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Old 06-19-2007, 02:15 PM   #41
Corinthian
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For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.
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Old 06-19-2007, 02:29 PM   #42
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I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.

And if you look into it, even if you believe the EU 100% Emerald Lightning and Force Lighting are two different things altogether. Emerald causes pain but does not harm flesh, Force Lightning is a projection of hate and pain that causes pain and mutilates the body. Calling the two the same is silly. True, it can be argued that Force Lightning could be used to help someone, but as Prime has stated: Force Lightning is not actual electricity and even if it is it is still created by the cruelty and hatred of the darkside.

I agree with a lot of what you are all saying. I'm personally using Force Lightning in my fic to save someone by restarting their heart, but as I will say again I have created my own Star Wars universe to play around in. Prime so far is one of the few that has held completely true to the films and what message and story they put across. Star Wars is a fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil and only the EU has room to argue and the best example of EU not agreeing with that would have to be the two Kotor games.

If I wasn't so tired right now I would make a better example than the one i am about to use...

I don't know if any of you know about this old anime, but it is called Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon uses love and heart to banish the evil demons sent to take souls from earth using cruelty and evil. So, lets apply relativety to this. Sailor Moon can now control powers of the underworld because it is still magic and she is using it for the "right reason."
It makes no sense to have someone as kind and loving as Sailor Moon control the evil demons and powers of the underworld to destroy the forces of evil. The story states she uses love and kindness of heart to power her magic, so what right do editors and such really have to give her the powers of the underworld.

That was a terrible example, but I think you get my point :P
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
For the record, there is no "Force Push" "Force Pull" or "Force Grip." It's just telekinesis.
Where did you get that information? If that's the case, Obi-Wan was using the same power when he pushed droids as Vader was when he strangled Ozzel; we know that's not true. It's true that all of those powers manipulate things telekinetically, but that doesn't make them all the same power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I think it should just be accepted that Star Wars is your basic fantasy universe of Good Vs. Evil. I justify my fic version of the Force as relative because it is a universe I have created that is similar to Star Wars, but holds many real life elements and thus is no longer Star Wars. EU has many very questionable things that are placed there by authors incorporating real life elements into Star Wars, thus they ruin the Good and Evil story the films tried to create.
Good point. The EU, like your stories, is no longer Star Wars because of its wider view of the Force. I am in favor of separating the EU and the movies whenever possible.

Last edited by Ecthelion; 06-19-2007 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 06-20-2007, 03:38 PM   #44
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Well, but kotor IS EU. And for the record, saving people with DS lightning style is done in EU for more than once. It is considered to be a DS action cause it Forcably BEND the force to one's own will against its natural flow. Anakin did it way back in the Clone Wars,and His great great great... great grand son succeed it pulling it out twice, once on some horny guy the other on some princess brat.
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Old 06-21-2007, 01:10 PM   #45
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But IIRC the other Jon Ostrander mentioned that that was not sith lightning, but some other power...

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Old 06-21-2007, 03:12 PM   #46
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Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check.

But basically I think this comes down to if you invoke a force power flowing WITH the white current of the force flow itself, of you forceably bend it against its flow by sheer brute domination. Grated, many of the force powers are quite neutral in that it requires only a smell detour for the force even when it comes to a DS wielder, while some techniques have an obvious twist and domination of the force flow. Things like Force Rage is almost definitely DS, but the rest is somewhat grey.

I mean if ther is DS technique to heal and revive and LS techniques to cause destruction, then the line is pretty blurr indeed.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:21 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoiuyWired
Then I will have to reread it ... if I can find the books. But yes Cade is not a good example cause of all the anger inside him. As for Anakin's case, I need to find it and double check.
If you do, note that after he uses it (at least the second time) he has "Sith eyes" like Anakin did. So that implies that what he did, even if for good intentions, was of the dark side.

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Old 05-04-2008, 03:15 PM   #48
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That's true. In the end, my primary source is just my belief that Luke couldn't give in to the Dark Side, because he's the "good guy" (and because it would make Dark Empire more believable, which is unacceptable to me). Let's move on.
Why do you find Dark Empire unacceptable? I personally thought it was a great sotry,and remember, it was written before any of the chilidsh "chosen one" crap was made up. I personally think Luke is more Jedi than Anakin will ever be, even though hes only the "catalyst" that allowed Anakin to complete the prophecy.

Also, I think Dark Empire was a great story, GL himself said it was the closest thing to a sequel trilogy there is. What do you have against it?
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:00 PM   #49
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Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:25 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?
Because if he had destroyed the fleet at Sullust, he wouldnt have got the chance to seduce Luke as his apprentice, because Luke was more powerful potentially than Vader, so he wanted Luke to continue the Sith legacy.
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Old 05-04-2008, 05:53 PM   #51
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Fire at will

Quote:
1) Darth Vader uses force protect against blaster fire in Ep5
That's not force protect. It's just the armor on Vader's suit.

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Emerald Lightning and Force Lighting are two different things altogether. Emerald causes pain but does not harm flesh, Force Lightning is a projection of hate and pain that causes pain and mutilates the body.
What? Emerald lightning is shown to kill people instantly.

Quote:
Dark Empire is ludicrous, but not because of Luke falling to the Dark Side. The Force Storms, for example, are the most ridiculous plot hole I've ever seen - I.E., why didn't he use them to destroy the Rebel Fleet amassing at Sullust before the Battle of Endor?
You forgot the use of the force to absorb canon fire from an AT-AT walker before crushing it to bits with the force, walking on top of lava (someplace other than Dark Empire), and force lightning which kills people instantly (NJO). That's just off the top of my head.

Quote:
Why do you find Dark Empire unacceptable? I personally thought it was a great sotry,and remember, it was written before any of the chilidsh "chosen one" crap was made up. I personally think Luke is more Jedi than Anakin will ever be, even though hes only the "catalyst" that allowed Anakin to complete the prophecy.

Also, I think Dark Empire was a great story, GL himself said it was the closest thing to a sequel trilogy there is. What do you have against it?
Since when does the Chosen One have to be a Jedi at all? That aside, there is no way I can comprehend the idea of a real person saying with a straight face that Dark Empire is a good, the Lord God himself forbid a great story. With this post I enclose a list of reasons.

1. The [aforementioned] insane force powers.

2. It follows the plot device entitled "When in doubt, resurrect the old main villain".

3. Palpatine returning and reunifying the Empire with a gigantic amount of overpowered ships and superweapons in practically the blink of an eye completely destroys the sense that the heroes ever accomplished anything in Episode 6. It's even lamer that he can resurrect himself over and over with the clone bodies junk.

4. The drawing style put Chuck Norris into a coma when he tried to read it (true story).

5. The unneeded load of overpowered superweapons that Palpatine whips up like popcorn. The best example is, of course, the "Galaxy Gun", which is basically the concept of the Death Star, but on enough crack and steroids to run a smuggling ring with.

6. Palpatine becomes an absolute idiot in Dark Empire. The idea that he would seriously want Luke as an apprentice after Episode 6 is an insult to his character. He himself saw firsthand that Luke's family has a history of treachery. Why would he take such a chance again when he really doesn't need to?

7. Palpatine acts like gigantic flaming moron throughout Dark Empire, but the magnitude of his idiocy doesn't hit full force until the climax, where he decides that his best course of action is (in order to escape death from his current degenerating body) to transfer his mind into the body of an infant. Just what the hell was he thinking?

I seriously cannot imagine there being a need for any more reasons. All of those were off the top of my head. Your statement that this is any less "childish" than the Chosen One plotline is an absolute mystery to me. Say what you want about the prequels, but Dark Empire makes the worst mistakes a storyline can have, including repeated resurrection of the main villain, ridiculous plot holes, overpowered weapons, overpowered characters, and the corruption of a formerly excellent villain into a blithering retard.

Quote:
Because if he had destroyed the fleet at Sullust, he wouldnt have got the chance to seduce Luke as his apprentice, because Luke was more powerful potentially than Vader, so he wanted Luke to continue the Sith legacy.
Luke was not crucial to the Empire's success. Palpatine having an apprentice at all wasn't necessary either. The only reason he kept Vader around was because there was no reason to get rid of him, and he kept officers in line and so on. Besides, if Luke wasn't an option, Jerec could have made just as good an apprentice.

Besides, even if that excuse wasn't full of holes, it still doesn't explain why Palpatine didn't just use the force storms at Endor after Luke was on the Death Star II. And don't say that he couldn't because he was busy concentrating on the affair with Luke and Vader, because Dark Empire shows him to be capable of controlling a Force Storm while watching TV and running on a treadmill (a real multi-tasker).


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 05-04-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
That's not force protect. It's just the armor on Vader's suit..
...? Where was that confirmed? I thought that was one of those Han-shot-first moments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
1. The [aforementioned] insane force powers.
(nod, nod)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
2. It follows the plot device entitled "When in doubt, resurrect the old main villain".
It wasn't done too badly, all things considered, but otherwise I agree that it is overdone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
It's even lamer that he can resurrect himself over and over with the clone bodies junk.
See above. But, we all knew the 'cloned-villain-returning' was coming...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
5. The unneeded load of overpowered superweapons that Palpatine whips up like popcorn.
Exactly my thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
7. Palpatine acts like gigantic flaming moron throughout Dark Empire, but the magnitude of his idiocy doesn't hit full force until the climax, where he decides that his best course of action is (in order to escape death from his current degenerating body) to transfer his mind into the body of an infant. Just what the hell was he thinking?
See above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
how come it's DS to harm human beings with Lighting, but purely LS to blow up droids? Can't droids feel pain?
Yeah... was wondering about that and if it is actually lightning or that's just a gaming visual effect like the sparkles during battle meditation. I'm pretty sure though, that Stun/Destroy Droid, etc. only short-circits the droid, which may not nessisarily cause pain like torture where they remain 'concious'.

I seem to be a minority on these boards, since I see nothing wrong with attaching the real-world confusing identities of light and dark to Star Wars, as long as the light and dark exist. But most of the power's alignments seem determined by the user's intent and their use, while others are clearly light or dark (Force Healing and Force Lightning respectively)...yeah, I have nothing else to say now.
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:47 PM   #53
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...? Where was that confirmed? I thought that was one of those Han-shot-first moments...
It wasn't really confirmed anywhere that it was protect anymore than it was the armor on his suit, but the ladder made much more sense to me, since his hand under that glove is made of solid durasteel (or whatever they call it) and his hands continue to smoke after the shots impact. If he absorbed or deflected them with the force, there wouldn't be any smoke or sparks.

As for the Stun/Destroy Droid power, I always figured that was unnecessary to have, since it looks the same as lightning (and I don't see why lightning wouldn't have the same effects).


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:26 PM   #54
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Most of the EU after Episode 6, seems at least to me to be stupid and a great mess. Infact I think a great deal has been done to trash the whole of Star Wars really.

On-topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda
A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.



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Old 05-05-2008, 05:41 AM   #55
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WEll whatever you say, I liked DArk Empire because it was the first EU stuff I ever read. And it started the entire Ulic Qel-Droma old sith thing didnt it? So without DE wed never have KOTOR. Or maybe that was the Kyp Durron/Admiral Daala story, I never remember. Mybe theytook Exar from Kyp and Ulic from DE and tied it all together. I dunno.

And back on topic, Jedi Master Arka Jeth reassembles the inside of the Droids, changing all the wires around and everything, with telekinesis, to disable droids when hes fighting the Krath on Deneba or wherever it was.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:25 AM   #56
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Yeah it was Ulic and the Krath, but that was in the end notes, not the main story and probably would of been released regardless. The Background given in the endnotes was essentially a rough draft, it is very different from the actual Tales of the Jedi comics.

topic: Remember that in the OT it was only explained that there were Jedi who could use the force for "Special abilities", for all we knew lightning and choking were a Jedi skill, and there were Jedi who weren't the good guys anymore, Game mechanics and EU Expanded on force alignment and opposing skills and force powers between Sith/Dark Jedi and Jedi


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Old 05-05-2008, 09:35 AM   #57
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Thinking more on the subject, choking isnt an evil power. Basically, either youre using telekinesis to block the victims windpipe, just as one would when normally chooking someone, or stopping all the molecules of oxygen from being breathed in, making the victims ashypxiate from breathing nitrogen and CO2.

A much more effetive use of telekinesis would be using force pull to rip the victims windpipe right out of his body.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:02 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
for all we knew lightning and choking were a Jedi skill
Lucas has stated that lightning is a Sith power that requires the use of the dark side.

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Old 05-05-2008, 11:04 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime
Lucas has stated that lightning is a Sith power that requires the use of the dark side.
for all we "Knew", I was speaking about the OT when it was released, before all the interviews conjecture EU and the prequels



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Old 05-05-2008, 11:14 AM   #60
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Sorry. Misread.

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Old 05-05-2008, 11:25 AM   #61
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If I had written what you thought you read you would be right


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Old 05-05-2008, 01:46 PM   #62
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Emerald Judgment. 'nuff said on the lightning front.
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:08 PM   #63
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Plo Koon can use Electric Judgement in Jedi Power Battles cant he? (arghh i loved that game)
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:41 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
But the best defense is to attack.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:34 PM   #65
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Plo Koon can use Electric Judgement in Jedi Power Battles cant he? (arghh i loved that game)
I don't think that game can be taken as a canonical source, since it only loosely follows the movie and allows for people who weren't on Naboo to be there.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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