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Old 06-14-2008, 04:18 PM   #81
EnderWiggin
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Just looked at End of the Harvest on IMDb and cannot imagine how a work of fiction is going to help the discussion. Rather than presume to have me waste an hour of my life, why don't you summarize the parts that you feel would be enlightening?

Come on, Achilles. It's only a 53 minute waste.

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Old 06-14-2008, 04:36 PM   #82
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Come on, Achilles. It's only a 53 minute waste.
I'll spend 5 minutes here or 5 minutes there taking on apologist arguments than have been refuted a thousand times, but some film student's senior project is asking for too much.
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:56 PM   #83
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First, let's point out that none of these are argument for god. At best they are arguments for something supernatural, but no part of this is anywhere close to be an actual argument for the judeo-christian god.
But there is something then...It's God for me and for the christian, it's Allah for the muslim, etc...

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I will be returning to this point as tick through each part of this, so I wanted to lay the groundwork first. Okay:
The problem with first causes is that they lead to infinite regression. If Y created Z, then what created Y? Must have been X. Well what created X then? W?

Unfortunately for the purposes of my analogy we can eventually determine that A was the first cause, but for the purposes of the actual logic, there is no end. Hence the "infinite" in "infinite regression".
God is the alfa and the omega.

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However, our brain, being what it is has a very difficult time accepting this. Conflicting logic says, "well the whole thing had to have started somewhere!!!". And that's fine. Let's accept that yes, it did indeed all have to start somewhere.

But why is that answer "god"? Why isn't it "satan"? Or the titans, or the flying spaghetti monster, or magic fairiers with magic fairy dust? What evidence do any of us have for one of these fantastic ideas over any of the others? How could we possibly verify them?
Again, there is something. And that is against atheism, for them there's nothing.

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Most importantly, how can we rule out a perfectly logic explanation that can be verified by science and requires no superstitious supernatualism at all? Decades of research into quantum physics brings us closer and closer to such an explanation. At some point in the future we'll be smart enough to be able to build the equipment necessary to test our predictions. At that point, there will be a few less gaps for god to hide in.
We aren't there yet to see what that explanation will be. Maybe the explanation it's God itself...


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The appearance of design is not evidence of design. Furthermore, even if it were considered evidence of design, it tells us nothing about the designer.

The designer could be god, satan, the flying spaghetti monster, zeus, apollo, thor, invisible pink unicorns or anything else we care to dream up.

So not only do we not have any supportable argument for design, we have no supportable argument for the identity of the alleged designer. Unfortunately for the speaker, we have more than 150 years of scientific research that shows that not only is a designer not necessary, a designer is highly improbable at worst and highly incompitent at best.
However, there's a possibility that there's is a designer, and I beleive that it exists.

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At this point I feel confident that I do not need to repeat that even if we were to accept that morality required an external source, that we would not be able to determine what that source is.

Also similar to the examples above is that scientific research continues to offer up natural explanations that make supernatural hypothesis unnecessary (recent research with mirror neurons, etc). Even if that were not the case, we have centuries of moral philosophy that are capable of showing that we can discover morality on our own, if it took the science a long time to be able to figure out how we do it.
I would like to see that.

My time is valuable to me also, so I will answer to you whan I have more time left.

This is just my opinion, I hope everyone respect that, as I respect yours.
Thanks.



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Old 06-14-2008, 06:01 PM   #84
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God is the alfa and the omega.
Alpha.

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Again, there is something. And that is against atheism, for them there's nothing.
Unless that something has a natural explanation. Because then it's just nature. Which in terms of this argument, is nothing.

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This is just my opinion, I hope everyone respect that, as I respect yours.
Thanks.
I do. Thank you as well.

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Old 06-14-2008, 06:14 PM   #85
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But there is something then...It's God for me and for the christian, it's Allah for the muslim, etc...
Without evidence we have no reason to believe that this is true. That doesn't mean that we can rule it out, but it also means that there is no wisdom in accepting it as true. Compound that by the fact that you are taking a guess at which of these imaginary figures is the one you're "supposed" to be following.

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God is the alfa and the omega.
You are aware that because some guy wrote that down on a page, that doesn't make it true, correct?

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Again, there is something.
But you can't say what that something is. Saying that it is god is 1) undefendable and 2) doesn't tell us anything useful about our universe. I could say that its the flying spaghetti monster and we would both have to accept that we're just guessing.

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We aren't there yet to see what that explanation will be. Maybe the explanation it's God itself...
Just as it could be invisible pink unicorns. What is your point?

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However, there's a possibility that there's is a designer, and I beleive that it exists.
The odds of there being a designer are orders of magnitude more unlikely than natural explanations that render such a hypothesis unnecessary.

I acknowledge that you are welcome to believe whatever you wish, but belief does not make something true or useful.

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I would like to see that.
Which?

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My time is valuable to me also, so I will answer to you whan I have more time left.
Fair enough. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

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This is just my opinion, I hope everyone respect that, as I respect yours.
If you have argument worth respecting, then I will be happy to respect them.

Take care.

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Which in terms of this argument, is nothing.
Or everything
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:50 PM   #86
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Or everything


I guess that's true.



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Old 06-15-2008, 10:06 AM   #87
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just a quick post:

When you talk of God, wht's God for you?



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Old 06-15-2008, 01:34 PM   #88
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A fictional cultural icon.
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Old 06-15-2008, 02:55 PM   #89
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When you talk of God, wht's God for you?
An entity created by the human mind that gives comfort, purpose and a meaning in life for those who choose to believe in it.

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Old 06-15-2008, 06:33 PM   #90
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I'll spend 5 minutes here or 5 minutes there taking on apologist arguments than have been refuted a thousand times, but some film student's senior project is asking for too much.
This wasn't a senior project, it's just an old movie...I apologized for being rude, if you keep this up I'm going to apologize again for apologizing in the first place, I red all of the crap that you gave me, why don't you watch the movie


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:51 PM   #91
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You didn't read any of it and I think we both know that.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:57 PM   #92
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I read it, I know that, you don't...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:59 PM   #93
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thats all bull****!
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:00 PM   #94
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Thank you, I'd say the same except that I'm a christian and I don't cuss


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:50 PM   #95
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thats all bull****!
Any reasons why that is what you say it is? It all boils down to your opinion, people, and, barring some extraordinary change of heart, it's not going to be changed (easily).

As for God? I regard (him) as an icon created by cultures, spread widely around the world. Although good has been done in (his) name, the bad seems to outweigh it (i.e., Crusades).
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:15 PM   #96
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Any reasons why that is what you say it is?
Because the Bible says so



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Old 06-15-2008, 11:18 PM   #97
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I read it, I know that, you don't...
You read my post, read the contents of that page, drafted your response and posted it all within 5 minutes? How gullible do you think we are? Please try again.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:22 PM   #98
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I am a really fast reader, don't believe if you want but I know the truth, I read the articles...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:27 PM   #99
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I am a really fast reader, don't believe if you want but I know the truth, I read the articles...
Being a fast reader is not always a good thing: if you rush through the articles, you're not giving yourself enough time to analyze the text.



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Old 06-15-2008, 11:28 PM   #100
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All that tells me is that you weren't reading for comprehension. Of course, I could already determine this from your subsequent responses, which means that while you may have taken the time to read the words on the screen, you didn't bother to devote any time to applying what they meant to your thinking. In other words, you didn't really read them at all.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:31 PM   #101
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I red them, I have a really good comprehension, my teachers used to freak out about how fast and good my comprehension is, I'm tired of this thread anyways, bye bye


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:32 PM   #102
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I red them, I have a really good comprehension, my teachers used to freak out about how fast and good my comprehension is, I'm tired of this thread anyways, bye bye
Your English teachers probably didn't freak out, however.



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Old 06-15-2008, 11:35 PM   #103
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True True mock me if you will, and actually it would be my Spelling and Vocab teachers you should know that...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:37 PM   #104
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True True mock me if you will, and actually it would be my Spelling and Vocab teachers you should know that...
That's typically covered in English classes. At the very least, I've never had a Spelling and Vocab teacher.



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Old 06-16-2008, 01:48 AM   #105
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True True mock me if you will, and actually it would be my Spelling and Vocab teachers you should know that...
Are you a troll?



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Old 06-16-2008, 02:29 AM   #106
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Being agnostic and stuff, I guess I'd have to take a neutral stance on this situation... Anyway, you guys can't really touch each other. If a person believes on faith, then you can't really touch them or truly affect them. Some may call this stubborn or ignorant of the 'truth' (in whatever way one sees it) - but the faithful pride themselves on being able to claim belief in a thing that is illogical; to some, and hard to believe.

So essentially, the only outcome for this thread will probably be all of the non believers gathering together in one corner, grunting comments like "How idiotic. - He believes in God? - Religious hick. - Clutch that Bible tight, it'll make you feel better!"
Then the believers gathering together in the other corner, sharing thoughts like, "What barbarians! - These angry people are truly lost. - Doesn't he understand? - I'll have the last laugh!"

So yeah, even though there are no spamming of exclamation points and rants written out in CAPS; highlighted in red, too. Even with proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation in all of our statements, this is nothing more than a fight (a bloody brawl is more like it) on the internet. ... and we all know how those end... Just like the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded.

But by all means, continue. It's great reading both points, I'm using it as a learning opportunity. Looking at both sides, how they rationalize and shoot down (or attempt to) each other's points, is a great thing to watch. It really reveals the minds of people, exposes them, it's interesting. Two ideologies combating each other is entertaining food for thought.

But it's still sad seeing anyone fight... tearing us in two... Can't we all just get along?


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Old 06-16-2008, 03:08 AM   #107
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But it's still sad seeing anyone fight... tearing us in two... Can't we all just get along?
I'll only get along if I get to be the big spoon.



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Old 06-16-2008, 03:10 AM   #108
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So essentially, the only outcome for this thread will probably be all of the non believers gathering together in one corner, grunting comments like "How idiotic. - He believes in God? - Religious hick. - Clutch that Bible tight, it'll make you feel better!"
Then the believers gathering together in the other corner, sharing thoughts like, "What barbarians! - These angry people are truly lost. - Doesn't he understand? - I'll have the last laugh!"
At the end of the day, that might be the case. But wouldn't it be awesome if someone actually learned something though?

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So yeah, even though there are no spamming of exclamation points and rants written out in CAPS; highlighted in red, too. Even with proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation in all of our statements, this is nothing more than a fight (a bloody brawl is more like it) on the internet. ... and we all know how those end... Just like the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded.
How is a discussion on the internet different from one in person? If two people discussing opposing viewpoints are retarded for doing so here, then they are retarded for doing so anywhere. And if our options are groupthink and retardation, I think I'll take my chances with retardation

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But by all means, continue. It's great reading both points, I'm using it as a learning opportunity. Looking at both sides, how they rationalize and shoot down (or attempt to) each other's points, is a great thing to watch. It really reveals the minds of people, exposes them, it's interesting. Two ideologies combating each other is entertaining food for thought.
I would tend to agree.

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But it's still sad seeing anyone fight... tearing us in two... Can't we all just get along?
That's a nice thought and I agree that such a scenario would probably be preferable. However, I don't think that all situations can have compromised outcomes. There are certain things that most people recognize as being absolutes.

What we have here are fundamentally different views of the world. In each case, the reality (or at least the perception of reality) is that the beliefs of others have an impact on everyone. People that believe that acts of nature such as hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc are god's punishment for the sinful actions of humans have a vested interest controlling the actions of sinners. They understand that they just can't live and let live, because if their neighbor is sinful and god decides to punish that city, then their lives and the lives of their families are at risk. So these people vote for similarly minded politicians that will act to implement laws that are consistent with their values. But on the other side of the coin, we have people that see their rights and freedoms being restricted based on a belief/value system that they do not share. So the conflict, by it's very nature, is not (and I do not believe can be) live and let live. Both sides have something at stake, and their beliefs are in directly opposed to one another's.

To your point, one would think that intelligent people might be able to sit down and choose to examine the merits of each side of the argument. The problem is that there is no common language. Unfortunately, the religious argument is completely insulated from rational thought, so trying to have an intelligent conversation about the matter fails every time. In the best case scenarios you might here something like, "I know it doesn't make sense, but I choose to believe anyway". In the worst case scenarios, you'll probably hear arguments chocked full of fallacious thinking like, "You cannot prove that [insert name of preferred magic invisible sky daddy here] doesn't exist". So how in the world can we have compromise when rational thinking isn't even possible? How diametrically opposed groups hope to find middle ground when they can't even agree on a basis for examining the merits of a belief?
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:47 AM   #109
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But it's still sad seeing anyone fight... tearing us in two... Can't we all just get along?
No. That's not human nature.

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Old 06-16-2008, 08:36 AM   #110
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True True mock me if you will, and actually it would be my Spelling and Vocab teachers you should know that...
Seriously? You "red" it - I'm sure that impressed your spelling teachers.

Not sure why you say things like these.... it's like you're requesting a tongue-lashing.

_EW_



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Old 06-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #111
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People that believe that acts of nature such as hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc are god's punishment for the sinful actions of humans have a vested interest controlling the actions of sinners. They understand that they just can't live and let live, because if their neighbor is sinful and god decides to punish that city, then their lives and the lives of their families are at risk. So these people vote for similarly minded politicians that will act to implement laws that are consistent with their values.
These are not christians ideals. I'm against that type of though too, but if you think that all those people that "believe that acts of nature such as hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc are god's punishment for the sinful actions of humans have a vested interest controlling the actions of sinners" are christians, then you're wrong.



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Old 06-16-2008, 12:42 PM   #112
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These are not christians ideals.
Well, they aren't your interpretation of christian ideals anyway. That doesn't mean that a great deal of christians don't hold an opposite view that they are "christian ideals".

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I'm against that type of though too, but if you think that all those people that "believe that acts of nature such as hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc are god's punishment for the sinful actions of humans have a vested interest controlling the actions of sinners" are christians, then you're wrong.
Nope, they are 100% christian. They just cherry-pick the bible differently than you do.

I think the point you're trying to make is that these views are not representative of all christians, and I would agree. However that only a small comfort. Moderate and liberal variations of christianity still act as a buffer for this kind of thinking, and are therefore part of the problem, even if they don't realize it/agree with the more extreme viewpoints.
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Old 06-16-2008, 04:15 PM   #113
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Those views are 100% anything. There are radicals and extremists in every religion and every beleif.


Again, with the people who try and say that a god does not exist and work towards proving it. This being, fictional or not gives people faith and hope. Why would someone want to take that away from someone else?




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Old 06-16-2008, 04:41 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor View Post
Those views are 100% anything. There are radicals and extremists in every religion and every beleif.


Again, with the people who try and say that a god does not exist and work towards proving it. This being, fictional or not gives people faith and hope. Why would someone want to take that away from someone else?
I agree with you Vikinor, and with you Achilles (except the part when you say they are 100% christians).

I also understand your concern and your reasons to change those people thoughts. But I think unbelieving people that God exist is not the best way.
Maybe helping them to change their way of interpreting the Bible. What do you think?



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Old 06-16-2008, 05:51 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikinor
Those views are 100% anything. There are radicals and extremists in every religion and every beleif.
I think you may be overshooting the point. Liberal views of christianity are 100% in alignment with the parts of the bible that those christians consider relevant. Same thing goes for moderate christians, conservative christians, and fundamentalist christians. The problem is that there isn't a single objective interpretation of the bible. There cannot be as it was written by many authors with many agenda during different times and in different cultures.

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Originally Posted by Vikinor
Again, with the people who try and say that a god does not exist and work towards proving it.
How does one prove that something doesn't exist? For instance, how would you prove that invisible pink unicorns aren't real? How does this differ from being skeptical of any claims regarding invisible pink unicorn barring some sort of objective evidence?

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Originally Posted by Vikinor
This being, fictional or not gives people faith and hope.
Believing that I might win this week's lottery might also give me hope. Doesn't mean that it's true. It also doesn't mean that I wouldn't be delusional if I walked around insisting that it will happen either.

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Originally Posted by Vikinor
Why would someone want to take that away from someone else?
Because holding these beliefs has an impact on everyone. I thought you congratulated me on making that point earlier

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Originally Posted by alexrdias
I agree with you Vikinor, and with you Achilles (except the part when you say they are 100% christians).
Okay. On what basis do you disagree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
I also understand your concern and your reasons to change those people thoughts. But I think unbelieving people that God exist is not the best way.
I would say that this is like stating that helping people learn to live without alcohol isn't the best way to help them not be alcoholics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexrdias
Maybe helping them to change their way of interpreting the Bible. What do you think?
Who gets to decide which interpretation is right? If god's ways are mysterious because his nature is so far beyond our comprehension then don't you think it makes sense that we blindingly follow every "suggestion" that he makes, regardless of whether it makes sense to us or not? If god tells you to murder disobedient children and people that pick up sticks on the sabbath, don't you think it would be a good idea to do what he asks? Who are you to question whether that is moral behavior or not?
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:20 PM   #116
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Being agnostic and stuff, I guess I'd have to take a neutral stance on this situation... Anyway, you guys can't really touch each other. If a person believes on faith, then you can't really touch them or truly affect them. Some may call this stubborn or ignorant of the 'truth' (in whatever way one sees it) - but the faithful pride themselves on being able to claim belief in a thing that is illogical; to some, and hard to believe.

So essentially, the only outcome for this thread will probably be all of the non believers gathering together in one corner, grunting comments like "How idiotic. - He believes in God? - Religious hick. - Clutch that Bible tight, it'll make you feel better!"
Then the believers gathering together in the other corner, sharing thoughts like, "What barbarians! - These angry people are truly lost. - Doesn't he understand? - I'll have the last laugh!"

So yeah, even though there are no spamming of exclamation points and rants written out in CAPS; highlighted in red, too. Even with proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation in all of our statements, this is nothing more than a fight (a bloody brawl is more like it) on the internet. ... and we all know how those end... Just like the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded.

But by all means, continue. It's great reading both points, I'm using it as a learning opportunity. Looking at both sides, how they rationalize and shoot down (or attempt to) each other's points, is a great thing to watch. It really reveals the minds of people, exposes them, it's interesting. Two ideologies combating each other is entertaining food for thought.

But it's still sad seeing anyone fight... tearing us in two... Can't we all just get along?
thank you for putting it in that err, colorful way, I do agree.


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:22 PM   #117
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I would say that this is like stating that helping people learn to live without alcohol isn't the best way to help them not be alcoholics.
Yet weaning them off of it is both less painful and more effective.

_EW_

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Old 06-16-2008, 08:32 PM   #118
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Yet weaning them off of it is both less painful and more effective.
You're taking the analogy too far.

It's been my experience that people don't have a 5-year plan for adopting rational thinking. Truth tends to come in epiphanies. There is a certain percentage of people with whom I converse that I know I'll never get through to. However, if my dialog with them is "overheard" by someone else and what I say has value for them, then I'm still having some effect.

EDIT: EW, I think this video may make some of my points better than I have.

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Old 06-17-2008, 06:02 AM   #119
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In what do you believe anyway? I mean, who/what created the universe and all?



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Old 06-17-2008, 10:28 AM   #120
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In what do you believe anyway? I mean, who/what created the universe and all?
Did you not pick up on the fact that he's an atheist who believes in evolution...?

@Achilles

Thank you for the link - It was very interesting.
A couple of things:
Firstly, I agree with the idea that he described - God caused the big bang and then evolution and such followed. So some of this was lost on me because I'm also sad for anyone who actually feels that Earth is 4000 years old.

I know it's fiction, but that thought reminds me of this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vtNdYsoool8 (At least it's based on facts.)

Second of all, I thusly know that the Holy Bible can't be completely correct. But the errors in words written by humans (with human biases and perceptions) about something divine do not convince me that God Himself can not exist.

_EW_



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Last edited by EnderWiggin; 06-17-2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason: I don't have a spell checker on my laptop :(
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