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Old 10-24-2007, 02:37 PM   #121
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Except that Sidious made it at least look like he was begging for his life ('please don't kill me!' or something like that) so that counts as surrending to me (as far as it looked to Anakin and Mace), so I'm afraid Mace was about to commit murder (of an evil Sith Lord mabye but murder none the less).

What was more interesting to me about Sidious mapiulations was how he made the situation parallel the situation with Anakin's earlier killing of Dooku where just after Anakin decapitates Dooku he says 'I shouldn't have done that, it's not the Jedi way,' where Palpy/Sidious assures him it was the right thing to do because Dooku was to dangerous to be left alive, and then when Mace is about to kill Sidious Anakin again says something like, 'you can't kill him, it isn't the Jedi way,' and Mace responds something along the lines of, 'he's to dangerous to be left alive,' and in doing that destroyed Anakin's last thread of faith in the truth of the Jedi code as being right and any better than the Sith that had been holding Anakin back from coming to Sidious's aid in the Mace/Sidious battle. After that he believed Sidious's lies and manipulations about the Jedi completely as he says to Obi later, 'to me the Jedi are evil!'. So I wonder if Sidious forsaw some of these events and diliberately said what he said to Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand just after Anakin's duel with Dooku because he forsaw what Mace would do and say, and saw how it would play in turning Anakin.

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Old 10-24-2007, 02:54 PM   #122
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Interesting thoughts there. Nice parallel you draw DarthSeverus...


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Old 10-29-2007, 04:50 PM   #123
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Yeah, but the problem is that in this particular case Darth Sidious also happened to be the *Chancellor of the Republic*. Under normal circumstances the Jedi could have turned over a sith lord they had captured to the Republic authorities for trial and punishment. But this was *not* a normal circumstance. He had corrupted the courts and government in general to the point that they couldn't even be trusted to hold him in prison and punish him for his crimes. Mace Windu obviously couldn't let him escape to go on murdering more people, or attempt to forcibly regain direct control of the government. He had to be stopped, and if the government could no longer be trusted to do it, then the Jedi would have to do it themselves. To save the Republic and save the lives of more innocent people who would otherwise be killed, Palpatine had to be stopped right there.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:19 AM   #124
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I see your point, but I think that Jedi are there as exmplars of justice, if they start becoming judge, jury and executionor (particular when, at least to the Jedi in question the fight is over and the Sith is begging for his/her life) to the kill them means that Jedi has lost their way somewhat. After all, if the Jedi go around deciding when they should uphold justice or should just take it into their own hands as they see fit, I would say they are already on the path to being in some ways little different to the Sith, arbitarily deciding the fates of all beings lives based on their personal desires.

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Old 06-12-2008, 02:40 PM   #125
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if you read the books it tells you how mace windu actually fought and it was something along the lines of him throwing his arms forward really fast and very repetitive but kinov randomly so he would hold his lightsaber and switch it between his hands and kinda throw himself forward at the guy with a ferocity unlike what they showed in the moves cuz the wanted better camera angles


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Old 06-29-2008, 04:54 PM   #126
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Fake fight all right. Considering how easily Sidious slaughtered the other 3 council members, he could have killed Windu just as easily. He had the chance to stab him right through his chest, but he didn't do that.
DarthSeverus: he could see the future (Yoda said in Ep. II that only those who turn to the dark side could see the future if the darkness grew), so it is a very strong possibility that he said those lines on purpose.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:33 PM   #127
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It wasn't really the jedi way for Mace Windu to just decide to kill Palpatine on the spot, but technically he probably knew that if he didn't and decided to stop as soon as he backed off, turned his back, turned off his lightsaber, or shifted his focus from Palpatine for a split second, Palpatine would just force lightning him out the window anyway like he did when Anakin intervened after Mace Windu went in for the final blow.


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Old 07-11-2008, 03:24 PM   #128
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But this was a special circumstance. Palpatine had all the officials in his pocket, either directly or through his alter ego as Sidious, he had corrupted some parts of the senate and had a certain degree of control over the courts, as well, so that he could effectively corrupt the judicial process.
Fixed. Obviously, Mace or anybody else didn't stand a "snowball's chance in hell" as was used erlier, of being fairly convicted. Mace had no choice, but this shows Sideous's talents and where they lie. He managed to singel-handedly cloud the visions of the Jedi Council, and sway the entire Republic, but he was NOT actually much of a fighter. Mace, on the other hand... wel, Vapaad. Think about it. Combat-wise, he is second only to Yoda. Palpy knew the most powerful Jedi would escape Order 66, so he knew he needed Anikin as a bodyguard, just to have a combat-oriented Jedi, as he didn't know Anny would get burned. If Obi-Wan hadn't beat him on Mustafar, he would have been able to hunt down Yoda and everyone else over lunch in the Imperial era.
As was officially clarified, Mace did fairly beat Palpy. But once Anikin showed, I think that, and I cannot believe the words are coming out 'o me fingers, that Palpy-improvised. He HUGELY exaggerated the sliding and whimpering. Those who say his ego was too big to let himself get beat any worse than possible, he didn't seem too concerned about what happened to his face, did he?


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Old 07-11-2008, 04:04 PM   #129
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Fixed. Obviously, Mace or anybody else didn't stand a "snowball's chance in hell" as was used erlier, of being fairly convicted. Mace had no choice, but this shows Sideous's talents and where they lie. He managed to singel-handedly cloud the visions of the Jedi Council, and sway the entire Republic, but he was NOT actually much of a fighter. Mace, on the other hand... wel, Vapaad. Think about it. Combat-wise, he is second only to Yoda. Palpy knew the most powerful Jedi would escape Order 66, so he knew he needed Anikin as a bodyguard, just to have a combat-oriented Jedi, as he didn't know Anny would get burned. If Obi-Wan hadn't beat him on Mustafar, he would have been able to hunt down Yoda and everyone else over lunch in the Imperial era.
Until recently I thought Palpatine just threw the fight because he sensed what he hoped would happen, that Anakin would come to join the confrontation. By being in a weaker position, he could lull Anakin into seeing the Jedi in a aggressive and negative light. However, think now that maybe Mace Windu had Palpatine on the defensive by the end and managed to beat him.

I like you thoughts on this subject Relenzo. Could I ask though where it has been officially confirmed that Windu was the victor in the film? I didn't know there was an canon view of the subject. The fight in the Chancellor's chambers in Ep.III was one of the few things I found confusing about the story. For one thing two of Mace Windu's Jedi comrades, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar, where easily struck down by Palpatine, almost without moving. Also, what about Palpatine's almost equal confrontation with Yoda? The Sith Lord's strength and level of mastery of lightsaber combat is between the very good and the excellent in any case, but it is still hard to define.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:13 PM   #130
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The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!


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Old 07-11-2008, 06:22 PM   #131
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The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!
You have to remember, Yoda and Mace were the top two lightsaber duelists in the Jedi Order, not necessarily the universe.






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Old 07-11-2008, 06:33 PM   #132
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Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:35 PM   #133
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Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...
That could be because Sidious had foreseen this event, and knew that he would get a new apprentice out of it. He probably played down his ability to allow Windu to gain the upper hand, so that he could manipulate Anakin into helping finish old baldy off.






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Old 07-11-2008, 07:47 PM   #134
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True, I can see how that makes sense...I'll go with that, it makes total sense to me


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:52 AM   #135
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Only once Anakin had attacked Windu did Sidious reveal the true extent of his power - it had been a feint all along. Had he been in as bad a shape as he looked, Windu would have killed him. And, as soon as Anakin attacked Windu, he unleashed his rage, which saw Windu off for good (and please, Windu fanboys, don't start spouting theories that he's still alive).

Now, when he fought Yoda, I believe that was Sidious at his full potential, and he was just about a match for Yoda, both in saber combat and force ability, and neither held back - there was no reason to. The fate of the galaxy was going to be decided there and then. Had Yoda won, the Republic would have been saved - Vader would be no match for the Grand Master of the Order.

Vader may have assaulted the Jedi Temple, and killed many, but he had two things in his favor there:

1. He had a legion of stormtroopers with him

2. Most of the Jedi in the temple were Padawans, as most of the Knights and Masters were fighting the war. They would have been no match for a battle hardened Jedi Knight who had slain a Sith Lord.

And the reason Vader was so easily able to defeat the Order's battle master, Cin Drallig, was because, if you look in the security recording, he was using Drallig's apprentice as a shield, forcing Drallig to hold back, rather than harm his padawan.

I kind of went off on a tangent there... but oh well






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Old 07-12-2008, 02:40 PM   #136
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Most of the Jedi in the temple were Padawans, as most of the Knights and Masters were fighting the war.
Source?


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Old 07-12-2008, 03:03 PM   #137
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Source?
Okay, i'll admit, i'm making an assumption on that point, but it's the only explanation I have for Anakin 'I-wannabe-a-sith-too' Skywalker actually succeeding in the assault.






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Old 07-12-2008, 03:36 PM   #138
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I'm not sure I can see what disadvantage you seem to be trying to imply that he would have in the attack.


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Old 07-12-2008, 03:53 PM   #139
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You're right. I guess I am being a bit too hard on Vader. He was the chosen one after all.






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Old 07-12-2008, 04:45 PM   #140
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Uhhh, pretty sure he is the chosen one...

Why does everyone think Mace Windu is some super-natural all-powerful being?
OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?!


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Old 07-12-2008, 05:03 PM   #141
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OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?!
Someone revived it, so we thought it was time to maybe discuss it again.

As to your question about Windu's percieved invincibility, you should hear some of the crackpot theories that he SURVIVED that fight, the lightning, and the 100 story fall into the depths of the planet.

It's really this simple - while he may not have outclassed him, Sidious had him on the backfoot right from the start. The sudden ferocity of his attack, and the fact he easily took down two master with as many strikes, must have had an effect on Windu. That, and I think Windu was overconfident - he expected to easily deal with the chancellor. That, and he trusted Anakin - by the time he realised he couldn't it was too late.






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Old 07-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #142
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OMG, I posted this two years ago. How is this discussion still going on!?!

^^ Through the power of the force.

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The problem with that fight is that, Mace Windu was second to Yoda in lightsaber combat, but he defeated Palpatine in a duel, but Palpatine beat Yoda in a duel...What's up with that?!
You assume that there is a strict heirarchy, and one Jedi is worse than all the people who can beat the people who can beat him. Not quite so, as was said.

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I like you thoughts on this subject Relenzo. Could I ask though where it has been officially confirmed that Windu was the victor in the film? I didn't know there was an canon view of the subject.
I didn't read it myself, but it was mentioned by a number of annoyed people erlier in the thread. I think there is a link on one of the first two pages, to "George's words" on the subject. And of course, whatever George says is canon #1.


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Old 07-12-2008, 05:12 PM   #143
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And of course, whatever George says is canon #1.
Don't say that! You'll upset all the JarJar/ewok haters






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Old 07-12-2008, 07:43 PM   #144
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It was all just a manipulation game set up by Darth Sidious. To make it look like Mace was just trying to kill him. I think that it was a fluke all of the way, on Sidious's part. Mace beat Sidious, but Anakin betrayed him, and Sidious killed him. Simple. It was a manipulation game that Sidious was playing.

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Old 07-16-2008, 02:48 PM   #145
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Don't say that! You'll upset all the JarJar/ewok haters
Bullhonkey to the JarJar/Ewok haters. I've battle with them on the feild of the forum many times and I'm sure they're very upset already.


"The beauty and genius of a work of film may be reconceived, though its first material expression be destroyed; a vanished fiction may yet again inspire the screenplay-writer; but when the last individual of a race of living directors, of artists, breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again." -William Beebe, modified in memorial of the twentieth century

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Old 07-16-2008, 03:19 PM   #146
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Bullhonkey to the JarJar/Ewok haters. I've battle with them on the feild of the forum many times and I'm sure they're very upset already.
Oh, i'm in complete agreement with you as to George's word being law. I've said it many times myself.

And it's only *one* Gungan who gives them a bad name (but not in my opinion I hate Darth Maul more than I do Jar Jar)

And I don't get what's wrong with Ewoks either. I don't think they were in the films to be 'cute' - but to show that you shouldn't underestimate someone based on size and intelligence.






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Old 07-17-2008, 08:32 PM   #147
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Tank you. Out of curiosity... what did Darth Maul do to you?


"The beauty and genius of a work of film may be reconceived, though its first material expression be destroyed; a vanished fiction may yet again inspire the screenplay-writer; but when the last individual of a race of living directors, of artists, breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again." -William Beebe, modified in memorial of the twentieth century

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Old 07-17-2008, 09:13 PM   #148
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but to show that you shouldn't underestimate someone based on size and intelligence
...and that filmmakers can get away with overestimating someone despite their size and intelligence.


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Old 03-07-2009, 04:12 AM   #149
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ive only read about half of this but in my opinion mace and emperour fought fair but even when the emperor was knocked down he still could of won. When mace windu was blocking his lightening and the emperor said he was to weak - he was not he could of kept that lighteining going for about another minute before it would do ant serious damage to him. On the other hand if anakin never showed up mace would of won if he could reflect the lightening long enough.


Also i agree with thingy his death was abit boring i was exspecting a splat or at least some sign that he was actually dead.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:04 AM   #150
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Isn't Mace Windu supposed to be 'all powerful' as well?
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:42 PM   #151
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Yes...but Mace wasn't as good as Yoda, but Yoda was beat by the same person who had been beat by Mace...
even in real life... a fighter can win a fight against a better opponent lets say 2 out of 10 times.

so while sidious may be the stronger fighter he can lose from time to time against a lesser opponent.

also style make fights. i happen to be a HUGE mixed martial arts fan ( ufc anyone? ) a certain skillset can be dominant against a certain opponent but another opponent has a awnser for that skillset so he can nullify it.

maybe this could be the case... yes yoda is the better fighter overall but mace posesses a style that is hard to figure out for sidious.


that said i do think sidious let himself get beaten to turn anikin to the darkside.


.......
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:25 PM   #152
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What I see is, Sidious is more focused in force skills to start with, so it is not impossable if he would lose to a saber master, especially one that lingers close to the edge of the darkside on top of his light side skills. Its a matter of combat style, really. The fight starts well within saber range... so Mace got the upper hand there, even if its only a bit.

And, supposely Sidious IS beaten and killed by Mace, its still a win for the darkside. Mace killing Sidious right in front of Anakin would basically shift Mace to the darkside, eventually if not immediately.


...
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:00 PM   #153
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Yes, Yoda would say "Age matters not"

but thats beside the point, Mace was getting up there in years just like Palpatine

but I believe Palpy let Mace win JUST so he could get Anakin over to his side AKA the dark side

so by letting Mace win, Mace goes in for the kill but Anakin stops him and kills him becuase he starts looking at Palpatine as a source of power to save Padme which i presume overcomes his love of the Jedi


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Old 01-28-2011, 04:48 AM   #154
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My opinion is that Sidious wanted Windu to win. He raised his guard at exactly the wrong time to let Windu deliver the finishing attack. Windu did not use any complex tactics to defeat him. He merely hit him in a spot that and would have invariably stunned anyone struck by the move. Sidious wanted Windu to incapacitate him so he could beg in the corner for Anakin to see. The image of an old man being molested by a supposed ally was a crafty way to play on Anakin´s humility. Sidious sensed Anakin was coming. He decided to improvise a strategy, not certain that Anakin would have come to his aid of his own free will.


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Old 04-13-2011, 08:19 PM   #155
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Fair, look at that n00b cower when he kicks his saber away XD, the only way palpatine won was his cleverness to trick anakin over so many years =/
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:44 PM   #156
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Either way, Sidious won the fight. So Mace never actually "beat" him. It is more correct to say that Mace gained the advantage and then lost it.

It has always been my opinion that Sidious did throw the fight. It's his signature move. He did it against Galen Marek, for instance. He let Starkiller pound him and then right when Starkiller put his lightsaber down, he popped up like a jack-in-the-box and killed him easily.

He tried the same trick on Luke, but it didn't work.

If there is an official canon source that explicitly states that Palpatine in fact was defeated fair and square by Windu, please give me a link.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:48 AM   #157
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My point of view is that Mace won the lightsaber duel, it just happens that Sidious was able to turn the tables when Anakin arrived at the room. He manipulated the situation and took control of it, turned Anakin against the Jedi and took the chance he had to finish off Mace.



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Old 06-10-2011, 11:10 PM   #158
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Sidious purposely told Anakin that he was a Sith lord. Considering the level of planning that goes into everything he does, do you really think that he would risk his life on something like that? He was obviously either expecting or at least allowing for the possibility of a confrontation and must have had little to no doubt whatsoever that he would survive it. Otherwise he wouldn't have told Anakin anything. My guess is that he knew that he couldn't possibly sack the Jedi Temple unless Windu and the other high-ranking masters there were taken out first.

Sidious never puts himself in a compromised position. In ROTJ he had troops waiting for the Rebels at the bunker and had Death Star 2's main cannon ready to fire the whole time. Sure he was killed by Vader, but that is one thing that he really couldn't have planned for if you ask me. Now Mace defeating him in a duel that he purposely set up? That can be planned for.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:51 PM   #159
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maybe it was planned for Mace and Sidious to duel it out "mano-e-mano" in the end, but the way sidious was almost taken out, i'm leaning towards the idea that if anakin hadn't have distracted mace, sidious would have been done in.

Sure sidious took out the other Jedi that came after him, but if the duel were to have happened without Anakin interrupting it, Mace would have come out on top. It wasn't until Sidious had Anakin come to his aid, did sidious actually have the upper hand on mace, but, all it took was one lapse in concentration for things to go horribly wrong for mr. windu, and the galaxy to descend into darkness.


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Old 06-15-2011, 12:56 AM   #160
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Even if Mace would have killed him, do you think that Sidious was still planning on having Anakin rescue him?

Sun Tzu said that "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." Palpatine has always followed this rule no matter what. Therefore, I just cannot accept that Mace ever had a chance in this duel because if he had a chance, Palpatine wouldn't have invited him over.
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