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Old 09-02-2008, 12:10 PM   #1
rictus135
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The True Sith Great Debate

There has been a lot of talk of the True Sith since TSL, but little in the way of actual evidence to support one theory or the other. This is a debate that started in another thread that I decided to begin properly here.

This is what youve missed so far, beginning whith my opinion:


It is a common misconception that the "True Sith" are actually a race. They are sith who have been trained by the Sith Masters that escaped Korriban and their apprentices, in an unbroken line since the Great Hyperspace war. Revan and Malak were not "True Sith" because they were not trained by Sith. All of the knowledge gained from holocrons etc. doesn't change the fact that they and all their subsequent followers were not trained by "True Sith".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikmin View Post
Originally Posted by Wookiepedia Article about the True Sith
More recently, it was discovered that, after the Sith King Adas died while driving the Rakata from Korriban in 27,700 BBY, the Sith species possessed the technology to relocate themselves to nearby Ziost. It is therefore possible that some Sith from this era became the "True Sith," taking up residence out in the Unknown Regions, and eventually constructing the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.
The Sith were a species, when the renegade jedi landed on Korriban, the race became intermingled with these dark jedi and together they created the Sith cult. Anyone could be inducted into this new cult if they showed potential.

It also says that "it is therefore possible" this is not proof, merely another hypothesis on faulty information. If you listen carefully to the dialog in game (and with an open mind, which I admit is not easy once you have formed an opinion) you will see that there is no indication that the True Sith are a race. They are simply the product of specific teachings, not the immitation Sith of Revan and Traya etc.

The True Siths origins as a race and not a people, happened on these very forums! Not in the games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke View Post
Incorrect... the Sith Race discussions pre-date these forums by quite a bit (late 1980's and early 1990's) at many a Sci-fi/Comic/RPG game convention.
Again, you are confusing the Sith race with the True Sith.

The Sith race lived on Korriban long before the Sith Cult rose as a threat to the Jedi and galaxy at large.
During the Unification Wars, the Jedi outlawed Darkside practices, leading to the Second Great Schism thousands of years later in which Jedi and Dark Jedi battled for dominance. The Dark Jedi were defeated and exiled, eventually settling on Korriban the home of the Sith Race. The Dark Jedi interbred with the Sith and adopted their religion. This is the origin of the Sith Empire, and also the origin of the Sith Order or Sith Cult


The above is all canon, not my guesswork or the guesswork of others. So the Sith Race has been around for a long time, but the True Sith were first theorized to be a race on these forums.

So far there is no canonical definition of the True Sith. But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.


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Old 09-02-2008, 12:40 PM   #2
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*Sithy(aka El Sitherino) walks in, looks around, shrugs and leaves*

This topic has been roasted, toasted and healthily digested at the EU forum. We are more than equipped to sort out any canon gripes !

Longstoryshort...... apart from what is mentioned about Bane in the TPM Novelisation(G level canon), everything falls in C-level(games, comics etc) or below.

For fans of sith lore, I recommend the Darth Bane duology(books)..... tis a shame they cancelled the planned novels about Sidious origins and Plagueis

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Old 09-02-2008, 01:02 PM   #3
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I don't see why you couldn't have made these points in the existing thread, but never mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus
The Sith were a species, when the renegade jedi landed on Korriban, the race became intermingled with these dark jedi and together they created the Sith cult. Anyone could be inducted into this new cult if they showed potential.
This is already known to most people. What's your point in telling us, exactly?



Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus
If you listen carefully to the dialog in game (and with an open mind, which I admit is not easy once you have formed an opinion) you will see that there is no indication that the True Sith are a race.
Just as there is no indication that they are anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus
It also says that "it is therefore possible" this is not proof, merely another hypothesis on faulty information.
Anyone could say the same about your hypothesis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus
But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.
That's just confusing. It seems like you've set out to prove that the True Sith aren't a race, but then you seem to state that it's more likely they are a race.

Correct me if i'm wrong in my interpretations.






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Old 09-02-2008, 05:43 PM   #4
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What is this and why is it in Ahto?


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Old 09-02-2008, 05:47 PM   #5
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This seems to be a True Sith debate topic in which case it might be interesting...

But, why is it in Ahoto? Shouldn't it be in Republic News feed or Telos bureau?


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Old 09-02-2008, 05:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino View Post
What is this and why is it in Ahto?
Rictus has decided to respond to a thread in the K3 speculation boards by creating a thread here.

I don't see why it couldn't have been said in the existing thread, but it really should be moved to wherever it is better suited.






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Old 09-03-2008, 04:47 AM   #7
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I'm not a fan of TSL, and I've long been disgruntled by the "True Sith" crap, But my problem is not with what there origins have been theorized to be, my problem is that there called TRUE Sith, I feel no need to retcon all my favorite bad guys into pretenders and Holocron thief's.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:41 AM   #8
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lolz....this really belongs in the EU forum, but it seems Telos is the place for discussion that goes in circles...so carry on !



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Old 09-03-2008, 08:48 AM   #9
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There was a mention in Jedi vs. Sith where Ajunta Pall said in the Telos Holocron that a number of Sith Lords together with some other Sith/Massassi, having learned the Sith Alchemy, used the ship the dark Jedi came with to return into hyperspace to take the fight back to the Jedi, despite Ajunta's warning. Ajunta noted, however, that because no one ever visited Korriban afterwards, the Sith Lords must have failed in finding the Jedi or not having told the location of the Sith homeworld.

These Sith could've made their home somewhere else, laying dormant for thousands of years. This doesn't stroke with Kreia's comment that the true Sith came before the ancient Sith Empire, however.
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135 View Post
The True Siths origins as a race and not a people, happened on these very forums! Not in the games.
Uh? Ok then... explain to me the abundant number of quite geeky and zeitgeist-filled conversations I had as a teenager with many others in the plethora of conventions I went to in the late 80's on this topic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135 View Post
Again, you are confusing the Sith race with the True Sith.
No I am not, and I would thank you for not making assumptions (bad ones at that) when I have informed you otherwise in my statement.

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Originally Posted by rictus135 View Post
The Sith race lived on Korriban long before the Sith Cult rose as a threat to the Jedi and galaxy at large.
During the Unification Wars, the Jedi outlawed Darkside practices, leading to the Second Great Schism thousands of years later in which Jedi and Dark Jedi battled for dominance. The Dark Jedi were defeated and exiled, eventually settling on Korriban the home of the Sith Race. The Dark Jedi interbred with the Sith and adopted their religion. This is the origin of the Sith Empire, and also the origin of the Sith Order or Sith Cult


The above is all canon, not my guesswork or the guesswork of others. So the Sith Race has been around for a long time, but the True Sith were first theorized to be a race on these forums.

So far there is no canonical definition of the True Sith. But I believe there is very evidence to point to them being a race, and a great deal of (circumstantial) evidence to indicating they are the members of the original Sith Cult.
Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.

And this all has absolutely nothing to do with what I told you or the point I was making.

Sorry, but the True Sith/Sith Race/True Sith Race was an idea that that did not originate here on these forums, unless Lucasforums was around RPG, sci-fi, and comic conventions in 1987-88?


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Old 09-04-2008, 10:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.

Request: Forgive me if I don't have the slightest idea what this statement is supposed to mean.


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Old 09-04-2008, 04:24 PM   #12
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I could write a book on this, but here is a brief overview of what I think the "true Sith" are (though I doubt this was is what Kreia had in mind):

The Sith (species) that the Exiles came upon and lorded over in 6,900 BBY were said to be a primitive race, knowing little about the cosmos and worshiping natural phenomena as deities (thus why they were so quick to honor the conquering Dark Jedi as gods). But it is said that in 28,000 BBY, Sith king Adas of Korriban defeated the Rakata and relocated his people to the nearby planet Ziost, suggesting that they were accustomed to space travel at the time. How then are they a primitive people by the time the Exiles come around?

I believe that at some point either Adas himself or one of his successors must have observed a drastic difference in the Sith people: some were modernists while other held onto their archaic ways. Believing the latter group to have been weak and unworthy, the modernist Sith abandoned Ziost and the school of Sith who were behind the times, and set off to build an empire elsewhere, eventually coming upon the Unknown Regions and building the Trayus Academy on Malachor V.

So we have a rift in the Sith race: those modernists who set out for the Unknown regions and those who stuck to their old ways. The former group would consider themselves the "true Sith," and the latter group was left to devolve on Ziost, eventually conquered by exiled Dark Jedi who founded the first Sith Empire. All the while the "true Sith" were building an empire of their own in the Unknown Regions, plotting to take over the galaxy when the time was ripe. Revan may have found evidence of their existence during his time as Dark Lord, and these memories may have come flooding back sometime after the events of the first Knights of the Old Republic game. This may have been why he departed for the Unknown Regions: to battle this potential threat to the Republic and the galaxy (or, in continuation the non-canonical dark side ending, to his new Sith Empire).


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Old 09-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHawke View Post
Uh? Ok then... explain to me the abundant number of quite geeky and zeitgeist-filled conversations I had as a teenager with many others in the plethora of conventions I went to in the late 80's on this topic?


No I am not, and I would thank you for not making assumptions (bad ones at that) when I have informed you otherwise in my statement.

And this all has absolutely nothing to do with what I told you or the point I was making.

Sorry, but the True Sith/Sith Race/True Sith Race was an idea that that did not originate here on these forums, unless Lucasforums was around RPG, sci-fi, and comic conventions in 1987-88?
Just to clarify, the term "True Sith" was used, specifically, in the late 80's. If it was anything other than that specific term, we have our wires crossed.

Also I didn't mean to state that the concept of the "True Sith" was created here, but that one particular definition of that term was - at the very least - popularized on these (and the EU) forums as referring to a species of alien.

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Originally Posted by RedHawke View Post
Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap.
You can't argue with canon. The theories of fans are not actual parts of the Star Wars universe no matter how old they are or where they originated. Officially licensed media is. With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.

Finally I may have worded my opening post badly, I didn't mean to say "I am right and you are wrong". All I meant to say was that there is no canonical definition of the term "True Sith", so defining them as a species is wrong, and added my own theory on the matter.

Edit: I would also like to add that I entitled this thread the "Great Sith Great Debate", not "The Truth About The True Sith".


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Old 09-05-2008, 05:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135 View Post
You can't argue with canon. The theories of fans are not actual parts of the Star Wars universe no matter how old they are or where they originated. Officially licensed media is. With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.
That's all well and good, but i'll refer you to your own post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135
All I meant to say was that there is no canonical definition of the term "True Sith"
So, seeing as there's no official ruling on it, we can argue all we like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135
so defining them as a species is wrong, and added my own theory on the matter.
If there's no official decision, defining them as a species is just a valid as your own theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135
I didn't mean to say "I am right and you are wrong".
Maybe not, but you're saying that our non-canonical theories are less valid than your own non-canonical theories.






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Old 09-05-2008, 05:13 PM   #15
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Why do my long-winded theories always go unnoticed in these "true Sith" threads?


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Old 09-05-2008, 05:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram View Post
Why do my long-winded theories always go unnoticed in these "true Sith" threads?
Sorry, Z, I didn't see that you'd posted.

It's an interesting theory, to be sure. A modernist/luddite (to use an alternative meaning) rift would be a plausible way of explaining a Sith species maintaining an Empire, waiting to strike...






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Old 09-05-2008, 05:37 PM   #17
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But isn't the whole Sith taking over the galaxy, Darkside vs Lightside thing a product of the exiled Dark Jedi's influence and lording of the Sith Species? Why would a separate sect of pre Dark Jedi Sith be concerned with the Jedi/Republic?
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:45 PM   #18
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Because the Jedi and Sith organizations do not by any means have a monopoly on the Force, or the light and dark sides. There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.

It is very plausible that this other group of dark side users may have had dreams of galactic conquest. One does not need be associated with fallen Jedi in order to have this goal in mind. Just look at the Yuuzhan Vong, for example.


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Old 09-05-2008, 05:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
So, seeing as there's no official ruling on it, we can argue all we like.
I couldn't agree more. Thats why this is a debate.

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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
If there's no official decision, defining them as a species is just a valid as your own theory.
Again I agree.
I'm not saying people must use my theory as opposed to the species theory, what I am saying is people shouldn't feel they have to subscribe to the most prevalent theory around. They can do whatever they want to do.

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You're saying that our non-canonical theories are less valid than your own non-canonical theories.
I suppose that I am, but I must stress again that this is only intended as my opinion, not an indisputable fact.

There is nothing in the game to indicate the True Sith are a species, but there is a possible connection to the Sith Empire. The true Sith are said to be connected to both Korriban and Malachore V. Since Kreia teaches you of the Sith Lords of the Sith Empire, at the same time as mentioning the True Sith, this would seem to indicate they are connected.
It would also be highly probable that the teachings of the descendants of Adas on Ziost, would be vastly different to the Jedi/Sith hybrid teachings that originated on Korriban. Again there is no indication of such a disparity, the games seems to take it for granted that they are one and the same. This is what I mean by circumstantial evidence supporting my theory.

@Zerimar I did read your post, but had nothing to say about it. I can't disprove it in any way, and I do not think it is any more likely than my own theory. I just let it stand as an alternate theory for people to consider.


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Old 09-05-2008, 05:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
But isn't the whole Sith taking over the galaxy, Darkside vs Lightside thing a product of the exiled Dark Jedi's influence and lording of the Sith Species? Why would a separate sect of pre Dark Jedi Sith be concerned with the Jedi/Republic?
Because, maybe they percieve other life as a threat to their existence and supremacy (the Sith Order, which draws much inspiration from the species, does have some totalitarian leanings, after all).

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I couldn't agree more. Thats why this is a debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135
Again I agree.
I'm glad we agree. If we're going to have a discussion, it should be civilised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rictus135
I'm not saying people must use my theory as opposed to the species theory, what I am saying is people shouldn't feel they have to subscribe to the most prevalent theory around. They can do whatever they want to do.
Agreed. We all have our own theories, and they're all as valid as each other.

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Originally Posted by rictus135
I suppose that I am, but I must stress again that this is only intended as my opinion, not an indisputable fact.
Just the same with mine.

And it wouldn't surprise me if the Sith Lords and the True Sith are in some way connected with each other. But I guess we shall have to wait and see what form that connection will take.






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Old 09-06-2008, 12:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram View Post
Because the Jedi and Sith organizations do not by any means have a monopoly on the Force, or the light and dark sides. There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.

It is very plausible that this other group of dark side users may have had dreams of galactic conquest. One does not need be associated with fallen Jedi in order to have this goal in mind. Just look at the Yuuzhan Vong, for example.
I completely agree, and I'm well versed in Galactic history thank you, I just think that some folks theorize about the possible True Sith having the same goals and beef with Jedi as the the post Dark Jedi Sith, which if turns out to be true, is a bit lazy IMO, lets have them do somthin else lol
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
There are numerous Force religions and philosophies in the Star Wars galaxy of both light and dark standing.
True, but almost all of those organizations are limited to very small areas of the galaxy, and are nowhere near as prominent as the Jedi (or Sith, depending on the timeline).


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Old 09-06-2008, 04:57 PM   #23
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Well, perhaps this is one prominent group that no one knows about. If Kreia's words are meant to be taken literally, they are running an entire empire in secret.

But I agree with what adamqd is saying: this group of Sith should not have some sort of vendetta against the Jedi or the Republic. If my theory stated about is correct, then such a vendetta would not be logical as these Sith departed from Ziost to build their empire before the Republic and Jedi Order even existed.

Perhaps their qualm is actually with the other Sith? Now that would be interesting. If they see the other Sith (i.e the Dark Jedi Sith) as somehow a continuation of the weaklings they abandoned on Ziost, believing them to be unworthy of being Sith; and they view the current Sith as somehow connected to or a continuation of those "weaklings" back on Ziost who now dare to attempt galactic domination and act as if they know everything there is to know about the dark side of the Force; perhaps these "true Sith" believe that these heretics need to be destroyed. And perhaps Revan saw the coming clash between these two Sith groups as a major threat to the Republic sitting in the middle, which was why he went to eliminate the threat before it had a chance to strike.


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Old 09-06-2008, 08:13 PM   #24
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This is another thing that could point to my theory being true.


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Old 09-06-2008, 09:41 PM   #25
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Definitely!

Unfortunately for us, though, every time we post theories, if it turns out that LucasArts had anything remotely similar planned they have to scrap it for fear of lawsuits. So basically none of our theories would ever be true.


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Old 09-06-2008, 09:49 PM   #26
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Oh yeah: Also, the theory I posted is merely just the latest in my many theories on the subject. I also have one that is nearly identical to yours, suggesting that there needs to be an unbroken line of "true" Sith succession, and that the Sith of Darth Ruin's and Darth bane's orders, as well as Palpatine and his apprentices from the films, are a continuation of this line and not Revan's. But they still hold Revan as an honorary Sith since he had such a profound impact on the Rule of Two philosophy; in much the same way that the Sith hold Xendor as an honorary Dark Lord, even though he was in no way connected to their line of succession.

This other theory I'm mentioning now has two variants: one that branches off from the Sith who abandoned Korriban following the Great Hyperspace War, as you said, and one that connects them directly to Xendor and the Legions of Lettow, and not actually affiliated with the Exiles of 6,900 BBY at all.

So there you go: two very different theories from me regarding the "true Sith," one with two variants. I'm pretty sure I've got a few more as well, but I'll have to think of them. (I believe I posted them in the previous thread on the subject.)


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Old 09-07-2008, 03:33 PM   #27
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I feel no need to retcon all my favorite bad guys into pretenders and Holocron thief's.
QFT

What does it really matter? Sith use the DS. Jedi use the LS. End of topic!


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Old 09-08-2008, 01:36 AM   #28
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Just to clarify, the term "True Sith" was used, specifically, in the late 80's. If it was anything other than that specific term, we have our wires crossed.
There is something crossed here... They were consistently referred to as some sort of mysterious elder race... True Sith, The True Sith Race, etc.

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Also I didn't mean to state that the concept of the "True Sith" was created here, but that one particular definition of that term was - at the very least - popularized on these (and the EU) forums as referring to a species of alien.
This is a Star Wars fan forum... so it being discussed here and promoted here is to be expected. But you indeed made some blanket statements/assumptions.

I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in.

But I do wish to make one final point...

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With all due respect, try to keep your ego in check.
So you felt a need to slip in a small snide personal remark because you don't like what I have said here?

You need to deal with the topic, if you feel a need to analyze the poster like you did then you need to re-think why you are posting at all... and yes it was indeed your intention to take a personal 'jab' at me with this remark. Personal observations/attacks are never a good thing to do in a discussion.


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Old 09-08-2008, 06:03 PM   #29
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Caution... This is new information provided by a very new book. Caution...

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Darth Revan, Prodigal Knight
Pg. 154

spoiler:
... He strikes out for the Rim alone, searching for what he believes is the true Sith menace.
spoiler:
...true Sith menace. Word capitalization may be important here. Using the lowercase letter changes the proper noun. Could the true Sith menace be referring to just another faction? Could the word true be referencing a stronger and more powerful group of Sith? Sith during the Dark Wars were fractured into smaller groups. Could Revan be referring to a more united and stronger faction of Sith in the Outer Rim? There may not be a True Sith species after all.

We may be looking at another group of Sith, but they are more united and stronger. Revan could have evaluated between two Sith threats, and had decided to go after the more powerful faction. We will have to wait and see.

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Old 09-08-2008, 07:27 PM   #30
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I think drawing conclusions based on capitalization of a single word comes a little too close to splitting hairs.


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Old 09-08-2008, 07:51 PM   #31
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Especially considering that the word "true" was not capitalized in Kreia's monologue in the game. Capitalization of the word "true" so that "True Sith" is the actual name of this enigmatic people is completely fanon.


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Old 09-08-2008, 08:13 PM   #32
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I think drawing conclusions based on capitalization of a single word comes a little too close to splitting hairs.
Ask your english teacher if it matters. I bet you it does. We need to dig into the game's dialog. Do the characters use an uppercase or lowercase for the word true?

I don't have The Sith Lords installed, so someone will have to look it up. Zerimar?

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Old 09-08-2008, 08:32 PM   #33
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So you felt a need to slip in a small snide personal remark because you don't like what I have said here?

You need to deal with the topic, if you feel a need to analyze the poster like you did then you need to re-think why you are posting at all... and yes it was indeed your intention to take a personal 'jab' at me with this remark. Personal observations/attacks are never a good thing to do in a discussion.
I meant it more as a cautionary remark than personal jab. You seemed to be saying that canon should take a backseat to your own opinion.
I don't think it is appropriate to disregard canon, and stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums seems like a much worse idea than a snide remark. To be perfectly frank, I still believe my comment is quite reasonable.


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Old 09-08-2008, 09:37 PM   #34
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Caution... This is new information provided by a very new book. Caution...

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Darth Traya, Lord of Betrayal
Pg. 158

CONFLICT FOUND.

spoiler:
...Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pureblooded descendants of the Sith people.
spoiler:
We have a conflict with the meaning of true Sith. Revan is looking for the true Sith menace. Kreia studied from books in which she believed were written by the pureblooded descendants of the Sith people. Could this be the original Korriban descendants?

I think we are all correct in some weird way. We need more input. More data please.

Calling Lucas now.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:17 PM   #35
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I don't have The Sith Lords installed, so someone will have to look it up. Zerimar?
I have it installed, but I can't be bothered to play through the entire game just to get to the ending so I can confirm this. Especially not with The Force Unleashed coming out in eight days. But I am one hundred percent certain that I saw it without the word "true" capitalized.

Try YouTube?

Edit: I've found it. Pause the video at 4:37 and, squinting, you can see that the word "true" is indeed in all lower cases. It's a little hard to see, but I was correct.

Edit 2: Why are we forbidden from embedding YouTube videos on these forums? In any case, here's the link to the video.




Interesting information, Yar-El. I wonder how soon this information will be up at Wookieepedia?


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Old 09-09-2008, 03:06 AM   #36
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I meant it more as a cautionary remark than personal jab.
Well you sure have a weird way of doing it then... for what you wrote was a personal jab and nowhere near a "cautionary remark".

You simply felt a need to 'chastise' me for what I posted because you didn't like it, simple as that. That is where you went wrong... your 'cautionary remark' was out of line.

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You seemed to be saying that canon should take a backseat to your own opinion.
The operative word is "seemed" here... you once again are making bad assumptions. So instead of asking for clarification from me, which is far more friendly and is what a 'discussion' is, you chose instead to make a personal attack because you didn't like what I wrote.

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I don't think it is appropriate to disregard canon, and stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums seems like a much worse idea than a snide remark.
Snide remarks are a form of flaming so keep those to yourself... that's was my point. Deal with the topic not the poster... simple as that.

Also I never did post anything about "stating that contents of LucasArts licensed material are invalid on the LucasForums"... once again it seems you got your "wires crossed".

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To be perfectly frank, I still believe my comment is quite reasonable.
I disagree. Add to this you offered me no apology here proves to me you were indeed taking a shot at me.


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:49 AM   #37
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I have it installed, but I can't be bothered to play through the entire game just to get to the ending so I can confirm this. Especially not with The Force Unleashed coming out in eight days. But I am one hundred percent certain that I saw it without the word "true" capitalized.

Try YouTube?

Edit: I've found it. Pause the video at 4:37 and, squinting, you can see that the word "true" is indeed in all lower cases. It's a little hard to see, but I was correct.

Edit 2: Why are we forbidden from embedding YouTube videos on these forums? In any case, here's the link to the video.

Interesting information, Yar-El. I wonder how soon this information will be up at Wookieepedia?
I didn't think about using YouTube.
I did see a lowercase t on the word true. YouTube resolution stinks at times. I'm going to keep reading. Maybe another character's background information has another clue.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:33 PM   #38
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Very well, I will avoid directing remarks towards the poster from now on.

Comments such as "Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap. "
And "I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in."
Show you are clearly NOT interested in discussing the subject of canon. Had your comments been more constructive, or more clearly defining your view of the matter I would never have directed any comment towards you instead of your post.
I am interested in everyones views, both conflicting and assertive. I am also open to criticism. I felt your comments were not directed towards me and my opinion, but at Star Wars canon, which I have always taken to be the "truth" as far as the Star Wars Universe goes.

@Yar-El
I used a cappitalized "true" due to the significance put on the word by the community.

As to the information provided in those quotes from the book, I can only say that without greater context it does not necassarily point away from my theory. I had always suspected that the threat Revan saw was the threat of a faction of true Sith, due in part to Canderous saying it was the Sith who came to the Mandalorians with to suggest war with the republic. Since Exar Kun was defeated some 20 or so years prior to this, it seemed apparent that another Sith threat existed.
As to your second quote, it all really depends on whether these writings were directly related to Revans search, or whether it was a result of her own search, that may have taken a seperate branch to Revans. If it is directly related to Revans search, than it seems more likely the true/True Sith are a species after all, not the Cult.


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Old 09-10-2008, 01:48 AM   #39
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@RedHawke

Comments such as "Oy! Here we go again... canon... that mysterious thing that gives people the authoritah to tell others they don't know crap. "
And "I will ignore the 'canon' debate... as they are fruitless to participate in."
Show you are clearly NOT interested in discussing the subject of canon.
My post you were quoting has nothing to do with canon... even remotely. Neither did the conversation it came from really.

And yes canon debates are fruitless... and many end up closed or heated with many ruffled feathers.

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Had your comments been more constructive, or more clearly defining your view of the matter I would never have directed any comment towards you instead of your post.
There is no reasonable way you should ever direct rude comments like that to another poster. There is nothing remotely justifiable in what you did... period.

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I am interested in everyones views, both conflicting and assertive. I am also open to criticism.
Your reactions towards me here clearly state otherwise.

Edit: But enough of this, back on topic folks...


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Old 09-10-2008, 04:35 PM   #40
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I had always assumed that the Sith who goaded the Mandalorians into attacking the Republic were the remnants of Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith, existing as a small community mainly on Korriban. (Wookieepedia was under this impression for a while, mentioning in one of their articles -- I forget which -- that Revan and Malak came upon the remnants of this clan at the Academy on Korriban.) I believe that Revan and Malak, in order to be true Sith Lords (and I don't mean "true" as in the same sense as the enigmatic"true Sith," I mean "true" as in of the unbroken line of Sith succession), they had to be ordained by the Sith on Korriban. (One must be ordained by a Sith Lord of the unbroken line of succession from the Dark Jedi Exiles, as we see Anakin ordained by Darth Sidious in Revenge of the Sith.) But, being the fearless leaders of this massive Dark Jedi fleet, they would not compromise their pride and image of superiority by succumbing to long years of training at the hands of the Academy's Masters. Instead, I would say that they most likely acquired all of their Sith knowledge, philosophy and discipline from scouring Korriban and studying various artifacts for themselves -- holocrons and the like -- and once they were strong enough in the dark arts, they invaded the Sith Academy and conquered it, forcing the Academy's Master's hand in their ordination to the Sith. Now Sith, they were free to rise up against the Master of the Academy (perhaps this was Jorak Uln), declared themselves Sith Lords, and then mass-ordained their entire Dark Jedi army to the Sith.

They needed to be of the unbroken line of succession, obtaining ordination from Exar Kun's lineage, who in turn was ordained by the spirit of Marka Ragnos, if you'll recall.

So, in a nutshell, I believe that the Sith Canderous was referring to was what remained of Exar Kun's Sith, before Revan, and not the mysterious "true Sith."

Also, if you think about it, Revan, Malak and their followers would have been like a second group of Dark Jedi conquerors who subjected the Sith to their rule, provided my theory is correct. History repeats itself. I just hope the comic series doesn't prove me wrong.


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