View Poll Results: Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?
It's an ending and I'm glad that they will continue from TSL. 26 19.26%
Being 300 years too late killed the story. 88 65.19%
Couldn't care less. The gameplay is what matters. 30 22.22%
There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. 2 1.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:11 AM   #41
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I'm also going to end this here because I'm not really interested in people who want to squander their money on rubbish they don't want.
How do you know a. it's rubbish and more importantly, b. something I don't want? I actually do want this game, even if it's not K3 SP RPG.


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Old 10-22-2008, 01:21 AM   #42
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No, they delivered "The Old Republic"
They made no promise to you at all. They never once made an advertisement for Knights of the Old Republic 3. They promised a joint project by Bioware and LA, and they gave it. They said it would take place in the Old Republic, which it has.

I recommend looking into the wookiepedia article on the Old Republic. Into the comic series, games, etc and you'll find it is much larger than 2 games.

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I'm also going to end this here because I'm not really interested in people who want to squander their money on rubbish they don't want.
The thing is, some of us do in fact want an MMO over K3. Myself included.

And thank you for ending here. I would hope that you will keep your anger in check and refrain from being hostile in the future towards other members.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:32 AM   #43
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Its getting harder and harder for me to not become a hypocrite. I will have to wait and see how things go. I wonder how the pricing will be.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:38 AM   #44
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This poll needs the option for liking that fact it is 300 years after KOTOR so as not to really interfere with that storyline (comics included).

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Old 10-22-2008, 12:00 PM   #45
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This poll needs the option for liking that fact it is 300 years after KOTOR so as not to really interfere with that storyline (comics included).
It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.

My anger is not the lucasarts has chosen an MMO instead of KOTOR 3, but that their MMO killed all possibility of KOTOR 3. If Lucasarts wanted an MMO, they should have had it 5-20 years after KOTOR and regarded it as a continuation of that storyline, or not touched KOTOR in any degree.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.

My anger is not the lucasarts has chosen an MMO instead of KOTOR 3, but that their MMO killed all possibility of KOTOR 3. If Lucasarts wanted an MMO, they should have had it 5-20 years after KOTOR and regarded it as a continuation of that storyline, or not touched KOTOR in any degree.
Ehm? Killed Kotor 3?

Hello 300 years of...nothingness? In The MMO the Sith have RECENTLY surfaced and laid waste to the Galaxy. Not 2 seconds after the Exile's departure.
Also, we see a rebuild Jedi order. Atton, Bao-Dur, Deciple must have done their job very well!

And..ehm...5-20 years after Kotor? Big raid to kill Revan for his Ubermask of +5 vs Lucasforums Moderators" ?

Nope. Revan and the Exile are to valuable. They don't make the same 'mistake' as Blizzard, where in WoW you can kill every great hero from the Warcraft RTS games.

I think this is the better way. A beautiful statue of Bao-Dur in the Jedi halls, a portrait of Revan in Sith academy...some holocrons in which they speak to you...the 'Onasi-class star Destroyer" etc etc.

I think this way, they leave the mystery untouched.

So, I agree with True_Avery.
Some people want this. There are great arguments pro and con, but the cons (the one's you have us) don't have monopoly on the truth.

@ Prime: Crap, you already brought in my '300 years is good' argument.

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Old 10-22-2008, 02:36 PM   #47
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It does interfere because it explicitly shows that everything after TSL does not get resolved for another 300 years.
How does no information = nothing happens?

We get some info from the games and the rest is now free to be explored by the comics (and other media), which have done a create job expanding that era so far. Hell we already have some info from the MMO blurb.

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Old 10-22-2008, 02:59 PM   #48
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*Snipped* Both BioWare and LA said the reason for making K3 an MMO is that:

http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/...place-kotor-3/

I like the Idea of leaving the mystery of what happened...? unsolved(for the most part.)

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A beautiful statue of Bao-Dur in the Jedi halls, a portrait of Revan in Sith academy...some holocrons in which they speak to you...the 'Onasi-class star Destroyer" etc etc.
Yeah, that would indeed be sweet.

It kinda makes since that the True Sith waited to attack, they wanted revenge on the Jedi, and with possibly 3-8 alive where would the satisfaction be?(especially with most of the 3-8 Jedi(or Sith) being newbs). They waited till the Exile's disciples had fully rebuilt the Order.

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Old 10-22-2008, 03:11 PM   #49
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Your poll topics are biased and do not allow us to be honest...I relish the chance to continue the game story and it is fine that it is later on, there are huge jumps in time throughout the SW canon and that is part of the overall way it is told. I wish people would be grateful we can return to the journey and be positive about the great effort being made on our behalf here. This is a fine extension of the KOTOR story and is not only KOTOR III but IV, V, VI, VII and so on as they specifically said.

Learn we will, being patient.


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Old 10-22-2008, 03:15 PM   #50
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I didn't vote in the poll, because the poll doesn't feature and option which reflects my view. I like the game concept. I like the artwork. I would absolutely LOVE to play from day one. However, I will probably not be able to due to finances. =( Unless there isn't a monthly fee. *crosses fingers*


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Old 10-22-2008, 04:54 PM   #51
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Unless there isn't a monthly fee. *crosses fingers*
There will be. You'd better pray damn hard for some divine intervention, and even then it'd probably still happen.


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Old 10-22-2008, 05:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
"The Wait Is Over" means the Wait is Over. It doesn't specifically say K3 or Revan on the cover.

And, from experience with multiple MMOs, an MMO is here to stay for a long time. They wouldn't spend years working on something so large only to use it as a pacifier for the real treat.

If you don't believe me, ask the people that are still waiting for Warcraft IV.
name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:49 PM   #53
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name one thing any significant number of people were waiting for then...K3 and BF3 are the only things that come to mind, and BF3's development is a well-known secret.

Face it, the only thing anyone was waiting for was K3, not an MMO, regardless of it's setting. Much less one with such an anticlimactic end for Revan and the Exile: "So they both went to fight off the big bad True Sith but instead got pwned or converted to the Dark side, the end..."
"Significant number" is relative. While people were waiting for both games, I don't think we have an actual statistic showing the majority wanted K3.

And, as has already been stated, what make this MMO not part of the continuity? Sure, it is set 300 years after, but it is promised to have a story and I'll trust Bioware on that for now. If they can pull it off Guild Wars style, what you will basically be playing is a very, very, large and multiplayer single player RPG.

And it is set 4000-3500 years before. We all knew Revan and Exile were eventually going to die, and we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive. Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time and considering Revan was some super powered Sith Lord and Exile is not -technically- alive, who is to say they are completely gone?

You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:58 PM   #54
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You can push it aside, but I thought it was an MMO and hoped it was an MMO the day it was released that Bioware was working on one.
i think most of us knew that, we just weren't waiting in anticipation...dread maybe...lol

Just based on some of the things in the Sith Empire descriptions, I've got what will likely be a common theory as to the identity of this shady Emperor...who knows, lol.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:18 PM   #55
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*Snipped* Both BioWare and LA said the reason for making K3 an MMO is that:

http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/...place-kotor-3/

I like the Idea of leaving the mystery of what happened...? unsolved(for the most part.)
I would like to clarify something for everyone to ensure that they get something straight:

TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.

It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.

If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:23 PM   #56
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It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.
In your opinion.

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Old 10-22-2008, 08:31 PM   #57
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:32 PM   #58
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The setting of the MMO is fine, but only fine for separating itself from the previous too games. It's far too far down the road to be a conclusive ending to the trilogy. I mean, would Return of the Jedi or Revenge of the Sith have felt like it concluded the Clone Wars or the falle of the Empire if the movie was set 300 years after Empire Strikes Back or Attack of the Clones?


The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.


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Old 10-22-2008, 08:41 PM   #59
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TOR and KOTOR III are NOT the same, but TOR as it is known explicitly declares that Revan and the Exile leave and never return. Then 350 years later, the enemies they went out to fight invade and conquer the Republic. This means that the climactic end to KOTOR is that the heros died or were converted.
The climactic end is that they both went into the unknown and we know not what happened.

Really, the climactic end is that 3500 years later a Sith Lord puts the final bullet into the head of both the Jedi and the Republic. Even when Luke tried to put them back together, neither have recovered well. So, really, all of this is for naught as we already know what happens.

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It would be like the ending of episode three and then hearing that it wasn't for 350 years that the Emperor was defeated. That detracts from everything at the end of episode three.
It wasn't for another like, 23 years right? The hero fell to the Dark Side, killed or attempted to kill everyone he loved, and then ruled the Galaxy with an iron fist for 20 something years until his son came along and turns him back before he dies.

Star Wars is known for redemption, but not so much for a happy road along the way. Revan and Exile are Mary Sue characters, and after how godly the lore made both of them out to be its almost a releif to see that they both have/had weaknesses.

But, again, we still do not know what happened to them. Revan was apparently incredibly powerful and knew a lot of extinct teachings. Exile is -technically- not alive, and is more of a moving hole in the Force that eats off of what is around her. Outside of time, I don't see a whole lot of reason as to why they are both not still out there in some way.

Except, everyone has to die somehow. We cannot follow every year of these people's lives to the book, and even a shorter time skip would just have us playing one of them, or another god like Jedi character. Although the storytelling is fantastic, the Old Republican is slowly filling with too many characters with plot armor.

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If Lucasarts wants an MMO, make it take place directly after TSL, or don't touch KOTOR at all.
Directly after TSL the Republic is still on the brink of total collapse and the Jedi are extinct. Its going to take at least 100 years before the Jedi are a force to be reckoned with again, and the Republic is recovering from a Galaxy wide depression and a Military that just went through almost 4 wars in a row.

It got 300 years to recover and then was mauled once again by Sith, this time making all the way to Coruscant. Now we have a cold war on our hands, which is a great way to put a world together in my book. (See, World of Warcraft)

Just my 2cents.

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The only possible reason, IMO, to set it this far in the future, is to leave room for a "K3" in between, or simply because they didn't want to deal with all the problems they created by failing to wrap up the universe of Kotor1+2.
Agreed. 300 years is a long time, and LA has proven already that they like to fill every single second of their universe up.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:41 PM   #60
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In your opinion.
In many people's opinions I believe.

And before anyone demands proof of something you already know... don't.

If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?

(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:42 PM   #61
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we have yet to actually discover if either are dead or alive.
No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.

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Jedi, including human Jedi, have been known to live for extraordinary amounts of time
Yeah? Like who?

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In your opinion.
It's only her/his opinion according to your opinion, Pr.


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Old 10-22-2008, 08:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?
It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.

Quote:
(Before you ask for more proof, then you provide real proof that the majority of KOTOR fans are glad to know Revan and the Exile died and failed)
yes, I AM glad they're dead.


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Old 10-22-2008, 09:03 PM   #63
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yes, I AM glad they're dead.
I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Atton, Bastila, Carth, and any other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) officially has no imagination.


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Old 10-22-2008, 09:06 PM   #64
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It takes place long after K2 because K3 would HAVE to revolve around fixing the galaxy. 300 years later they can claim the galaxy has fixed itsself, and it's a NEW problem.
Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.

They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.

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yes, I AM glad they're dead.
No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:06 PM   #65
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My biggest gripes with KotOR were that they weren't long enough. I wanted more. The first was complete, but just a bit too short. TSL was incomplete and short. That is the advantage of the MMO. It is able to have a huge long lasting story. Far greater than could be squished onto a single DVD. I mean I really wanted to explore the worlds. I wanted to wander around and see what all else there was. Instead I had barricades that could not be crossed. The tombs were tiny(for the most part). City planets that you only see tiny fractions of. When you have terabytes of storage, you can have a huge game. I don't like buying a bunch of games. I'd rather buy one that I can play for a long time. So in essence, I'm saying that yes I wanted TOR instead of KotORIII

They finished the story lines. They disposed of the main characters. If Revan had been in the second game as the antagonist or protagonist, I can see how you could draw the parallel to the films. but a cameo appearance and mentioning him going off to fight the true Sith, basically sealed his fate. If Vader or Luke had not been in Empire would a third movie have been made?

edit: Oh and I'm glad they are dead too.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:11 PM   #66
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No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
*Snipped* What matters is whether he's right or not, not how many of him there are. Do you seriously suggest that your opinion outranks his just because there's more of you than him?

While I appreciate the thought, backseat moderating is not needed. In the future, please use the Report function.

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Old 10-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #67
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No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. Arrogant enough to believe your opinion is worth so much?
You have already been informed of your flaming and disregard for the opinions of others. You have been given 1 Infraction. If you continue to act in this behavior, harsher action will be taken. Any questions can be directed at me via the Private Message system.

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Old 10-22-2008, 09:50 PM   #68
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If you object to what I say, then why don't you try to convince me that TOR is better 300 years after KOTOR than 5-20 after TSL. Why would KOTOR fans be glad to know that the ending goes badly?
I know this is not a question for me; however, I will give you a good reason why 300 is better. Hidden in the tombs and characters on Korriban and Dantooine you learn about the past. We searched through tombs and consoles to learn about the older Jedi and Sith generations. Knights of the Old Republic opened this new stretch of Star Wars history. Making a third game anywhere close to the events of The Sith Lords would be completely repetitive. We already know about the past; thus, there would be nothing new to learn. Exploring the tombs and archives deep into the future will recapture the essence of Knights 1. Why? There will be newer stories to tell, and a good 300 years of history to catch up with. Revan and Exile are now legends. Questions The Old Republic will answer may include - What happened to Revan and Exile? - What happened when Revan confronted the Sith Emporer? - Did Revan and Exile get together? - Did Revan and Exile clash in combat? - What happened to the world around them? Starting a game right after they left will give you nothing new. There is no more history to learn. We now have 300 years of history to shift through. We may learn about the rise and fall of new Sith Lords.

Knights 1 provided us with a fully functional Dantooine and Korriban. Knights II provided us with the Jedi Civil War aftermath; thus, Dantooine and Korriban were in a complete mess. There was no more mysteries to solve on these planets. Homes to the Sith and Jedi were completely wipped out. Putting the game 300 years into the future will return us to grave robbing, artifact finding, and many other elements made famous in Knights 1.

Knights 2 left some unanswered questions; however, you don't really learn anything epic about Sith and Jedi history. Go back to those feeling you had during Knights 1. You searched all these tombs and mysterious locations. Everything felt very large and epic. You felt as though you really belonged to something. Knights 2 was not an expansion of anything epic; therefore, you only learn about the fate of only a few historical players. We have more history to explore on both sides. Exploring rebuilt or never before seen tombs on Korriban is awsome.

My only problem is - Should this have been a single player game? I'm all open to the 300 years of history to learn and explore; however, I'm not too thrilled about a multiplayer game. I haven't made up my mind. I also don't have any experience in playing a MMORPG; thus, there is something for me to gain from this experience.

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Old 10-22-2008, 09:57 PM   #69
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No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.
HK-47 is "alive" and well, and I bet T3 is as well.

I'm saying the possibility is there. Currently we do not know, do we? This is all speculation on our part. Consider we had a Sith that can devour an entire planet, a Sith that tried to kill the Force, and a Forge that can make an infinite army by feeding off a Sun and a Sith, I'd say that the Old Republic story is pretty open for absurd things happening.

Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Darth Sion kept going by holding himself together with the Force. Nihilus/Exile are basically walking natural disasters instead of people. Exar locked his spirit away in a temple and stayed there for 4,000 years.

Not saying they -are-. I'm saying that with all that has happened and how Mary Sue these two characters are, its up for speculation as to if they are still around or not in my personal opinion.

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I second that, and anyone who believes that they should have succeeded with few or no casualties on the part of them and their party members (predictable sacrifices on the part of Bastila, Carth, or other potential sacrifice-ees notwithstanding) has no imagination.
Well, you can go talk to Avelone first for making Revan always win with the TSL story. Other than that, the story and sacrifices were pretty player specific.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:02 PM   #70
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Besides, I never said alive. I said "Out there in some way", which people like Exar have flexed around. They don't need to be "alive" to be apart of the story, and it seems that there are quite a few inventive ways to keep on existing in the Star Wars universe.

Which is why, personally, I think a 300 year gap leaves a nice opening for more choices and situations now that we are not confined to many of the decisions of K1 and TSL.
Everything is new again. Playing a game 10 years after Revan and Exile's departure will give us nothing new. 300 years of new history is a pretty nice way to start fresh. Those screenshots make The Old Republic feel epic again.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:40 PM   #71
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IMO you really can't compare the two in terms of gameplay or story progression. At least the franchise as a whole continues, and we get a delicious MMO to occupy our time until the next proper KotOR game comes.





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Old 10-23-2008, 12:10 AM   #72
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No. We don't. Even considering the possibility of Revan, the Exile, or any of their companions being alive for so long is absurd.
Carbon Freeze....

also, if you read the entry on the Sith Empire, it mentions that the Sith Emperor has been keeping himself alive apparently since the time of Revan/Exile through Sith magics.

plenty of ways to live longer in SW, heck just being a Force user increases your natural life expectancy a few decades...
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:14 AM   #73
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Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.


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Old 10-23-2008, 12:18 AM   #74
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Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.
Yeah, agreed. It would still be a punch in the face if it happened, and I wouldn't put it past them to do it either.
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:18 AM   #75
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Even if they can plausibly survive for 300 years, that doesn't change how lame it would be. Geeze, even Luke Freaking Skywalker died at some point.
amen

on that note, who wants to place bets as to the identity of the as-yet-unnamed Sith Emperor? XD
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:44 AM   #76
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The only one that we KNOW survives the events of TSL is HK. He somehow found his way to Mustafart where his "mind" was trapped in an old republic ship.

I kinda wish they would have set it only 500bby. That way it leaves thousands of years of history to discover. hehe we might even see the Millenium Falcon new(joke on how old the 1300 is).
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:59 AM   #77
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Then this is not KOTOR at all. This means that you've proven my point. Anyone who wanted KOTOR III will find that Lucasarts has given them something completely different.
Lets break down "Knights of the Old Republic"

The "Old Republic" refers to everything up until the formation of the Empire, the Fall of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic. Therefore, technically, Anakin and Mace were Jedi Knights of the old republic. In our specific context, the "old republic" is the republic 3000-4000 years before "current events".

So if you are a Jedi or Sith knight during the times of the old republic, then you are a "knight of the old republic". While this may not fit the feel of the game, the name itsself is techically correct in application.

Different from what we're used to? Sure it is. Unfitting? not really.

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They haven't fixed the old problem before they started the new one.
True, they have not, but lets face it, a LOT of content was cut from K2, and that's like making a sequel to a movie that didn't have a conclusion to it's own events. It really doesn't work. Because of the cuts to K2, it really killed the ability of K3 to exist without massive repairs to the K2 storyline.


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No, you are an individual who stands alone on this. That's a bit arrogant for you to claim your opinion is worth so much.
No, there are a few who agree with me. The majority? I don't claim that. You asked/stated that no KOTOR fan would want the Exile and Revan dead, I stated, as a KOTOR fan, that I am glad they are dead. I merely stated my opinion of their state of being because you offered up the challenge.

edit: man my writing has been shoddy of late.


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Old 10-23-2008, 01:03 AM   #78
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I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.

As for a MMO, I'll have to wait and see how they do it before I judge it. I personnally prefer to play games with great stories. I like reading, and games are like an interactive novel to me. We just need to hear more info...



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Old 10-23-2008, 01:12 AM   #79
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I thought that the whole reason that Bioware created KotOR in the first place was because they wanted all the lightsabers, force powers, blasters & droids, etc, but without all the restrictions of holding to the movie time period. By placing thier story 4000 odd years in the past, they could start fresh. The same is true for TOR, by setting it 300 years after TSL, they have more freedom to bring in new characters and story plots.
except that the prime story plot, the emergence of the True Sith and their empire, is nothing less than a continuance of what began in the KOTOR series (K1, K2, and the comics). The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.

Hopefully the comic or a novel sheds some light on what happened in the Unknown Regions, both before and after the Jedi Civil War.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:26 AM   #80
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The difference is that now most if not all of the characters are gone, so their story isn't complete. They just drop off the galactic record with no explanation. Sure the overarching story continues, but what about the personal stories for which it served as a background? Even the main factions are very different or completely gone.
Yeah, I know how it is to have favourite characters, only to have their story end suddenly. We always want to know what they're up to, how they're doing, like they were old friends.

In the end though, history usually only remembers the main protagonists, not the supporting characters.



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