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Old 12-29-2008, 10:18 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Well problem with the argument they are giving is that the accommodations are better at Gitmo than the US Prison system. Their living conditions are arguably better than what the guards get.
saying the detainees are being tortured in a classy prison cell isn't a very convincing argument.



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Old 12-29-2008, 10:35 PM   #82
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saying the detainees are being tortured in a classy prison cell isn't a very convincing argument.
Very few of the detainees were tortured, and those that were were extremely high up the command structure of Al Qaeda, it was a situation where lives were at stake and several terror attacks were thwarted thanks to the information gained.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:44 PM   #83
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Very few of the detainees were tortured, and those that were were extremely high up the command structure of Al Qaeda, it was a situation where lives were at stake and several terror attacks were thwarted thanks to the information gained.
you have no way of knowing any of this.



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Old 12-30-2008, 01:54 AM   #84
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you have no way of knowing any of this.
Despite the fact that some here appear to believe I'm on the pro torture side, I think the real issue is that there is any torture at all. While I agree with the detainment, I disagree with torture.

All of the detainees have been given tribunals to determine their status as combattants. Though really they should use the 190-8 instead of the rather arbitrary CSRT.

As for Jamil al-Banna:
While it isn't enough to hold a person(it's enough to at least look at him), he was close to Abu Qatada a known associate of al-Qaeda. Thin, but at least there was a reason.
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:38 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Well problem with the argument they are giving is that the accommodations are better at Gitmo than the US Prison system. Their living conditions are arguably better than what the guards get.
So, going by your statement, I trust you have first-hand experience of everything you've described.

That is -

1. You must have spent time in a US Prison Cell.
2. You must also have spent time in 'Gitmo'.
3. You must have also spent time as a guard there.

If not, how can you possibly report on the conditions there, other than hearing from either the Defense Department, or whatever reporters and Journalists which are allowed in there (who are no doubt paid by the Government to write favourable things)?






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Old 12-30-2008, 05:07 PM   #86
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If you had paid attention to Fox News at all which didn't have an ax to grind when it comes to President Bush, they have had reporters there several times.
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If you had paid attention to Fox News at all which didn't have an ax to grind when it comes to President Bush, they have had reporters there several times.
...And i'll bet that they're only allowed there in the first place because they promise not to say bad things about it.






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Old 12-30-2008, 05:34 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If you had paid attention to Fox News at all which didn't have an ax to grind when it comes to President Bush, they have had reporters there several times.
Because you're so good at paying attention to all those "liberal-tilt news sources" out there, and listening to what they have to say.



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Old 12-30-2008, 05:47 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
If you had paid attention to Fox News at all which didn't have an ax to grind when it comes to President Bush, they have had reporters there several times.
yep, and i'll bet the guards there walked them around the torture facilities and showed them every bit of the prison there.



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Old 12-30-2008, 05:55 PM   #90
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yep, and i'll bet the guards there walked them around the torture facilities and showed them every bit of the prison there.
[sarcasm]And yes here is the Iron Maiden over on your left[/sarcasm]

Seriously, that was Abu Grabe (sp?) that had incidents of torture and those people involved were dealt with. (not sure who all got convicted but the point remains)
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:58 PM   #91
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Eh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...mo.humanrights

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=8090

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/18/git...ees/index.html

Do you really want me to continue?



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Old 12-30-2008, 05:58 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
[sarcasm]And yes here is the Iron Maiden over on your left[/sarcasm]

Seriously, that was Abu Grabe (sp?) that had incidents of torture and those people involved were dealt with. (not sure who all got convicted but the point remains)
yeah, all the low level guards who were ordered to torture people got charged. and if you think torture is restricted to just abu ghraib that's pretty naive.



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Old 12-30-2008, 06:02 PM   #93
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Seriously, that was Abu Grabe (sp?) that had incidents of torture and those people involved were dealt with. (not sure who all got convicted but the point remains)
How do you know that it didn't happen elsewhere, such as Guantanamo?
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:16 PM   #94
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How do you know that it didn't happen elsewhere, such as Guantanamo?
To turn it around how do you know they did?
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:18 PM   #95
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To turn it around how do you know they did?
woah hey look at that



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Old 01-01-2009, 02:34 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
Or, more precisely, what to do with the inmates?
To finally, and perhaps potentially answer Murph's original question:

UK Call to Help Close Guantanamo.






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Old 01-01-2009, 07:08 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
To finally, and perhaps potentially answer Murph's original question:

UK Call to Help Close Guantanamo.
While I realize that not all Gitmo inmates are terrorists, I don't think it's wise to "resettle" the ones that are in countries that are already having difficulty with their Muslim populations.


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Old 01-01-2009, 09:29 PM   #98
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If those are your star sources, your case is in real trouble. Considering, I don't believe any of them have even been to Gitmo in the first place. And some of these stories you're bringing up were outright proven false.

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Newsweek magazine on Monday retracted an article alleging abuse of the Koran at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility which sparked deadly anti-U.S. protests in Afghanistan and other Islamic countries.
-- http://archive.japantoday.com/jp/news/337333/all

Corroborating Source
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156755,00.html

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Old 01-01-2009, 09:36 PM   #99
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Yet you, who has also never been to Gitmo, are enlightened enough to know that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfy
Very few of the detainees were tortured, and those that were were extremely high up the command structure of Al Qaeda, it was a situation where lives were at stake and several terror attacks were thwarted thanks to the information gained.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:37 PM   #100
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If those are your star sources, your case is in real trouble. Considering, I don't believe any of them have even been to Gitmo in the first place.
Then please explain, in great detail, the entire Guantanamo prison complex, from its cells to its mess halls. Seeing as you probably didn't read any of the articles, you'd find that in the second paragraph of the CNN one states that the research was carried out by an independent party, not by CNN themselves. And I'm still laughing, seeing as you're completely tossing out the truth, even when it's been backed up by three separate sources.
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Old 01-01-2009, 09:58 PM   #101
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Then please explain, in great detail, the entire Guantanamo prison complex, from its cells to its mess halls. Seeing as you probably didn't read any of the articles, you'd find that in the second paragraph of the CNN one states that the research was carried out by an independent party, not by CNN themselves. And I'm still laughing, seeing as you're completely tossing out the truth, even when it's been backed up by three separate sources.
Uh is this any relation to the Article Newsweek was forced to retract? This sounds like the "soldier" saying she participated in war crimes in Iraq, and Rush Limbaugh proved her story false because she had never been to Iraq.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:23 PM   #102
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uh does your little newsweek tangent or your rush limbaugh anecdote have anything to do with the discussion? because it sounds like it doesn't. desperation is an ugly cologne garfield, stop attacking three different sources because you don't like the facts.



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Old 01-01-2009, 10:46 PM   #103
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Uh is this any relation to the Article Newsweek was forced to retract? This sounds like the "soldier" saying she participated in war crimes in Iraq, and Rush Limbaugh proved her story false because she had never been to Iraq.


What the **** does Newsweek have to do with anything? The sources Jmac quoted (posted by J7) weren't Newsweek. Not Newsweek.

NOT NEWSWEEK.

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Old 01-03-2009, 04:24 PM   #104
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Fine, I'm having my last and final jab at Gitmo...

Gitmo, violates both the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

Observe;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Declaration of Independance
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
Gitmo is not something that can ever be in line with the Declaration of Independence, as Gitmo is the antithesis of the above, and of the Bill of rights....

Now the main thing of the Bill of rights violated by Gitmo is this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill of Rights
AMENDMENT XIII

Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Furthermore of course;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill of Rights
Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Oh and another bit;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill of Rights
Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
What is the point of the Bill of Rights if you choose to violate it at your own convenience, sure the guys held may not be your citizens, but the fore-fathers would be turning in there graves over it, and indeed you make the Bill of Rights not worth the paper its printed on by not observing it (which is a shame as Thomas Jefferson really knew what he was doing when he came up with them both).



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Old 01-05-2009, 11:39 AM   #105
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jonathan7, I’m not even sure that is relevant. American has pretty much done away with the Bill of Rights since 2001 in order to protect ourselves from terrorist.
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Nice post


That said, I’ll say it again. The only reason to have a place like Guantanamo, on foreign soil, is to attempt to circumvent our own laws.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:59 PM   #106
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Which does nothing more than feed our desire to be an imperialist power with this neocolonialism. We just hide behind our "humanitarian" efforts to make us look good.

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Old 01-22-2009, 12:03 PM   #107
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Obama Orders Guantanamo Closure.

Of course, the question still remains - what to do with the inmates?






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Old 01-22-2009, 07:47 PM   #108
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harvest their organs and push the rest into the sea



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Old 01-22-2009, 11:16 PM   #109
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Of course, the question still remains - what to do with the inmates?
Soylent Green?
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:01 PM   #110
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And, more news from gitmo, via secret military source , the pres only wants to close teh prison, everything else should be left there, which makes even less sense. all gitmo really is is a prison, so then all thats left is just a base that has no value anymore.


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Old 01-26-2009, 05:03 PM   #111
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Which does nothing more than feed our desire to be an imperialist power with this neocolonialism. We just hide behind our "humanitarian" efforts to make us look good.
Our first contender for Kavar's Post of the Year.
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:04 PM   #112
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And, more news from gitmo, via secret military source , the pres only wants to close teh prison, everything else should be left there, which makes even less sense. all gitmo really is is a prison, so then all thats left is just a base that has no value anymore.
Yes, that's what the order said, close the prison.

The base does in fact have value, and it makes no sense to completely abandon our post in Cuba.

_EW_



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Old 01-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #113
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True, true. But the its just a place in the middle of an island. with a lake in the middle. Ofcourse, I haven't been studying military tactics or stuff like that lately, so for all I know, it could be the best spot inthe world for a base. BUt I still think its mostly a Prison and without it its just a base. But I wuld have to ask my dad about it, after all, he would know, he was stationed there.


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Old 01-29-2009, 12:33 AM   #114
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True, true. But the its just a place in the middle of an island. with a lake in the middle. Ofcourse, I haven't been studying military tactics or stuff like that lately, so for all I know, it could be the best spot inthe world for a base. BUt I still think its mostly a Prison and without it its just a base. But I wuld have to ask my dad about it, after all, he would know, he was stationed there.
It's highly strategic for its position on Cuba. While Cuba-Russia relations are not the same as what they once were, many have never forgotten the Cuban missile crisis. The US wants to keep a close eye on a Communist country that is within missile range.


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Old 01-29-2009, 09:36 AM   #115
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It's highly strategic for its position on Cuba. While Cuba-Russia relations are not the same as what they once were, many have never forgotten the Cuban missile crisis. The US wants to keep a close eye on a Communist country that is within missile range.
Which IMO, doesn't make too much sense, especially when the US opened diplomatic relations with Vietnam. The Vietnamese communist government, IIRC, has taken far more American lives than Castro's, right? Common sense states that the Us should open foreign relations with Cuba, though past grudges and attitudes have rendered that option dead.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:00 AM   #116
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you have no way of knowing any of this.
Actually I have found a source that only 3 people were tortured at Gitmo, and they were all Al Qaeda leaders.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....2&postcount=84

There is a link to the post where I gave the source.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:35 PM   #117
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thank god the director of the cia was around to downplay what happened there.



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Old 01-29-2009, 06:11 PM   #118
GarfieldJL
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Originally Posted by jmac7142 View Post
thank god the director of the cia was around to downplay what happened there.
He didn't downplay anything, the media was just guilty of exagerating (putting it mildly) the scope of what happened (as usual).
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:47 PM   #119
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I believe putting the number tortured at three is going to depend on the person’s definition of torture. We should remember that the Bush administration was animate that waterboarding was not torture. Personally I do consider waterboarding torture.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:48 AM   #120
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I believe putting the number tortured at three is going to depend on the person’s definition of torture. We should remember that the Bush administration was animate that waterboarding was not torture. Personally I do consider waterboarding torture.
No, because 3 is the number of people that were waterboarded, if you define waterboarding as torture only 3 people were tortured.
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