What do you think of Atris?

[Bee Hoon]

Ultimate Vader, the set canon shouldn't dissuade you;p Look at the game thru the eyes of your Exile and you will be a happy man!

TKA-001, I bring you an awesomesauce quote:

Originally Posted by Kreia

“It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.”

[TKA-001]

TKA-001, I bring you an awesomesauce quote:

“It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.”

How is that supposed to answer my question?

[Bee Hoon]

Basically, it implies that she fell waaaay before that conversation. I seem to recall that the Handmaiden mentions going on missions to obtain holocrons. And we know that Atris has tons of Sith holocrons. I imagine that it would take time to amass such a collection. My guess would be that the exile's decision to go to war was the beginning of her fall. By the time we encounter her on Telos, she was pretty manipulative--e.g. leaking the exile's information so that she could use the exile to draw out the Sith.

Anyhoo, just my !

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura

That was why I hated her so much... because she actively betrayed the jedi and thought she was still following their ways herself.

I don't think that's reason enough to hate her. First, you're not the Council and second, that just adds another layer of depht to her character.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del

I don't think that's reason enough to hate her. First, you're not the Council and second, that just adds another layer of depht to her character.

It makes her a better character, I don't think anyone denies that - but it certainly makes her less likeable, and therefore more hateable (I fairly sure that is not a word, but whatever)

I would think betraying all of your supposed friends, many of whom died as a result (Vandar) and then still adamently saying you are right is a good enough reason to hate someone. I believe the poll question was "what do you think of Atris?" - this can mean "do you like her or not?" or it can mean "how good of a character is she?" So I think her character idea gets an A. I do not like her at all.

What does not being the council have to do with it? Nobody here is on the council as it's fictional.

@TK-001: You bring up a good point , but why would Atris do her own thing without telling anyone about her real plan, especially when the people whom she is not telling are risking their lives for the original plan? That definatly suggests an alterior motive. I'm not saying that this actually proves she was a dark jedi at this point, but it's possible evidence.

Also, her speaking rudely about the exile at the trial does not suggest that she is dark at all IMO. Perhaps self centered and close minded, but if being rude to the exile was a characteristic of the darkside, almost everyone would be a sith. I think Katarr is evidence, as I have previously stated. Also, the gathering of the holocrons is highly suspicious - perhaps they are what turned her, enslaving her in dark power. Why would this supposed do-gooder go through so much trouble to collect them? Just to put them on shelves while they collect dust? Somehow I don't think so...

Please note that I am not trying to be obnoxious with my arguements. If they come off that way I'm sorry. Honestly I think both of you have made good points...that I just happen to disagree with.

~HOP

[Rev7]

I think that she is pretty lame.

I mean, we are talking about a lady that doesn't let her 6 (or something) 'slaves' do anything but practice their martial arts on each other. There is something wrong with that...

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Originally Posted by Rev7

I mean, we are talking about a lady that doesn't let her 6 (or something) 'slaves' do anything but practice their martial arts on each other. There is something wrong with that...

Well, there's an explanation for that in-game. The fact that she is a manipulative witch don't change much of my opinion about her. I mean, Kreia is no different on that sense and we don't see many people openly hating her.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Originally Posted by Rev7

I think that she is pretty lame.

I mean, we are talking about a lady that doesn't let her 6 (or something) 'slaves' do anything but practice their martial arts on each other. There is something wrong with that...

Well the reason was telling the Handmaidens how important their fighting skills were, and how being trained to use the force would flaw their perfection. Hmmph...she claimed she wanted to rebuild the jedi order - she had at least one (Brianna), possibly 6 force sensitives and went out of her way not to train them. Hypocrital much?

~HOP

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I don't think that's reason enough to hate her. First, you're not the Council and second, that just adds another layer of depht to her character.

its all made to be part of the experience! the same way you'd love your favorite character, you hate some other ones.

Why would this supposed do-gooder go through so much trouble to collect them? Just to put them on shelves while they collect dust? Somehow I don't think so...

IMO its very 'hapennable' the lure of learning things that may give you an edge for things, stuff your old masters wouldnt want you to learn, but stuff that you can easily get and they'd never know... you obtain a holocron, and learn from it. you feel great: you just learnt stuff that very few people know. (you just became special, a cut above the rest). that holocron you got referred to another one, perhaps by the same person, continuing topics covered in the first one. so you get that one as well and it just so happens that another one came along with it, so you check that one out too...
soon enough you have heaps. one of them requires you slip into a dark trance, something that you feel uncomfortable with, but have always wondered what it feels like... and its for a good cause, you tell yourself. as that last of the jedi, its *imperative* that you stay alive, and this just increases your chances of surviving. it feels sick, but fascinating... you try it again a while later, and this time to dont hold back... and its feels *exilerating!* soon you try all sorts of different things like it, and that sick feeling that you got when you started is a distant memory...
so it would be with her principles. like the trances in the above example, they would slowly be compromised, like a pedestal being chipped away at the sides, until all thats left is a small pole with a platform on it where she stands. she looks down, and the platform she's on looks the same as always has... she thinks its all ok, until as it is in the game, a 'wind' brings it crumbling to the ground, and out of the rubble comes a new person... essentially the same, but with dark robes with a head thing that looks like it was designed by the same blind rodian who designed the sith trooper uniforms...
(wow, that was uber metaphorical. i feel *eloquent*.)

[Endorenna]

Very well put, JIGOS.

[Razgriz1928]

Originally Posted by Ctrl Alt Del

Well, there's an explanation for that in-game. The fact that she is a manipulative witch don't change much of my opinion about her. I mean, Kreia is no different on that sense and we don't see many people openly hating her.

She's basically a more attractive Kreia

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Originally Posted by Endorenna

Very well put, JIGOS.

Indeed.

I didn't mean to say Atris thought "Sweet, sith relics! Let me bask in their dark power! Muuaahahaha!" It was probably a gradual change as you suggested.

People like Kreia better because she is more subtle about it. Okay, it was obvious that she was a baddy from the start, but she was not as whiny or bossy as Atris. Also, Kreia did what ever was best for herself, and was willing to change her opinion or actions if the need arose. Atris stubbornly stuck to a flawed set of beliefs that reduced her to a whining schutta. Kreia had the subtle power of manipulation over evryone. All Atris did was order around her Handmaidens, who would obey her without manipulation. Just my two cents.

~HOP

[Burnseyy]

Originally Posted by HIGH ON PIE 14

Indeed.

I didn't mean to say Atris thought "Sweet, sith relics! Let me bask in their dark power! Muuaahahaha!"
~HOP

Funniest mental image, ever.

Anyway, yeah. I didn't vote the 'i hate her so much I'd cut her to bits', because really - she's not that unlikeable (if thats a word?) her character definitely adds depth to the story line, and everyone loves a good 'fall to the dark side' story. The fact that the writers made everyone dislike her is really good, because that was their point.
If people like her, then that's for their own reasons... but I'm preeeetty sure the majority don't.

Besides, I was sort of relieved to get to her place on Telos, after all of that fighting, where Bao, Atton or Kreia couldn't stay alive for more than two minutes. A nice little chat over a cup of tea. Ahh.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Originally Posted by Burnseyy

Funniest mental image, ever.

Anyway, yeah. I didn't vote the 'i hate her so much I'd cut her to bits', because really - she's not that unlikeable (if thats a word?) her character definitely adds depth to the story line, and everyone loves a good 'fall to the dark side' story. The fact that the writers made everyone dislike her is really good, because that was their point.
If people like her, then that's for their own reasons... but I'm preeeetty sure the majority don't.

Besides, I was sort of relieved to get to her place on Telos, after all of that fighting, where Bao, Atton or Kreia couldn't stay alive for more than two minutes. A nice little chat over a cup of tea. Ahh.

Alright, I'm not thinking about you the same way again. I cannot sympathize with someone who's beliefs are so weak, yet behaves so hypocritically. I despise Atris because she is so convinced of her own superiority that she is dangerous. My aunt is just like Atris... even worse since suffering a head injury. If Atris were truly mad, then she would be the greatest sith EVER.

[mattig89ch]

Its been so long since I voted I can't remember what I put. It was either meh, or I hate her.

I do think that se was trying to do good, but her feelings got in the way. Remember what kreia said, that she loved you as anyone would love a hero. You hurt her, and brought back feelings best left alone (I think those were her words).

[TKA-001]

but she was not as whiny or bossy as Atris.

Kreia is less bossy than Atris? I must have missed something, because I don't recall Atris ever trying to make the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk into her personal βitcΠ. Atris doesn't do as much of anything as Kreia.

[RyuuKage]

Atris is a stuck-up moron. period. Just hearing her name makes me think of her idiotic attitude during your long talk with her on Telos, regardless of whether you're LS or DS.

[SW01]

I think Atris is something of a pitiable character in TSL. There are references to the fact that she possibly regretted her inaction or envied the Exile's decisiveness. I think she would have been a very interesting party member.

[Bastila Sham]

meh. Couldnt care less about this character

Last time I played this game was over three years ago, and I have no recollection of the character. How's that for impressions?

[Endorenna]

You don't remember Atris!?!?!? Lucky...I don't think I'll ever forget that witch...

[Darth_Yuthura]

Originally Posted by SW01

I think Atris is something of a pitiable character in TSL. There are references to the fact that she possibly regretted her inaction or envied the Exile's decisiveness. I think she would have been a very interesting party member.

Uh... are you sure you know who you're talking about? This is a character that betrayed the jedi at Katarr. She is the one who turned on the Exile both before the Mandalorian wars and after she returned. She was a sith down to her core.

Intentions are worthless without deeds to back them. If Atris knew what she did was wrong, then it was worse than simply being ignorant of your actions. She was the worst villain ever created in the SW Universe.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Its been so long since I voted I can't remember what I put. It was either meh, or I hate her.

just look at the poll results. the italicized one is the option you chose

i reckon atris was kreia junior somewhat. some of those holocrons were kreia's teachings and there are many parallels between them. i dont think kreia was always the witch she was in the game. i'd actually really like to see her young, and see how she fell. or whatever she did. (see if atton's 'good-looking-female radar' was correct ) (kreia would be like, "'fall?' so relative...blah blah" *manipulate* "Fool!")

[Feagildin]

I think Atris really just needed some loving. One night with the exile would've set her straight.

As for the concept art, I think she was originally supposed to be the exile. Female canon after all. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

On topic, I liked Atris as a character. She needed a serious attitude adjustment, but I did pity her. She seemed like yet another victim of the poor decisions of the council. Going to war is not going against the LS. If the council had acted on behalf of the people of the galaxy, and had been self-sacrificial instead of self-preservatory, things most likely would have been very different. Atris may never have fallen, being free to follow the Revan, Malak, and the exile freely, without the emotional conflict of "betraying" the council, the Jedi, and her own moral code. Revan and Malak may never have "fallen", with all the masters there to counsel and strengthen the younger, more emotionally susceptible Jedi. In other words, Atris was simply already cut to ribbons internally by the strain of being pulled in two very different directions by two different attachment with what were, to her, very real, very justified reasons. Some may look at that as simple weakness, and maybe it is. But Atris is human, and humans are social beings, we all sometimes need companionship. Atris didn't feel as though she had that. She couldn't go to the council with her feelings, because she couldn't accept her own feelings. She couldn't follow the exile, because she couldn't bring herself to defy the council. In the end, feeling friendless and alone, she embraced the dark side, and it answered her call for companionship. The dark side became her "friend", her confident, her solace. The holocrons she gathered became her council, and she, still unwilling to admit she had abandoned all she knew to be right, masked her alignment with rationalizations of good intent. In the end, she fell, and Kreia's words embodied Atris' position best: "It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."

I voted for "She was cool."

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

good insight, Feagildin!

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Kreia is less bossy than Atris? I must have missed something, because I don't recall Atris ever trying to make the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk into her personal βitcΠ. Atris doesn't do as much of anything as Kreia.

No. Kreia is manipulative, not bossy, there is a difference. Kreia uses blackmail and force techniques on the crew to get her way. While I don't like her manipulating thte crew, I admire her skill with it, especially since it generally produced the results she wanted.

Atris on the other hand was just a pathetic excuse for a jedi holed up in her ice acadamy "meditating with her holorons." When she speaks to exile she has an "I'm right your wrong you arrogant jerk" attitude. Kreia also tried to bring the exile over to her opinion but she does so through manipulation and persuasion rather than Atris' approach which is that she is right about everything and can never be wrong.

@Feagildin: You have a good insight there.

~HOP

[Ultimate Vader]

Originally Posted by Feagildin

I think Atris really just needed some loving. One night with the exile would've set her straight.

As for the concept art, I think she was originally supposed to be the exile. Female canon after all. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

On topic, I liked Atris as a character. She needed a serious attitude adjustment, but I did pity her. She seemed like yet another victim of the poor decisions of the council. Going to war is not going against the LS. If the council had acted on behalf of the people of the galaxy, and had been self-sacrificial instead of self-preservatory, things most likely would have been very different. Atris may never have fallen, being free to follow the Revan, Malak, and the exile freely, without the emotional conflict of "betraying" the council, the Jedi, and her own moral code. Revan and Malak may never have "fallen", with all the masters there to counsel and strengthen the younger, more emotionally susceptible Jedi. In other words, Atris was simply already cut to ribbons internally by the strain of being pulled in two very different directions by two different attachment with what were, to her, very real, very justified reasons. Some may look at that as simple weakness, and maybe it is. But Atris is human, and humans are social beings, we all sometimes need companionship. Atris didn't feel as though she had that. She couldn't go to the council with her feelings, because she couldn't accept her own feelings. She couldn't follow the exile, because she couldn't bring herself to defy the council. In the end, feeling friendless and alone, she embraced the dark side, and it answered her call for companionship. The dark side became her "friend", her confident, her solace. The holocrons she gathered became her council, and she, still unwilling to admit she had abandoned all she knew to be right, masked her alignment with rationalizations of good intent. In the end, she fell, and Kreia's words embodied Atris' position best: "It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."

I voted for "She was cool."

Agreed. I voted for "I love her to bits"

[TKA-001]

No. Kreia is manipulative, not bossy, there is a difference. Kreia uses blackmail and force techniques on the crew to get her way. While I don't like her manipulating thte crew, I admire her skill with it, especially since it generally produced the results she wanted.

Those "do whatever I want you to or else, bitch" speeches Kreia gives to Atton and Mandalore don't sound bossy at all to you?

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Originally Posted by HIGH ON PIE 14

No. Kreia is manipulative, not bossy, there is a difference. Kreia uses blackmail and force techniques on the crew to get her way. While I don't like her manipulating thte crew, I admire her skill with it, especially since it generally produced the results she wanted.

Sure there is a difference between bossy and manipulative. And she's actually both. She plays the role of a teacher, and a grumpy one for that matter.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think Atris became so blind with power when she was on the Council that she assumed it meant she was perfect and always right. Part of her anger for the Exile was that she wanted to feel superior to her and when she showed time and again that she was the stronger one.

Wouldn't it make sense that Atris hated the Exile because she was always going to be stronger, despite all that Atris had going for her. Why do you think Atris was too afraid to fight the Exile the first time on Telos? No matter what you did to provoke Atris, she kept giving empty threats of which she never delivered. In truth, Atris was just a power-hungary tyrant who knew she would never become the greatest jedi, so she moved to have everyone else killed so she was the only one left standing. That's why she betrayed the jedi on Katarr, but never went herself.

I hate arrogant, self absorbed, power mongers and that's exactly what Atris was.

[TKA-001]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think Atris became so blind with power when she was on the Council that she assumed it meant she was perfect and always right. Part of her anger for the Exile was that she wanted [to feel superior to her and when she showed time and again that she was the stronger one.

Wouldn't it make sense that Atris hated the Exile because she was always going to be stronger, despite all that Atris had going for her. Why do you think Atris was too afraid to fight the Exile the first time on Telos? No matter what you did to provoke Atris, she kept giving empty threats of which she never delivered. In truth, Atris was just a power-hungary [sic] tyrant who knew she would never become the greatest jedi, so she moved to have everyone else killed so she was the only one left standing. That's why she betrayed the jedi on Katarr, but never went herself.

I hate arrogant, self absorbed, power mongers and that's exactly what Atris was.

I thoroughly inspected every sentence in that post and could find at least two things wrong with every single one of them, but I wanted to save time, so...

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Originally Posted by TKA-001

Those "do whatever I want you to or else, bitch" speeches Kreia gives to Atton and Mandalore don't sound bossy at all to you?

No, the one with Atton sounded like manipulative blackmail to me. Kreia used his past jedi killing against him. That is not the same thing as bossy. Kreia wants to bend others to her will, but is not going to sit there and whine about how she is the only great one. Does Kreia like everyone? No. But she is smart enough to realize that everybody has a use. I'm not saying she does not want to have her way all the time...everybody wants there way. I'm, saying that she handled it more like someone who has sense, not some bratty 3-year old.

With Mandelore, she basically just told him that the age of the mandelorians was over and that she wanted him to protect the exile. Kreia, believes that if you don't agree with her, than you are wrong, but doesn't everyone? You think DY and I are wrong because we don't agree with you and vice versa. All I'm saying is that I don't hate Kreia, because the way she goes about manipulating takes skill, not just spouting self righteousness and trashing the exile like Atris. The point is Kreia can deliver on her threats, while Atris is full of nothing but hot air.

So you don't think Atris is arrogant or self absorbed? Hmmm...

~HOP

[TKA-001]

So you don't think Atris is arrogant or self absorbed?

I never said that. Furthermore, I apologize if I implied it.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Oh, well you said you found numerous things wrong with DY's post and arrogant and self absorbed were highlighted in yellow, so I assumed that was one of the things you disagreed with.

Okay then, well, that will teach me not to assume, won't it?

~HOP

[TKA-001]

I see. To avoid further confusion, I've removed the highlights.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

IMO kreia didnt need to be bossy. you'd talk to her and find out that she's already made you do what she wanted you to do without ever talking to you. *shudder*

[Chevron 7 locke]

I believe that she simply lost her way and need to be put back on the light side. as the exile may have once said: no one is beyond redemption. thats how I deal with Atris. I always try to save her. One reason is because she could be a possible romance...you know...a little reskin here and there