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Old 11-07-2008, 11:01 PM   #41
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The war in Iraq should be proof enough of what I said. Over 100,000 innocent Iraqi citizens have been killed because of our actions in their sovereign state. A nation that had never committed an overt act against the US was invaded. Every death that came about because of that war was because of us, the US.

NEVER would such an act have been allowed if the USSR had still been in existence. On Christmas of 1991, the world as we knew it changed forever. As much as we hated the Soviet Union, they provided the counter balance that we desperately need.

By invading Iraq, we essentially declared that we believed it was within our rights to murder citizens of other states if we could benefit from their suffering. That's not a little harsh, it's a fact that we NEVER address the lives lost on the Iraqi's side of the conflict.
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Old 11-07-2008, 11:21 PM   #42
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I like to think of it as the US taking over the Soviets' invasion responsibilities.


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Old 11-24-2008, 09:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
Ok, so i've been following American Politics and news broadcasts for some time now, and I've noticed more and more that certain outlets, or people like to throw around the term 'Un-American'.

Now, as a Brit, it's pretty hard to understand - what defines this? And what makes one 'Un-American'? Or is it just a political insult used by those who wish to disparage another's patriotism and beliefs?

This concept of 'Un-American'ness is very strange to many outside of the US, and I'm seeking some input from anyone, Americans or not (maybe fellow foreigners also have similar questions).

I'd like to ask that people keep thoughts and opinions regarding the ongoing elections out of this discussion - i'm not interested in hearing accusations against the respective candidates here.

*Move this to the political discussion if it is felt that it will be better answered there - I didn't think it was necessarily a political topic.
THANK YOU--I was getting *SO* sick of political-elect talk.

My own opinions.
1) using America's own freedom of speech to bash it--especially college professors who speak out against our 1st amendment.
Mandating government controls over it.
CENSORSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL DECENCY STANDARDS.
For example, I think moderators like Jae Onasi do a fine job of the decency sort of neatening up after clumbsy posts... like mine (though you remind me of general mother figures, Jae!). Censorship, well, is banning expression because it "offends" a certain group. I don't care how much you despise it, if it's anything short of defamatory, slandering sentiment, you leave it alone.

2) calling any talk you disagree with "hate speech" or implying racism (or taint thereof) to certain actions or inactions. What a cop out. That's like calling "hold" whenever pressed in a fencing match or "time" when losing a match or failing a test in kendo.

3) As someone who is on a level of owner/manager of family business (mom and pop), I see things differently than workers. I RESENT being called fascist.

4) LACK of work ethic. Does nobody get up to change the channel anymore?
Is it so unheard of to go out and clean your yard? Clear snow?
Hate to admit it, but, that is the reason so many illegals are allowed here. I wanted something, I WORKED for it, unlike so many of my friends: spoiled. So many lazy but able bodied adults sitting around. Though I would agree there is business greed largely involved which leads me to my next one. Immigrants (LEGAL citizens) I have less problems with, but still, we could do better.

5) Poisoning the honor of free market/capitalism. "The hyper-greed standards". (paraphrased Granny Smith)
Someone in my own town was thrown in jail for evading taxes by hiring illegals. The whole benefits thing is debatable with me, BUT the unethical business practices are not. Undercutting and running at a loss to kill competition. SHAME! Also, what one says is not what one means or does. Shifting blame to another when the fault and responsibility is ONE's OWN. Taking advantage of uneven play fields to monopolize a market. Short sidedness to make MONEY MONEY MONEY! The free market is not free from honor! The self-sustaining individual able to support him/her own self and family.

6) Attacking and destroying the traditional family. I don't care what anyone says--I have yet to see any credible evidence that the functional family is NOT a building block of our society. I'd like to go more into it, but those issues are a bit touchy and perhaps inappropriate here.

7) OK, saying we "deserved" 9/11, or legitimizing violent behaviors by "racial karmah". Cop outs. The crusades happened long before USA was born. Not everybody descended from slaveholders either--many immigrated (not illegaly migrated) here. (Though I'm sure some slipped through the cracks!)

8) Political correctness stereotyping. Stalin himslef invented the term. It oversimplifies things, paints everyone in a group one stripe all while refusing to recognizing there can be differences WITHIN a group. Assuming just because a so-called "Republican" or "Democrat" is in office that Conservatives and Liberals (respectively) have this unyielding collective agreement with the leader.

If you wish to debate me at length, PM me.


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Old 11-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
7) OK, saying we "deserved" 9/11, or legitimizing violent behaviors by "racial karmah". Cop outs. The crusades happened long before USA was born. Not everybody descended from slaveholders either--many immigrated (not illegaly migrated) here. (Though I'm sure some slipped through the cracks!)
There is a difference between saying America deserved 9/11 and admitting that (bad) foreign policy created antipathy towards the US.



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Old 11-25-2008, 01:29 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
There is a difference between saying America deserved 9/11 and admitting that (bad) foreign policy created antipathy towards the US.

Good point.

Which leads me to sometihng else I wanted to point out in general: As an independent with conservative values (largely but not completely), I am appaled at the lack of leadership republicans have shown.

I'm not entirely convinced it's the result of boil-over from previous actions. However, I'll let it rest at that since I'm not entirely sure it isn't either.
Say whatever you will about that. I am not saving face for them, nor am I jumping on the prosecution bandwagon.

EDIT--my bad, the rest of that went somewhere else--OR SO I meant. Carry on!


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Old 11-25-2008, 12:14 PM   #46
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So what I've gathered from this thread is people are unamerican if they: eat onions, hate jesus, talk about election politics, anything involving Stalin, don't talk about election politics, discuss anything involving 9/11 without screaming "USA! USA!", are lazy bums, bums, or minimum wage workers.



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Old 11-25-2008, 01:19 PM   #47
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Oh boy....I'm not even sure if that's the end of the list of so-called reasons of Un-Americanism... I wonder if this thread accomplished much in the way of finding Un-Americans. Strange....


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Old 11-25-2008, 01:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
I wonder if this thread accomplished much in the way of finding Un-Americans.
That wasn't my intent. I was simply trying to find out exactly what is defined as 'un-american' - as a foreigner, i'm often confused by the statement - it's not clearly defined.






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Old 11-25-2008, 01:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
That wasn't my intent. I was simply trying to find out exactly what is defined as 'un-american' - as a foreigner, i'm often confused by the statement - it's not clearly defined.
Heres the answer;

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Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis View Post
In my experience, "unamerican" is universally used by people who have poor arguments against what they're trying to disparage. If someone is a traitor, say he is a traitor. If someone is a liar, say he is a liar, etc. But if someone says that another person is unamerican, I am likely to start ignoring them immediately after because they have nothing to say that's worth my time.



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Old 11-25-2008, 01:34 PM   #50
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Oh, sorry about the misunderstanding there I meant no offense if any was taken, but some of the reasons given aren't always the best definitions, a bum is not American, a person who speaks about the election politics isn't American. Some of these ideas aren't exactly Un-American, lest it is confusing...

What do you think it is to be Un-American, from your point-of-view?


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Old 11-26-2008, 01:22 PM   #51
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Sam Dravis said it best but lately I think it is nothing more than blustering over who is more patriotic. Over the idiocies that have occurred the last 8 years and my opposition to the insisting on what is American, I might as well be called un-American.

Heck as far as my family is concerned I am toeing the line on Americanism since there are some ideas of theirs that I outright oppose.

It's all a matter of view but frankly it is ridiculous.

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Old 11-26-2008, 01:37 PM   #52
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The idea of un-Americanism is rather ridiculous, isn't it. I myself think America is more an ideal then it is state-of-mind, there really isn't a point where someone is Un-American, I wouldn't know where to draw the line. But when people start saying what is and isn't American, then we border towards McCarthyism {I think that's how it's spelled}. We all know that that sort of -ism isn't very American-like. It's all very confusing...


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Old 11-26-2008, 02:12 PM   #53
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If we are to accurately describe "un-American," we must first describe the word "American," must we not? Here, I do believe that we refer that we use the word "American" as an adjective, that generally is used to describe someone patriotic, one who shares the same view as the speaker, and other such (idiocies?). Now, as to the meaning of "un-American", I'd say that many people would describe someone as "un-American" if they either 1) disagree with their views (and, in their opinion, would lead to something 'bad' happening to America) or 2) they are using it as slander against an opponent in a political race.

At any rate, I do believe that the term "un-American" is an opinion, and is only to be used when someone is losing real things to argue/debate about. Of course, it might depend on the situation, but the general consensus seems to be that calling someone un-American is to attempt draw attention away from a certain point, or some other political stunt, and is generally used by the one losing in a (certain) situation.

My two cents.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:57 PM   #54
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Yeh kind of along the lines Litovsky started on. We have the popular local term of "Un-Australian" in politics.

It means, "I speak for the popular majority."

It is complete and utter farce. In fact you can expect the proponent of such a statement to be inherently incorrect in anything else they've been levelling, straight off.
It is a resort to bullying, a lack of intellectual grounds.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:14 AM   #55
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I'm not American but I guess the same applies everywhere...I just call it "low level populism".

Being able to criticize a political system or orientations is essential to any democracy IMHO.
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Old 11-30-2008, 03:14 PM   #56
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I'm not American but I guess the same applies everywhere...I just call it "low level populism".

Being able to criticize a political system or orientations is essential to any democracy IMHO.
Uh there are some things which you can legitimately say that they are UnAmerican and/or borderline treasonous.

Selling military equipment to a country where in our laws it is illegal to sell stuff like that to especially when they are supplying and training people whom go on to attack our troups is a good example.

Specifically I'm bringing up General Electric which so happens to be the Parent Company of NBC and MSNBC.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:41 PM   #57
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Uh there are some things which you can legitimately say that they are UnAmerican and/or borderline treasonous.

Selling military equipment to a country where in our laws it is illegal to sell stuff like that to especially when they are supplying and training people whom go on to attack our troups is a good example.

Specifically I'm bringing up General Electric which so happens to be the Parent Company of NBC and MSNBC.
That's more or less an action rather than speech. What about saying something that could be deemed "un-American" by some? For example, speaking out against the current administration in a time of war. Would that be considered un-American?
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:27 PM   #58
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That's more or less an action rather than speech. What about saying something that could be deemed "un-American" by some? For example, speaking out against the current administration in a time of war. Would that be considered un-American?
Depends, I don't mind people disagreeing with the Bush Administration, but you can do that without accusing him of being the one to fly the planes into the World Trade Center. Stuff like that is just to attempt to try to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

If you want to disagree with them fine, but people can be civil about it.
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:14 PM   #59
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Selling military equipment to a country where in our laws it is illegal to sell stuff like that to especially when they are supplying and training people whom go on to attack our troups is a good example.
Ever seen Lord of War?

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Depends, I don't mind people disagreeing with the Bush Administration, but you can do that without accusing him of being the one to fly the planes into the World Trade Center.
I haven't heard anyone accuse Bush of flying the planes into the WTC - wouldn't that mean he was dead?



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Old 11-30-2008, 09:22 PM   #60
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I haven't heard anyone accuse Bush of flying the planes into the WTC - wouldn't that mean he was dead?


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Old 11-30-2008, 11:11 PM   #61
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Uh there are some things which you can legitimately say that they are UnAmerican and/or borderline treasonous.

Selling military equipment to a country where in our laws it is illegal to sell stuff like that to especially when they are supplying and training people whom go on to attack our troups is a good example.

Specifically I'm bringing up General Electric which so happens to be the Parent Company of NBC and MSNBC.
If I recall, we aren't at war with Iran. And if General Electric cannot do business with them because it supports "terrorism", then why are we still exporting oil from the Middle East and paying them for it.

By your logic, every time you fill your car up you are supporting terrorists. That is just as bad as those WW2 propaganda posters in the US that said that if you didn't carpool you supported Hitler.

Oh, and are you implying that MSNBC supports terrorists? Again, you should probably double check this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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Old 12-01-2008, 01:11 AM   #62
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I haven't heard anyone accuse Bush of flying the planes into the WTC - wouldn't that mean he was dead?


I've heard it, in a more indirect conspiratorial manner from Alex Jones.

Directly...can't say that I have either. Good point. Not to mention how damn STUPID it sounds when you actually consider it.


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Old 12-01-2008, 01:53 PM   #63
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If I recall, we aren't at war with Iran. And if General Electric cannot do business with them because it supports "terrorism", then why are we still exporting oil from the Middle East and paying them for it.
No, it is illegal for companies in the United States to do business with Iran last I checked. We have other countries that we refuse to sell military hardware to, like North Korea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
By your logic, every time you fill your car up you are supporting terrorists. That is just as bad as those WW2 propaganda posters in the US that said that if you didn't carpool you supported Hitler.
While we do import some oil from middle eastern countries our top supplier is actually Canada.

Anyways, I'm not saying that at all, people should try to conserve and get more fuel efficient vehicles but some people can't afford hybrids or the hybrid doesn't have the power needed to do the job required (particularly with farms).

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Originally Posted by True_Avery
Oh, and are you implying that MSNBC supports terrorists? Again, you should probably double check this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
I've basically said that MSNBC is made up of a bunch of left wing kooks that are a sham. I'd sooner trust Rush Limbaugh to be fair and balanced on something than anyone on MSNBC, in other words MSNBC is so bad that they have absolutely no credibility in my mind.

Btw, I know quite well what McCarthyism is, and I'm rather insulted that you'd compare me with McCarthy.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:15 PM   #64
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No, it is illegal for companies in the United States to do business with Iran last I checked. We have other countries that we refuse to sell military hardware to, like North Korea.
Says who? Have they been deemed possible combatants by the government?

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Quote:
I've basically said that MSNBC is made up of a bunch of left wing kooks that are a sham. I'd sooner trust Rush Limbaugh to be fair and balanced on something than anyone on MSNBC, in other words MSNBC is so bad that they have absolutely no credibility in my mind.
lolwut? Are you saying that you'd rather listen to a conservative radio guru who fancies Oxycontin than a supposed liberal TV network?
Quote:
Btw, I know quite well what McCarthyism is, and I'm rather insulted that you'd compare me with McCarthy.
Well my friend, you sound very much like him. From what we have heard from you it this thread, you seem to believe that any liberal is somehow automatically anti-American. Perhaps I'm just mistaken, but the term "left-wing kooks" is awfully pejorative in my point of view.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I've basically said that MSNBC is made up of a bunch of left wing kooks that are a sham.
Fair enough.

By the way, an eagle needs 2 wings to fly. Cut one off or favor one, and it falls out of the sky. Take that as you'd like.

Quote:
I'd sooner trust Rush Limbaugh to be fair and balanced on something than anyone on MSNBC, in other words MSNBC is so bad that they have absolutely no credibility in my mind.
Still, I got the feeling that by putting MSNBC into the ring with GE that you were insinuating that MSNBC is supporting terrorism and the killing of our troops. If so, I would have to call BS on the grounds of 1) no proof shown thus far and 2) finding excuses to call your enemies terrorists is as bad as McCarthy's finger pointing of communists.

Frankly, anyone that uses the terms "left-wing" "right-wing" "liberal" "conservative" "terrorists" "communist" "socialist" in a way that seems to insinuate that they are some kind of enemy destroys their own credibility and the credibility of anything they would like to pull up to prove their point. If people want to label people to make them easier to hate and point out in a gun fight, then go ahead. Don't expect me to do anything more then smile and treat your opinion like that of a 4 year old however.

I'm sure you view me as nothing more than a left-wing, socialist traitor to your country and frankly I'm fine with that. Whatever makes life easier I guess.

I guess I could comment further on McCarthyism, but I can't manage to reply to it without being very insulting so I'll just leave it at that.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:33 PM   #66
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Says who? Have they been deemed possible combatants by the government?
Says Federal Law: IRAN SANCTIONS, this is just an example there are others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX
If you ever go to a comic book store, try to find the Friendly Dictators Trading Cards. They might be fairly uncommon today, but I have my deck. Look 'em over, and you'll find some surprising former American allies.
I'm well aware of the fact our country hasn't always chosen the best allies (putting it mildly). I fail to see what the heck this has to do with selling military equipment to a country that is supplying IEDs to attack our troops with.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
lolwut? Are you saying that you'd rather listen to a conservative radio guru who fancies Oxycontin than a supposed liberal TV network?
That's about right, because at least when he gives opinions he's extremely honest about it, whereas the Liberal News Networks report their ideaology as news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX
Well my friend, you sound very much like him. From what we have heard from you it this thread, you seem to believe that any liberal is somehow automatically anti-American.
I actually have liberal friends, I don't mind people having a difference in opinion with me and having a civil discussion. I do mind being treated like I'm either stupid or a hate-monger because I don't agree with them.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
Perhaps I'm just mistaken, but the term "left-wing kooks" is awfully pejorative in my point of view.
A supposed objective journalist falling flat on his face to worship their 'messiah' Barack Obama would be a good example of being a left wing kook.

If they want to give their opinion fine, I don't care, I do mind when they report their opinion as news.

Another example of a left wing kook would be Michael Moore.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #67
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That's about right, because at least when he gives opinions he's extremely honest about it, whereas the Liberal and Conservative News Networks report their ideaology as news.
You see? Both sides, both conservative and liberal news stations both report their news with biased filler. If you would accuse MSNBC as having a liberal bias, then you can also accuse Fox News as having a conservative bias.

But to the point: Would a liberal or a conservative be considered un-American if he/she has different views than the current government?
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:48 PM   #68
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That's about right, because at least when he gives opinions he's extremely honest about it, whereas the Liberal News Networks report their ideaology as news.
I thought Fox News and Friends did the same thing. Seems you are simply favoring a wing to me.

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I actually have liberal friends, I don't mind people having a difference in opinion with me and having a civil discussion. I do mind being treated like I'm either stupid or a hate-monger because I don't agree with them.
The good old "I have a [blank] friend" defense. I'm sure they love it when you call them left-wing kooks and socialists as well.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. We're often much more subtle about our opinions in reality than we are online.

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A supposed objective journalist falling flat on his face to worship their 'messiah' Barack Obama would be a good example of being a left wing kook.
I'm loving the "I'm a good friend of left-wings" lines right above the "left wing kook" lines. It just makes Kavars that much more worth reading on a daily basis.

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If they want to give their opinion fine, I don't care, I do mind when they report their opinion as news.
Yet you complain and report posts when we call you on posting blogs and Fox News.

Hm. Fascinating.

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Another example of a left wing kook would be Michael Moore.
I'd personally put him in his own little category. Both the left and right tend to look down on Moore, and his main crowd seem to be select groups of "liberals" and "conservatives".
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:59 PM   #69
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You see? Both sides, both conservative and liberal news stations both report their news with biased filler.
At least the conservative station which there is only 1 compared to at least 5 liberal ones is honest about when it gives an opinion. The liberal media stations seem to think their opinions are the gospel truth and anyone that doesn't agree with them is evil.

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If you would accuse MSNBC as having a liberal bias, then you can also accuse Fox News as having a conservative bias.
You could argue that but the despite what certain studies show, their own data shows them to be bald-faced liars.

http://www.journalism.org/node/13436

Looks to me Fox News was a lot better at election coverage. I really don't care what their analysis says, I am just looking at the numbers.


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But to the point: Would a liberal or a conservative be considered un-American if he/she has different views than the current government?
If they are being completely dishonest I'd say they are unamerican and the liberal media has been so blatently dishonest this year, Sean Hannity is right, "Journalism died in this country in 2008."
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:08 PM   #70
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At least the conservative station which there is only 1 compared to at least 5 liberal ones is honest about when it gives an opinion. The liberal media stations seem to think their opinions are the gospel truth and anyone that doesn't agree with them is evil.
Isn't that what you are doing right now? Preaching your opinion as gospel and telling us they are evil?

I've listened to Rush and Savage. They are far from being below finger pointing and hate speech. You are just favoring those on your side of the Black White board and ignoring the blatant bias that your own media outlets and talk show hosts have.

You have already admitted they are conservative talk shows. Why don't you also admit they are biased towards their own cause and will exaggerate and twist words like anyone that wants to make people believe their opinion? What makes your talk show hosts so much more credible than the others?

The liberals call you "evil". Well the conservatives call the liberals un-american traitors.

Oh hey, that is a great segway back to the point of this thread.

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If they are being completely dishonest I'd say they are unamerican and the liberal media has been so blatently dishonest this year, Sean Hannity is right, "Journalism died in this country in 2008."
Wow, we lasted till 2008? That is impressive.

Personally its always been mostly dead anyway.
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:38 PM   #71
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Isn't that what you are doing right now? Preaching your opinion as gospel and telling us they are evil?
I haven't said all liberals are evil, seriously that's just plain stupid.

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I've listened to Rush and Savage. They are far from being below finger pointing and hate speech. You are just favoring those on your side of the Black White board and ignoring the blatant bias that your own media outlets and talk show hosts have.
Yeah I heard about some of the "hate" speech, I haven't listened to Savage but Rush I have listened to and I've noticed a lot of the charges of hate speech directed towards minorities was literally made up by the people bashing him.

Rush has never cheered when someone fell and broke their hip, the left wing nuts did when it happened to Nancy Reagan! The so called "hate speech" on the right is usually nothing compared to what the far left does on a regular basis.

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You have already admitted they are conservative talk shows. Why don't you also admit they are biased towards their own cause and will exaggerate and twist words like anyone that wants to make people believe their opinion? What makes your talk show hosts so much more credible than the others?
Difference between talk show and evening news, the evening news is supposed to try to be as objective as possible. Rush is honest about his opinions, the evening news on MSNBC tries to report their opinions as though it was what actually happened when it wasn't. That's why Rush is more trustworthy than MSNBC.

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The liberals call you "evil". Well the conservatives call the liberals un-american traitors.
I haven't called liberals in general that, I've been rather specific when referring to the media or specific individuals and normally I'm just saying they are not only biased but they are flat out dishonest. This year the mainstream media betrayed the American people to further their ideaology, pure and simple. They deliberately didn't dig into Obama's past while coming up with phony stories concerning McCain. Or did a hit job on Hillary Clinton, I really can't stand her, but the media calling her daughter a very derogatory word which I will not repeat is simply unacceptable.

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Look when we were fighting in World War II we had to ration things here at home to further the war effort.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:25 PM   #72
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I haven't said all liberals are evil, seriously that's just plain stupid.
Well, you're not very convincing, since most of the ideals that you have posted here have liberals being the scapegoat for all of America's problems.
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Yeah I heard about some of the "hate" speech, I haven't listened to Savage but Rush I have listened to and I've noticed a lot of the charges of hate speech directed towards minorities was literally made up by the people bashing him.
I suppose that this isn't a lie as well.
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Rush has never cheered when someone fell and broke their hip, the left wing nuts did when it happened to Nancy Reagan! The so called "hate speech" on the right is usually nothing compared to what the far left does on a regular basis.
There you go again, with the liberal bashing. How about this: Enough of the "liberal wacko, nutjob, etc." stuff. It's quite insulting and rather low-brow.
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Look when we were fighting in World War II we had to ration things here at home to further the war effort.
I suppose that includes using racial caricatures to poke fun at dictators.

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Old 12-02-2008, 09:44 AM   #73
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Well, you're not very convincing, since most of the ideals that you have posted here have liberals being the scapegoat for all of America's problems.
I haven't said that liberals cause all of America's problems either, I have my problem with some conservatives, the problem is that the far left tends to be treated as though they are the accepted norm.

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I suppose that this isn't a lie as well.
That was rather insensitive of him, in all honesty Micheal J Fox's Parkinsons occurred at an unusually young age putting it mildly. And while I disagree with some of what Rush apparently said based on the information you've provided I do feel I need to point out that pro-ponents of embryonic stem-cell research have been outright dishonest with the general public about how effective it can be.

For instance, they claim it will cure things that it can never possibly cure because the problem is a genetic abnormality.
Furthermore, they haven't been honest about the fact that the same results can be achieved with adult stem celms which doesn't have that same ethical issues that embryonic stem cell research carries with it.

Also to be completely honest Rush may have had a point concerning Michael J. Fox, there are a lot of drugs out now that can surpress the symptoms that Mr. Fox demonstrates and he is quite frankly a lot younger and probably doesn't have the sensitivity to medications that my grandfather had before he died.

Calling someone a whiner and wishing someone ill are two different things.

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Rush has never cheered when someone fell and broke their hip, the left wing nuts did when it happened to Nancy Reagan! The so called "hate speech" on the right is usually nothing compared to what the far left does on a regular basis.
There you go again, with the liberal bashing. How about this: Enough of the "liberal wacko, nutjob, etc." stuff. It's quite insulting and rather low-brow.
Actually it looks more like Rush was accusing of Michael J. Fox of semi-faking the severity of his Parkinsons. It wasn't hate speech, a lack of understanding on the part of Mr. Limbaugh, yes. However, someone falling and breaking their hip is pretty well understood, wishing someone had been hurt worse than they were and cheering when they fell and hurt themselves because of that fall is far worse.

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I suppose that includes using racial caricatures to poke fun at dictators.
The term German refers to a specific Nationality, it is not a race. Very few countries can make the claim that their Nationality is also a race and Germany isn't one of them.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:11 AM   #74
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wishing someone had been hurt worse than they were and cheering when they fell and hurt themselves because of that fall is far worse.
you keep saying this, but who was actually 'cheering' about Nancy Reagan? I didn't invite you to my 'Suck it, Nancy' party so how do you know there was cheering going on?

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The term German refers to a specific Nationality, it is not a race. Very few countries can make the claim that their Nationality is also a race and Germany isn't one of them.
Of course, because hurtful stereotypes are A-ok as long as they're not racially motivated.



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Old 12-02-2008, 11:59 AM   #75
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The term German refers to a specific Nationality, it is not a race. Very few countries can make the claim that their Nationality is also a race and Germany isn't one of them.
I wasn't referring to the German racial caricatures, but more or less the Japanese ones. That propaganda made them look utterly inhuman. And yes, you still haven't specified whether propaganda of any sort is acceptable if it is by America, "the good guys".
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:54 PM   #76
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The term German refers to a specific Nationality, it is not a race. Very few countries can make the claim that their Nationality is also a race and Germany isn't one of them.
I just wanted to toss in a personal, somewhat academic impression in here, though I've no intention of derailing the discussion itself.

"Race" was an ideal largely levelled by (commonly British) anthropologists of the 18-19th century as an academic term. It was based upon the erroneous belief that regional cultural groups held physical, skeletal and intellectual differences measureable by a scientific means (such as skull dimensions). It was complete hogwash, for one (due to common ancestry and complex evolutionary diversity), and secondly, by its blatant intentions to support colonialism led directly to other unfounded assertions like the Eugenics movement and its cousin, Nazism. Quite simply the entire proceedings were determined by dedicated anthropologists around the 1930's to be no more than "scientific racism."

By the 1930's disciplines such as anthropology had become far more accessible to those without noble lineage, in part due to sweeping changes in world politics and thus economic control. During impartial tests it was discovered there were as many variations within even isolated regional communities as there were outside the group, one of the early, strictly scientific allusions to common ancestry (which was backed by archaeological evidence and linguistics studies, prior to modern DNA research that ultimately confirmed and revolutionised suspicions).

At that time, for example new ethics among anthropologists were evolved so as to prevent the use of such studies and statistical data for political purposes in the future. One can peruse the American Anthropological Society website for more details regarding these (I know, yanks are actually good for something peaceful, well done).

So, firstly there are no races. No such thing, sorry. All the terms Mongoloid, Aboriginal, Inuit, etc. were thoroughly based in colonial interests of the 19th century and racism.
There are certainly regional cultures, and regional physical variations in terms of medical immunities and so on. But these are never tied to genetic lineage upon an ancestral scale, a point which is quite proved.

Well then, if there are no races, what then are these differences to be more correctly termed? Cultural and regional communities (and/or situational medical themes).

With this new insight, indeed certain cultural groupings formerly termed, incorrectly "races" do exist, but the differences may be hardly genetic at any given instance.

And Germanic is indeed one of the contemporaries.
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:23 PM   #77
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you keep saying this, but who was actually 'cheering' about Nancy Reagan? I didn't invite you to my 'Suck it, Nancy' party so how do you know there was cheering going on?
Huffington Post had people posting that up cheering about it, and saying stuff about they hoped Nancy would be hurt worse.

To my knowledge they ended up taking it down after it ended up being brought up on the O'Reilly Factor. Mr. O wasn't happy putting it mildly and he brought up a pattern of incidents and quite frankly humiliated them.

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Of course, because hurtful stereotypes are A-ok as long as they're not racially motivated.
You have to understand that we were at war at the time and stuff like that can and does happen. To be frank, tempers were extremely high after Pearl Harbor, and while we saw the propaganda stuff during that war, we don't see things like that about the Japanese today. To be perfectly blunt they had propaganda stuff that bashed Americans.
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:27 PM   #78
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You have to understand that we were at war at the time and stuff like that can and does happen. To be frank, tempers were extremely high after Pearl Harbor, and while we saw the propaganda stuff during that war, we don't see things like that about the Japanese today. To be perfectly blunt they had propaganda stuff that bashed Americans.
Yeah, but they weren't the ones who put its own citizens in de facto prison camps. I suppose it would be perfectly fine these days to do the same thing with suspected terrorists who are American citizens.
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:16 PM   #79
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Yeah, but they weren't the ones who put its own citizens in de facto prison camps. I suppose it would be perfectly fine these days to do the same thing with suspected terrorists who are American citizens.
Rape of Nanking.

Japan abused its own people and the Chinese heavily during World War 2. We may have put our own people in camps, but they held a Genocide.

I know where you are coming from, but there were hardly any innocent bystanders in World War 2.
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:31 PM   #80
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Huffington Post had people posting that up cheering about it, and saying stuff about they hoped Nancy would be hurt worse.
I see, so an article written by a person that is insensitive about Nancy Reagan hurting herself and suddenly it's some kind of group liberal conspiracy of hate? Makes sense to me.



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