RPG vs. MMORPG

[adamqd]

Singleplayer!

I'm not doubting that this will be a well made game, but, It WILL ruin KotOR for me, because I play swg (Sorry) and the MMO factor makes it not star wars in any way, shape, or form, the community aspect make's it like going about your everyday lives, just wearing a star Wars costume. I'm guessing as a Star Wars Fan there will 0% immersion, 100% netspeak.

[Jeff]

*Reads post*

*Looks at adamqd's avatar and sig pic*

<_<

[adamqd]

Thanks for Pointing that out Brainiac Trollflame, I'm all for it, just gonna be me though, no interaction, ok?

[CrisG]

I totally agree with ppl who want a SP game. I do too. I long for one. But it is not going to happen now, perhaps ever. LA has made its decision clear, I am sad to say, There have been so many valient attempts to get them to realize the playability and the value of their older titles. They ignore them. There is a wonderful group of modders working to salvage KoTOR I and II, and i have high hopes that they will manage to heal some of the damage that was caused by Lucas Arts forcing release of both titles before all that was meant to be in the games coulid be concluded, including the cutting of an entire planet that was largely ready with a complex and fascinating storyline for KoTOR I. Sigh.

I dont know for sure what the future holds. I hope hope hope that Single Player will survive the current fascination many Game Developers are having with MMO's. They think it is a way to deliver massive content to huge numbers of players but up until how, all of them, almost, have been dismal failures in terms of quality of game world and immersion, they just dont deliver what the promo art promises in terms of quality. So I am among the strongest proponents of SP, but for now, this is what we will have. So I try to encourage support so that if and when this works, or it at least brings renewed interest in the wonderful world of the Old Republic, we may at some time get a worthy KoTOR III.

I shall continue to hope and continue to support LA for they have given us JK O and JK A and the KoTOR"s and many of the other games have fine qualities too. Here's hoping the Force will remain strong.

[Scars Unseen]

Wasn't really looking for either, though I will tentatively say that I'm for the MMO. To be honest, 1 & 2 left things in such a state that I have trouble imagining a third game that would be satisfying. You'd either play yet another new character that had the vaguest of connections with the original story or find some way to lose all the power that you had accumulated in one of the other KOTORs.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by adamqd

Thanks for Pointing that out Brainiac Trollflame, I'm all for it, just gonna be me though, no interaction, ok?

You're welcome!

[playloud]

Originally Posted by lokfan78

... I kind of hope it tanks spectacularly so they have to make a proper SP game to recoup their losses

If it tanks, they will just bury KOTOR forever. What they need to do is learn how to LISTEN to their customers. When LA/SOE made the NGE for SWG, people on the forums told them "if these changes go live, I'm canceling all my accounts." Well, guess what. They weren't lying. Subs went way down after the NGE.

Lucasarts needs to learn to listen. The majority of players wanted KOTOR 3 with realistic graphics

Instead, they are giving us KOTOR MMO with cartoon graphics.

I mean, this was simple... K2 is finished. Now work on K3 (but give this one a little more polish). Continue and/or finish the story. We weren't asking for much. The games sold well. It's not like we were asking for a handout. We were asking for another product to buy.

Then there is the long break without any information. Rumors about an MMO start popping up. Most people on the forums say they don't want and MMO. They want K3. But Lucasarts is so darn stubborn, then pretend we don't exist.

I read when TOR is going to take place, and it all sounds good... until I remember that they can't possibly tell a great immersive story, BECAUSE it is an MMO. Too many people named Revan420 will be running around, all trying to be the main character of the server. It just doesn't work. Single player RPGs work because you are separated from the other players, and you CAN be the main character.

The sad part is they will probably make more money off of this, due to the subs. They will then feel vindicated, because that is the only way they measure success. It doesn't matter if it is a quality game or not. Lucas has a bazillion dollars. You would think that since he will never go starving, that he would be more focused on keeping his company's reputation strong, than earning every last penny he can.

I truly hope I am proven wrong, and that TOR is an awesome game. But when I saw awesome, I mean that it reminds me so much of K1 and K2 (strong story, that once gets immersed in). If it doesn't do that, I hope LA loses a lot of money on it, so more people can tell them "Don't blame us, WE wanted K3, and we told you so. You gave us something else"

[SpartanPride]

Originally Posted by adamqd

Thanks for Pointing that out Brainiac Trollflame, I'm all for it, just gonna be me though, no interaction, ok?

That made me laugh XD

[Lance Monance]

I don't doubt that TOR has the potential to be a great MMO. But MMOs do not revolve around an immersive plot and great voiced dialogue. They simply don't. So far, every MMO's attempt to be on par with a SPRG when it comes to those things has failed.

I'm massively disappointed with LucasArts decision.

[Miltiades]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

I don't doubt that TOR has the potential to be a great MMO. But MMOs do not revolve around an immersive plot and great voiced dialogue. They simply don't. So far, every MMO's attempt to be on par with a SPRG when it comes to those things has failed.

There's a first for everything. And because no MMO has succeeded so far in creating an solid story, doesn't mean this one won't.

[The Doctor]

When I first heard word that this new game was going to be an MMO, I was pissed. Beyond pissed. I was livid. I was ready to swear off the game completely, and not even bother keeping up with its progress, nor try it when it came out.

I simply don't believe that an MMO can do the era justice. However, I also loathed the first KotOR game when I first read about it, and swore I'd never try it. It was purchased for me by my less-than-in-touch-with-my-life uncle from BC, and I tried it to humour him. It's not my favourite game of all time, and I can't imagine how I could have been such an ass.

So, I'm going to give the game a try, at least on a trial basis if possible. Maybe they'll pull a Jagex, and offer limited Free Servers in addition to the full Members one. Hopefully that's the only aspect they take from RuneScape, though. I used to play it. I was not amused. -_-

So, ultimately, I'm cautiously optimistic about this new chapter in the Old Republic era. I will definitely try it, but I'm not going to let myself get too excited about it, lest I be let down.

[LordOfTheFish]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

I don't doubt that TOR has the potential to be a great MMO. But MMOs do not revolve around an immersive plot and great voiced dialogue. They simply don't. So far, every MMO's attempt to be on par with a SPRG when it comes to those things has failed.

I'm massively disappointed with LucasArts decision.

What is so disappointing with an MMO? After all, a change is nice every now and then.

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

I don't doubt that TOR has the potential to be a great MMO. But MMOs do not revolve around an immersive plot and great voiced dialogue. They simply don't. So far, every MMO's attempt to be on par with a SPRG when it comes to those things has failed.

I'm massively disappointed with LucasArts decision.

You apparently haven't listened to the press releases. That is the reason their writing staff is huge. They have said that most MMO's miss that 4th pillar of an immersive story. Everyone told them that they couldn't do that in an MMO and that was something they struggled with the most. It meant they had to work harder to achieve that.

They have also said that they wrote it with the idea that 40% of people who play MMO's actually do like to play alone for the most part. They also stated that you could go through most of the story without having to interact with others.

So it's still too early to tell whether your statement is true or false. Just because nobody has done it doesn't mean that it cannot be done. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. and taking them at their word on this. How much would you pay to have KotOR 3 through 10 shipped on release?

Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine

Single player, definately. I'm disappointed that they seem to have cast aside all they've done for KOTOR and killed it off with just 'He's dead'.

Shakespeare killed King Lear with "he dies"

[SpartanPride]

Originally Posted by Tommycat

Shakespeare killed King Lear with "he dies"

That doesn't make it a good decision!

[JediMasterJambi]

Originally Posted by Tommycat

So it's still too early to tell whether your statement is true or false. Just because nobody has done it doesn't mean that it cannot be done. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. and taking them at their word on this. How much would you pay to have KotOR 3 through 10 shipped on release?

Quick point here. Not only are you going to give a company that has shown time and again that it follows the "richest route" never listening to its fans the benefit of the doubt, but your going to take their word as truth as well? Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by LordOfTheFish

What is so disappointing with an MMO? After all, a change is nice every now and then.

A lot of you miss the point. There isn't an "every now and then" anymore. TOR is now Kotor 4, 5, 6, 7 and BEYOND. They are killing the KoTOR game series with the release of a MMO. Period.

Originally Posted by The Doctor

So, ultimately, I'm cautiously optimistic about this new chapter in the Old Republic era. I will definitely try it, but I'm not going to let myself get too excited about it, lest I be let down.

Many people can't even afford to be cautiously optimistic about a monthly fee during a world-wide financial crisis. Even if the world wasn't in that current state, an MMO of this level will consume HUGE amounts of time. I'm talking from when you wake up till when you go to bed. Most people can't do that. Some children have this luxury, anyone above 18 normally doesn't.

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if LA hadn't intentionally leaked info WAY back when we first heard of this idea, merely to get some fans thinking it was a good idea. The only reason I will look at this game will be BioWare. BioWare convinced me to buy an Xbox 360 to play Mass Effect, and they may convince me to pick up more hours at my work so that I can spend a few in the world of ToR. That is IF it looks AMAZING and not just "good."

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by JediMasterJambi

Quick point here. Not only are you going to give a company that has shown time and again that it follows the "richest route" never listening to its fans the benefit of the doubt, but your going to take their word as truth as well? Good luck with that.

Fact is, I have enjoyed Bioware games. So far I haven't been disappointed. That's who I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. Unless I have reason to think otherwise, I'll trust them enough to make an enjoyable game. I can decide within the free month I get whether the game is worth paying a monthly fee for. I'm not going to say outright that I will be playing on a permanent basis. The game has to be compelling enough to WANT to play. I've bought plenty of games that I paid good money for, and later found out weren't worth the CD they were printed on. This wouldn't be much different if that is the case.

As for the time consumption: Wow's statistics show the average age to be in their 30's your point of children being the only ones with time on their hands is out of line. In fact, it might be even more compelling for families to get multiple accounts so that the family can play together, or they may just share an account between them.

The economy:
Things are rough now, but how many people have other monthly entertainment bills. People spend money on cable, renting electronics, game rentals(gamefly), movie rentals(Netflicks), or they even spend money on purchasing the movies(2-3 hours of entertainment at $20 sounds like less of a deal than $15 for hundreds of hours).

[Prime]

Originally Posted by LordOfTheFish

What is so disappointing with an MMO? After all, a change is nice every now and then.

What if it is something you don't want changed in the first place to something that you don't like?

[LordOfTheFish]

Originally Posted by Prime

What if it is something you don't want changed in the first place to something that you don't like?

Well I guess that just one's opinion. Maybe LA's opinion is more in favor with a MMO.

[Lance Monance]

Originally Posted by Tommycat

You apparently haven't listened to the press releases. That is the reason their writing staff is huge. They have said that most MMO's miss that 4th pillar of an immersive story. Everyone told them that they couldn't do that in an MMO and that was something they struggled with the most. It meant they had to work harder to achieve that.


So it's still too early to tell whether your statement is true or false. Just because nobody has done it doesn't mean that it cannot be done. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. and taking them at their word on this. How much would you pay to have KotOR 3 through 10 shipped on release?

What you're saying is essentially true and I acknowledge that. We can't tell with any degree of certainty at this point.

However..MMOs do not revolve around a story like SRPGs do. In SRPGs you need a story and immersion to motivate people, in MMOs you don't. MMOs are about interaction with other players, that's why they are MMOs. To me, the simple fact that there are other players in the game diminishes immersion. That's an entirely subjective preference ofc, but I think it is not unreasonable to assert that games that focus on story tend to be better storywise than games that focus on story and OTHER things.

Originally Posted by Miltiades

There's a first for everything. And because no MMO has succeeded so far in creating an solid story, doesn't mean this one won't.

I'm not interested in a "solid" story. I prefer a great story that fully immerses me into the game.

Originally Posted by LordOfTheFish

What is so disappointing with an MMO? After all, a change is nice every now and then.

I expected a continuation of Knights of the old Republic. I didn't want a change. Therefore I'm disappointed.

Originally Posted by LordOfTheFish

Well I guess that just one's opinion. Maybe LA's opinion is more in favor with a MMO.

Well guess what, you're correct! But I don't think they approached this decision with thinking "Hm.. what would I prefer to play?"....

[Miltiades]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

I'm not interested in a "solid" story. I prefer a great story that fully immerses me into the game.

Then let me change my "solid story" into "a great story that fully immerses people into the game".

[Lance Monance]

Well in that case what I wrote earlier applies.

[Miltiades]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

Well in that case what I wrote earlier applies.

And in that case, so does mine.

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by Lance Monance

However..MMOs do not revolve around a story like SRPGs do. In SRPGs you need a story and immersion to motivate people, in MMOs you don't. MMOs are about interaction with other players, that's why they are MMOs. To me, the simple fact that there are other players in the game diminishes immersion. That's an entirely subjective preference ofc, but I think it is not unreasonable to assert that games that focus on story tend to be better storywise than games that focus on story and OTHER things.

They likened it to New York and all of the superheros there(Marvel comics). Basically if any one of them doesn't show up that day the world is doomed. You could be on your own quest and not see another person except maybe in passing as they are off to do their own quest. He also said that they designed the game around people who don't like MMO's. He also made sure to mention that 40% of MMO gamers don't like other people. But still it's too early. They could just be blowing smoke. Raising up their MMO as any good marketing staff would do.

I dunno, maybe I'm just listening to more news than most are. I heard the recording of the Q and A portion of the announcement. Aside from "We're not talking about that" Story and immersion were the most common themes.

[Jae Onasi]

Originally Posted by Tommycat

As for the time consumption: Wow's statistics show the average age to be in their 30's your point of children being the only ones with time on their hands is out of line. In fact, it might be even more compelling for families to get multiple accounts so that the family can play together, or they may just share an account between them.

We have 4 Guild Wars accounts now so that we can play together as a family. It cost us a fair amount (though we got the latter 2 accounts on sale as the prices came down), but less than the cost of going to the movies 3 times as a family. Instead of family game night around the kitchen table, we have family game night on the computers. I'm hoping TOR has a family discount....

[Tommycat]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

We have 4 Guild Wars accounts now so that we can play together as a family. It cost us a fair amount (though we got the latter 2 accounts on sale as the prices came down), but less than the cost of going to the movies 3 times as a family. Instead of family game night around the kitchen table, we have family game night on the computers. I'm hoping TOR has a family discount....

Haha if you count in the 4 large sodas at movie theater prices and the popcorn for the kids(and usually a shared one for the adults) the cost of a movie out is more expensive than a month of gaming at an online MMO.

Tickets around $30(if the kids are young enough....)
Drinks/Treats/headache medicine(might not be your kids, but other kids)/therapy bill.... Definately more than $30

So the monthly comes out cheaper for an online game than one night at the movies... at worst 2 nights at the movies.

I hope the have a family discount too Jae. It would make for more people playing.

[Arcesious]

I wanted a singleplayer RPG. Every MMO I've played, (always just trial versions) I have to deal with annoying players, server lag, and the overall disappointment of the fact that there would be monthly payments if I decided to keep playing...

When I play an RPG, I want to be away from human contact. If it's an FPS like Halo 1-3, I want multiplayer. Multiplayer has always ruined my brief MMO gaming experiences. That and this game just isn't what I was hoping for. I just wanted to be Revan again, and go another exciting adventure. Thusly, why I'm not going to even try this game... (Also because I highly doubt my computer can handle the graphics.)

I'm willing to buy a well-made SPRPG for as much as $50. But monthly payments for an MMO where I'm stuck playing as a 'nobody' isn't my idea of fun and adventure.

I've always loved those moments in the first Kotor, where it's really just spectacular and fun, the storyline that made me really feel part of the game.

But in an MMO, I'm forced to be a nobody. Even if this game has a great stroyline, I know that it would be ruined by a hundred morons coming in and yelling all the typical stuff: "noob, pwned, owned, [insert leetspeak]," etc, etc.

[/rant]

[Darth333]

SP for me, mainly for the storyline and also because I don't have time to loose playing online games. I like to play games where I want (I don't necessarily always have access to the net), when I want/can (sometimes just a few hours per month) and how I want (mods and cheats...I won't restart a char just to try out, for the sake of curiosity, those force powers I would have never chosen anyway). L33tspeak and running after xp don't interest me.

[Weiser_Cain]

I prefer the NWN style of Multiplayer.

[Serpentine Cougar]

I would have preferred single-player as well. Single-player makes me feel more in control of the game. Also, I somehow doubt that even Bioware can make an MMO with a story as good as some single-player RPGs. And to keep an MMORPG going they'll have to keep the conflict going without resolution, which is one of the key elements of a story. They won't be able to make the Jedi or the Sith win the conflict or they'd make all the players of that faction mad.

This is one game I'm not looking forward to. MMO's just ain't mah thang.

[GeneralPloKoon]

I would rather play a singleplayer game than this....

[Soulouri]

from the KOTOR universe point of view, I would perfer single player by a long way.

From an MMO point of view, i've been wanting a new Star Wars MMO for a long time and can't think of anything better than it being based on KOTOR.