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Old 12-22-2008, 03:59 AM   #1
mur'phon
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How to close Guantanamo?

A small question for those who say Obama is going to close Gitmo. Or, more precisely, what to do with the inmates?
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:04 PM   #2
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Considering that there are some who were probably arrested without due cause and not given habeus corpus that might be the reason why they might be released. Technically speaking the immates at Gitmo were illegally detained under international and US law, especially those that were/are US citizens.

I did hear that some trials were being convened for the immates though it sounds like a last ditch effort on part of the Bush Admn. I really don't know what to think.

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Old 12-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #3
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Well, you see, many of the people in Gitmo ( military slang for Guantanamo) are terrorist, and terrorist don't have a country to call home, unlike the Iraqi War wehre the Iraqi soldiers had a specific rules do to the fact they were called Iraqis.
The terrorists don't ahve a place were they could make something like a last ditch stand, since they are everywhere, so thats why many trials were postponed or never held, we are still learning what to do with the gray areas.


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Old 12-22-2008, 10:18 PM   #4
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The terrorists dont need a place to call home, there are safe houses in probably every single country on earth for them.



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Old 12-22-2008, 10:36 PM   #5
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The military has plenty of places to take the 'enemy combattants', some places better than others.


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Old 12-22-2008, 11:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
A small question for those who say Obama is going to close Gitmo. Or, more precisely, what to do with the inmates?
We'll be sending them to your house. Thank you for volunteering

In all seriousness though. The problem isn't so much the closing of Gitmo as it is where do we send them. Some of the originating countries don't want them back. I think we'll see another president elected in(maybe more than one) before we see the Gitmo camp closed.
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:54 AM   #7
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GtMO has been around for decades. Almost a century. There is no reason to close the base. This is just a ploy by liberals to gain the "omg, those poor, poor terrorists. What on earth have we been doing? We haven't been pampering them, we're such terrible people," vote. Surprisingly enough, the majority of the country do not feel like that.

However, it's all political bulljive, and guess what? It'll float. After this election, I have lost all faith in the American voter. We, as a nation, were dumb enough to elect (not only) Clinton... TWICE... Bush... TWICE.... and now Obama? Wow. No wonder the entire planet thinks our education system is horrible.

What it boils down is: we're cattle. (well, perhaps that isn't so bad. I've always liked a good "Moo" every now and then.) And the politicians have the prods. The ones in power are telling us it's "bad" to detain those that wish us harm. Even though these guys want to take our lives, it's not ok for us to NOT give them the same treatment we would give AMERICANS. (double negative ftw) "It's a violation of the Geneva Convention," some liberals say.

<snipped flame bait>


Last edited by jonathan7; 12-23-2008 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Removed baiting comment - j7
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
GtMO has been around for decades. Almost a century. There is no reason to close the base. This is just a ploy by liberals to gain the "omg, those poor, poor terrorists. What on earth have we been doing? We haven't been pampering them, we're such terrible people," vote. Surprisingly enough, the majority of the country do not feel like that.
actually none of the detainees there have been convicted or even charged with a crime and most people do feel that way since it's pretty <snipped> barbaric.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
Even though these guys want to take our lives, it's not ok for us to NOT give them the same treatment we would give AMERICANS. (double negative ftw) "It's a violation of the Geneva Convention," some liberals say.
yes those crazy liberals and their post-medieval mindset we should start shackling people in town squares and televising executions. your logic is essentially that we should take a cue from terrorists with regards to treatment of prisoners.

<snipped response to flame bait>



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Last edited by jonathan7; 12-23-2008 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Removed responce to bait.
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Old 12-23-2008, 08:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
GtMO has been around for decades. Almost a century. There is no reason to close the base. This is just a ploy by liberals to gain the "omg, those poor, poor terrorists. What on earth have we been doing? We haven't been pampering them, we're such terrible people," vote. Surprisingly enough, the majority of the country do not feel like that.
Yeah, America represents freedom; but won't give people due process, if these men are guilty of terrorism they should be tried in a court of law. Though, one suspects that the fact they haven't just means there are a lot of people wrongly held there. Nice to see innocent until proven guilty and freedom of speech reign still. What were we fighting this "War on Terror" (most moronic name ever btw) for? To defend out liberties? So this is how liberty dies, to a thundering of bombs?

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What it boils down is: we're cattle. (well, perhaps that isn't so bad. I've always liked a good "Moo" every now and then.) And the politicians have the prods. The ones in power are telling us it's "bad" to detain those that wish us harm. Even though these guys want to take our lives, it's not ok for us to NOT give them the same treatment we would give AMERICANS. (double negative ftw) "It's a violation of the Geneva Convention," some liberals say.
Evidence? I wonder how you would feel if someone locks you up for 5 years without charge; the courts are there for a reason, its not about letting terrorists run free, it's about Justice. And just locking people up for no reason is not justice; if they are guilty they should be tried, and put in prison.

It is in violation of the Geneva Convention, (and funnily enough torture is against it too) but more than that, it is the greatest own goal in this history of anything. The fact it's there encourages people to become terrorists, because they are outraged at the injustice of it all.

And some of my best friends are fighting in Iraq right now - so don't tell me I don't realise the realities.



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Last edited by jonathan7; 12-23-2008 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
GtMO has been around for decades. Almost a century. There is no reason to close the base. This is just a ploy by liberals to gain the "omg, those poor, poor terrorists. What on earth have we been doing? We haven't been pampering them, we're such terrible people," vote. Surprisingly enough, the majority of the country do not feel like that.
Wait, what? We've locked these men up for no reason other than suspected terrorism, and have given them no trial, and when someone tries to defend them, they're automatically against our country? In the Boston Massacre, our future President defended the British soldiers: does that automatically make him against our country? I say that the men in Guantanamo deserve a trial.

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However, it's all political bulljive, and guess what? It'll float. After this election, I have lost all faith in the American voter. We, as a nation, were dumb enough to elect (not only) Clinton... TWICE... Bush... TWICE.... and now Obama? Wow. No wonder the entire planet thinks our education system is horrible.
I dare say that the rest of the world dislikes our education system for different reasons than for our voting habits.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
What it boils down is: we're cattle. (well, perhaps that isn't so bad. I've always liked a good "Moo" every now and then.) And the politicians have the prods. The ones in power are telling us it's "bad" to detain those that wish us harm.
Generally, the term used is "Sheep People," or "Sheeple."

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Even though these guys want to take our lives, it's not ok for us to NOT give them the same treatment we would give AMERICANS. (double negative ftw) "It's a violation of the Geneva Convention," some liberals say.
Though recently used, "An eye for an eye makes us all blind." If they kill us, and we kill them, what's happened? We're right back where we started, with a few less people.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
GtMO has been around for decades. Almost a century. There is no reason to close the base.
The base may have been around since 1898, but 'Gitmo' has only been around since 2002. I don't think anyone has an actual problem with the US Navy Base - it's the presence of the detainment camp that people have issue with.






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Old 12-23-2008, 11:04 AM   #12
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Wait, what? We've locked these men up for no reason other than suspected terrorism, and have given them no trial, and when someone tries to defend them, they're automatically against our country? In the Boston Massacre, our future President defended the British soldiers: does that automatically make him against our country? I say that the men in Guantanamo deserve a trial.
Bad logic. Those were SOLDIERS, and as such they had every right to a trial and due process. The people that are in Gitmo, however, are TERRORISTS.

There is a difference between the two, a soldier wears a Uniform, owes allegiance to his/her country, has sworn an oath to protect their country, and, for the most part, follows the rules of war. Meanwhile, a terrorist does not wear a uniform, owe any allegiance to any country, sworn any oaths to protect a country, and follow the rules of war.

So, thus, they are NOT soldiers.

Ergo, the Geneva Convention does not apply to Terrorists.

So, I guess we can torture them now, without breaking the Geneva Convention.

Note: The "qualities of a soldier" are not meant to be an all encompassing definition


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:07 AM   #13
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Bad logic. Those were SOLDIERS, and as such they had every right to a trial and due process. The people that are in Gitmo, however, are TERRORISTS.

There is a difference between the two, a soldier wears a Uniform, owes allegiance to his/her country, has sworn an oath to protect their country, and, for the most part, follows the rules of war. Meanwhile, a terrorist does not wear a uniform, owe any allegiance to any country, sworn any oaths to protect a country, and follow the rules of war.

So, thus, they are NOT soldiers.

Ergo, the Geneva Convention does not apply to Terrorists.

So, I guess we can torture them now, without breaking the Geneva Convention.

Note: The "qualities of a soldier" are not meant to be an all encompassing definition
actually, if someone isn't tried and convicted of something they're civilians. i read that in a law book somewhere.



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Old 12-23-2008, 11:12 AM   #14
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Whether they're legitimate soldiers or not, they should at least be treated like POWs under the Geneva Accords.

We were not the People's Republic of Vietnam the last time I checked.


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:16 AM   #15
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Whether they're legitimate soldiers or not, they should at least be treated like POWs under the Geneva Accords.

We were not the People's Republic of Vietnam the last time I checked.
Show spoiler


Source

Sorry, Terrorists aren't included in that definition of who the Accords apply to. So, I guess, I'm correct.


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:21 AM   #16
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I know they're not, but they should be treated like captured soldiers regardless; not for their benefit, but for ours.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:22 AM   #17
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Huh?????

I'm afraid I don't follow.


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:24 AM   #18
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Because maybe if they're treated humanely, they, and possible future generations won't be so inclined to blow up buses and buildings?






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Old 12-23-2008, 11:25 AM   #19
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Right. I would LOVE for people to go to Iraq and experience suppressive fire from a school house or clearly marked hospital, and THEN get back to me on how these foreign nationals deserve to have the Geneva Convention applied to them, even though they are not uniformed soldiers, and clearly have no regard for the accords of the Geneva Convention.

Now, not every single person in GitMO is an enemy combatant. Some have merely been suspected of terrorism, or aiding terrorists. For those people, yes, trials SHOULD be applied, in a fair court of law, not a military tribunal. However, for the enemy combatants, those who took shots at me, my brothers and sisters, and other NATO forces... military tribunal, if anything. These people knew what they were doing when they engaged us. You do NOT fire a weapon at someone, unless you intend to kill them. Most (not all) of these detainees are in GitMO because they fired at us. They intended to kill us. They should suffer the consequences of such action.

Just so we're clear, this post has been made on 100% recycled forum php, not intended to cause any harm, grief, or otherwise unhappy feelings to anyone who may, or may not be reading it.


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Old 12-23-2008, 11:27 AM   #20
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Quote:
Huh?????

I'm afraid I don't follow.
Do you think that we're any better than they are when we hold them unlawfully and torture them like that? I never said that I thought that they deserve to be treated humanely, but I think that they should be, regardless. We're not animals.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:31 AM   #21
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Forgive me. I used the word "loony," and that has somehow earned me an infraction, apparently. Heh. At any rate, allow me to re-post the "flame-bait ridden" section of my post, only without the word "loony."
lightweight.

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Right. I would LOVE for people to go to Iraq and experience suppressive fire from a school house or clearly marked hospital, and THEN get back to me on how these foreign nationals deserve to have the Geneva Convention applied to them, even though they are not uniformed soldiers, and clearly have no regard for the accords of the Geneva Convention.
yeah, that's still not relevant to the topic at hand. we haven't proved that many of the detainees at guantanamo bay have done anything, and even if they have, that doesn't mean we can treat them however we wish.

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Just so we're clear, this post has been made on 100% recycled forum php, not intended to cause any harm, grief, or otherwise unhappy feelings to anyone who may, or may not be reading it.
actually it would be made by php and made on mysql



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Old 12-23-2008, 12:56 PM   #22
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The military has plenty of places to take the 'enemy combattants', some places better than others.
Such as? A lot of the military bases in the US also have schools for little kids nearby cause quite a few military people have families. Furthermore if you let them in the US proper you're setting up a circus as they demand all these legal tricks to try to accuse the troops of not reading them their miranda rights among other things when the military captured them on a battlefield in some cases while still being shot at.


Anyways I'm going to have to agree with RogueForums on some of his/her points, not all of them but some of them. It's easy to sit here and complain that someone should have done this or that from a couple thousand miles away. But quite frankly if you think you can do a better job, how bout you go volunteer to join the military.
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Old 12-23-2008, 01:48 PM   #23
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Such as? A lot of the military bases in the US also have schools for little kids nearby cause quite a few military people have families. Furthermore if you let them in the US proper you're setting up a circus as they demand all these legal tricks to try to accuse the troops of not reading them their miranda rights among other things when the military captured them on a battlefield in some cases while still being shot at.
damn those pesky "rights"! the u.s. has military bases all over the world, and while this may shock you, many of them aren't near schools. the u.s. has a larger defense budget than any other nation in the world and you're saying the military doesn't have anyplace to put prisoners?

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Anyways I'm going to have to agree with RogueForums on some of his/her points, not all of them but some of them. It's easy to sit here and complain that someone should have done this or that from a couple thousand miles away. But quite frankly if you think you can do a better job, how bout you go volunteer to join the military.
you're concurring with a logical fallacy.



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Old 12-23-2008, 01:49 PM   #24
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Now, not every single person in GitMO is an enemy combatant. Some have merely been suspected of terrorism, or aiding terrorists. For those people, yes, trials SHOULD be applied, in a fair court of law, not a military tribunal. However, for the enemy combatants, those who took shots at me, my brothers and sisters, and other NATO forces... military tribunal, if anything. These people knew what they were doing when they engaged us. You do NOT fire a weapon at someone, unless you intend to kill them. Most (not all) of these detainees are in GitMO because they fired at us. They intended to kill us. They should suffer the consequences of such action.
So, then if you were captured by the enemy you think they should be able to treat you however they want? Because clearly, you are an enemy combatant to them, you fired weapons with the intent to kill them.

That's the problem with not following the rules, is you make it OK for everyone else to not follow the rules. You can't complain about their cruelty if you are just as cruel.


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Old 12-23-2008, 02:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TheRogueForums View Post
Right. I would LOVE for people to go to Iraq and experience suppressive fire from a school house or clearly marked hospital, and THEN get back to me on how these foreign nationals deserve to have the Geneva Convention applied to them, even though they are not uniformed soldiers, and clearly have no regard for the accords of the Geneva Convention.
You know it's a common thing in war to de-humanise the enemy, but the above behaviour is no better than the terrorists. Further more I didn't join the military so it's not my job to get shot at, further more I fail to see how the military getting shot at has anything to do with due process. If enemy combatants are caught in war, the are POW's; if they have broken any laws then they should be tried.

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Now, not every single person in GitMO is an enemy combatant. Some have merely been suspected of terrorism, or aiding terrorists. For those people, yes, trials SHOULD be applied, in a fair court of law, not a military tribunal. However, for the enemy combatants, those who took shots at me, my brothers and sisters, and other NATO forces... military tribunal, if anything. These people knew what they were doing when they engaged us. You do NOT fire a weapon at someone, unless you intend to kill them. Most (not all) of these detainees are in GitMO because they fired at us. They intended to kill us. They should suffer the consequences of such action.
Shocking fact, not all Iraqi's want us in there country - I'd imagine if your wife and kids had just been blown up by a stray missile you would be too happy with an army.

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Anyways I'm going to have to agree with RogueForums on some of his/her points, not all of them but some of them. It's easy to sit here and complain that someone should have done this or that from a couple thousand miles away. But quite frankly if you think you can do a better job, how bout you go volunteer to join the military.
Sorry, at any point have I criticised the armed forces? It's nothing to do with them that people are locked up at Gitmo, a soldiers job is by definition to follow orders (precisely why I would never be a soldier, following orders without question is not something a member of the intelligentsia does). It's the politicians fault that Gitmo exsists, though I dare say some of the supervisors etc should answers charges for Gitmo. The only difference between the good guys and the bad guys in the world, is how the good guys treat the bad guys in defeat. Though having faced down someone with a gun, I know exactly how I would react.



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Old 12-23-2008, 02:07 PM   #26
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So, then if you were captured by the enemy you think they should be able to treat you however they want? Because clearly, you are an enemy combatant to them, you fired weapons with the intent to kill them.
They are in better living conditions than people whom end up staying a night at the local YMCA, and far better conditions that people in prison.

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That's the problem with not following the rules, is you make it OK for everyone else to not follow the rules. You can't complain about their cruelty if you are just as cruel.
Last I checked their conditions are better than what we see in prisons and we've tried to return them to their countries of origin, but their home countries won't take them back.
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Old 12-23-2008, 02:18 PM   #27
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I’m really glad someone has checked on the conditions of the prisoners being held at Guantanamo first hand. I will sleep better knowing they are better off there than in a local prison. I guess my fears of weatherboarding were unfounded. The evil mainstream media portrayed it as torture, but I guess it is just the name given to some fancy form of water message. Good to know.
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:45 PM   #28
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Im really glad someone has checked on the conditions of the prisoners being held at Guantanamo first hand. I will sleep better knowing they are better off there than in a local prison. I guess my fears of weatherboarding were unfounded. The evil mainstream media portrayed it as torture, but I guess it is just the name given to some fancy form of water message. Good to know.
Only a handful of people have been waterboarded, probably less than 20 people and those were high profile members of the leadership of Al Qaeda.
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:02 PM   #29
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Only a handful of people have been waterboarded, probably less than 20 people and those were high profile members of the leadership of Al Qaeda.
well, as long as we think they're terrorists and someone high ranking says so and they keep the torture count under let's say 2 dozen, i dont see an issue here.



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Old 12-23-2008, 05:12 PM   #30
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Only a handful of people have been waterboarded, probably less than 20 people and those were high profile members of the leadership of Al Qaeda.
Can anyone find the key word in this sentence?

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The entire point is there is no way to know how may have been tortured. It could be 1 or it could be 200. There is no oversight so no way of knowing the exact number.
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Old 12-23-2008, 05:53 PM   #31
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They are in better living conditions than people whom end up staying a night at the local YMCA, and far better conditions that people in prison.
you clearly are unaware of prison conditions. They are quite good.

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Last I checked their conditions are better than what we see in prisons and we've tried to return them to their countries of origin, but their home countries won't take them back.
Last I checked, you can't just waltz into gitmo and check on how the bad guys are. From what I've read and heard, it's pretty horrible, and every last one of them would rather be in prison where they are afforded actual rights, than in Gitmo.


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Old 12-23-2008, 07:18 PM   #32
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Last I checked, you can't just waltz into gitmo and check on how the bad guys are. From what I've read and heard, it's pretty horrible, and every last one of them would rather be in prison where they are afforded actual rights, than in Gitmo.
Last I checked a lot of them would jump at the chance to slit the throat of an American.

Seriously, I haven't seen any public outcry concerning prisons in China, in my opinion this is just another attempt to blame America for the world's problems.
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:46 PM   #33
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China does something I find apprehensible, so it makes it all right if we do it too.

If I am more concern with what America does when compared to what China does there is a reason… I am an American. As such, I hold my country to a higher standard than the rest of the world.

These debates are really starting to worry me. It sounds like a bunch three year olds. “But mommy, China (or CBS, MSNBC…) did it first.” Whatever happened to personal responsibility and holding yourself to a higher standard than you do others?
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Old 12-23-2008, 07:47 PM   #34
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Last I checked a lot of them would jump at the chance to slit the throat of an American.
first off, that has nothing to do with this. and secondly, after the way the u.s. has treated them, i can't blame them

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Seriously, I haven't seen any public outcry concerning prisons in China,
you aren't paying attention then.

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These debates are really starting to worry me. It sounds like a bunch three year olds. “But mommy, China (or CBS, MSNBC…) did it first.” Whatever happened to personal responsibility and holding yourself to a higher standard than you do others?
pre-9/11 mindset



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Old 12-23-2008, 09:41 PM   #35
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Article 4

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements...

<snipped>

Source

Sorry, Terrorists aren't included in that definition of who the Accords apply to. So, I guess, I'm correct.
Actually, I propose that you are wrong, under the assumption that these 'terrorists' are fighting to free their land from US forces/influence. I'm not condoning their actions- far from it (I'm of the 'diplomatic solutions' opinions), but, rather, suggest that they are doing what they figure necessary to save their land. Do (we) not have troops stationed in (their) homes, occupying their nation?

'They,' of course, is a subjective term, but, in this case, I would say that the word 'they' means a belligerent against the US and allies.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:26 PM   #36
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Actually, I propose that you are wrong, under the assumption that these 'terrorists' are fighting to free their land from US forces/influence. I'm not condoning their actions- far from it (I'm of the 'diplomatic solutions' opinions), but, rather, suggest that they are doing what they figure necessary to save their land. Do (we) not have troops stationed in (their) homes, occupying their nation?
That would fly if they were actually from the countries they were fighting in. Most of them are from other countries and trained in yet another country. They aren't fighting to liberate their country they are fighting to impose their warped ideology on people.

Face it there are some people you can't negotiate with.

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'They,' of course, is a subjective term, but, in this case, I would say that the word 'they' means a belligerent against the US and allies.
Considering they weren't in uniform, under the military code I believe they can technically be shot as spies.
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:15 AM   #37
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Face it there are some people you can't negotiate with.
or debate with.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:08 AM   #38
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Oh, that's true enough. Someone comes in and posts a non liberal opinion on the matter, and gets blasted.

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Old 12-24-2008, 03:57 AM   #39
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Last I checked a lot of them would jump at the chance to slit the throat of an American.
I'm pretty sure you'd do the same to them.

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Seriously, I haven't seen any public outcry concerning prisons in China,
There's quite a bit of it. Coming from INSIDE China? That's hard to tell since the Chinese government prevents 99% of all information they don't like from leaving the country.

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in my opinion this is just another attempt to blame America for the world's problems.
Gitmo is not "the world's problems" it's an American problem. Therefore, it is of higher concern to ME as an American, than prisons in china.

That and quite honestly, I have no expectation of China being democratic or upholding anything remotely resembling freedom. While on the other hand, I do hold America to that expectation of upholding freedom, liberty, civil rights, justice, fairness, ect...


Like I said before, you want to fight on their level, fine, but don't expect to be able to be self-righteous about it.


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Old 12-24-2008, 08:06 AM   #40
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Oh, that's true enough. Someone comes in and posts a non liberal opinion on the matter, and gets blasted.
This isn't a liberal conservative matter, your advocating locking people up indefinably without trial, and by extension of what happens at Gitmo, arguing that torture is acceptable. Perhaps the over-whelming reaction in this thread, has something to do with the fact that is wrong, opposed to anything else. I can see several centrists and conservatives who have disagreed with Gitmo in this thread, suggesting it has nothing to do with a "non-liberal" opinion.

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Considering they weren't in uniform, under the military code I believe they can technically be shot as spies.
Someone hasn't reviewed military etiquette since WW2. Though at least if they were shot; they'd of had a trail of some description.

Furthermore what China does is irrelevant, China doesn't represent "Freedom" so I don't expect the Chinese Government to behave well. China is entirely irrelevant to this discussion; all Gitmo does, is give the terroists more valuable and more effective ammunition than any that uses gun power.



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