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Old 08-14-2008, 02:39 PM   #1
IreJKA
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Modeling vs Me

Hi everybody,

first off, forgive my bad english, and secondly forgive me if I'm going OT:

What I have in mind is meant for skinning, not for modeling, but for what I've heard here in there, I guess that those things are linked.

Using 3ds Max 5, with the .glm importer, can I load a model and simply change the textures right there? Can I load two models, and build another model with parts of the model n.1 and parts of the model n.2?

And, lastly, why my .glm importer doesen't work? I downloaded one, put it into the plugin folder, and whenever I start 3ds Max it says that the plugin wasn't succesfully loaded ._.

Thanks for all the answers you may give me.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:39 PM   #2
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Yes, you can import .glm(s) and mix body parts from different models together, you will still have to do the rigging to make it a jedi academy character.

I've imported GLM files using max 5 and this importer:
http://psyko3d.50webs.com/tools/maxglmimport1.zip

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Old 08-15-2008, 03:50 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IreJKA View Post
And, lastly, why my .glm importer doesen't work? I downloaded one, put it into the plugin folder, and whenever I start 3ds Max it says that the plugin wasn't succesfully loaded
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyk0Sith View Post
I've imported GLM files using max 5 and this importer:
http://psyko3d.50webs.com/tools/maxglmimport1.zip
lol


That's the one which I was speaking of XD
Still, I re-downloaded it in order to avoid mistakes, and it still gives me that weird error, saying that the ghoul2imp.dli wasn't succesfully loaded
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:02 AM   #4
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Hm, I've got 3Ds Max 2008, can I use that for jedi academy?


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Old 08-15-2008, 05:09 PM   #5
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IreJKA:
Hmm that's strange, i'll see if i can find someone to test it, it's possible this was only used in max 4 then.

Hey Neon :
No you cant, its stops with max 8 unfortunately.

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Old 08-20-2008, 05:06 PM   #6
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Thanks Psyk0Sith! It was perfect. I read the read-me, and one of the errors fixed was exactly the same which 3ds max gave me.

By the way, now I have the tool, but I do not have the knowledge needed for wat i'd like to do. Forgive me if I break any rule, but I wish you could give me one "step-by-step" guide on how to add a cape from one model to the another.. Those tutorial I read didn't give me the "enlightment" that I was looking for, so.. you are my only hope? xD

Thanks in advance
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Old 08-20-2008, 06:02 PM   #7
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No problem.

See this thread for the steps involved:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=191330

Once you have assembled your hybrid model, you have to do the usual rigging.

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Old 08-21-2008, 04:15 AM   #8
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Thanks, I'm just starting figuring out how weighting.

One stupid question: exploring your website and your tutorials, I read strange and evil words like "compiling" "carcass" and "Uwv remap".. does things are nothing of my concern, right? XD
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:17 AM   #9
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They are very much your concern. If you're just re-using other people's work then you won't need to worry about UV Maps, but you can't have a model without compiling it. You will need to compile your model just like you would any other from-scratch model. Simply follow the tutorials' procedures on these issues.

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Old 08-21-2008, 04:29 AM   #10
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Argh, I see. Although compiling wasn't part of Psyk0's step-by-step list @_@ btw, got it.

So, just to sum up:

Load .glm
Get rid of tags
Scale the model
Change what I'd like to change
Weight it
And then? Compile it?

*EDIT*
From a first read of the compiling tutorial, I get that with compile, you mean the whole process of a character creation. So, after the weighting I have to "link to hierarchy" export as a .xsi and than save it as a .glm with assimilate..

I just started 3ds Max to see how I could mix different models parts. I sadly noticed that if I try to change the model arm with another model arm, the whole model seem
[?_?] "un-linked".. Is something I should worry about? I can see the caps between the shoulder and the arm.. Will be this fixed with the weighting?

Forgive the imba-noob like questions.. but this is my first try at modeling, and I'm kinda frigthend of what I've seen and what I'm supposed to do o.o

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-21-2008 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:57 PM   #11
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Compiling: the technical part that is required to convert your XSI file into a .glm file using carcass.exe

The character in its final state exported from 3d max with the weighting and hierarchy done, you feed it to carcass and it will create a .glm...if you did it right .

Unlinking doesnt matter, there's a script that will redo the hierarchy for you. If you have "foreign" meshes that do not follow the naming convention you will have to link them manually, which is quite easy to do.

Here's a tip, focus on weighting the character first, leave the caps alone for now.

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Old 08-22-2008, 04:48 AM   #12
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Well, with the word "unlink" I mean a more pratical issue.. in 3dsmax, parts I burrowed from other models, don't fit in the model I chose as they would in their own.

Btw, yesterday I tried to weight the model, and I endured several problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyk0Sith View Post
You see the "square" icon i selected in the image? thats the scale tool, simply select all the meshes, hold down the left mouse button and drag the mouse in the viewport, watch the units at the bottom until you reach 125.
Although I found the tool you are speaking of, I cannot see where does appear the "125".. So I can't properly scale the model. Still I tried to scale it with a size I thought suitable.

Then I loaded the skeleton, which I downloaded from your site, and tried to weight the mesh on it.
At first, I wasn't able to set the filters about the envelope as you do in your tutorial, since they were uneditable, and as I tried to add lft leg bones, with my enormous surprise I noticed that lt_tarsal was missing.. :s

Am I doing something wrong?
Plz Enlightne me *.*

*EDIT*
Found out why I couldn't edit the envelope filters, the other problems are still there though.

"A picture is worth 1000 words.." :P
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5705/appuntiha1.jpg

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-22-2008 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:15 PM   #13
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To get proper scale, use kyle as a reference (simply merge kyle into the scene and fix the scale of your hybrid):
http://www3.sympatico.ca/psykopat/tools/Kyle&Jan.rar

Tarsal bones were removed from the original Outcast skeleton. in Jedi Academy, Raven got rid of bones that were not needed. So everything's fine.

Ok now i see what you mean, that's simply because you're working with models that werent built to go together, so you need to attach them back as best as you can.

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Old 08-22-2008, 05:21 PM   #14
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Ok.. I'm doing it, I'm actually weighting it o.o

Well, I still have a few questions:

# How to weight face and hands? So far, thanks for your tutorial, I figured it out how to weight "simple" parts like the legs.. But the face/hands are the result of too many bones.. will I have to weight them all and then "share" the weight among them?

# If I import a model without its textures, if I just "merge" it with other scenes, weight the whole things, in the end will the "default" textures still skin the model?
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:21 PM   #15
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-Face weighting
That's a trial and error process, you rotate the bones around and see if it deforms correctly, there's not set values for this. What i did is weight the head 100% to the cranium bone and do the same for the face and then started distributing weights to face bones. Doing this will ensure you locked the border vertices were the face/head are detached from each other.

-The hands
It's still the same deal as the face, once you have done them however, you can leave them with the skeleton and re-use when needed, no need to redo the weights everytime, just like i did with the tags.

(If you temporarily want to get over that hurdle, simply weight all the verts to the hand bone.)

Tip: In max pressing E should center your view to the elements you have currently selected, this is especially useful in a tight spot like the hands.

-All the meshes you have merged together should have kept their UV's so the only thing you'll need to do is go back to original model folders, open the .skn files in notepad, select the body parts that you used, paste them in a new file and change the path like this:

"torso,models/players/yourplayermodelname/torso.jpg"

throw all the textures in "models/players/yourplayermodelname"

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:39 PM   #16
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Thanks you, you have been very helpful

One last thing, and than I promise I won't be harnessing you any longer

How to weight a cape? Is there any kind of "special bone"?




*EDIT* [Deleted the link]

Now is ok? I had to modify the torso's and arm caps in order to make the arm fit the shoulder socket.. <.< is there any way to simply mirror what I have done to the right shoulder/arm so that it affects also the left one? u.u

Thanks!

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-26-2008 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 08-22-2008, 08:41 PM   #17
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There is no 'special bone' for capes -- none of the base models have them so why would there be one? There are a few techniques you can use to weigh a cape. They all look fairly bad, but sometimes you can get it looking... less bad.

Some people will simply weight it to the torso to make what's called a 'cardboard cape,' where it deforms around the shoulders but not at the bottom. Another technique would be to weigh the bottom of the cape to the legs or feet to give it the appearance of moving with the body.

However you decide to do it, though, it won't look realistic. Thus is the failure of capes with these games.

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Old 08-24-2008, 05:37 AM   #18
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http://files.filefront.com/a01zip/;11590206;/filei

It is my 3dsMAX file, where I "weighted" -or at least I hope so- legs and lower body.

I don't know if it is allowed or if I'm asking too much [._.], but I'd like to know if up to now I did it correctly.

Thank you in advance

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-24-2008 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:17 PM   #19
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Problem 1:
You have selected vertex in subobject mode and its preventing the skin modifier to work. Select the hips and click on editable mesh, next click the vertex mode to turn off (when its off it wont be yellow).

Problem 2:
You missed some of the verts and they have no weights assigned to them (between the legs and tip of the boots), dont forget to rotate bones to check for deformations and to see if you weighted all the verts. Always hit undo after rotating the bones to put them back into place.

What i usually do is turn on angle snap, this snaps the rotation to 5 degrees increments so if i accidentally cant set back the bone, i can easily rotate back because the rotations are not random. Pressing A will turn it on/off by default.

Problem 3:
When you scaled the hands, the xforms were not reset and this could cause problems. Select the left arm and attach the left hand to it, repeat for right arm (pick arm first not the other way around!).

Problem 4:
The cape should be named torso_cape because it's a non standard mesh and its parent mesh is the torso. l_handc should be called l_hand, same for the right hand and a few other meshes too.

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Old 08-24-2008, 02:01 PM   #20
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Thanks for the patience.

I think I got the first two things, but..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyk0Sith View Post
When you scaled the hands, the xforms were not reset and this could cause problems. Select the left arm and attach the left hand to it, repeat for right arm (pick arm first not the other way around!).
What do you mean? xform? o.o

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-24-2008 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Learnt how to rename <.<
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:15 PM   #21
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-xform is the way max handles object modifications, attach it to the arm to reset its "broken" state.

-When you select an object, its name will appear in the upper right corner box (where you find the modifiers). You could also right click it, select properties and change the name at the top (object information, name)

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Old 08-24-2008, 02:27 PM   #22
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Thanks.. and, lol, I just edited while you were answering ._. sry

Hopefully, thOSE will be my last questionS..

Although I thought I understood what did you mean in your previous post ("problem 1.") now that I am in Max I can see How I can't get what you truly meant.

If I convert the mesh into editable mesh, by right clicking on the model, the whole skin modifer option will disappear. If I select the mesh modifier it will prompt me with an error message, suggesting me to not to switch modifiers..

# If I rename model parts, won't the textures have problems finding their model? This isn't a model I made, so I find werid that a working .glm, exported in 3dsMax, has parts which are named in the wrong way.

# Is it normal that, using what I think to be the "attach" button, the hand will be permanently "bound" to the arm, and I'll end up with one single mesh named just as the part I "attached"?

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-24-2008 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-24-2008, 05:22 PM   #23
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-Dont convert anything, go into sub object mode in the modifier panel. Simply click the vertex sub object to turn it off, thats all.

-You can always change the .skin file to point to the renamed mesh, thats not a problem.

-Yes the hand will be bound to the arm, simply detach it and rename correctly i guess i forgot to mention that. It's a simple way to reset and object's state.

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Old 08-25-2008, 04:13 AM   #24
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Yeee.. I think I got it right now ^^

Thanks, and forgive me if this post is becoming something like a F.A.Q. <.<

However, I'm starting to think that the rigging process is something.. unclear?

I am unsure of how to weight meshes, for example, which is the bone for hips_belt and hips_flaps? pelvis? Torso is the result of 3 bones, will I have to share the weight among all of them?

I have to apply the "50/50 method" to each caps?

I also have another question, how can I make the mesh move as you do in your tutorial to see if I weighted it right?

# o.o I found a bone, related ONLY to the body, not to the real cape, which is named "torso_cape".. wtf?
Thanks the help and the time you are spending in order to help me, btw u.u"

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-25-2008 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:03 AM   #25
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Rigging process is not unclear, its just different with every model but there's a lot of guessing involved when it's your first try.

If there's a bone near the verts there's a good chance you'll assign weights from it, the torso will most likely use the lower lumbar, upper & thoracic, because that is how it will bend in the game...its the same principle in real life.

No, you dont have to apply the 50/50 method everytime, what you need to do is weight the character first and not worry about the caps. The caps should be done later because they will behave like their parent mesh. You can leave them in the scene, you will temporarily delete them when exporting. Once you are happy with the animation then you can throw them into the mix.

To rotate the bones, use the rotate tool at the top (near the move and scale tool), you have to be careful when doing this, you need to set the bones back to their original state or it'll mess the basepose. What you do is turn on angle snap (press a) and it should rotate in increments of 5 degrees so if you mess up you will be able to rotate back easily since it wont be a random rotation.

I cant find a "torso_cape" bone in the max scene you provided...or meshes, there's only tags called "bolt_torso_cap" which arent the same thing. The extracted JA skeleton from Agustin aka "Corto", did in fact have 2 extra bones for weighting alora's "tentacles" or whatever you call those. They were simply small extensions of the upper leg bone so they were not a major improvement for capes or robes.

You're welcome, i guess i should have made the tutorial with audio, it would have made it a whole lot easier .

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Old 08-25-2008, 12:20 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IreJKA View Post
I found a bone, related ONLY to the body, not to the real cape, which is named "torso_cape".. wtf?

Uhm.. this might has "spawned" after I renamed the cape "torso_cape", just as you suggested.. It could be even a tag.. since I really don't know the difference between tags and bones <.<

However, will I have to apply the 50/50 method to each joint? shoulder-arm, arm-hand, torso-hips, hips-legs?

The caps, if I got it right, are things needed to cover those "uncovered holes" at the end of each mesh. What I meant before, is if will I have to weigth them all.. and if yes, how? Using the same bones I used for the body? I found it weird @_@
Although, reading tutorials and things here and there allowed me to understand that those caps will follow the pattern of their mesh, just as you said. I know that this is a pointless question, after all, as you previously said, caps will be my concern only at the end of the whole rigging process.. It's just that I ike to figure out what I am suposed to do.
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:22 PM   #27
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Yeah i guess 50/50 would work with most joints, but in the end it's up to you to decide if it looks good or not, 50/50 can become 30/70 (or any random number)...depending on how you want the mesh to behave.

Yes all the caps will need to be weighted, using the same bones used for the body, since they're extenstions of the body its only natural they inherit the same deformations.

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Old 08-25-2008, 07:59 PM   #28
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Thanks.. now at least I know that it will take long xD

I've spent about 2 hours trying to do what I learnt.. and this is the best I could get

Same as before: If it does not bother you too much, I'd like you to examine this masterpiece to know if NOW things are going better.

Thanks in advance

Please do not post files which have ported models in them; there is a half-ported Darth Malak from K1 in the max file of the one you linked here. Such activity violates the EULA, so please do not do it. Thanks.

~9

Last edited by Rogue Nine; 08-25-2008 at 11:11 PM. Reason: edited out file link
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:39 PM   #29
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Well the knees arent exactly perfect, when you rotate them, they twist on themselves. Try and keep the back rigid. Think of the bones as pivot points, right now you added influence from the tibia too high up the thigh, keep the verts locked to the upper leg until they reach the pivot point (in this case the tibia)...im sure it doesnt make any sense. I suggest you check the skin modifier tutorial again, see how i handle the ankle joint (you'll notice i keep the shared weights around the pivot area).

You got some verts that arent welded/weighted together, when you rotate the lower lumbar you'll see the flap mesh stuck in place and create a hole in front view.

The hands you imported arent positioned correctly, i merged kyle's on top and yours are too low.

Remember that attaching the hands deal? well you need to do the same with the cape, the pivot point is messed up too.

btw, i'm probably the one that did the rig on the malak model you are using XD.

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Old 08-26-2008, 03:37 AM   #30
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Imported? Argh..

I just downloaded a pack long ago, looked with marveled eyes at the models and thought that the malek one could fit my idea xD

Since I'm not familiar with imported models and modeling, I couldn't tell if they were "handcrafted" or simply stolen..

well, *sigh* forgive me ._.

Btw, thanks Psyk0 for the help ç_ç

*EDIT*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyk0Sith View Post
The hands you imported arent positioned correctly, i merged kyle's on top and yours are too low.
How can I fix that? Simply moving on Z axis the hands? :s

@ RogueNine I deleted the previous link, since the file also contains the same half ported file. One more time, I apologize.

Last edited by IreJKA; 08-26-2008 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:08 AM   #31
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Merge Kyle's hands into the scene and get rid of the old ones, this will probably mean the arms are too low as well =/.

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Old 08-26-2008, 11:18 AM   #32
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Well, I don't know if by low you mean the thing that I see in 3ds MAX. I can only see the hand bones which fall outside the hand mesh.. In order to fix this, can I simply rotate on Y axis the hands, so that I can still use the arms?
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:02 PM   #33
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I'd merge the hands and correct the arm position but that's just me. If the finger bones dont match the mesh, expect crappy animation.

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Old 08-27-2008, 06:35 AM   #34
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Yai! One more unfixable problem!

I did as you suggested.. and it worked fine. I merged another model hands, scaled them so that they stick to the finger bones and adjusted the arms. After the weighting, I saved and exported as a .xsi, deleting the caps and the cape.. just becouse I wanted to see how it would perform animations.

So I read your assimilate&carcass tutorials and set everything ok. I fixed the path in preferences, changed the numerical system to U.S and my keyboard settings... And, as I tried to compile the carcass, it gave me that fastidious error about "Cubic Scale Keys".

Dunno what to do..
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:08 PM   #35
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Hmm yeah that's been a real problem for many people. Try to set english keyboard as the default language when you start windows and make sure you reboot.

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