arguments'? Doesn't sound like it's a bad thing to me....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Did Obama specify why they lost the jobs? It seems he only specified that the jobs were gone. It seems that Mr. Card's introduction of deindustrializaton vs. factory-farming is completely irrelevant. Obama's statement that the jobs are gone and that nothing has replaced them seems to be correct. Not sure how the "false assumption" is anything other than the author's.
Your call, I guess. I guess OSC can't really talk about this point because Obama wasn't specifically wrong, just generally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Mr. Card isn't aware of any programs therefore there must not have been any. Got it.
Not everyone can know everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Well the ones that could afford to leave left. The ones that had job skills that allowed them to find work elsewhere probably left too. I wonder if I need to pull out unemployment statistics or if we can simply acknowledge that Orson Scott Card is the idiot here.
... Go get your statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I wonder what evidence Mr. Card intends to present to support his assertion
So you disagree with his point? That there are just people all over America that lived in small towns, then lost their jobs, then just continued without a job and without leaving where they were to try and find employment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles

This is my favorite paragraph of the whole thing. Might as well put on a dress and rant about how much he hates cross-dressers while he's at it.


Ok, if you'll just grant me an aside here....

This makes me laugh - now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing. I agree that this statement is paradoxically hypocritical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
This commentary in this section is based on a logical fallacy known as biased sample
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
We learned those things about Obama, huh?
Did you have a preexisting problem with OSC or was this one opinion of his just enough to set you off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The rest of Mr. Card's article seems to drift off onto to topics other than the "bitter" nontroversy, so I'll quit here. Thanks for sharing the link!
I'm assuming 'nontroversy' wasn't a typo? What, you agree with Obama on this?

Anyway, you're welcome.

Thanks for reading... can't wait to see how you'll respond .

_EW_



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Old 05-03-2008, 01:41 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
So what you're saying is that the people in small town Pennsylvania (read:my neighbors) were originally offended by these comments, but "Oh, now that you're saying we're out of touch and bashing the candidate of Pennsylvania, we forgive you and believe you now?"

You think that him coming back with a "I know you are but what am I" response helped?
No, I'm saying that the author stated something but wasn't very clear about what he was trying to convey

Sometimes my questions are just questions.

To the point you raised though: not everyone in PA felt that Obama was off the mark. Some people did come forward and say that they were bitter. Hillary got boo'ed at one of her rallies for trying to say that Obama was out of touch for that comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
For starters, he's not really a journalist. It's an opinion article for a site called "The Ornery American." Second of all, the quotations he used were still consistent with the original comments. You're arguing semantics.
Not arguing semantics at all. He absolutely responded to someone else's comment and attempted to pass it off as a legitimate response to what was said originally. Journalist or no, it's still sloppy thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Because in an opinion article, one usually treats his or her opinion as truth. But really, what did you want him to say? That's what he believes; that's what he's being paid for here.
Except the intellectually rigorous people that acknowledge that their opinions are simply opinions

He is absolutely entitled to his opinions, however passing opinion off as fact is only impressive to some audiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
This isn't a valid criticism. He's setting up his next point.
Speaking of opinions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Ok, I can accept this. I'm sure that he didn't realize that this would become a nation-wide controversy, in any case.
No, I'm sure he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Right. Opinions are conjecture. So.... what's the problem?
No, sometimes opinions are informed. The problem is that the author is trying to pass his opinion off as fact but

1) isn't making much of an effort to know what he's talking about and
2) not really making much of an effort to clarify that he's simply sharing what he thinks rather than acurrately interpret reality. Let the reader beware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Oh, well then. It must be impossible for him to have stereotypes.
Impossible? No. Significantly less likely? I would argue yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not sure what you're implying. That there aren't 'groups'? You don't believe in demographics anymore? Or are you saying that humans don't jump to conclusions and aren't prejudiced? Please elucidate.
Simply pointing out that the author's choice to categorize Obama as a black man with white stereotypes is fairly hypocritical considering that he's attempting to lambaste Obama for doing something similar and attributing it to racism. Something about the shoe being on the other foot or what have you

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Thanks Jae.
Not sure that Jae addressed my point, so you'll need to expand please. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Yup, he should call San Francisco to make sure there were no African-Americans present.
Or simply not made the statement without knowing. That was an option too

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I'm sure it is, but you don't get into a private fundraiser with a democrat presidential candidate without being both rich and liberal.
Funny, I was invited to a private Obama fundraiser, but I'm only middle-class and moderate.

Maybe you're wrong on this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Nice and glib.
Does that mean "no"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Actually, the day I met him he apologized for not carrying one of these in his pocket.
Well let's think about it: if the statistic is "countless" then trying to keep track would defy reason, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not sure what your criticism is. That he used an analogy to try to back up his point? That he 'assigned context to support his arguments'? Doesn't sound like it's a bad thing to me....
That didn't sound like an analogy. It sounded like an ancedote (as indicated by "I have heard remarks like:". The fact that he was using the ancedote here tells me that he thinks it's applicable.

However he tells us that the person making this statement is directing this critism at a particular group of people and means something specific by it. There is absolutely no evidence for this present in the statement itself. Don't believe me? Imagine that the comment is being a made about someone conservative. The first assumption immediately fall apart, yet he still tries to paint the speaker as an idiot. Furthermore the second assumption is completely fabricated. Therefore he has assign context to the statment in order to make it say what he needed it to say so that he could prop up his own comment. Which was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Your call, I guess. I guess OSC can't really talk about this point because Obama wasn't specifically wrong, just generally.
Except that Obama can't even be generally wrong on this point because he never made any comment on this point in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not everyone can know everything.
Indeed. It doesn't excuse the fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
... Go get your statistics.
Link
Clearly PA is not the worker's paradise that the author wants us to believe it is (not that's it's sucking eggs either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
So you disagree with his point? That there are just people all over America that lived in small towns, then lost their jobs, then just continued without a job and without leaving where they were to try and find employment?
No, what I said was, "I wonder what evidence Mr. Card intends to present to support his assertion."

(hint: this is the standard line that I use when someone makes an argument that depends on them having to prove a negative to support it).

I'm looking forward to seeing how Mr. Card intends to prove that there is no one living in a small town that lost their job, went on welfare, and is currently bitter about it. Keep in mind that if we find one, his argument falls apart. The more we find, the more silly his argument will become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Did you have a preexisting problem with OSC or was this one opinion of his just enough to set you off?
Never heard of him until you posted that link

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I'm assuming 'nontroversy' wasn't a typo?
No, it was quite intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
What, you agree with Obama on this?
I guess that depends on what you mean by "agree with Obama".

Obama was asked by a couple of volunteers what to expect when they went to PA to canvas for him. He replies (paraphrasing): "Depends on where you go. Some parts of the state are bitter about government. Add to that that some people are skeptical about me. Can you blame them considering how long they've been let down? So some communites are going to be highly suspicious of our message because I don't look or act like they do."

So with the context of the question and the full response, no, I don't disagree with Barack Obama. I think that he could have certainly phrased that one particular sentence a lot better, but I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of his comments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Thanks for reading
It was my pleasure.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:25 PM   #110
EnderWiggin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Sometimes my questions are just questions.
How philosophic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Speaking of opinions...
Touche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Impossible? No. Significantly less likely? I would argue yes.
I would agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Not sure that Jae addressed my point, so you'll need to expand please. Thanks.
Pretty sure she (and I) meant that his viewpoints don't really have to depend on his genetics. If he identifies himself with the black supremest ideals, then it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Or simply not made the statement without knowing. That was an option too
Not really... that option doesn't sell the Rhinoceros Times or look good in the Ornery American.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Funny, I was invited to a private Obama fundraiser, but I'm only middle-class and moderate.

Maybe you're wrong on this one?
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008...came_at_1.html
And this... although not sure how factual.
http://www.zombietime.com/obama_visi...lionaires_row/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Does that mean "no"?
I'm so sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Well let's think about it: if the statistic is "countless" then trying to keep track would defy reason, no?

What do you mean? I don't think he tried to keep track of how many... I was being a bit facetious there. Please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That didn't sound like an analogy. It sounded like an ancedote (as indicated by "I have heard remarks like:". The fact that he was using the ancedote here tells me that he thinks it's applicable.

However he tells us that the person making this statement is directing this critism at a particular group of people and means something specific by it. There is absolutely no evidence for this present in the statement itself. Don't believe me? Imagine that the comment is being a made about someone conservative. The first assumption immediately fall apart, yet he still tries to paint the speaker as an idiot. Furthermore the second assumption is completely fabricated. Therefore he has assign context to the statment in order to make it say what he needed it to say so that he could prop up his own comment. Which was my point.
Yes, anecdote is a better word. It may or may not be false, but you're saying that you have a problem with the accuracy and not the technique. Thanks for clarifying, makes more sense now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Indeed. It doesn't excuse the fallacy.
Maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Link
Clearly PA is not the worker's paradise that the author wants us to believe it is (not that's it's sucking eggs either).
Not to be rude, but that statistic tells us nothing. It has an overall unemployment rate, but nothing on the last 25 years of small-town Pennsylvanians and their economic troubles after they lose their jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm looking forward to seeing how Mr. Card intends to prove that there is no one living in a small town that lost their job, went on welfare, and is currently bitter about it. Keep in mind that if we find one, his argument falls apart. The more we find, the more silly his argument will become.
If you find one, his argument does not fall apart. Obama's comment said that small town Pennsylvanians cling to these things because they're bitter towards the government after they lose their jobs. Card's refutation was that there aren't actually people like that. They were arguing about the majority. They both know that there are outliers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Never heard of him until you posted that link
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
No, it was quite intentional.
Of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I guess that depends on what you mean by "agree with Obama".

Obama was asked by a couple of volunteers what to expect when they went to PA to canvas for him. He replies (paraphrasing): "Depends on where you go. Some parts of the state are bitter about government. Add to that that some people are skeptical about me. Can you blame them considering how long they've been let down? So some communites are going to be highly suspicious of our message because I don't look or act like they do."

So with the context of the question and the full response, no, I don't disagree with Barack Obama. I think that he could have certainly phrased that one particular sentence a lot better, but I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of his comments.
I don't think that religion is something that small-town Pennsylvanians cling to in order to survive their economic plight. Besides that, I would be inclined to agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It was my pleasure.
Mine as well.

_EW_



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Old 05-03-2008, 07:33 PM   #111
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
I view any racial supremacy, white, black, or otherwise, as a poison in this world, and I want to make sure anyone who's going to be my President doesn't harbor supremacist ideas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The fact that he is half-white leads me to suspect that he is probably not a black supremacist.
But we don't know for sure until Obama gives us evidence, do we? The color of his skin is irrelevant to his feelings on black or white supremacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae
Just because he's half-white doesn't mean he can't harbor black supremacist ideas, anymore than being half-black means one can't harbor white supremacist ideas. I think it's highly unlikely that he harbors some of these views, but I'd really like him to be clear on this issue. It took him awhile in March to really get things settled down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Not sure that Jae addressed my point, so you'll need to expand please.
Obama's close association with someone who makes some statements that are black supremacist is going to raise the question of whether or not Obama also shares these views--he had not been very specific about them until Wright's comments, mostly because it just wasn't raised as much of an issue before then. You appear to be saying (and I could have read it wrong, in which case this is moot) that because Obama is half-white, he's unlikely to be a black supremacist. I'm saying that doesn't necessarily follow. I've heard blacks calling other blacks '******s' in the fully pejorative sense. I've heard whites calling other whites 'crackers' because they hate their own race. Obama could have been a black supremacist in spite of being half white--genetics are indeed ultimately irrelevant to his views on racism. If Obama went to KKK meetings on a weekly basis, we'd all be asking if he was a white supremacist. The argument that 'it's unlikely because he's half-black' would hold as much weight as the one that says he's unlikely to be a black supremacist because he's half-white.

If someone is going to lead this melting pot of a nation and treat people of all races fairly, I don't want to guess where he or she is at on racial issues based on his or her personal skin color. I want to know where all the candidates are at on racial issues by what they say and do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I don't think that religion is something that small-town Pennsylvanians cling to in order to survive their economic plight.
Humor mode on: Well, I know if I ever lose my job and suffer economically, I'm going to pull out my shotgun and sit on the porch clinging to it with all my might because that will be so helpful in improving my financial situation.

I understand the paraphrase of Obama's comments, Achilles, and agree in that I think that's what he meant, too, just said in a maladroit manner that made me cringe since I knew how it was going to get spun. However, others are going to make the argument 'we can't go by what we think he meant, we can only go by what he says'. I think it's extremely unlikely Obama's a black supremacist, too, but he needs to be very clear in articulating to his opponents that he's not a supremacist of any color.


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Old 05-03-2008, 08:15 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Humor mode on: Well, I know if I ever lose my job and suffer economically, I'm going to pull out my shotgun and sit on the porch clinging to it with all my might because that will be so helpful in improving my financial situation.

I already sit on my porch with a gun (praying, I might add)....
It's us here Pennsylvanians' version of a 401k.

_EW_



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Old 05-03-2008, 08:19 PM   #113
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Well, I might sit on the porch with a shotgun when my daughter gets old enough to date.


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Old 05-03-2008, 08:27 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi


Well, I might sit on the porch with a shotgun when my daughter gets old enough to date.
Believe me, you never had to experience it, but the boy is nervous enough around you. You don't need a weapon to do that.

But, again, from personal experience.... nerves aren't going to stop him, if you know what I mean.

So, actually a shotgun is probably a good idea.

But you shouldn't have to experience it anytime soon, right? I mean, when you're 29 years old....

_EW_

PS: Achilles, I was just thinking... I remember when I first joined in Jul 04 and you still had Ewan McGregor as your avatar. That was a seriously long time ago, huh?



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Old 05-03-2008, 09:48 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Pretty sure she (and I) meant that his viewpoints don't really have to depend on his genetics. If he identifies himself with the black supremest ideals, then it doesn't matter.
That's good because I wasn't arguing his genetics. I was arguing his upbringing. His dad was gone, he was raised by his white mother and for a brief time by his white grandparents. So where do these alleged black supremacist values come from? Is Harvard law school as cesspit of any-Caucasian sentiment? You know what I hear? A lot of speculation about someone because he's half-black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not really... that option doesn't sell the Rhinoceros Times or look good in the Ornery American.
Heaven forbid that the hit count on his blog should suffer for a little integrity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
And?

(the fundraiser I was invited to was a $1,000 dollar event as well).

Only the wealthy can swing this? Remember the question that set this whole thing off was posed by someone that was going to PA to canvas for Obama. Think a lot of millionaires are knocking on doors for the campaign? Maybe yes and maybe no, but you'll need more than this to convince me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Yes, anecdote is a better word. It may or may not be false, but you're saying that you have a problem with the accuracy and not the technique. Thanks for clarifying, makes more sense now.
Technically I have a problem with both, but I'll let that go for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not to be rude, but that statistic tells us nothing. It has an overall unemployment rate, but nothing on the last 25 years of small-town Pennsylvanians and their economic troubles after they lose their jobs.
Mr. Card's contention was that everyone that did not have a job left. If that's the case, then why is PA on the losing end of the median unemployment rate? I don't need to track 25 years worth of data to debunk his assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
If you find one, his argument does not fall apart.
Unfortunately you're wrong. It's sad that Mr. Card felt inclined to use such specific wording, but he did indeed say something very stupid. Happens to a lot of people

PS: This is one of the many problems with arguing for a negative: once a positive is found, the argument is vaporized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Obama's comment said that small town Pennsylvanians cling to these things because they're bitter towards the government after they lose their jobs.
Some small town Pennsylvanians. Some. See Barack Obama didn't make the same mistake that OSC did. Nor did he make a generalization about all Pennsylvanians or small town people in general. It pays to note what is actually being said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Card's refutation was that there aren't actually people like that. They were arguing about the majority. They both know that there are outliers.
Nothing in Mr. Card's language indicates that. Considering that he's a writer, I suspect that he said precisely what he meant to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I don't think that religion is something that small-town Pennsylvanians cling to in order to survive their economic plight. Besides that, I would be inclined to agree with you.
It's completely inconceivable to you that some people (there's that word again) might fit that description? Think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
But we don't know for sure until Obama gives us evidence, do we? The color of his skin is irrelevant to his feelings on black or white supremacy.
Have you been to an Obama rally? Read either of his books? Or do you get most of everything in sound bites via the media?

Unfortunately when it comes to people, we have what they do and what they say. In both cases, we have nothing that would indicate to us that Obama is racists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Obama's close association with someone who makes some statements that are black supremacist
"Black supremacist"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
...is going to raise the question of whether or not Obama also shares these views--he had not been very specific about them until Wright's comments, mostly because it just wasn't raised as much of an issue before then.
Assuming that Obama diligently attended church every Sunday for 20 years, keep in mind that Rev. Wright gives three sermons (assuming that he never took a Sunday off either). Each of these is separate from the others, so there aren't any repeats.

So even if Obama went to church every Sunday and sat in a pew and listened to a sermon from Wright, there's a 66% chance that Obama could have missed something controversial (assuming that Wright said something controversial every week).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
You appear to be saying (and I could have read it wrong, in which case this is moot) that because Obama is half-white, he's unlikely to be a black supremacist.
You're half right. Because Obama is half-white, was raised in a multi-cultural family, was raised by a single white mother (who took him around the world and exposed him to various cultures via her anthropology), was raised by white grandparents, etc, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that he harbors black supremacist tendencies. I mean, are black people somehow more inclined to harbor these behaviors? At what point to step back and recognize that a lot of what we're saying sounds stereotypical (if not racist)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
If someone is going to lead this melting pot of a nation and treat people of all races fairly, I don't want to guess where he or she is at on racial issues based on his or her personal skin color. I want to know where all the candidates are at on racial issues by what they say and do.
I'm assuming that McCain and Clinton have sufficiently crossed the "racist" threshold for you? I recommend either of Obama's books if you get the time. And hopefully you'll have a chance to attend a rally at some point too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
PS: Achilles, I was just thinking... I remember when I first joined in Jul 04 and you still had Ewan McGregor as your avatar. That was a seriously long time ago, huh?
Time flies, eh. I remember when LF was where I came to talk about modding video games.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:19 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
That's good because I wasn't arguing his genetics. I was arguing his upbringing. His dad was gone, he was raised by his white mother and for a brief time by his white grandparents. So where do these alleged black supremacist values come from? Is Harvard law school as cesspit of any-Caucasian sentiment? You know what I hear? A lot of speculation about someone because he's half-black.
You're right. I'm actually a racist-in-disguise. I'm voting for him so I don't blow my cover.

It's all speculation based on the fact that he's a member of a black supremacist church. At least, I think that's where this thread started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Heaven forbid that the hit count on his blog should suffer for a little integrity.
Not that either the Rhino Times or Ornery.org are his or anything. But you're right, because for every single point he makes every week, he should research it even if he thinks he's right until he's sure. Then he can publish it. Otherwise, he should keep his opinions out of his opinion article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And?

(the fundraiser I was invited to was a $1,000 dollar event as well).

Only the wealthy can swing this? Remember the question that set this whole thing off was posed by someone that was going to PA to canvas for Obama. Think a lot of millionaires are knocking on doors for the campaign? Maybe yes and maybe no, but you'll need more than this to convince me.
Not many middle class Republicans are spending $1000 just to hear Obama talk for a while. How's that for a stereotype?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Technically I have a problem with both, but I'll let that go for now.
Anecdotes really are useful. I fail to see the problem with them. Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Mr. Card's contention was that everyone that did not have a job left. If that's the case, then why is PA on the losing end of the median unemployment rate? I don't need to track 25 years worth of data to debunk his assertion.
Disagree. Just because they left doesn't say where they went. PA is a big state. He said they left small towns. Cities=unemployed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Unfortunately you're wrong. It's sad that Mr. Card felt inclined to use such specific wording, but he did indeed say something very stupid. Happens to a lot of people
PS: This is one of the many problems with arguing for a negative: once a positive is found, the argument is vaporized.
Partially disproved? Yes. Vaporized? Not sure if you can actually argue that. I'd say for the most part Obama was wrong. OSC says there aren't people like that around either. Perhaps he knew that not every person was the same, and was talking instead about the overall state of the... well... state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Some small town Pennsylvanians. Some. See Barack Obama didn't make the same mistake that OSC did. Nor did he make a generalization about all Pennsylvanians or small town people in general. It pays to note what is actually being said.
So what you're saying is that Obama "could have certainly phrased that one particular sentence a lot better," except for the word some? And that is what makes his argument foolproof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Nothing in Mr. Card's language indicates that. Considering that he's a writer, I suspect that he said precisely what he meant to.
I'm sure he thinks that there are no outliers in his equation and that every case is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
It's completely inconceivable to you that some people (there's that word again) might fit that description? Think about it.
Hmm... I'm not sure how you can sit there and say that there are a minute amount of people who cling to the right to bear arms and their faith as a solution to their economic hardship. It doesn't make sense to me. At all. Who are these people, and why do they think faith will allow them to help their finances and get back at the government that they're so bitter towards?

I also fail to see how if one person fits that description it makes Sen. Obama right and veritable and OSC completely and utterly wrong.



Here's what it comes down to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I don't disagree with the overall sentiment of his comments.
You don't.
I do.


Overall, I don't think that we can argue more about this subject (besides the specific things I just asked). It's just circling around word choice and this fundamental difference we have in opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Time flies, eh. I remember when LF was where I came to talk about modding video games.
I still do - but I much prefer these little discussions we have

And I thank you for your time. It was good talking to you.

_EW_



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Old 05-04-2008, 04:18 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
It's all speculation based on the fact that he's a member of a black supremacist church. At least, I think that's where this thread started.
I think we need to be very careful to distinguish between "black theology" and "black supremacy". I've seen a few people use these interchangeably, however they are not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not that either the Rhino Times or Ornery.org are his or anything. But you're right, because for every single point he makes every week, he should research it even if he thinks he's right until he's sure. Then he can publish it. Otherwise, he should keep his opinions out of his opinion article.
Huge difference between having an opinion and making stuff up. Now here you are, at least partially inspired to participate in this thread because of what you perceive to be as inaccuracies about Pennsylvania. It's okay for you to argue for accuracy about a topic that you consider important, however I'm a schmuck for doing the same thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Not many middle class Republicans are spending $1000 just to hear Obama talk for a while. How's that for a stereotype?
Dunno. Maybe we can ask some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Anecdotes really are useful. I fail to see the problem with them. Please explain.
Anecdotes can be useful, yes. Using them to make generalizations, not so much.

(remind me to tell you some time about the guy that I worked for that wanted to run a 400-person contact center based on anecdotal information )

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Disagree. Just because they left doesn't say where they went. PA is a big state. He said they left small towns. Cities=unemployed.
You are entitled to your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Partially disproved? Yes. Vaporized? Not sure if you can actually argue that.
Hypothesis: There are no black swans
Test: A black swan is found.
Conclusion: Black swans do exist. Original hypothesis failed.

Now, let's try this again.
Hypothesis: "There is no one in Midwestern or even Northeastern small towns who lost his job twenty-five years ago and stayed in the small town living off the welfare of his neighbors ever since, who is bitter about the failure of Presidents to "save" them." (emphasis added)
Test: ?
Conclusion: ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I'd say for the most part Obama was wrong.
Well that would seem to jive nicely with his comments considering that he specified that he was only talking about some people. Perhaps the two of you don't disagree on that much after all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
OSC says there aren't people like that around either. Perhaps he knew that not every person was the same, and was talking instead about the overall state of the... well... state?
So OSC was trying lambaste someone else for doing the same thing he was? I don't follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
So what you're saying is that Obama "could have certainly phrased that one particular sentence a lot better," except for the word some? And that is what makes his argument foolproof?
Go back and re-read the paragraph. Then re-read the offending sentence.

Yes, I believe the sentiment of the paragraph was accurate. I also think that the last sentence could have been worded better. Unfortunately many people are taking the one sentence as a generalization because they are hearing it out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I'm sure he thinks that there are no outliers in his equation and that every case is the same.
Yes, the language that he used would seem to indicate that. If you feel comfortable making assumptions about his intentions based on some other criteria, then please don't let me stop you

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Hmm... I'm not sure how you can sit there and say that there are a minute amount of people who cling to the right to bear arms and their faith as a solution to their economic hardship. It doesn't make sense to me. At all. Who are these people, and why do they think faith will allow them to help their finances and get back at the government that they're so bitter towards?
Go back and re-read Obama's statement. You appear to be taking liberties with what he said.

"So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
(emphasis added)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I also fail to see how if one person fits that description it makes Sen. Obama right and veritable and OSC completely and utterly wrong.
Because finding a black swan invalidates the argument that there aren't any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Here's what it comes down to.
<snip>
You don't.
I do.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Overall, I don't think that we can argue more about this subject (besides the specific things I just asked). It's just circling around word choice and this fundamental difference we have in opinion.
Perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I still do - but I much prefer these little discussions we have
Me too

Thanks for the enjoyable discussion!

Last edited by Achilles; 05-04-2008 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:24 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Unfortunately when it comes to people, we have what they do and what they say. In both cases, we have nothing that would indicate to us that Obama is racists.
I haven't found anything in his speeches or books that would indicate that, either, but I'm glad he's clarified it for the record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Or do you get most of everything in sound bites via the media?
No--I went back and read the texts of Wright's sermons to get the full context. Some of it was blown out of proportion, particularly the 'chickens have come home to roost' sermon where I felt he was saying more 'We're getting what we deserve and shouldn't be acting surprised when it happens' more than 'I hate America and God should damn it' as is portrayed in the media. I think some of it is also a knee-jerk reaction to the obvious reference to Malcolm X's 'chickens have come home to roost' speech 40 years back. Some of Wright's comments in other sermons were racist, however, and he is not apologetic about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
"Black supremacist"?
My apologies for the grammar error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Assuming that Obama diligently attended church every Sunday for 20 years, keep in mind that Rev. Wright gives three sermons (assuming that he never took a Sunday off either). Each of these is separate from the others, so there aren't any repeats.
My pastor gave 2 sermons on Sunday when we had split into two services, and while not exact, they are very, very close to each other. I think it was highly likely that Wright did something like that--the sermons obviously could not be identical, but they would be essentially the same. I don't think that Wright said racist/inflammatory things or wrote inflammatory articles for the church bulletin every week. However, he did say that often enough for Obama to have heard/read them.

Obama himself admitted in his March 18th speech not long after the Wright controversy broke that he had indeed heard Wright say inflammatory comments. Some of the church bulletins from the weeks that Obama attended had inflammatory comments in them. If Obama heard or read those comments and continued to sit in the pew nodding, clapping, and giving an 'amen!' to Wright, is it unreasonable to assume that he might have agreed with the Reverend, until he came out and specified that he did not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Because Obama is half-white, was raised in a multi-cultural family
As I noted above with the proviso, if skin color wasn't what you were talking about, then the argument didn't apply. So I appreciate the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm assuming that McCain and Clinton have sufficiently crossed the "racist" threshold for you?
No, actually, they have not completely done so--I haven't heard them talk a lot about race except in reference to finding some of Wright's comments offensive, and they both were very careful in their wording. That's at least a start, however. They both grew up during the pre-Civil Rights era and likely were exposed to racist ideas given the sentiments of the time. Saying anything racist at this point would be political suicide for each so I doubt we'll hear anything remotely racist pass their lips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
And hopefully you'll have a chance to attend a rally at some point too.
I would have loved to have gone to one, but the lovely WI blizzards and work prevented it. Both Clinton and he had to cancel some rallies in WI because it was just too dangerous if not impossible to travel--some roads actually got shut down for awhile because the snowplows couldn't keep up. Yay for 16 inch snowfalls. I'll have to live with speech transcripts unless he happens to swing back this way again sometime, and I hope he does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I think we need to be very careful to distinguish between "black theology" and "black supremacy". I've seen a few people use these interchangeably, however they are not the same thing.
No, they are certainly not interchangeable, and I don't use them that way even if others might. 'Black theology' mixes religion heavily with social justice issues and to some extent politics (e.g King's sermons) but is careful not to be racist. For 'black supremacy' I go with the definition "Black supremacy is a racist ideology which holds that black people are superior to other races and is manifested in bigotry towards persons not of African ancestry". Wright's sermons include both black theology and racism, though the media has focused far more on his racist comments than on his social justice/religious comments.

As long as Obama can continue to clearly articulate that he does agree with Wright's racist comments, he's going to weather the storm just fine. He's in a tough spot having to be clear on how he feels about those comments while not throwing his friend and mentor to the wolves.


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