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Old 05-08-2008, 05:33 PM   #41
*Don*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
If Sean Bell & Co would have complied he wouldn't have died and then everyone would have been saved. It's absolutely his fault. They acted in order to prevent a murder. It's a valid excuse if you think you're going to die. They didn't just start shooting. There were exigent circumstances.
I'm not saying that the cops were wrong to fire. In fact, all I'm trying to say is that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Don*
They should have at least been charged with something....
50 bullets is a lot. I dont' think there's any man that can continue to make threatening movements after getting shot more than 15 times (like the passenger). Accordingly, I feel that they should have at least been charged with "use of excessive force".


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Old 05-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
Guys, watch the tone. There's no reason we can't discuss this maturely, no reason we have to resort to pointed condescension and sarcasm.

Play nice.
I apologize. My Fault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don

50 bullets is a lot. I dont' think there's any man that can continue to make threatening movements after getting shot more than 15 times (like the passenger). Accordingly, I feel that they should have at least been charged with "use of excessive force".
I can agree with this.


_EW_

Niner: Tell me if this is ok? I was responding when the post disappeared.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
{snipped, inflamatory ice cream truck comment}
To be honest, the point was if they announce themselves as cops, then the car doesn't much matter.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
I'm quoting from the Wiki article you linked to
Nowhere in it did it describe the cops as large and intimidating. It did say 2 were black and 1 was hispanic, but I wasn't really disputing that.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
Last I checked, that's not reasonable cause to kill them
They were evading arrest after threatening to kill a woman. He was perceived to be raising a weapon. That is probable cause.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
according to the article, the cops also believe a mysterous "4th person" left the car at some point and he had the gun(it's in the Wiki article). now, if the cops thought this guy had the gun, why did they unload on the guys in the car?
The article states he "said that he saw a fourth man in the car, who fled the scene amid the chaos, possibly in possession of the alleged weapon."

This means that during the commotion, one guy gets out and runs. That's the defense's explanation as to why the gun wasn't found. They didn't know who had it at the time.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
It's about 17 per person in the car.
The way you said this was unclear. I stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
a seasoned police vetran who's obviously gone through more than just this thinks he's going to die.
I don't care how much experience a cop has, every time a gun is thought to be pulled and you have a chance of dying your adrenal glands kick in and so does fear. Fight or Flight, baby.

I probably started most of this, but I'm trying to tone it down now that I see some of the things that were said and now that Niner said something. So I apologize again to anyone I have offended, and I hope we can continue this discussion. I would hate to cause it to be locked.

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Old 05-08-2008, 07:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
To be honest, the point was if they announce themselves as cops, then the car doesn't much matter.
the testimony here was sketchy, some accounts say they didn't, some say they did, though it's a lot of he-said she-said.

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Nowhere in it did it describe the cops as large and intimidating. It did say 2 were black and 1 was hispanic, but I wasn't really disputing that.
I have met only one small and slim male cop. I know many and the police dept used to train on my college campus. Very, VERY few cops are small and not intimidating. Given the location, I doubt these cops fit the "not intimidating" profile.

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They were evading arrest after threatening to kill a woman. He was perceived to be raising a weapon. That is probable cause.
The cops overheard what they perceived was a threat. He was thought to HAVE a weapon, he was told to raise his hands, and the cops also believed this one weapon was in the hands of the mysterious man who ran away. So I question: were is the gun? In the hands of the man who was in the car(Guzman), or the guy running away? They obviously weren't shooting at the guy running away(considering the 19 shots in Guzman), so I find that claim of theirs that there was a 4th man who had a gun somewhat sketchy. And if it's true, then what explains the holes in Guzman?

Quote:
The article states he "said that he saw a fourth man in the car, who fled the scene amid the chaos, possibly in possession of the alleged weapon."
Honestly, very little of it strikes me as "chaos", all 3 men were trapped in the car while the officers fired upon them, one man, if he really existed, escaped with the alleged gun. If he had the gun, why shoot the car?

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This means that during the commotion, one guy gets out and runs. That's the defense's explanation as to why the gun wasn't found. They didn't know who had it at the time.
But the defense maintained that Guzman had the gun, AND this guy running away had the gun. It sounds like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Either the gun ran away with the 4th guy, or the gun was with Guzman, or there was no gun.

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The way you said this was unclear. I stand corrected.
yeah, I wasn't too clear there.

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I don't care how much experience a cop has, every time a gun is thought to be pulled and you have a chance of dying your adrenal glands kick in and so does fear. Fight or Flight, baby.
Cops are trained to be able to resist this. If every cop freaked the moment a gun was pulled, cops would probably be shooting each other. The cops asked the men in the car to stay in the car and raise their hands, they didn't and ended up hitting the unmarked cop car. The cops opened fire here after they claimed Guzman reached for a gun and the 4th guy ran away with a gun.

After putting 19 holes in a guy, and finding no gun at the scene, it's easy to surmise that Guzman did not reach for a gun, and while being unloaded upon, did not hand it to the 4th guy who ran away.

I'm not saying the cops don't have a right to defend themselves, but like everyone else, that right exists within limits. If a criminal breaks into my house, I have the right to defend myself, I do not have the right to break every bone in his body or bash his skull into pulp. If a criminal is pulling a gun, a cop has the right to defend themselves, within reason.

3-5 shots is within reason. There is no excuse for 31, especially when reloading requires the conscious effort to realize your gun is empty, release the clip, pull a new clip, insert the clip, and resume firing until all 15 shots are gone again.

I don't agree that they're murderers, but I do agree they were reckless and used "excessive force".


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Old 05-08-2008, 09:04 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
the testimony here was sketchy, some accounts say they didn't, some say they did, though it's a lot of he-said she-said.
Most of the people who claim they didn't were quite drunk, but possible.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
I have met only one small and slim male cop. I know many and the police dept used to train on my college campus. Very, VERY few cops are small and not intimidating. Given the location, I doubt these cops fit the "not intimidating" profile.
From Sean Bell (An intimidating black man)'s point of view, maybe they weren't. I understand where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Web Rider
But the defense maintained that Guzman had the gun, AND this guy running away had the gun. It sounds like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Either the gun ran away with the 4th guy, or the gun was with Guzman, or there was no gun.
I agree. They used it as an excuse ex post facto.
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Originally Posted by Web Rider
I'm not saying the cops don't have a right to defend themselves, but like everyone else, that right exists within limits. If a criminal breaks into my house, I have the right to defend myself, I do not have the right to break every bone in his body or bash his skull into pulp. If a criminal is pulling a gun, a cop has the right to defend themselves, within reason.

3-5 shots is within reason. There is no excuse for 31, especially when reloading requires the conscious effort to realize your gun is empty, release the clip, pull a new clip, insert the clip, and resume firing until all 15 shots are gone again.

I don't agree that they're murderers, but I do agree they were reckless and used "excessive force".
I can agree that the force might have been excessive. But it certainly was not manslaughter in the first degree. They don't deserve jail time.

_EW_

For anyone interested, the big man himself will be on Hannity & Colmes at 9PM EDT (right now).

They've got the Rev. Al Sharpton "straight from his jail cell."

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Old 05-08-2008, 09:23 PM   #45
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You guys still haven't explained where that gun is that Sean Bell was allegedly reaching for. How could he reach for a gun that doesn't exist?

The fact of the matter is that an innocent, unarmed, black man was gunned down by police, because they thought he was "reaching for a gun." How many times has this scenerio played out? Too many times.

Cops are held to such a low standard when it comes to their liberal use of deadly force. They are allowed to essentially murder innocent, unarmed people just because of a suspicion. If I were suspicious that someone was going to pull a gun on me, and I shoot him, and he turns out to have been unarmed, I would be convicted of murder, no doubt about it. The police CANNOT be held to a lower standard than the average citizen.
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
You guys still haven't explained where that gun is that Sean Bell was allegedly reaching for. How could he reach for a gun that doesn't exist?
They never thought Bell was reaching for the gun. It was his passenger. But now I'm arguing semantics. The group said that they would 'get his gun' and then the guy reaches for something. 2+2 equals 5 only according to Orwell. They had cause to believe it.

I think they acted in a manner that showed a desire for self-preservation as they were trying to apprehend this supposedly armed man.

And I think that an extenuating circumstance exists here, as do I think that since cops have had additional training and such that they should be allowed to be more liberal with the use of deadly force. If a person is in your house, and you believe him to be armed, and you shoot him, you shouldn't be convicted, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Boba Rhett
As I said, most states, 31 of them I believe, currently support the stand-your-ground policy which, and I quote, which expressly relieves the home's occupants of any duty to retreat or announce their intent to use deadly force before they can be legally justified in doing so to defend themselves.
There we go. This is just a more intense version of self defense in a situation that existed because of the safety of the public.

The whole point of them being cops is that they should know how to respond in scenarios that might involve lethal force, and if they do, then we can't fault them for doing what they have to in order to keep us safe. (Within reason, of course.)

I think that it would be a perversion of justice for these men to go to jail for 25 years.

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Old 05-08-2008, 10:22 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TK-8252
The fact of the matter is that an innocent, unarmed, black man was gunned down by police, because they thought he was "reaching for a gun." How many times has this scenerio played out? Too many times.
If you are attempting to play the ZOMG RACISM! card, you'll have to try again, the cops in question were of mixed race, white, black, hispanic, this was not an instance of 5 white cops mowing down a couple black guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I think they acted in a manner that showed a desire for self-preservation as they were trying to apprehend this supposedly armed man.
A desire for self preservation is when I fire a shot or two at the guy who spooked me. Reckless abandon is when I fire 30 rounds, the self preservation argument runs out after the 15th shot or so.

Quote:
And I think that an extenuating circumstance exists here, as do I think that since cops have had additional training and such that they should be allowed to be more liberal with the use of deadly force. If a person is in your house, and you believe him to be armed, and you shoot him, you shouldn't be convicted, in my opinion.
No, what we should be is more understanding of their use of force. Cops are trained in the use of force, and therefore should be MORE able than the average person to exercise it at the right times, and within reason. They should be held to a higher standard when it comes to exercising force. A normal man will get scared and shoot. A cop will get tough and might shoot, or might not, and if they do, they won't empty two whole clips into a car.

Quote:
The whole point of them being cops is that they should know how to respond in scenarios that might involve lethal force, and if they do, then we can't fault them for doing what they have to in order to keep us safe. (Within reason, of course.)
"keeping us safe" is a false argument. They could very easily have "kept us safe" by dragging the men out of the car and cuffing them.

Quote:
I can agree that the force might have been excessive. But it certainly was not manslaughter in the first degree. They don't deserve jail time.
For manslaughter? no, for excessive use of force and reckless use a weapon, yeah, I think they might. Though, I would specifically target the one cop who fired 31 shots.


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Old 05-08-2008, 11:54 PM   #48
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Given that they're shooting at targets that aren't exactly at point blank range in a car, 50 shots is perfectly reasonable from five officers. Each officer pulls his weapon and opens fire. Again, police procedure is to open fire until suspects are no longer moving when deadly force is deemed to be reasonable, which, in this case, it was. The police were threatened and a suspect went for an unknown object. Suspecting the presence of a firearm is not unreasonable in the slightest degree. I'm pleased to see these officers were not punished for doing exactly what they were trained to do.

Furthermore, Sean Bell was not just some family man out for a night of drinking. He was a drug dealer, who also had a previous conviction for firearms.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Given that they're shooting at targets that aren't exactly at point blank range in a car, 50 shots is perfectly reasonable from five officers.
Actually, 20 shots is perfectly reasonable for 4 officers. 31 came from a single officer. If each cop fired 10 shots, okay, that's more balanced. But that's not what happened. And, I'm not sure how far away "point blank" is? Obviously one or more cops knocked on a window of the car, and the car did not move a great distance when it hit the undercover cop car. So, 5, maybe 10 feet from any point of the car? maybe a few more between there and a person inside? Considering that 26 of the 50 shots hit a person, and 19 of them hit a single man, I have to argue that accuracy was not questionable at the range at which the officers stood.

I know the nearest target at the local gun-range is about 20 feet. We usually shoot at baseballs, which as you are aware, are smaller than people. It's pretty hard not to hit within about 2 feet of the baseball, which on an average person, means at best you're missing by a few inches. The fact that

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The police were threatened and a suspect went for an unknown object.
no police officer was threatened in the slightest, a perceived threat was issued against a later-named female who was NOT an officer.

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Suspecting the presence of a firearm is not unreasonable in the slightest degree.
Since a comment was made about a gun, I agree. Suspecting a firearm without reason is not acceptable.

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I'm pleased to see these officers were not punished for doing exactly what they were trained to do.
I would agree that, with the exception of the one officer who fired 31 shots, this is correct.

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Furthermore, Sean Bell was not just some family man out for a night of drinking. He was a drug dealer, who also had a previous conviction for firearms.
Which justifies extra violence? You are presuming these cops were familiar with the man. A record does not mean this record is installed in every officer, they may have known who he was, they may not, comments were not made by the officers to indicate this.


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Old 05-09-2008, 01:47 AM   #50
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They were still moving. One officer reloads because they are not all lying completely still dead or praying to Mother Theresa and all the saints above that the fires of Heaven doesn't smite their vehicle. Simple as that.

Also, my error. They threatened someone else. Makes no difference.

And he knocked on a window, then the car sped away and smashed into another car. That could be as few as five feet or he could have gone halfway across the parking lot. Without the case photos, it'll be pretty hard to find out.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:06 AM   #51
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Face it, one of the big problems officers face in the field is uncertainty. You can't just assume that once you identify yourself as police that the other guy is just going to agree to cooperate. Couple this with the fact that police are going to have to deal with people better armed than they are and you should be able to see the problem. If they "knew" that these guys had no weapons at all (try proving that), you'd have a point about just forcing them out of the car. These guys clearly had no intention of cooperating with the police. I'd agree to the excessive violent stance if you could demonstrate that it was snipers that shot someone 19+ times. Drug dealers and gang bangers are known to use some pretty heavy firepower and usually aren't at all worried about a cop's safety.


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Old 05-09-2008, 02:06 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
They were still moving. One officer reloads because they are not all lying completely still dead or praying to Mother Theresa and all the saints above that the fires of Heaven doesn't smite their vehicle. Simple as that.
Movement does not give police justification to kill somebody. Saying "get out of the car with your hands up" is not the same as saying "don't move". What do you want them to do? Hold still or get out of the car.

And who holds still when being shot at? I imagine when the massive pain of being shot hits you, you're going to react in some fashion, that reaction is movement. You are essentially saying that reaction to the pain of being shot justifies shooting more, and in the end, killing.

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Also, my error. They threatened someone else. Makes no difference.
it does, actually, make quite the difference.

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And he knocked on a window, then the car sped away and smashed into another car. That could be as few as five feet or he could have gone halfway across the parking lot. Without the case photos, it'll be pretty hard to find out.
Given that the police unloaded most of their shots into the passenger side door and 19 of them struck a person, it's within reason to say that the cops were not behind the car when it drove off.


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Old 05-09-2008, 02:10 AM   #53
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Nineteen bullets out of 50. That's a 38% hit rate. Not very good. Pretty bloody terrible, actually. And only one suspect was killed. Which would suggest fairly good distance, or they'd all three be dead.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:15 AM   #54
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Also, my error. They threatened someone else. Makes no difference.

it does, actually, make quite the difference.
How so? Aren't the police tasked with protecting the community from criminals? Try threatening to kill someone else in the presence of police in a tense situation and see what happens.


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Old 05-09-2008, 02:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
Nineteen bullets out of 50. That's a 38% hit rate. Not very good. Pretty bloody terrible, actually. And only one suspect was killed. Which would suggest fairly good distance, or they'd all three be dead.
Actually, 26(four in Bell, 3 in Benefield) hit people, I was referencing how 19 hit a single person, I should have been more clear. So it's something like a 52% hit rate, which, considering that 19 hit the intended target, Guzman(police believed he had the gun), I'd say that's a pretty good ratio.

Now, not all the shots may have been aimed at him of course, but I'd have to say, even guys in warzones, where thousands of bullets are being fired, guys usually only get hit 5-6 times and they're down. 19/50 in one guy is pretty good in my book.


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Old 05-09-2008, 02:20 AM   #56
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Face it, if you don't cooperate with the police and even look like you might be going for a weapon......you've signed your own death warrant. Same goes for soldiers. Why it's never a good idea to put yourself in that situation.


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Old 05-09-2008, 03:27 AM   #57
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Whatever. My point is that if they were at point blank or very short range, the ratios would be higher. 52% is still pretty low for a confrontation with them less than ten feet from the target. These guys got what they paid for - you floor it and then go for an unknown object in front of five cops and you're asking to get bullets.

And, once again, just to make sure everyone gets the picture, Police Procedure - FIRE UNTIL TARGETS ARE NO LONGER A THREAT. At longer ranges, it's harder to differentiate moving targets from being sobbing as they slowly die and bringing their gun around so they can shoot at the cops.

Also, I'm not convinced about the nonexistence of the Fourth Man.
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:48 PM   #58
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Furthermore, Sean Bell was not just some family man out for a night of drinking. He was a drug dealer, who also had a previous conviction for firearms.
What does that have anything to do with it?
At the time of the shooting, the cops didn't know that. At that point in time, he was just some random man who possibly posed a threat.

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Face it, if you don't cooperate with the police and even look like you might be going for a weapon......you've signed your own death warrant. Same goes for soldiers. Why it's never a good idea to put yourself in that situation.
But these werent cops. They were undercover cops.
Had they been in uniform, the situation would have been entirely different.


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Old 05-09-2008, 04:12 PM   #59
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You want a British opinion?

Yet more evidence that your gun laws don't work!

We've just had someone shot to death by police; last one was Menezes over 3 years ago (and both of those were wrong). I don't understand some of you defending the police for shooting an innocent man.

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Face it, if you don't cooperate with the police and even look like you might be going for a weapon......you've signed your own death warrant. Same goes for soldiers. Why it's never a good idea to put yourself in that situation.
WRONG! What happened to innocent untill proven guilty? Police aren't soldiers, they are not in a battlefield. Last time I checked, martial law hadn't been declared for the above. If an area is so bad the police are shooting like the above, you should call the national guard in.

See, while the above two I think were incorrectly shot, in Britain the average police officer does not presume someone is reaching for a gun. Your police are trained to do so, and it seems to me that racism is an ingrained phenomena in our police, so I don't like to imagine what it is like in yours...

Baseline; this is a tragedy and the Police involved should be prosecuted for murder, that'd stop them from being so trigger happy. To clarrify 50 bullets is excessive; infact murder, you should try to preserve life, last time I checked the police's job was to protect and serve. IF your going to shoot, shoot a couple of times and move in, try and negotiate.

Due proccess should be allowed to occur, the gun fixation of some in America is what has allowed this and all the tragedies before it to happen.

My 2 cents thanks for reading.



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Old 05-09-2008, 04:33 PM   #60
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Baseline; this is a tragedy and the Police involved should be prosecuted for murder, that'd stop them from being so trigger happy. To clarrify 50 bullets is excessive; infact murder, you should try to preserve life, last time I checked the police's job was to protect and serve. IF your going to shoot, shoot a couple of times and move in

Due proccess should be allowed to occur, the gun fixation of some in America is what has allowed this and all the tragedies before it to happen.
I couldn't agree more.
The police need to stop acting like their above the law.

The fact that those cops were able to get away without any charges worries me more. Their acquittal has set a precedent for the cases to come and possibly encouraged their trigger happiness.
The next time some officer shoots a man 50 times, he could very well be let off the hook thanks to this decision.


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Old 05-09-2008, 04:37 PM   #61
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Getting prosecuted for murder might be a little extreme, but I do agree that police need to stop being trigger happy.
Possibly, however ask yourself this; if 5 civilian men did the same wat would happen to them? This maybe different statesidebut here the police are supposedly under the same laws as us, so why have they not recieved the same treatment?

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The fact that those cops were able to get away without any charges worries me more. Their acquittal has set a precedent for the cases to come and possibly encouraged their trigger happiness.
The next time some officer shoots a man 50 times, he could very well be let off the hook thanks to this decision.
Agreed.



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Old 05-09-2008, 05:00 PM   #62
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Yet more evidence that your gun laws don't work!
Actually, I would argue this is a problem with the training on how police should approach and treat a situation.


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Old 05-09-2008, 05:38 PM   #63
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You want a British opinion?

Yet more evidence that your gun laws don't work!

We've just had someone shot to death by police; last one was Menezes over 3 years ago (and both of those were wrong). I don't understand some of you defending the police for shooting an innocent man.
Ah, but "monday morning quarterbacking" (ie hindsight) is deceptively easy to fall back on when you don't like an outcome. I do agree that the gun laws here don't work. Thus, why put more on the books that won't be enforced either? Perception. Looking like you're doing something, ie posturing, is always easier than actually doing anything constructive at all. Fact is, criminals don't care what the laws are, hence their classification.


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WRONG! What happened to innocent untill proven guilty? Police aren't soldiers, they are not in a battlefield. Last time I checked, martial law hadn't been declared for the above. If an area is so bad the police are shooting like the above, you should call the national guard in.

See, while the above two I think were incorrectly shot, in Britain the average police officer does not presume someone is reaching for a gun. Your police are trained to do so, and it seems to me that racism is an ingrained phenomena in our police, so I don't like to imagine what it is like in yours...
Actually, you're wrong here. I'm not saying that my "advice" is fair, just a recognition of reality. Besides, it's in the courts where your guilt or innocence is ultimately determined. Perhaps our police officers are trained that way b/c many of our criminals are often more violent than yours, or at least there are more of them. As to the racism quip, don't you think you might be guilty of projecting that quality onto them (as you don't seem totally sure)?
Quote:
Baseline; this is a tragedy and the Police involved should be prosecuted for murder, that'd stop them from being so trigger happy. To clarrify 50 bullets is excessive; infact murder, you should try to preserve life, last time I checked the police's job was to protect and serve. IF your going to shoot, shoot a couple of times and move in, try and negotiate.

Due proccess should be allowed to occur, the gun fixation of some in America is what has allowed this and all the tragedies before it to happen.

My 2 cents thanks for reading.
I disagree. Once again, 50 bullets/cop would make a stronger case for what you allege. Outside of a hostage situation, it's not exactly a policeman's requirement to negotiate in order to do his job. What's he going to negotiate anyway...."Drop your guns and lay down on the ground so we don't have to fill you full of lead" ? The judge, not the police officer, will fianlly decide their fate. As to the gun fixation crack, I guess that's why every gun owner goes off and randomly shoots people for the helluva it. We've got pretty big borders, so gun smuggling (like illegals and drugs) wouldn't be all that hard. I would think that the biggest proponents of gun control are probably the facists and the criminal class. The timid as well, I suppose.


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Old 05-09-2008, 05:48 PM   #64
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Your police are trained to do so, and it seems to me that racism is an ingrained phenomena in our police, so I don't like to imagine what it is like in yours...
hmmm, missed this, well...

You can't really call racism here, as the team of detectives was of mixed races, though I've only found mentions of two whites and one black. Their race however, does not mean they are racist.


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Old 05-09-2008, 05:52 PM   #65
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Sean Bell got exactly what he was bargaining for by fleeing from a police officer.
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:01 PM   #66
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You can't really call racism here, as the team of detectives was of mixed races...
Agreed.
Had racism been a factor, it would've been a different story.

On another note, if I had to pinpoint the problem, I'd probably say the cause of all this is fear.
Police officers in the cities these days are just plain scared (and I can't really blame them). I realize that I'm making a generalization, but for the most part, it's true.
The alarming availability of firearms coupled with the rise in gang membership has driven the average inner city police officer to a stage of paranoia.
They see sudden movement in an alley from a person and automatically reach for their gun.

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Sean Bell got exactly what he was bargaining for by fleeing from a police officer.
Did he really? How so?

Cops are only allowed to use one level of more advanced weaponry when dealing with criminals.

If a criminal tries to punch them, they can use tear gas, or a nightstick.
If a criminal tries to stab them, they can use their gun or taser.

But if a person, who has no visible weaponry, run from the cops, they can only give chase (or use a taser).
They can't just shoot him.

Also, he wasn't fleeing from a police officer.
He was fleeing from undercover cops.
It makes a world of a difference. Had he been escaping from a uniformed officer, it would have made sense. But he never saw the man's badge or had any proof that he was a cop. For all we kno, he could have thought that he was being carjacked and wanted to escape.
At that point in time, he was just a random man trying to get away from some guys he didn't know.


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Old 05-09-2008, 06:27 PM   #67
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Sean Bell got exactly what he was bargaining for by fleeing from a police officer.
"It's easy for the innocent to speak of justice. They so seldom feel it's terrible power."

Death is neither the legal nor legitimate punishment for evading arrest.


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Old 05-09-2008, 09:15 PM   #68
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If you are attempting to play the ZOMG RACISM! card, you'll have to try again, the cops in question were of mixed race, white, black, hispanic, this was not an instance of 5 white cops mowing down a couple black guys.
Just because one of the cops was black does not mean that he can't be racist. There are lots of black cops who are just as prejudice as white cops. White or black, cops racially profile, no doubt about it.

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Furthermore, Sean Bell was not just some family man out for a night of drinking. He was a drug dealer, who also had a previous conviction for firearms.
So then **** Sean and his rights as an American citizen and a human being. Mistakes should not be forgiven. In fact, you should be killed for what you've done in the past. Right?

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How so? Aren't the police tasked with protecting the community from criminals? Try threatening to kill someone else in the presence of police in a tense situation and see what happens.
Police are ONLY supposed to use deadly force if there is an immediate threat to someone's life.

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Face it, if you don't cooperate with the police and even look like you might be going for a weapon......you've signed your own death warrant.
Actually, no. Police do not have the right to kill someone for not cooperating. They have the right to arrest them. As far as looking like going for a weapon... I still don't understand how Sean could have reached for a gun that is nonexistant.

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Sean Bell got exactly what he was bargaining for by fleeing from a police officer.
Ridiculous. First of all, they were undercover. That means that they look like any carjacker you might run into. And, by the way, even if the police were in uniform, evading police is not a crime that you are put to death for.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:26 PM   #69
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Actually, no. Police do not have the right to kill someone for not cooperating. They have the right to arrest them. As far as looking like going for a weapon... I still don't understand how Sean could have reached for a gun that is nonexistant.
It's not a question of rights, but common sense. If you've been told to put your hands up and you ignore them and reach for something else, it's reasonable for them to conclude that you're resisting arrest and going for a gun in the process. In that sense, you've brought it on yourself. In Sean's case, he'd had enough run ins with the cops to know what he was setting himself up for in the end. If you have a problem with false arrest....that's what the court system is for.


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Old 05-09-2008, 10:31 PM   #70
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It's not a question of rights, but common sense. If you've been told to put your hands up and you ignore them and reach for something else, it's reasonable for them to conclude that you're resisting arrest and going for a gun in the process.
Yes. But you're forgetting that these were not uniformed officers. If some random people come up to you and tell you to put your hands up, would you?
At any rate Sean Bell didn't reach for anything. He just hit the pedal and sped off for about ten seconds at which point the cops decided to blast 50 shots.


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Old 05-10-2008, 01:32 AM   #71
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I think part of the problem is that people tend to forget that there are a number of times a police officer is shot at for even a "routine" traffic stop. People attempt to kill cops with their cars all the time as well. Lets see, whether the guy pointing a gun at you is a cop or not, it is a good idea to listen to what they are saying. The longer you stay alive the better.

And Sorry, but unfortunately we haven't got all of the info. Some accounts say he reached, others say he didn't. The only thing that is being reported and repeated with any regularity is the 50 shots. None of us were there. Some of my officer friends have said it does seem excessive, but every one of them said that there can be a logical explanation for it. Once one of them stated they had a firearm, it is reasonable to assume that that person is armed.
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:08 AM   #72
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Yes. But you're forgetting that these were not uniformed officers. If some random people come up to you and tell you to put your hands up, would you?
At any rate Sean Bell didn't reach for anything. He just hit the pedal and sped off for about ten seconds at which point the cops decided to blast 50 shots.

Perhaps, but the kicker is that if they are also criminals they will be even less reluctant to kill you than the cops.


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Old 05-10-2008, 02:46 AM   #73
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If random guys come up to me, especially if they're armed, I put my bloody hands up. The car's not as important as my brains getting splattered all over the pavement. Sean Bell's actions were not just criminal, but downright idiotic. You can't outrun a bullet.
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Old 05-10-2008, 04:42 AM   #74
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If random guys come up to me, especially if they're armed, I put my bloody hands up. The car's not as important as my brains getting splattered all over the pavement. Sean Bell's actions were not just criminal, but downright idiotic. You can't outrun a bullet.
which is kinda sad in a way. We don't NEED the police to defend ourselves, if criminals realize that people are gonna kick ass and take names instead of just giving in, we'd have a lot less crime. Many petty criminals simply wouldn't risk it.


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Old 05-10-2008, 12:49 PM   #75
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which is kinda sad in a way. We don't NEED the police to defend ourselves, if criminals realize that people are gonna kick ass and take names instead of just giving in, we'd have a lot less crime. Many petty criminals simply wouldn't risk it.

Conceal and carry. Keeps 'em guessing. But Corinthian is right. If several guys with guns get the drop on you, you're pretty well screwed whether they are good guys or bad.


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There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 05-10-2008, 01:40 PM   #76
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Locked because I haven't heard anything about Al Sharpton in his own thread.

I think it's time to make a new thread to continue the discussion of Sean Bell and his death.


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