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Old 08-30-2008, 05:54 AM   #121
Master Zionosis
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Originally Posted by Linky Triforce View Post
Reason everybody went Jedi in galaxies(I think) was because it was so good.. and if you wanted to pvp you required the best because all pvp'ers play to be #1(talk about egos huh?)

Becoming a Jedi in Galaxies(originally) wasn't exactly the easiest thing in the world(holo-grinding and xp grinding both had their places) and going up the trees took time and effort.

Although if you ask me, they should make Jedi hard to get, and following Galaxies tradition keep it hidden how you do it and change it from a time to time without saying of course..

And make Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith heavy roleplay characters.. If getting a Jedi or even just leveling it up takes ages with no real benefit other than to say: been there, done that. and just let Jedi training be RP based... Perhaps 1 Jedi lesson per day of any tier skill(although the higher tier the more difficult it gets, and if you fail then you can come back the day after since you used up todays lesson)

Might just do the trick and keep Jedi to within a minimum population since you could just go and do a bounty hunter and be done in a few weeks rather than a few months on a Jedi
No, I don't think that's the way to go.

Can I quote myself here? (Taken from the K3 speculation thread)

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Originally Posted by Master Zionosis
A player chooses to start as Jedi, but until you reach a certain level out of (e.g. 100), you character is played as a different class (e.g. Swordsman). Upon reaching the required level (e.g. 50) you then trigger some sort of event where you find out you are force sensitive, similar to the amnesia storyline of Revan, but not amnesia.

If the maximum level is 100, and the required level to find out about force sensitivity is half of that, that leads me to believe that quite allot of the population that want to be Jedi straight away and get really uber cool force powers will not want to wait that long, only players dedicated to getting there will do it.

The reason why I say this, is because I have played numerous MMO's, and if you want something but not so much that you have to level 50 levels to get there, you won't do it, which will ultimately, reduce Jedi numbers.
Another idea that I thought of that Da_Man_2423 elaborated on, to also add to the above idea, would be to cap the servers for the % of how many Jedi there are allowed, so the more people that join a server that aren't Jedi the more people will be able to play as Jedi. That would definitely guarantee more of any other class than Jedi.

~MZ

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Old 08-31-2008, 12:09 PM   #122
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Unfortunately you will be losing a portion of your player base by restricting the Jedi class (I couldn't be a Sith Lord in Galaxies so much for that game)...

The deal with an MMO is to give you, the subscriber, entertainment but also basically what you desire (through grinding, etc.)... since it is a Star Wars product, set in the KotOR era, the Jedi/Sith are things that customers will want, and rightfully so as it is Knights of the Old Republic. Limiting them in any way is folly.

Perhaps the other available classes for said Star Wars MMO ought to be looked into, make them more appealing to play by giving them their own respective 'bonuses'.


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Old 08-31-2008, 12:28 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by RedHawke View Post
Unfortunately you will be losing a portion of your player base by restricting the Jedi class (I couldn't be a Sith Lord in Galaxies so much for that game)...

The deal with an MMO is to give you, the subscriber, entertainment but also basically what you desire (through grinding, etc.)... since it is a Star Wars product, set in the KotOR era, the Jedi/Sith are things that customers will want, and rightfully so as it is Knights of the Old Republic. Limiting them in any way is folly.

Perhaps the other available classes for said Star Wars MMO ought to be looked into, make them more appealing to play by giving them their own respective 'bonuses'.
Couldn't agree more..
especially on the other classes. I want to be a "Han Solo" darn it hehehe


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Old 08-31-2008, 12:43 PM   #124
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Just remember my words - you make Force-Sensitivity easily accessible, and not only will RP turn into a raging cesspool of crap, but the forums will turn into an endless stream of pure undiluted whine about how either Jedi are too powerful or Jedi aren't powerful enough.
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:56 PM   #125
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They should at least give the player the choice of online or singleplayer for the game.


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Old 08-31-2008, 12:59 PM   #126
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They should at least give the player the choice of online or singleplayer for the game.
For an MMO? Kinda defeats the purpose.

Or are you talking about a non-MMO "KotOR 3" (as in sequel, not franchise addition).


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Old 08-31-2008, 01:09 PM   #127
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Yeah, because that worked out so well with Hellgate: London.

Although, to be fair, the Singleplayer mode wasn't what ruined that game. The game was just awful.
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Old 08-31-2008, 01:14 PM   #128
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Just remember my words - you make Force-Sensitivity easily accessible, and not only will RP turn into a raging cesspool of crap, but the forums will turn into an endless stream of pure undiluted whine about how either Jedi are too powerful or Jedi aren't powerful enough.
Just so long as it's not on this forum, i'll be fine.






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Old 08-31-2008, 01:23 PM   #129
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yea i really hope theres some kinda mode where you can do all of the quests and such that you would do with other ppl, by yourself. and that if they did pvp it would be an arena like experience where u wouldnt die


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Old 08-31-2008, 03:16 PM   #130
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There are MMO games that give the player a choice of playing single player or playing online.


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Old 08-31-2008, 03:18 PM   #131
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Name one that isn't Hellgate.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:34 PM   #132
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Halo, Jedi Academy, Battlefront, Battlefront II, and I think there's a few more.


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Old 08-31-2008, 05:36 PM   #133
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None of which are Massively Multiplayer.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:38 PM   #134
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You asked.


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Old 08-31-2008, 05:55 PM   #135
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I asked for MMO games. None of those are MMOs.
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:44 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by JediRevan View Post
Halo, Jedi Academy, Battlefront, Battlefront II, and I think there's a few more.
... by more you must mean CoD4, the FPS of the year.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online


Halo fits 2 of those, multiplayer and online, but its not "Massive"

Halo is 16 person, WoW is 5,000 person.



Anyway, you also got to understand that with the transition from a single player game to a multiplayer game, theres gotta be some losses. Gameplay has to be changed to be more fun for more people at once, not 1 person in there basement.

Again, one of the best examples of this is WoW, going from Warcraft 3's storyline about a mans rise and fall from the light to killing 30 spiders is amazing.

I always figured that there are 3 elements that make a good game:

Gameplay
Graphics
Storyline

Unfortuantly, you can't have all 3, because they all limit each other in a way, for example, Gears of War Great Graphics, pretty cool gameplay, terrible generic storyline.

The closest game to being perfect (IMO) is TES:Oblivion, but its a tad lacking in storyline in comparision to the 3rd TES.

My suggestion is

Deal With it

The next Kotor going to be a MMO, like it or not.

But, if you can't get around that, look in WoW's direction again, with the money blizzards making from WoW, they are making 2 new sequels.

Imagine, ME2, JK4, and BF3 all from the Kotor MMO.


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Old 08-31-2008, 09:02 PM   #137
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No, the elements that make a good game are Gameplay and Storyline. Graphics is just that - Graphics. Eye Candy. It contributes very little to the actual game, as long as the graphics are from this decade. The obsession with graphics is slowly killing quality gaming like a disease.

However, I don't see the tradeoff with gameplay, storyline, and graphics. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:03 AM   #138
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Unfortunately you will be losing a portion of your player base by restricting the Jedi class (I couldn't be a Sith Lord in Galaxies so much for that game)...

The deal with an MMO is to give you, the subscriber, entertainment but also basically what you desire (through grinding, etc.)... since it is a Star Wars product, set in the KotOR era, the Jedi/Sith are things that customers will want, and rightfully so as it is Knights of the Old Republic. Limiting them in any way is folly.

Perhaps the other available classes for said Star Wars MMO ought to be looked into, make them more appealing to play by giving them their own respective 'bonuses'.
I agree with you, you cannot roll out a Kotor MMO and then restrict the amount of jedi´s by rules the player himself has allmost no influence on. As in max. % of jedi on a server, that basically screws over every player that joined the game/server later.

@Master Zionosis: Having a min. level in order to start your jedi training will not prevent anyone from becoming a jedi if that particular class is too strong, because MMO´s are longtime games meant to be played for month or years. At some point every player will hit the max lvl, there is no MMO where it is not the goal of the player to reach the level cap. Actually in allmost every MMO except the asian grinder´s the real game expierience starts when you hit the level cap (as in the maximum amount of your abilities and talents), because thats when the endgame content, raiding, pvp and so on starts.

So the easiest way to reduce the amount of Jedi´s is to not make them too overpowered and to give all others classes attractive abilities aswell.

And in the end who cares about jedis anyway, i´d much rather play a mandalorian with shiny beskar´gam a beskaad and some big blaster:-), and judging from the amount of jedi´s / sith / dark jedi´s my non jedi party members desintegrated in KotOR those old republic force users werent that tough anyway:-).
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:31 AM   #139
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You make Jedi too weak, and you'll have fans demanding a buff because it's basically screwing Lore for Balance. Just saying.
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Old 09-02-2008, 02:33 AM   #140
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Just remember my words - you make Force-Sensitivity easily accessible, and not only will RP turn into a raging cesspool of crap, but the forums will turn into an endless stream of pure undiluted whine about how either Jedi are too powerful or Jedi aren't powerful enough.
That type of 'whining' happens in all MMO's... there will always be a power-gamer 'flavor of the month'. Jedi/Sith will be what they are, the other classes are the key to the games success, make them each special in some way to make people want to roll one up.

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You make Jedi too weak, and you'll have fans demanding a buff because it's basically screwing Lore for Balance. Just saying.
Again you state this like it is a 'problem' it really isn't... and is a part of these MMO's and the people who play thems ways. Part of the player base will want more power and the other part (who don't like or roll the 'flavor of the month' characters that power-gamers do) will want them 'nerfed'. It is the way of things.

Balance always trumps Canon or Lore (the game has to be fair and play-able.)

It also isn't a 'bad' thing...


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Old 09-02-2008, 03:05 AM   #141
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MMOtor will be good if...
...they take out the MMO part. Nah, just kidding. Well, not really. But it could be good, if they focus more on story and ensure that there are ways to gain XP without killing everything in sight. And then quadruple the number of ways they come up with. And from what I've heard from the developers' comments, that's what they're doing--we'll have to just wait and see, it seems. Even then it wouldn't be my cup of tea, since I'm not into roleplaying.

As for the Jedi issue, I see only two possible ways the devs could make a completely balanced system: either they make everybody a Jedi, or nobody a Jedi. Now, the latter would cause an immeasurable number of complaints, and the former would negate some roleplaying opportunities (not that I care, but I figure I'm only one out of several million). So, take the former, but put a twist on it.

The Jedi Order was nearly wiped out in K2; most Force sensitives--half the party, for instance--are Force sensitive without knowing it (or they know, but have never been formally trained). And yet those same characters are bounty hunters, techs, pilots, historians, and...er...professional albino boxers? I think you can see where I'm going here; every player in the MMO could be Force sensitive, with that ability naturally growing over time instead of being unlocked by some arbitrary skill choices (only to have the system change half-way through enabling anyone to be a Jedi from the start), but they still would have a number of carreer choices. In fact, they could choose not to focus on their Force abilities at all, instead gaining more skills, abilities, etc.

A generic soldier killing a Jedi singlehandedly is a bit unbelievable, but Force senstivie soldier--even one who isn't trained in the Force--killing a Jedi isn't all that believable; their Force sensitivity still gives them a slight edge, so it's an even match. Well, the Jedi in the fight still has advantages such as...oh, a lightsaber (or two), and experience using the Force, but that's where all those other abilities that non-Jedi get come in.

In any case, everybody as a (potential) Jedi...anyone with me?

Of course, I doubt BioWare is actually doing this, seeing as some of the rumors place the game at around 500 years after K2. But meh, a guy can hope.


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Old 09-02-2008, 05:46 AM   #142
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Balance always trumps Canon or Lore (the game has to be fair and play-able.)
It doesn't have to be. I read the other week about a group of FFO players who spent 18 hours trying to defeat a monster that couldn't be killed.

But that's an extreme example.

I'm all for fairness and playability, but not at the expense of the story and lore.






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Old 09-03-2008, 05:34 AM   #143
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I say that Galaxies kinda got it right with making Jedi a starter class(*dodges all the rotten veggies thrown at him*) The problem isn't with the Jedi as a starting class. It's the time period. There weren't supposed to be so many jedi. And believe me, I HATE Jedi in Galaxies... I mean HATE!!!

Lets face it, according to lore, jedi are trained from very early on in their lives. Younglings basically... so by the time they are adults they should already be a jedi. Now as a starting class, they would have to have their advantages, but also have their disadvantages. Heck you could make it to where the only places they can get missions out of for the first 20 to 30 levels is out of the Jedi/Sith academies. Basically bore them out of the jedi roles haha... Make it tedious to become a Jedi Master. If the other classes can gain levels and max out faster, you will see that only the dedicated would want to be jedi. Jedi should be able to have good defenses, but lose out on combat effectiveness in other areas... Maybe less damage...

1:1 balance is a bad idea in an MMO. All it does is cause endless nerf cries. So you give each class it's weaknesses based around another classes strengths.

Give soldiers higher Dex Str and Stam bonuses for the fights... Heavy armors and area damage weapons so they can beat a jedi to death... Give them advantages over jedi that would mean a jedi against a soldier should almost always lose... Unless the soldier is exceptionally bad, and the Jedi is exceptionally good.

Give Scoundrels the ability to avoid damage like crazy. But make them more vulnerable to force attacks. so against a soldier, they should always win... against a jedi should be signing their own death warrant...

Now I'm not fully fleshing it out, but that's just my take on it. Basically there should be up to 6 combat classes. Each one should have it's class it can defeat easily, one that it gets beaten up by profusely, and one or two that can go either way...

Heck it could be something like
Jedi<Soldier<Medic<Scoundrel<Bounty Hunter<Creature Handler<Jedi

Now before you Han Shot first guys jump on me, I got two things to say. 1) Han was in a cantina, it's like his home there. 2) Greedo was a very bad bounty hunter, and Han was an exceptional smuggler.

Ok Boba Fett... well he kinda got taken out by a creature....

Why that way?
Jedi is weak against heavy fire but good at close range
Soldier is weak against poisons good at throwing damage out
Medic bad at normal damage, good at poison damage
Scoundrel bad at ranged defense. immune to most poison damage(proximity to all the spice)
BH bad at dealing with multiple targets, good at ranged attacks
CH bad at close range, good at sending animals to attack.

Ideally you would in a group have a scoundrel take out their medic, first. but he'd have to get TO the medic haha

Just my thoughts on it...
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:42 AM   #144
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Lets face it, according to lore, jedi are trained from very early on in their lives. Younglings basically... so by the time they are adults they should already be a jedi. Now as a starting class, they would have to have their advantages, but also have their disadvantages. Heck you could make it to where the only places they can get missions out of for the first 20 to 30 levels is out of the Jedi/Sith academies. Basically bore them out of the jedi roles haha... Make it tedious to become a Jedi Master.
I think that the dedication thing sounds like possibly a good idea - a Jedi's life is dedication, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Jedi should be able to have good defenses, but lose out on combat effectiveness in other areas... Maybe less damage...
Why should they get less damage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Give soldiers higher Dex Str and Stam bonuses for the fights... Heavy armors and area damage weapons so they can beat a jedi to death... Give them advantages over jedi that would mean a jedi against a soldier should almost always lose... Unless the soldier is exceptionally bad, and the Jedi is exceptionally good.
That's just going too far - no-one will want to play as a Jedi if it's the way you describe. Why not just call rename the class 'Jedi-Killer' if it's like that?

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Originally Posted by Tommycat
Now I'm not fully fleshing it out, but that's just my take on it. Basically there should be up to 6 combat classes. Each one should have it's class it can defeat easily, one that it gets beaten up by profusely, and one or two that can go either way...
All that's going to do is cause problems - everyone will be avoiding each other for fear that they're going to be slaughtered. That doesn't sound very fun.






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Old 09-03-2008, 05:58 AM   #145
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I think that the dedication thing sounds like possibly a good idea - a Jedi's life is dedication, after all.
Of course... But it's only my idea and may have nothing like that in the game.

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Why should they get less damage?
If you get high defense, you lose out on damage. If you get high damage, you lose out on defense.


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That's just going too far - no-one will want to play as a Jedi if it's the way you describe. Why not just call rename the class 'Jedi-Killer' if it's like that?
Male Bovine Fecal Matter! I guarantee there'll be hordes of people who want to play jedi for the glow bat alone. Because a soldier can be trained to resist force techniques. A soldier can wear heavy armor. A soldier can be trained to defeat even jedi.


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All that's going to do is cause problems - everyone will be avoiding each other for fear that they're going to be slaughtered. That doesn't sound very fun.
Again, I say Male Bovine Fecal Matter! If the game was all about 1:1 fights you might be right. If you only want duels instead of Sith versus Republic, I see your point. In an MMO, striving for 1:1 balance has caused more pain and anguish and fights on forums than anything else. Even politics... This class needs a nerf... This one is too weak... blah blah... Sure one on one battles between classes will be rare, but you aren't thinking in terms of thousands of players playing a game together. Using the strengths each person has in a group to overcome difficulties.

I've seen what happens when you get all classes relatively equal when there's a class like Jedi... You get full groups of Jedi doing everything and smuggler/spies/officers/medics/commandos get shoved aside for the favored Jedi and BH which are always bickering about how the other one is overpowered, and then complaining when they get nerfed then back to overpowered.... Meanwhile you get 4 years where the other classes are nearly untouched....
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Old 09-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #146
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Well, why not have Jedi be really good at 1 thing, and suck at everything else?

For example, resto druids in WoW literally take a month to kill, they use Heals-over-time and their form changing abilities to survive. It literally will take an entire team to take just one down.

The thing is though, they outlast their enemies to death, they don't do any damage at all, they rely on others to take out other players while everyones distracted with the druid.

Why not make Jedi similar? Give them the ability to deflect blaster bolts, and heal themselves, but give them a very small damage output to counter that.

It would work in a PvP sense if the Jedi player has alot of patience and teamwork, and it would make a great PvE class to play too, taking on the role of the tank.

On the otherhand, you could have a Sith player as the total opposite, and extremely high damage output, but a very low defense and health, much like the combat specced rogue class in WoW.

Just my thoughts on that side ,sorry for comparing everything to WoW :P


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Old 09-03-2008, 06:04 PM   #147
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I like the idea of limiting the number of jedi on servers.

I like the idea that you an start off as a soldier or smuggler,..etc. You are force sensative and during your player's growth you can awaken it more which will lead to you deciding to seek out the Jedi or the Sith.
If you have a well established bounty hunter....it will cause you to question wither to go down the path of Jedi/Sith or stay the bounty hunter.

I have no problem with soldiers being able to kill a Jedi or Sith.
I feel that many of the players who call themselves Jedi are not equal to the ones in the movies.

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Old 09-04-2008, 02:50 AM   #148
RedHawke
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
It doesn't have to be.
Yes, yes it does, in an MMO especially since retaining subscribers is paramount.

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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
I read the other week about a group of FFO players who spent 18 hours trying to defeat a monster that couldn't be killed.

But that's an extreme example.
Sounds like bored players to me! There are quests like this in DDO, and we know of them well. On a normal difficulty spider named Whisperdoom (she can't be killed) in the fourth quest of the Tangleroot quest chain (level4 quest), six 16th level characters beating oh her and she still lives. We'll get you someday Whisperdoom!

We do it for fun every time the level cap goes up.

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I'm all for fairness and playability, but not at the expense of the story and lore.
It would seem (from my experiences on the DDO forums at least) that a large amount of that particular games players would disagree with you on this.

Since we are talking about a 'game' here, and you mention this as well... playability is also important like balance, the average player will grow frustrated and quit if too much of the story and lore gets in the way of their ability to play the game. So it is something that needs to be balanced and fair to all.


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Old 09-04-2008, 12:56 PM   #149
mattig89ch
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Honestly, I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for a KOTOR MMO.

But if I were too, this is what I think would be good.

have jedi and soilders as equals in combat. That said, you should have a very small amount of force points for force moves (this encompasses Jedi and Sith). Also, don't make Jedi as a starter class. if you want it, you should have to work for it. This'll help to turn the crapy players, who just want to go and kill everyone, away. I also think that there should be a limited number of classes.

Smuggler/trader (one in the same, you should be able to level up skills that would make you proficient in either one or both)
Soldier
Scout/Scoundrel (one should be able to train skills to make him/her good in one or the other)
Manufacturer

In each of these classes you should be able to level up skills.

Personally I would make the amount of force sensitive a random number of those who sign up (say 10%). I know alot of you will disagree with me about this last part, but these are my opinions nothing more.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:32 PM   #150
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Personally I would make the amount of force sensitive a random number of those who sign up (say 10%). I know alot of you will disagree with me about this last part, but these are my opinions nothing more.

I like that idea, only there would be a mass rush of people creating and deleting characters to get their Jedi character (s). Great idea, in theory, but in practice that "OMG I WANT I WANT" aspect kicks in.


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Old 09-05-2008, 04:35 AM   #151
Master Zionosis
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Personally I would make the amount of force sensitive a random number of those who sign up (say 10%). I know alot of you will disagree with me about this last part, but these are my opinions nothing more.
That's an extremely bad idea. My evidence to back it up... At the moment, we don't know how the servers are going to be handled. Nor how the game will be released.

Assuming they will go the wow route and create Europe and US servers etc. There are many countries in Europe, most in different time zones, the launch time for the game will different for all these countries, which is basically going to mean that players in some country in Europe will go out and buy the game install it, download any patches, play, then make their Jedi, bam, there's your 10% cap.

Then 3 hours later, on the other side of Europe, the shop doors open, players buy the game, get home, install the game, download any patches, play the game, then make your Jedi "Ohh sorry the 10% cap has been reached".

So, a better way to do this, is cap the servers for a % of how many players there are, the more non Jedi that join, the more Jedi will be able to join. To be honest, I don't quite care who doesn't like this idea, I happen to think it's a good idea which will definitely decrease Jedi numbers, but not make them impossible to get and be made. (BTW I want this game)

@mattig89ch: For further reading, look at the first post of this page.

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Old 09-05-2008, 12:19 PM   #152
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If you only "balance" a class by limiting its number you will lose alot of customers and create alot of funny forums threads. If there are like 5% jedi´s only but those can beat the crap out of any mix of classes up to lets say 5 or 6 players quite alot of people will turn their backs to that game. Its no fun when you lose to someone just because he was the lucky guy to get to play the most powerfull class.

And MMO´s are not about what the hardcore player demands lore and balancewise, they are mainly about getting as many subscribers as possible.
And there is no way a company would sacrifice the largest part of their community, the casual gamers, those who never play more than a few hours per week (therefore use up the smallest amount of resources but pay the same amount of money) just because they wanted to stick to the lore
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:33 PM   #153
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I think I'd be in favour of the "everyone's a little Force sensitive, it's up to them what they do with it", maybe make it that it takes a lot of time and quests to become a proper Jedi.

Someone who wants to start as a Jedi would have to spend a few days as a "youngling", restricted to whatever academy they start in and lacking in money and skills when they leave to join the game (e.g. You leave the academy as a level 5 Jedi with nothing but the robes on you back, the level 5 smuggler you meet on your first planet already has a few hundred credits and a custom pistol).

Oh, and I dunno if we're still talking about MMOs with a single player mode, but... Phantasy Star Universe. In the offline you played a set character and followed a story, in the online you created a character, formed parties, quested, hunted for rares, etc.
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