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Old 10-11-2008, 09:06 AM   #41
SD Nihil
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While things are being looked into, giving names would not be prodent at this time. And the mods having fun yes when we are comfortable aroud them. When we feel they haven't been biased in our eyes. Not all are bad as Tomycat has said. Individuals who we do not wish to name at this time.

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Can you honestly say that a mod with Conservative beliefs wouldn't be biased?
Yes they can. But that is why their decision making should be objective and free of political motivation. Can you say that a liberal can't be biased. Same question you asked me.


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Old 10-11-2008, 09:54 AM   #42
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With the rules set up the way they are, it's pretty easy to determine if a rule's been broken or not--flaming, porn, and swearing are the big bad uglies that will get people in trouble, and those are obvious to pretty much anyone.
If it were any other forum, I'd agree without question. However, since Kavar's hosts serious and mature topics, that are presumably discussed by people mature enough to understand them, don't you think that in that kind of environment it can sometimes be difficult to ascertain whether a person insulted another person, or just challenged their way of thinking? What I'm trying to say is that most people who participate in Kavar's formulate their posts in a very intelligent manner and sometimes things they posted may be interpreted as a personal insult, while they are in fact more of an outraged reaction to someone's way of thinking. Vice versa may also apply, in my opinion - someone may have insulted another participant, but it may be interpreted as an outraged reaction to their way of thinking.
That's the only reason why I think it might be better that a mod who hasn't participated in a certain discussion be the one who very very carefully monitors and moderates that thread.

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If the person who I'm discussing with specifically in a back-and-forth exchange is the one committing the infraction, I ask another moderator to evaluate it instead so there's no accusation of bias.
I think that's a very smart and objective move.

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Understand that people don't like getting infracted/warned/banned, and it's not uncommon to get complaints about bias in those situations.
Very understandable. Nobody likes to be told that they're not acting properly and sometimes people don't even see why something they did was improper. I personally pride myself on never getting a single warning (except maybe one about double posting, or something like that back when I was still a newb) and I'm very careful in keeping it that way.
My advice to other members regarding flaming would be this: No matter how angry somebody's attitude makes you, think before you decide to call that person names, because I know if you think about it, you'll come to the conclusion that there's absolutely nothing to accomplish by insulting someone. What I'd rather do is try to prove them wrong, or show that their way of thinking is not the right way of thinking with appropriate arguments.

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Old 10-11-2008, 10:01 AM   #43
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Yes they can. But that is why their decision making should be objective and free of political motivation. Can you say that a liberal can't be biased. Same question you asked me.
I've already said that they sometimes let their personal feelings get in the way, but as Jae has said, she often gets another Moderator to look at something in a thread she is participating in.

My point is that appointing more mods probably won't help - because then we'd just get the mods arguing amongst themselves, without actually getting anything done.






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Old 10-11-2008, 11:43 AM   #44
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As I said situations are being looked into right now concerning each conservative's complaints. So there are threads like this trying to come up with a solution. But there are things going on behind the scenes right now.And it's not smart during an investigation to devulge info just yet.


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Old 10-11-2008, 11:49 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SD Nihil View Post
As I said situations are being looked into right now concerning each conservative's complaints. So there are threads like this trying to come up with a solution. But there are things going on behind the scenes right now.And it's not smart during an investigation to devulge info just yet.
With all possible respect, SD, the only problem that you've mentioned is bias. Besides the disproportionate amount of conservatives to liberals in Kavar's, please inform me what's so wrong. These cryptic warnings are doing nothing (at least for me) other than giving (me) the feeling that something's happening that you're not telling us. I'd appreciate it greatly if you would give (us?) a glimpse as to what this "investigation" is about.

Thanks a bunch.
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Old 10-11-2008, 11:52 AM   #46
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Also, I don't like this whole 'Them' and 'Us' situation that has arisen... it's absurd, and pretty silly.

While I may agree with most liberals on one thing, I may agree with conservatives on another matter - no one here is set firmly into one group.

I think that what J7 and Jae have said about people who have been moderated feel that they are the victim of bias is a bit extreme- every instance i've seen of moderating here has been fully justified - and it happens to both sides - not just one side - as far as I have seen, when someone has been out of line, then they have had action taken against them.

The only problem is that people often have differing views of what is acceptable.






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Old 10-11-2008, 12:14 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Nihil
And it's not smart during an investigation to devulge info just yet.
I doubt that the mods will ever divulge information which is not directly related to you:/ Every member has a right to privacy!

As mentioned way waaaay back in thread, I agree with thread splitting. I may not be the most organized person, but leaving something with the wrong title (especially if it seemed like a potential source of info!) makes me sad :P



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Old 10-11-2008, 12:22 PM   #48
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So far no one has proven any unethical actions by moderators, but yet I keep hearing it.

Curious.


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Old 10-11-2008, 12:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Litofsky View Post
With all possible respect, SD, the only problem that you've mentioned is bias. Besides the disproportionate amount of conservatives to liberals in Kavar's, please inform me what's so wrong. These cryptic warnings are doing nothing (at least for me) other than giving (me) the feeling that something's happening that you're not telling us. I'd appreciate it greatly if you would give (us?) a glimpse as to what this "investigation" is about.
Thanks a bunch,
Litofsky
I'm going to jump in here. If I'm reading SD's posts correctly, I believe he is refering to how the forums are moderated. We have visitors who are liberal, but we also have a high number of moderators that are liberal. There is an inbalance of moderation based upon post edits, deletions, and so forth. Are the moderators editing conservative posts more so than liberals? Are the moderators fueled by emotions, and do they act upon those emotions with bans, editting, or closures?

I didn't want to be involved with this type of isssue, and behind the scenes I tried to distance myself from the problem. Sorry for repeating myself again (for those of you who have read my posts), but this is how I see what is going down.

Everyone who visits, moderates, and posts on these boards are genuinely good folk. We may have different stances on issues, but overall everyone converses in a respectable manner. Religion and politics can be approached by two angles. Conservative and liberal beliefs on both issues sometimes conflict, and at times it can get down right ugly. How does someone moderate a forum where two sides believe they are right? I don't know, and I don't think any of the moderators know. That is why these threads are open. They need our help, and we need their help. Everyone who visits or volunteers on this forum has an agenda, which is based upon a personal and unique perspective. Most of what we bring with us is derived from the world around us. We can have rules that stretch as far as Atlantis, but they will not stop how people view the world. Being a noobie to these forums gives me a unique perception. I see all of these awsome and unique worlds interacting. Outside of these forum walls, the actual world is in chaotic flux. People argue over parking spaces, taxes, oil, and the right time of day. However, here at LucaForums we converse on a level that our leaders can't. We use these threads to find differences and similarities in how another person preceives the human race. I don't think there is any real way to moderate these forums without affecting someone. Regardless about what changes are put in place, there is allways going to be a group that disagrees. If you sum this whole thing up, we are not Democrats or Republicans. We are human beings with feelings, opinions, and voices.

Entering these forums should be the disrobbing of division. Respect, patience, and tolerance should be exercised. My beliefs are true to me, and your beliefs are true to you. I'm not going to tell you that your wrong. All I'm going to ask is that everyone should approach these topics with knowing we are all unique.

I come here for the entertaining nature of LucasArts' products, and I want to share something that I know others also like.

What is everyone? Are you a healer? Are you a divider? Its your choice.

Last edited by Yar-El; 10-11-2008 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Grammar fixing and clearity. I had some run-ons and such. It ticked me off.
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
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My point is that appointing more mods probably won't help - because then we'd just get the mods arguing amongst themselves, without actually getting anything done.
We actually talk a lot among ouselves in mod forum and in IM--some of the staff I talk to on a daily or near daily basis, so if there's something borderline, more than a few times I've talked to them and said 'what do you think?' before taking or not taking action. There's quite a bit more chatting behind the scenes than most people realize.

One thing I''d also like to say is that when we give an infraction, it doesn't mean we hate someone's guts or necessarily hate the idea that person is talking about. It just means we've found a post that violates the rules and the specific posting behavior needs to be corrected. We know people are going to have bad days, and we mods are going to have good and bad days like everyone else. It's hard not to take an infraction personally, but it's nearly always nothing more than a corrective action to maintain good quality rather than punitive or spiteful.


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Old 10-11-2008, 12:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Sitherino View Post
So far no one has proven any unethical actions by moderators, but yet I keep hearing it.

Curious.
One could argue that seeing as you are a moderator, you wouldn't see any...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El
I'm going to jump in here. If I'm reading SD's posts correctly, I believe he is refering to how the forums are moderated. We have visitors who are liberal, but we also have a high number of moderators that are liberal. There is an inbalance of moderation based upon post edits, deletions, and so forth. Are the moderators editing conservative posts more so than liberals? Are the moderators fueled by emotions, and do they act upon those emotions with bans, editting, or closures?
As i've said, a moderators personal feelings, be it political, moral or religious shouldn't (and haven't, as far as I have seen) enter in to things - people may feel sore over being moderated however, and I think that this is a contributing factor.






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Old 10-11-2008, 12:30 PM   #52
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I'd like to note for the record, I've infracted more liberals than conservatives. Mostly because I'm too lazy to infract.
I tell the others about problem posts and they tend to infract, I wait for the bans.


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Old 10-11-2008, 12:40 PM   #53
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I'd like to just say, as a liberal who's been infracted for times when I was clearly out of line, the mods are definitely not infraction people based on political affiliation, but for clear rules violations.

If you don't think you've broken the rules, re-read them before you get upset. They apply to everyone, so it's good to know them.


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Old 10-11-2008, 01:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by stoffe View Post
~snip
As I mentioned earlier I doubt anyone with no interest in the topics would want to spend spend hours carefully reading through hundreds of long posts in their spare time just to ensure they conform to the forum rules. Moderators here tend to be people who are particularly active in the forum section they get assigned as moderator in. If being made a moderator means you aren't allowed to participate any more, who would want to accept such a position?
Well, if a person was someone who would merely like to help out, then I doubt there would be much of an issue.

Reading through other peoples posts on a topic that you may not normally have interest in may actually help develop an interest and/or an opinion in the topics.




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Old 10-11-2008, 01:11 PM   #55
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Well, if a person was someone who would merely like to help out, then I doubt there would be much of an issue.

Reading through other peoples posts on a topic that you may not normally have interest in may actually help develop an interest and/or an opinion in the topics.
But then, as one's opinion develops, they would be subject to the very same allegations of 'bias' that we're discussing now.






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Old 10-11-2008, 01:31 PM   #56
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But then, as one's opinion develops, they would be subject to the very same allegations of 'bias' that we're discussing now.
Exactly, as humans, we're bound to have opinions on everything, and whats the saying? Opinions are like asses and everyone's stinks.

So obviously the solution is robots. Robots neither have asses nor opinions.

Whats the ETA on Skynet again?


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Old 10-11-2008, 01:33 PM   #57
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Quote:
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If being made a moderator means you aren't allowed to participate any more, who would want to accept such a position?
Agreed. If someone's willing to become a mod, it doesn't mean they're willing to stop being ordinary members. Nobody wants to be a member of a forum just because he's supposed to do a job, people also want to be able contribute to various topics.

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Old 10-11-2008, 01:35 PM   #58
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But then, as one's opinion develops, they would be subject to the very same allegations of 'bias' that we're discussing now.
Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe it wouldn't lead to developing an opinion.

In fact, now that I think on it, the possibility of developing one solely based on the arguements of others does seem kinda unlikely..

Still, regardless of the "possibility" I think getting a mod with no political/religious biases might be something worth looking into.




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Old 10-11-2008, 01:50 PM   #59
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Except we have mods very much like that and people still complain about persecution.

Let's face it, no one is going to be happy with infractions being given. And as they only see what happens on their side, they'll complain about bias. We've had this discussion many times before. The only reason this thread was even made was because there were feelings that moderators weren't doing their job. So perhaps we'll just tighten the reigns on everyone.


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Old 10-11-2008, 01:53 PM   #60
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Except we have mods very much like that and people still complain about persecution.

Let's face it, no one is going to be happy with infractions being given. And as they only see what happens on their side, they'll complain about bias. We've had this discussion many times before. The only reason this thread was even made was because there were feelings that moderators weren't doing their job. So perhaps we'll just tighten the reigns on everyone.
Emotional response? People don't agree with you, so you threaten with tighter execution of already established law. Again, are you a healer, or are you a divider?

We can make the argument that this thread was intended to weed out people who disagree, so that they can be banned or infractions could be given. I like you El Sitherino. Just let everyone vent for now. Its good for the release of tension. Kavar's conor is filled with tension. Let them have one thread to let it all out. Sometimes its good to bellow out.

See post #49. I kind of agree with you.
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:59 PM   #61
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Emotional response? People don't agree with you, so you threaten with tighter execution of allready established law. Again, are you a healer, or are you a divider?
I direct your question at you, Yar-El.

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We can make the argument this thread was intended to weed out people who disagree, so that they can be banned or infractions could be given. I like you El Sitherino. Just let everyone vent for now. Its good for the release of tension.
We could, but most of us won't. We just want to view current events, debate our points, and have a friendly exchange of ideas and ideals. I hope you want the same.
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Old 10-11-2008, 02:04 PM   #62
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We've had this discussion many times before. The only reason this thread was even made was because there were feelings that moderators weren't doing their job. So perhaps we'll just tighten the reigns on everyone.
I was under the impression the purpose of this thread was not to prove or disprove moderator culpability, but rather to suggest ways that would further ensure the continuation of honest moderatorship.

If you feel tightening the reigns is the solution, I'm all for it and so should be any other rule abiding member. If you know how to control yourself from breaking the rules, then you needn't fear tighter application of said rules.

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Old 10-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #63
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I direct your question at you, Yar-El.
We could, but most of us won't. We just want to view current events, debate our points, and have a friendly exchange of ideas and ideals. I hope you want the same.
I'm with you on that. (see post #49) Sometimes an election can bring out frustration, and forums such as these can breed stress. Having a thread like this one will help people shift through the emotions. Maybe we can get out our frustrations here, so that some of the forum stress is relieved. Letting the moderators know your feeling is acceptable behavior. As long as you exercise it in a controlled manner, I don't see what is wrong with saying, "Hello! What just happened? Why?"

Last edited by Yar-El; 10-11-2008 at 06:30 PM. Reason: It won't solve anything. All it will do is make everything worse.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:52 PM   #64
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I know this will not seem like constructive criticism, but it is. This entire thread reminds me of an old saying “don’t let the inmates run the asylum.”

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Originally Posted by Forum rules and guidelines
The staff reserves the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread or post for any reason deemed necessary.
This tells me all I need to know about the staff’s involvement with my post. By participating in this forum, I understand and accept that they have this right. If I didn’t accept they had that right I would not post here.

Last edited by mimartin; 10-12-2008 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:59 PM   #65
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You are right. Its all up to those in charge. They were just kind enough to ask our opinion.
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Old 10-12-2008, 11:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum rules and guidelines
The staff reserves the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread or post for any reason deemed necessary.
This tells me all I need to know about the staff’s involvement with my post. By participating in this forum, I understand and accept that they have this right. If I didn’t accept they had that right I would not post here.
Exactly. Which is why people shouldn't bitch and moan about bias or favoritism, whether they do indeed exist here or not. Think about where you are.*





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