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Old 05-13-2008, 06:25 AM   #41
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And what other living thing tries to create a living creature/ intelligence.
And then has fear it might destroy its creator...

The weirdest thing is that humans know whats wrong or their problems are, but they don't do anything about it.

And like posted above, the last decades we didn't adapt, we altered the enviroment to our needs.

Though certain Chimps do build a nest/bed to sleep in, so they break off branches and leaves, destroying the structure of a tree.
Then again their ain't 6 000 000 000 chimps.


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Old 05-13-2008, 07:05 AM   #42
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main problem: greed. Enough said really. We've become to intelligent for our own good. All the deceit we are capable of.....
Shamefully we do realise we are exhausting the planet but are to selfish to act.
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:02 AM   #43
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Every species is exhausting the planet in its "corner of life". Only the whole of all species makes it a "cycle of life". The point is there is sometimes a disturbance in its balance, having its roots in one or more species whose populations are growing to fast/big. We're surely not the first ones who eat up the planet. However, we are (supposedly) the first ones able to actually recognise that and its not like we're doing nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I say all this because I think it's necessary to point out that the two, seeming opposing ideas presented in the original post need not be mutually exclusive. Humans can be both well-adapted and flawed at the same time. We do not need to reconcile either argument because they are not at odds with one another.
Correct. We come with an optimum on balance between specialisation and flexibility. Our bodies are developed enough to perform a couple of impressive tasks despite the fact that we are not the fastest, strongest or most robust species on earth. We reached the optimum for pretty much every physical ability out there, and managed not to drift into any overspecialisation at all. As a result, the human evolution almost completely "switched" from 'physical' to 'informational' like 35000 years ago.

It is the human knowledge which is currently under heavy development, and not the body. For instance, one idea is that the last time when one human alone could hold ALL the knowledge of all mankind was circa 200 years ago. Today this not possible any more.

But if you'd switch a stone age baby (upper palaeolithic) with a 21st century one, it is assumed that neither of them would behave "conspicuous".

Quote:
And if you don't believe me, ask yourself how many times you've successfully removed a screw with a butter knife, or used a rock to drive in a tent-peg.
What really breaks it down to the brain+hands combo again. Pre-human species like the Australopithecines supposedly had brains big enough to have the capacity to come up with a lot of ideas. However, their hands lacked "proper" development and that had a deciding impact on the fine motor skills, making even easy tasks like operating a screwdriver impossible for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Besides, what other species on the face of planet Earth has the capability to end all life on the planet at the push of the proverbial button?
We surely do not have that capability. We're far away from it.

But then again, it's all about the design. No doubt, donkeys intuitionally know how to operate a carrot button.


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Old 05-13-2008, 01:44 PM   #44
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^Funny, you're anti-nuke Ray, yet you don't think that a global thermonuclear war would basically effectively destroy all or most life on the planet? (mind you, we're talking ability here, not whetther or not that's ever likely to pass)


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Old 05-13-2008, 02:46 PM   #45
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I seem to recall that cockroaches are projected to be able to live through such a thing.



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Old 05-13-2008, 04:30 PM   #46
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Scorpions and ants as well. Then we have life being separated from the rest of the world by kilometres of water in between. Right beside all those creepy, slimy creatures living in caves or who knows where.

Alpha and beta radiation can be practically blocked by a sheet of paper. Gamma radiation is a bit more invasive, but a hundred metres of water or rock would basically block any direct radiation from getting anywhere.

Fallout and following contamination will hardly reach caves or deeper regions of the oceans.

Also we have already found several habitats (mostly undersea) that are completely independent from the sun light.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
^Funny, you're anti-nuke Ray, yet you don't think that a global thermonuclear war would basically effectively destroy all or most life on the planet?
ACH!! And I thought I'm anti-nuke simply because it wastes tax money, is immoral, and gives a bad taint, especially when dropped over a city, not because it might destroy all life when dropped in hundreds.


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Old 05-13-2008, 04:40 PM   #47
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And banana flies, dozends of insects and countless bacteria. To show just how resistant some creatures are, a human can take 5 before dying, a banana fly can take 200.......


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:45 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
The best kind of government is frankly a Benevolent Dictatorship. The only problem is the scarcity of those.
And what is a benevolent dictatorship? And benevolent to whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Because soem people need a government that keeps them from havign certain problems, for their own good. However, before anything that is ever put in place, a very specific and detailed civil rights bill needs to be put in place- one that can only be put in place once major issues are finally resolved entirely, such as abortion, gay marriage, religion, science, and such.
I wasn't aware government could sttle those things for good.

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Rebellions can be quelled if the majority of humanity is against that group's goals. It would simply be a matter of educating every next generation to beleive valuable life rules/lessons, philosophies and science. And in such a way that it would not be 'brainwashing'.
But that's exactly brainwashing. Who determines what are the "valuables" sciences on a dictatorship? The government. Last I heard, they're still made of humans.

And, it doesn't matter what justification you have to rule: Divine right, votes, war... there'll always be a resistance where there's opression.


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Old 05-13-2008, 08:09 PM   #49
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Well, that's part of the problem, Ctrl. Benevolence to some is malevolence to others.

Also, Ray, with the present nuclear stockpile, most human life would be snuffed out within seconds. The subsequent Nuclear Winter would freeze the Earth, killing everything else in a long, slow, mournful death.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:38 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Well, that's part of the problem, Ctrl. Benevolence to some is malevolence to others.
which is why democracy was invented, so people can control the level of malevolence in their government.

Quote:
Also, Ray, with the present nuclear stockpile, most human life would be snuffed out within seconds. The subsequent Nuclear Winter would freeze the Earth, killing everything else in a long, slow, mournful death.
If every missile was launched and a significant amount of land was hit, yeah, probably. Though enough life in various places would survive, such as the creatures at extreme depths in the ocean.


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Old 05-14-2008, 09:41 AM   #51
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Actually, I'm pretty sure Cleisthenes invented democracy in order to get one up on the Pisistratids.



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Old 05-14-2008, 01:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Besides, what other species on the face of planet Earth has the capability to end all life on the planet at the push of the proverbial button?
We surely do not have that capability. We're far away from it.
Quote:
ACH!! And I thought I'm anti-nuke simply because it wastes tax money, is immoral, and gives a bad taint, especially when dropped over a city, not because it might destroy all life when dropped in hundreds.
This is why I posed that question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DI
I seem to recall that cockroaches are projected to be able to live through such a thing.
Why I was careful not to say all.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:33 AM   #53
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So, I'm against the use of nuclear weapons, and at the same time I say mankind is not able to end all life on this planet at the push of the proverbial button. I'm not sure why that is so irritating for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Also, Ray, with the present nuclear stockpile, most human life would be snuffed out within seconds. The subsequent Nuclear Winter would freeze the Earth, killing everything else in a long, slow, mournful death.
Sure, overkill use of nuclear bombs would shorten the food chain quite a bit, and probably directly or indirectly causes almost all plants, mammals, birds, reptiles and a large number of fishes to cease their existence. Insects and micro-organisms will be most probably the least effected.

Also, life has gone through some incredibly cold/heat periods on Earth already, so I don't really think a nuclear winter would be too much of an issue, although it will add to the body count, yes, just like the nuclear summer that will follow inevitably.

But obviously some creatures always manage to survive, just like some did after the big impacts/eruptions causing the same nuclear winters and summers. So nothing new here as well.

The observed resistance against radioactivity of some species is pretty easy to explain, since early Earth had a different atmosphere, which was much less protective against high-energetic cosmic radiation, which is basically the big brother of what our nukes produce.


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Old 05-15-2008, 07:40 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Sure, overkill use of nuclear bombs would shorten the food chain quite a bit, and probably directly or indirectly causes almost all plants, mammals, birds, reptiles and a large number of fishes to cease their existence. Insects and micro-organisms will be most probably the least effected..... <snip>
Aye life does usually find away, though I'd of thought you'd be talking 90-95% of Animals initially being killed by a Nuclear winter. And obviously because of radioactivity and mutation, the higher up the food chain you are the more 'easily' your body will be effected by the radiation.



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Old 05-15-2008, 08:51 AM   #55
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When we talk about a scenario where hundreds or thousands of nuclear weapons are fired, we have to differ whether the detonations take place evenly distributed or concentrated somewhere like ten there, twenty there etc.

A nuclear winter takes place mostly because of the smoke of fires, dust and vaporised matter that's blown into the air blocking off the sun causing a significant drop of temperature on Earth.

So, even if we drop like 1000 nukes over the ocean, the chances for a nuclear winter to occur are dropping near zero, though we'd have much radioactive rain/fallout in the following time, causing less but still many deaths.

If we drop them equally all over all the continents, surely almost nothing will die due to a nuclear winter as well. Everything that's not "under a rock" will be burned at several thousand degrees, disrupted, or dies because of the intense radiation. The nuclear winter will occur, but its death toll will be only "minimal".

If we drop 1000 bombs over South America, most deaths will be due to the nuclear winter caused by huge fires of the burning rain forest. However, it should cause less deaths than the above scenario. Also, we really would not need 1000 a-bombs for that, just "some" gas and matches, and somebody willing to light up a whole continent.


However, each of these scenarios means that the "higher up the food chain" will be significantly closer to its lower end.



Last edited by Ray Jones; 05-15-2008 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:36 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
So, I'm against the use of nuclear weapons, and at the same time I say mankind is not able to end all life on this planet at the push of the proverbial button. I'm not sure why that is so irritating for you?
Don't flatter yourself. Seriously, though, I just thought it was a glaring inconsistency on your part. Even with the thousands of nukes we posses (and will no doubt be added to in the future), I'd agree that we aren't likely to kill ALL life on the planet, just a very large part of it. Maybe any human survivor's of such an "exchange" will become like the Moorlocks.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:52 PM   #57
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I particularly don't like the fact that, at any given time, some stupid power-hungry leader of soem country could cause a nuclear war and end my life due to his/her idiocy... Comedy Central tends to lighten the mood about such things for me, thankfully.
If Russia, China, and the U.S became military allies, then maybe I'd feel a bit safer. Well at least we can be glad that Germany didn't get nuclear weapons in WWI... If they had... The world would be far worse than it is today.

When you talk about Humans being flawed/flawless, count your blessings. We're not that flawed...


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Old 05-15-2008, 04:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Seriously, though, I just thought it was a glaring inconsistency on your part.
Hee, and it seems I splendidly managed to worm out of that one, eh!

(yeah you wish I'd really say that)


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Old 05-15-2008, 05:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
Hee, and it seems I splendidly managed to worm out of that one, eh!

(yeah you wish I'd really say that)

Not so fast there, hoss. Was referring to your statement about us (humans) being "far away from it". The "push the button" scenario is one that would result in the exchange of thousands of such weapons (much greater in yield than the firecrackers dropped on Japan, which had you apopletic when challenged on the degreee of damage they caused). So, using your previous logic about how damaging even a low yield weapon is to the environment and the life in general, it's a stretch for you to conclude that we're "far away from it". Nice try, though.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:09 AM   #60
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I think now you're interpreting too much into that while discarding the initial context which my apoplectic argumentation about the damage was addressing - the idea that a conventional solution would have caused more deaths than the one that took place.


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Old 05-16-2008, 04:25 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones
I think now you're interpreting too much into that while discarding the initial context which my apoplectic argumentation about the damage was addressing - the idea that a conventional solution would have caused more deaths than the one that took place.
Naw. It spiraled beyond that in that thread. However, just so there is no further misunderstanding, never said you thought ALL life would be annihilated by a massive thermonuclear exchange, just found your contention that we were "far away from it" (the ability to destroy life on the planet) to be inconsistent with your previous postion about the destructive nature of nukes in general. Ce le vie.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:09 AM   #62
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But we *are* far away from it despite the destructive nature of nukes.

For instance, the explosion of Chicxulub impact from 65 million years ago which supposedly killed "only" 90% of all species was about 2 million times more powerful than the explosion of the most powerful fusion-bomb man has ever created (its fireball was 9 km in diameter).

2 million times.

When we take all active-and-ready-to-blow nuclear warheads of today we're pretty much at 20,000 (we had a maximum of about 70,000 in the eighties), let alone the fact these are not all 50MT Tsar-type bombs (which was built and detonated only once) and have only up to 1/25th of that power (as a very, very positive average, most are in fact at 1/50th and below).

You're not gonna try to tell me 20,000 "weak" a-bombs, even if detonated at once on one spot, would have the same effect as a ten kilometre asteroid multiplying these powers by at least the factor 2,500. Heck, even if we take all nuclear bombs that have ever been built (roughly 150,000), and assume it were all Tsar-type bombs, our penis still lacks size by the factor 10 at least.

If that is not butt raping our nuclear powers, I don't know what it is.


That is why I say we are far away from destroying all life by the push of the proverbial button, without feeling any contradiction to my previous statements about the dangers and effects of nuclear weapons.


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Old 05-16-2008, 11:36 AM   #63
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A nuclear exchange would not be limited to a single point on the Earth's surface and would invariably target cities and other points of interest on land, which would put out the most radioactive dust, unlike the crater you've spoken of. It's entirely possible to kill everything off if we wanted to-- although I agree such a scenario is extremely unlikely (since I don't think that anyone using nukes will want to blanket the WHOLE world with them).


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Old 05-16-2008, 03:26 PM   #64
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Of course, no one would drop all his bombs over one spot. I just made a comparison.


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