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Old 06-02-2001, 04:34 AM   #1
UnForGiven
 
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Question Lightsabre duals, improved glyph system

One of the main reasons Obiwan was cancelled for pc release was the fact that they couldn't get(the)lightsabre(duals)right. They ended up finding the glyph system(the way lightsabres were going to be controlled)to be more of an annoyance than a benifit. This makes me doubt whether they can get a good lightsabre sytem right this time round. If they couldn't get it right in ObiWan, does this mean that they won't be able to get it right for JK2?

The glyph system worked as follows. You would hold down the second mouse button(or other specified key/button)and the direction you moved the mouse would determine the type of lightsabre swing. While the idea of givig a vast variety of moves and combo's is good, it may not be possible. The glyph system just wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. The idea had potential, but they just found it too hard to implement properly.

I hope that they can figure a system, maybe an improvement of the glyph system, to use in regards to lightsabre battles. A system that gives a huge variety of moves and combo's and a good blocking system. I want it to be relatively easy to pick up, but difficult to master. Once mastered, I want it to produce some very technical, amazing and lengthy battles. What I really want is it to be at least half as good as what it looks like in the movies.

Do you think this will be possible? Or do you think we are doomed to a B-grade system with only a few moves at our disposel?


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Old 06-02-2001, 04:45 AM   #2
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well... JK2's development is handled by raven software... which in turn have a lot of FPS/action based games in its belt.

one of their products is HERETIC II, which is one of their milestones and excellent execution of a 3rd person shooter than that girl with the big boobs and all.

*cough* tomb raider *cough*

anyway... heretic II used a system where it isnt dependent much that dependent like the glyph system on the mouse/mouse button on the swings... well you have to combine keypresses (WSAD + alt keys) and other combinations to move the character like jumping and rolling left aside from the regular FPS movement. they could apply the same type of concept for sabre swings and blocks. remember it still early in development... we could see a lot in the few months!

i've seen a post somewhere in the other forums that he listed 80+ key combinations that are ergonomic and really could be useful for sabre swinging.

all i know is... raven software wouldnt let us down with this game!

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: runab0ut ]


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Old 06-02-2001, 04:58 AM   #3
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Well I hope you're right. I just saw the 15 sec E3 clip. He appeared to use about 5 or so different moves, but he repeated a few a couple of times. It appears that autoblocking might be in too. None of the moves he performed looked all that impressive though, but you're right, they have lots of time to work on it.

I hope flipping is in the game. In TPM, Obiwan flips over Mauls head a few times with his sabre kind of sticking out. Maul blocks these flip attacks though.

Hope they get it right..


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Old 06-02-2001, 08:42 AM   #4
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really? i thought i saw about 8 or 9 different moves..... hrmmmmmm


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Old 06-02-2001, 10:22 AM   #5
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Well, in the way of lightsaber moves, I want to have the thing I heard about from Heretic II, the assigning a combo to a key thingy...plus at least a dozen moves, and quick kicks like Oni, not those things that take 30 sec(long time in the middle of a game!) and mabe some rolls, flips, and other acrobatic moves.

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Old 06-02-2001, 10:48 AM   #6
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Whether the Glyph system worked or not is something we can only speculate. There was never any official announcement that actually said that LAs problem with the game (Obi Wan) had to do with the Glyph system.
Of course we all had our concerns about whether it would actually work or not...
My thoughts about it were always torn though because of it being a completely new and interesting idea and beacause I wanted OBW to be a game that would inspire other developers to follow its footsteps and not to be a game inspired completely by others...


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Old 06-02-2001, 11:42 AM   #7
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In the SW Universe, there are sooo many planets and objects, I think Yavin and its moon were not so important for the Cartographers, they only need to identify each object. Because of that they give the moons numbers instead of inventing completley new names .
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Old 06-02-2001, 12:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
There was never any official announcement that actually said that LAs problem with the game (Obi Wan) had to do with the Glyph system
Untrue, there was. They specifically said that they were finding the glyph system to be an annoyance. If you think about it, it does sound like it would be strange to control. There was also a delay between when you performed the action with the mouse and when it would actually demonstrate the move on-screen. It was a small delay of course, but that was probably another reason why the glyph system just didn't work out.

As for the moves in the demo, I think some of those "moves" that you were reffering to were actually blocks. I didn't include blocks in my estimation.

Speaking of blocking, autobloacking is a bad idea IMO. When you watch TPM, you truly realise how important blocking is. It is just as valuable as attacking. But if JK2 implements autoblocking, where's the skill in that? Sure, we might have a bunch of offensive moves at our disposle, ones that WE have to perform, but what about defensive moves? Will we just have to rely on the pc to do that for us?

I don't think that is the best route to go. But on the other hand, I don't know of a better way for it to be done.

Hope they get it right..


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Old 06-02-2001, 01:07 PM   #9
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I think auto blocking should be included, the only reason i didnt like it that much in JK was because it never seemed to block that many blaster shots. It will work as long as you dont stand there holding a button blocking some 58 move combo.

All in moderation.

About OB1, basically, IMO they built this glyph thing up soo much they couldnt then back down saying, 'actually on second thoughts this isn't really going to work.' That may not be the only reason but I'd say it was a large part..

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Old 06-02-2001, 01:09 PM   #10
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I think what will end up being the major difference between obiwan and jkII in terms of saber fighting is that obiwan has realtime controll over the saber (via the second analogue) and jkII will most likely have to have predesignated saber moves, be it combinations or whatever. The big question is whether the Raven team can hurdle making a realtime lightsaber.


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Old 06-02-2001, 01:15 PM   #11
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Wardz, you basically hit the nail on the head. That's why they are releasing it for console, because the glyph system will no longer be an issue with a console. You can't implement the glyph system with a console, as they use gamepads.

They couldn't produce a B-grade sabre system for the fans as they had already put alot of hype into the glyph system, so it was in their best interests to scrap the game for the pc and release for X-box only.

This is not the only reason(probably)but it is a main reason. I mean, if you can't get the lightsabre system right in a game that revolves around a lightsabre-using Jedi, what good is the game? Not much good for alot of the SW gaming fans.

AAAnyway..


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Old 06-02-2001, 01:49 PM   #12
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RAVEN RULE.....just thought id mention it!


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Old 06-02-2001, 01:55 PM   #13
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Why thankyou UnForGiven

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Old 06-02-2001, 05:01 PM   #14
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runab0ut...

Quote:
i've seen a post somewhere in the other forums that he listed 80+ key combinations that are ergonomic and really could be useful for sabre swinging.
Hehe, I guess that was probably me, but it was 50+. Anyway, I wasn't really suggesting they implemented that many saber moves - I was just highlighting the fact that they were possible using up to 3 key presses in combination with a primary or secondary fire button (probably on the mouse).

If they could incorporate, say, 20 different moves, I think it would probably be adequate.

What I would say is that I'm not sure I like the idea of autoblocking. I had a couple of problems with it in JK, particularly during lightsaber duels - I'd just be about to make a slice, and it would go into autoblock mode instead...grrrr...

I would prefer manual blocking - in the same vein as Rune and Severance: Blade of Darkness. It puts you in total control, and you have to really time your swings, which makes the duels better, and sometimes longer.

UnForGiven...from the feedback I have read in the previews, flipping will be in. Also, as runab0ut said, Raven produced Heretic II, which I think was one of the best 3rd person games ever made. The combo-moves were based on direction keys with the fire key, and you could do somersaults, tumble backwards, roll in a crouch (including strafe rolls), jump forward and use a wall to do a backward somersault... In short, if they could just implement those moves in Jedi Outcast, it will be a very good game. I have a feeling that it will be even better, though.
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Old 06-02-2001, 05:15 PM   #15
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Unless Raven can find a practical way to implement blocking controls, I'm sure auto-blocking will be in place. Blocking doesn't have to have a set control assigned to it. If the blocking is based on how you are standing and what angle the blasts are coming from, that could probably make it decent enough. You'd still have to have practice at blocking; thereforce, auto-blocking wouldn't take all the fun out of it.

Who knows though, maby Raven will come up with something totally new.
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Old 06-02-2001, 05:19 PM   #16
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Well, if the glyph system is implemented, I'm binding it to the middle mouse button. Then again, I have one of those saitek gm2 mice. They have a POV hat on the side. I hope maybe I can use that for the saber and the action pad for the normal movements.


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Old 06-02-2001, 06:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroXcape:
<STRONG>Unless Raven can find a practical way to implement blocking controls, I'm sure auto-blocking will be in place. Blocking doesn't have to have a set control assigned to it. If the blocking is based on how you are standing and what angle the blasts are coming from, that could probably make it decent enough. You'd still have to have practice at blocking; thereforce, auto-blocking wouldn't take all the fun out of it.

Who knows though, maby Raven will come up with something totally new.</STRONG>
Well, manual blocking could be as simple as pointing with the mouse and using a secondary fire key.

At least it would give you a choice about whether or not to block, because blocking when you don't want to becomes a pain. For example, you get in close to some Tuskens, you're taking damage from all the blasts anyway, you go to swing to take two out in one go - and you autoblock.

That was one of the things that bugged me in JK. I wouldn't mind if they just had a toggle key to turn autoblocking on and off within the game. You know, hold down a button, and it autoblocks, release the button, and you can attack. Even that would be more intuitive, and be really simple to use.

I'm not asking for anything complicated.
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Old 06-03-2001, 12:27 AM   #18
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Actually I think Simon Jeffery said that OW was not fun to play
Probably because of the way the glyph worked

The saber should work as StormHammer proposes, and for the blocking it could be that you have to press a key or just the attack button in the exact moment you are going to be hit, and the succes of the block could also depened on the angle you have with the shot
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Old 06-03-2001, 12:34 AM   #19
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How about this?

When you click secondary fire, you just swing. When you hold down secondary fire, you auto-block. That way you can never attack and block at the same time.


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Old 06-03-2001, 12:46 AM   #20
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Maybe
We should run polls in this forums, so Raven guys can see easier what we want every aspect of the game to be like

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]
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Old 06-03-2001, 01:29 AM   #21
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Go find yourselves a bargain basement copy of Raven's Heretic 2 ($10) get patched to Version 1.06 (lots more moves), then find some experienced players online. You will witness all the things you wish for JK2. It is fast, easy to learn, takes a lot of time to master, very acrobatic, great combos, great auto-block system, very dynamic, capable enough to express your personal fighting style, and with Quake2 aliases one can to invent custom combos. H2 is a medieval version of JK. I Have played most melee games for the PC and still none compare to the H2's combat system. If Raven develops beyond this model we should all be very happy Jedi. If you want a lesson I'll fire up a server for some 1on1 Blade Dueling (just need to dust off that old copy of H2 and reinstall).
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Old 06-03-2001, 01:49 AM   #22
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Well my personal hope for the controls is something along the lines of the origional JK. I had no trouble controlling the saber and it was very quick to learn. But I would like to drop autoblock and have a block button. Afterall--blocking shouldn't be that difficult for a Jedi to do. Of course, that could make multiplayer more interesting if you can't be damaged unless you aren't blocking (IE attacking or trying to use another force power or something).

A lot of the problems with JK's system online came from the netcode rather than problems with the actual idea. But I'd like to have something where the best move doesn't consist of running up and pressing the most powerful swing attack and getting out of the way as quickly as possible after you start the move. Something where you have a little more face to face confrontation would be nice.
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Old 06-03-2001, 06:36 AM   #23
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When it comes to H2 I think that the way you controled your character was very blocky and the animations were not that good.
H2 was IMO very influenced by JK but I'd take JK any time even with the older graphics and more simple control.
I think that Raven should look up to games like Oni or Blade of Darkness when it comes to saber duels and not Rune or H2.

As for blocking, it would better be manual and a lot of people sugested some great ideas as to how this could be acomplished. A button that when pressed would start autoblocking and when released whould stop it (like in OBW) would be IMO better.


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Old 06-03-2001, 10:54 AM   #24
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...and move the mouse to a direction where you want to block an incoming attack....
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Old 06-03-2001, 12:18 PM   #25
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I wonder if a dual analog controller would work good with this glyph system....?


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Old 06-03-2001, 02:12 PM   #26
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I like the idea of a toggle to enable or disable autoblocking at the touch of a button.

In Jedi Knight/MotS, autoblocking came in pretty handy when under attack from blaster, pistol, crossbow, or repeater fire.


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Old 06-03-2001, 03:00 PM   #27
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FORGET THE GLYPH SYSTEM! LEC didn't like it so just forget it ever existed, it confuses the matter considerably and we don't need it...


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Old 06-03-2001, 03:28 PM   #28
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It wasn't LEC's glyph system. It was Stephen Shaw's. He designed it and it was his. They dropped Shaw to a diff 'project' as they called it, and dropped the glyph system because they didn't have Shaw for it. Shaw was also the project leader on Obi-Wan. And that's not how the Glyph System worked. You had an 'attack button'. And you would have your lightsaber out, hold down the attack button, and move your mouse (for example) straight up. That would give you a jab like attack (see the obi-wan with the yellowish saber below. He looks as if he is about to jab, given the stance he is in and the position of his saber). If you pulled back on it, you would spin around and block, or you would yank your saber over your back to block. Also, if you pushed your mouse forward, you could get a sweeping up motion (see the obi-wan with the green saber below). Like in this shot:


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Old 06-03-2001, 03:35 PM   #29
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I know it was shaw who made it, but my point is that the glyph system was (prolly) the main reason OB1 was canned, therefore this talk about using the mouse for blocking just seems a little unnecessary as it is like the glyph system. Its going round in circles and IMO makes things more confusing...


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Old 06-03-2001, 05:46 PM   #30
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I think we can do without autoblocking, if there is a manual blocking system, ie. you press and hold a button to block, it would be much better. Of course this would, IMO, have to be based on angle and timing and thus there would be a slight learning curve which is a good thing. Keeps things more interesting!

As others have said auto got in your way in JK and made it less realistic, its more fun if you have to learn to block as opposed to a CPU doing it mindlessly for you( with bad timing to boot!).


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Old 06-11-2001, 11:54 AM   #31
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LS thread 2


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