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Old 08-29-2008, 02:00 AM   #201
Nedak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
now why is it that all of the dates are under 6,000 years old? maybe the Earth really is not millions of years old...why wasn't the wheel invented earlier? The "missing links" should've been smart enough to make wheels?
Oh my.. god..

How about this...

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why can we see stars that are over 10,000 light years away?
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Old 08-29-2008, 03:29 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by han sala View Post
Oh my.. god..

How about this...

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why can we see stars that are over 10,000 light years away?
*jumps up and down with hand raised* Ooo! Ooo! I know this one!

*ahem* When god created the universe, he made the light closer to us so that it would appear as though it had been traveling longer when it finally got here.
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Old 08-29-2008, 04:08 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by han sala View Post
Oh my.. god..

How about this...

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why can we see stars that are over 10,000 light years away?
Oh more info.

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why have we found Dinosaur bones that are over 65 Million years old? Are you suggesting that 6,000 years ago when god created the earth he hid bones of reptiles that never existed and were never mentioned in the bible for no apparent reason other then to laugh at us when we research how old these bones are? If that is the truth then God has a sick sense of humor. But that is more or less proven already


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Old 08-29-2008, 06:04 AM   #204
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LOL, no. "God" has no sick sense of humour, really. It's more like, people expect to much and then get things wrong.

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
now why is it that all of the dates are under 6,000 years old? maybe the Earth really is not millions of years old.
On a more serious note, M@RS, just that I get this right, Earth can't be millions of years old because...known recordings of human history only go back so far?

Quote:
..why wasn't the wheel invented earlier?
Thus spaketh the wiki:

"The invention of the wheel thus falls in the late Neolithic, and may be seen in conjunction with the other technological advances that gave rise to the early Bronze Age. Note that this implies the passage of several wheel-less millennia even after the invention of agriculture. Looking back even further, it is of some interest that although paleoanthropologists now date the emergence of anatomically modern humans to ca.150,000 years ago, 143,000 of those years were "wheel-less". That people with capacities fully equal to our own walked the earth for so long before conceiving of the wheel may be initially surprising, but populations were extremely small through most of this period and the wheel, which requires an axle and socket to actually be useful, is not as simple a device as it may seem. Making and balancing a wheel requires a skilled wheelwright."

To get a feeling for this, maybe you want to take a tree, and make a wheel out of it. Without modern tools like a saw of course. And the wheel alone won't be helpful that much. So there has to be a need to make a wheel to enhance something not sufficient enough any more. Also, keep in mind that you probably have no idea about what a wheel is, nor any experience regarding that. All that you know would be something like a somewhat round stone or a tree trunk can roll downhill.

It is also possible that the wheel wasn't invented as part of a transportation device in the first place.


Quote:
The "missing links" should've been smart enough to make wheels?
No. Note that as mentioned above even the fully enabled human species homo sapiens ("we") went on without inventing the wheel for a long time, so the criteria of "being smart enough" seems not to be the only one. Also, a "missing link" is not something tied to human species for that matter. More specific, a missing link is a yet to be found "transitional" species B between to "final" species A and C.

Transitional fossil AKA the missing link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil

Examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tional_fossils


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Old 08-29-2008, 11:50 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by RakataDark View Post
If the earth is 6,000 years old then why have we found Dinosaur bones that are over 65 Million years old?
Pfft...link... I thought everyone knew that 65 million years is an assumption and technically speaking just as viable as dinosaurs only being 6,000 years old as well. The thing is...they all died rather quickly after being created. That's why they aren't here anymore. God was very sad and mad about the whole ordeal, so he flooded the earth as a punishment. (PS, he'll flood the earth again if all penguins die...FWIW).

While we are at it the Grand Canyon was created by a great flood, so don't question it!

sheesh, doubters.


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Old 08-29-2008, 03:28 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RakataDark View Post
If the earth is 6,000 years old then why have we found Dinosaur bones that are over 65 Million years old?
No, god put those there to test our faith.

And for 65 Million years ago, those are the scientists lying to us.

Don't you see?
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Old 08-29-2008, 05:07 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by RakataDark View Post
Oh more info.

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why have we found Dinosaur bones that are over 65 Million years old? Are you suggesting that 6,000 years ago when god created the earth he hid bones of reptiles that never existed and were never mentioned in the bible for no apparent reason other then to laugh at us when we research how old these bones are? If that is the truth then God has a sick sense of humor. But that is more or less proven already
How do you know the bones were 65 million years old?

did the scientist use carbon dating? If so I have an answer for that. Josephus was right when saying
Quote:
Then he (God) placed a crystalline firmament over the earth.
Wouldn't that be something like ice? if so that would double the air pressure, and did you know that scientists are finding that when they look at air bubbles inside of amber, there is 50% more oxygen?

if so, then carbon dating couldn't work because if there is more pressure there is more carbon squeezed into the bones in a shorter time...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-29-2008, 05:17 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M@RS
How do you know the bones were 65 million years old?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_..._(archaeology)



Last edited by Ray Jones; 08-30-2008 at 02:55 AM. Reason: d'oh
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Old 08-29-2008, 05:27 PM   #209
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m@rs the skype chat 'ITT: We hope you long time.' thinks you are living proof there was no intelligence behind any of our design


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Old 08-29-2008, 07:07 PM   #210
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Thanks for answering my question again M@RS.

You're the man
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Old 08-30-2008, 02:51 AM   #211
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M@RS stop editing more/other "context" to your posts after someone replied. No need to make my post look redundant. >:


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Old 08-30-2008, 05:11 AM   #212
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Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:40 AM   #213
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@ M@RS - I'm just going to keep reposting this until you actually answer my points... Not that you can, because your soo wrong you make Jar-Jar Binks look like Aristotle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by han sala View Post
Oh my.. god..

How about this...

If the earth is 6,000 years old then why can we see stars that are over 10,000 light years away?
Already tried that - unfortunately apparently totally avoiding answering the point and/or using anti-science apparently answers the point :rollseyes:

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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
M@RS - I am point of fact a Christian - now I have only met one Christian member of the intelligentsia who thought the earth was 6,000 years old - and his explanation was possible. However I have never seen any other YEC use his theory to explain things...

Ooh, Achilles - we haven't been here for a while but its Sherlock Holmes quote time...



This means that if you have decided that the moon is made of cheese (or the earth is 6,000 years old) that no amount of evidence to the contrary will show you that your conclusion is wrong. If you have decided something on non-logical grounds, logic can have no impact on your reasoning - so really we are all wasting our time trying to show you, that you are incorrect.



QFT



Why does evolution have to be random in the way you think? If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, why do you think he couldn't use evolution?

a) Since when was Josephus Egyptian?
b) When did Josephus ever say Jesus rose from the dead?



Really, and why is the earth being 6 billion years old out of line with the Bible? Please could you refer me to the part of the Bible that explicitly states the earth is 6,000 years old, instead of counting down genealogies to get an apparent earth ages.



I love how you didn't answer my question. Let me pose it again...

a) Why do all the most brilliant minds today thing the earth is alot older than 6,000 years old?
b) So the said brilliant minds think the earth is very old; If God gives someone a brilliant mind, and they note from the evidence that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years old - and so rule out God - is it fair of God to damn them, for using an ability he gave them?

Final note - may I inquire why are you arguing the age of the earth with people who don't trust in Jesus? Do you not think it may be more useful to show love, and talk about him than argue abot entirely trivial matters? And taking the subject wildly off-topic?



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:03 PM   #214
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Already tried that - unfortunately apparently totally avoiding answering the point and/or using anti-science apparently answers the point :rollseyes:
If that is the case, that's sad.

Kind of proves he's not confident in his beliefs in that case.
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Old 08-31-2008, 06:43 PM   #215
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@ Jonathan7 how can you be a christian, I assume that you read the Bible, which in the first verse says
Quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Not that the Big Bang occurred.

Also, jonathan7 it's called faith, you know one of the major points of Christianity...

Now with the whole not answering questions, I don't know everything, I can't answer every question (it's called faith in the Bible) and it's only me, I'm the only one, as of right now that's able to try and debate, I'm not as smart as most of you. I'm no debater, you all know that

I've said this several times, but I'll say it again. It's takes faith, you need faith to believe in evolution too. Were any of you there to witness the Big Bang? Was anything there? No, now were did everything that makes up the planets, stars, galaxies, ect.? How is it possible for all of the stuff in the universe to be squished into a smal dot, where did the pressure come from to squish it all together? Now in the textbooks, it says that the dot was spinning and it exploded, now if that's true than wouldn't everything be spinning the same direction? Why isn't that true? Several things spin backwards. What about the sun? If the Earth is billions of years old, than why isn't the Sun bigger? That's all I have to say right about now...


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Originally Posted by Q View Post
I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-31-2008, 07:38 PM   #216
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@ Jonathan7 how can you be a christian, I assume that you read the Bible, which in the first verse says

Not that the Big Bang occurred.

Also, jonathan7 it's called faith, you know one of the major points of Christianity...

Now with the whole not answering questions, I don't know everything, I can't answer every question (it's called faith in the Bible) and it's only me, I'm the only one, as of right now that's able to try and debate, I'm not as smart as most of you. I'm no debater, you all know that

I've said this several times, but I'll say it again. It's takes faith, you need faith to believe in evolution too. Were any of you there to witness the Big Bang? Was anything there? No, now were did everything that makes up the planets, stars, galaxies, ect.? How is it possible for all of the stuff in the universe to be squished into a smal dot, where did the pressure come from to squish it all together? Now in the textbooks, it says that the dot was spinning and it exploded, now if that's true than wouldn't everything be spinning the same direction? Why isn't that true? Several things spin backwards. What about the sun? If the Earth is billions of years old, than why isn't the Sun bigger? That's all I have to say right about now...
The Big Bang is not a part of the Theory of Evolution. Get that through your head. Also, saying others need to have faith is a pretty ****ty argument, please get a new one kthx.



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Old 08-31-2008, 07:42 PM   #217
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The Big Bang is not a part of the Theory of Evolution. Get that through your head. Also, saying others need to have faith is a pretty ****ty argument, please get a new one kthx.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Pushing faith onto people is a basis of Christianity so you shouldn't be surprised


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Old 08-31-2008, 07:51 PM   #218
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@ Jonathan7 how can you be a christian, I assume that you read the Bible, which in the first verse says
With that logic I guess God didn't create the universe then, since it says he only created "Heavens and the Earth".

BTW, I'm in the process of reading the bible right now. Almost done with Genesis (note: I'm not Christian).

Quote:
Now with the whole not answering questions, I don't know everything, I can't answer every question (it's called faith in the Bible) and it's only me, I'm the only one, as of right now that's able to try and debate, I'm not as smart as most of you. I'm no debater, you all know that
Then wouldn't it be completely rational of you to just say, "I don't know" and go on your merry way? It would have been smart of you to just say "I don't know, I just have to believe this. I don't know why but I have to."

Instead you choose to debate people who have facts, sources, and years of education on the subject.

Wasn't the best idea.
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:56 PM   #219
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Pushing faith onto people is a basis of Christianity so you shouldn't be surprised
Don't talk about things you don't understand, kthx.

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Old 08-31-2008, 09:17 PM   #220
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Couldn't have said it better myself. Pushing faith onto people is a basis of Christianity so you shouldn't be surprised
Yes, of course, because somehow along the way the idea of sharing peace and love with our fellow humans means we're just being pushy.


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Old 08-31-2008, 09:38 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Yes, of course, because somehow along the way the idea of sharing peace and love with our fellow humans means we're just being pushy.
The way a lot of christians choose to go about doing it, yeah.


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Old 08-31-2008, 09:41 PM   #222
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The way some overly vocal evangelical christians choose to go about doing it, yeah.
Fixed.

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Old 08-31-2008, 09:42 PM   #223
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The way a lot of christians choose to go about doing it, yeah.
Define 'a lot'. Do you have data to support this?


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Old 08-31-2008, 09:52 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Define 'a lot'. Do you have data to support this?
If you believe all - or even most - christians are sincerely interested in sharing peace and love with their fellow men, I doubt you'd believe any data even if I did offer it.


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Old 08-31-2008, 09:57 PM   #225
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The same goes for you, Devon. If you believe all Christians are as you described then I'd say you're willfully blind.

But this isn't a religion thread. Let's not turn it into one.

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Old 08-31-2008, 09:57 PM   #226
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M@RS - answer THIS question;

I love how you didn't answer my question. Let me pose it yet again...

a) Why do all the most brilliant minds today thing the earth is a lot older than 6,000 years old?
b) So the said brilliant minds think the earth is very old; If God gives someone a brilliant mind, and they note from the evidence that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years old - and so rule out God, because the Bible apparently indicates the earth is 6,000 years old - is it fair of God to damn them, for using an ability he gave them?

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@ Jonathan7 how can you be a christian, I assume that you read the Bible, which in the first verse says
*sigh* You really are trying my signature now....

Ever heard of a guy called C.S. Lewis - because he believed in an old earth...

Suffice to say this, I am rather familiar with the Bible - do you have to do any seminars or talks on it?

Genesis is written as a Hebrew poem; the main point to take is that the Sun, moon, earth and animals are created by God, and therefore should not be worshipped. There are quite a few problems with Genesis if you take it literally, specifically why are there two different accounts of the creation of man?

Anyways

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Not that the Big Bang occurred.
Oh, oh I can play this game!

Please point me to the part of the Bible that states the earth is 6,000 years old.

An oh look here's a Christian who believes in an old earth; http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer and another; http://www.reasons.org/about/staff/ross.shtml and another; http://www.rzim.org/

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Also, jonathan7 it's called faith, you know one of the major points of Christianity...
Charles Larson produced a simply wonderful quote; "While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. When they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth."

Proverbs 21:24; "The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride".

Your behaviour to me would seem to indicate you have missed most of the Bible's central points - is the above an appropriate way to address a spiritual elder?

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Now with the whole not answering questions, I don't know everything, I can't answer every question (it's called faith in the Bible) and it's only me, I'm the only one, as of right now that's able to try and debate, I'm not as smart as most of you. I'm no debater, you all know that
What I see, is someone antagonising a whole load of atheists (who in all likely hood already have a bad view of Christianity), quite a few are my friends. And your winding them up with a bunch of pseudo-science and failing to even mention Jesus, but instead going on about something which has no relevance to the saving of souls.

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I've said this several times, but I'll say it again. It's takes faith, you need faith to believe in evolution too.
No, really trust me, I have faith in Jesus, I don't have faith in evolution - ergo your entire argument just collapsed.

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Were any of you there to witness the Big Bang?
Did you think this through before you typed it?...

Were you there to witness it? Indeed by this logic I don't believe that your great gran mother existed as none of us where there to witness it.

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Was anything there?
How do you know - you weren't there!

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
No, now were did everything that makes up the planets, stars, galaxies, ect.? How is it possible for all of the stuff in the universe to be squished into a smal dot, where did the pressure come from to squish it all together? Now in the textbooks, it says that the dot was spinning and it exploded, now if that's true than wouldn't everything be spinning the same direction?
Your grasp of science is so poor its untrue, and its clear you have absolutely no understanding what so ever of the big bang theory.

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Why isn't that true? Several things spin backwards. What about the sun? If the Earth is billions of years old, than why isn't the Sun bigger? That's all I have to say right about now...
Frankly; your talking out of your behind! Silence - stop talking in this subject and winding everyone up, as its clear you are only hear to beat people over the head with your pseudo-science poo, you aren't taking on board anything we say, and expect us to accept your ridiculously poor reasoning.

Consider this before you reply -

Proverbs 10:8; "The wise in heart accept commands, but a chattering fool comes to ruin"

Proverbs 12:15; "The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.."

My advice is this - stop being a bad witness to the gospel and winding up a great many people, its clear you have no intention of doing any thinking with regards this thread, so just stop posting for the benefit of everyone in thread, and stop taking the thread wildly off-topic.



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 08-31-2008, 10:01 PM   #227
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The same goes for you, Devon. If you believe all Christians are as you described then I'd say you're willfully blind.
Never said all of them were.

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It's takes faith, you need faith to believe in evolution too.
Faith:

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

I've got no faith whatsoever in evolution. That's the nice thing about science, it doesn't ask us for any.


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Old 08-31-2008, 11:06 PM   #228
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M@RS - answer THIS question;

I love how you didn't answer my question. Let me pose it yet again...

a) Why do all the most brilliant minds today thing the earth is a lot older than 6,000 years old?
b) So the said brilliant minds think the earth is very old; If God gives someone a brilliant mind, and they note from the evidence that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years old - and so rule out God, because the Bible apparently indicates the earth is 6,000 years old - is it fair of God to damn them, for using an ability he gave them?
A) Yes, you're right, but, the most brilliant minds used to believe that the Earth was flat, and that a bigger object fell faster than a smaller object, and that you didn't need to wash your hands before going on to the next patient in a hospital. The majority can be wrong.
B)That's touchy ground, I'm not going to answer that for fear of answering it wrong


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:08 PM   #229
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A) Yes, you're right, but, the most brilliant minds used to believe that the Earth was flat, and that a bigger object fell faster than a smaller object, and that you didn't need to wash your hands before going on to the next patient in a hospital. The majority can be wrong. Any questions?
You just proved that facts win the day. Which just shows that you're being as ignorant as those who still believed the Earth was flat after indisputable proof that it wasn't.

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Old 08-31-2008, 11:24 PM   #230
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Yes, of course, because somehow along the way the idea of sharing peace and love with our fellow humans means we're just being pushy.
I think your argument makes the mistake of assuming that religion is the only way to do that. Even if it doesn't make that mistake and instead makes the other mistake of assuming that it's the best, or even "a very good", way of doing that, it's still wrong.

If you want to spread peace and love, spread peace and love. No need to dress it up in a bunch of superstitious wishful thinking to get the job done.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:30 PM   #231
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No need to dress it up in a bunch of superstitious wishful thinking to get the job done.
You're mistaking a religion for the religious.


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Old 08-31-2008, 11:34 PM   #232
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Religion = superstitious wishful thinking.
"the religious" = those that engage in it.

No need for the latter to participate in the former to promote peace and love. Evidence.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:39 PM   #233
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Religion = superstitious wishful thinking.
"the religious" = those that engage in it.

No need for the latter to participate in the former to promote peace and love. Evidence.
I'm not religious, I don't participate in religion, I participate in a friendship with Jesus Christ, the person who died for my sins for me, and you


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:41 PM   #234
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I'm not religious I participate in a friendship with Jesus Christ
Either you're religious or you're involved in some sick child-rapers game.


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Old 08-31-2008, 11:43 PM   #235
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I think your argument makes the mistake of assuming that religion is the only way to do that. Even if it doesn't make that mistake and instead makes the other mistake of assuming that it's the best, or even "a very good", way of doing that, it's still wrong.
Neither is the case, though I think Christianity's paradigm of missionary outreach to bring food, medical supplies, etc. to people that need it works pretty well. I'm pointing out to the poster above that just because Christians are religious, it doesn't mean we're just trying to cram religion down everyone's throat. Some of us actually, shockingly, try to do something positive with our religion.

However, I think I've taken this off-topic so it's probably best if this thread gets back to the subject at hand.


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Old 08-31-2008, 11:46 PM   #236
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Religion = superstitious wishful thinking.
Or is it a bunch of stories that metaphorically speak words of wisdom in regards to a lifestyle. Moral guidance you could say.

Religion isn't all evil. It's people who turn it to that when they let their hatreds dictate their interpretation of a story.

I think what you're really trying to say is Christianity is superstitious wishful thinking. But you can't because that would be directed negativity and that would blow the whole under the radar jab you had going there.

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No need for the latter to participate in the former to promote peace and love. Evidence.
I never said one had to be religious to not be a douchebag. In fact I consistently say the opposite.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:55 PM   #237
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Or is it a bunch of stories that metaphorically speak words of wisdom in regards to a lifestyle. Moral guidance you could say.
There certainly is that component to it. But along the same lines of my earlier point, there are lots of ways to do that too.

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Religion isn't all evil. It's people who turn it to that when they let their hatreds dictate their interpretation of a story.
Religion doesn't have to be evil to qualify for "superstitious wishful thinking" status. "Good" or "evil" have absolutely nothing to do with superstition or wishful thinking.

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I think what you're really trying to say is Christianity is superstitious wishful thinking. But you can't because that would be directed negativity and that would blow the whole under the radar jab you had going there.
I am absolutely saying that (and I'm not just limiting it to christianity either). In fact, I thought I did say that.

If my comment came across as an attempt to be "under the radar", I think I'll need to reassess what passes for subtlety around here.

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I never said one had to be religious to not be a douchebag. In fact I consistently say the opposite.
I'm glad we're in agreement then
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:05 AM   #238
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b) So the said brilliant minds think the earth is very old; If God gives someone a brilliant mind, and they note from the evidence that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years old - and so rule out God, because the Bible apparently indicates the earth is 6,000 years old - is it fair of God to damn them, for using an ability he gave them?
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B)That's touchy ground, I'm not going to answer that for fear of answering it wrong
There's no wrong answer to an opinion question. I'm curious as to what your answer would be as well. You have an opinion on everything else.

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Old 09-01-2008, 12:10 AM   #239
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Yes it is fair to damn them to hell, because he loved us so much he gave us the choice, he's not a tyrant who makes you think what he wants them to think. He gave us the choice.


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 09-01-2008, 12:17 AM   #240
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So then God sets us up to fail? I think even the Old Testament version of God isn't quite that... mean. It doesn't make sense that God would give us "gifts" and then expect us not to use them. Or worse, that he would punish us for using what he gave us.

In any case there's fairly indisputable proof that the world is older than 6000 years. So no need for anyone to be damned.

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