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Old 01-03-2009, 05:52 AM   #41
Darth Avlectus
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You are too generous! I get praise for my "intelligence" and stuff, but to be honest I'm not surprised if my imbalance of attributes here cancels out any usability whatsoever. Thanks though.
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This may be a confusing statement, as it appears to liken pseudosciences like naturopathy with hard sciences like medicine.
Perhaps I was overgeneralizing to compensate for my lack of concise presentation in other threads. (Well, that and I just get nauseated of debating something with people who basically are telling me "how it is" and refuse to see it any other way than theirs regarding just about any matter.)

I think I should have separated that last thing about crop cirlces rumors. MY BAD!

I was more speaking to the development of mathematics and, like you say hard sciences. Or social sciences that at least hold some validity to a lesser degree. I suspect that this raw state of science is much more susceptible to political machinations. Sadly, hard sciences are soon making their way into that arena as you addressed below.
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Good scientific process begins with a falsifiable hypothesis, offers testable results from reproducible experimentation and observation in nature and is subject to peer review.
Yes. What was it called that separated lab science from social science? Ceterus Paribus? (latin for: all other variables assumed equal) That is one very important distinction to be made.
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Good scientific process is not simply asserting a conclusion such as prophecy or alien influence, whilst some religious communities may be accepting of this practise the scientific community is not and would consider such contentions nothing more than falsifiable hypothesis without any further research undertaken by its proponents (therefore failing at the beginning of peer review: where is the independent and collaborative data suggesting these conclusions?).
EXCELLENT POINT! I'm often disappointed by a lack of factual data or evidence when seeing some kind of study I'd like to look into from time to time.
OR how some con artists (conspiracy theorists) use factual data in a fallacious manner to gain $$$. OR that that same sort of thing is done by kooks pushing political agendas and/or extremism in religion.

I'm a little rough around the edges to be an academic type. Still R&D is quite rewarding to those who pursue it. I find the amount of...crud... hindering their progress to be disconcerting. After these people do so much work only to have it lambasted or hyperbolized or what have you. I quite appreciate these people.

So far as prophecies, though, I'm not quite sure how it is done except by mathematic formulae or statistics trends research. Nikola Tesla made predictions back in the late 1800s that have come true. The coming of age for aluminum, handheld communications devices, robotics advancement. THIS was a guy who actually bothered to go the distance, become an electrical physicist, and crank numbers and figures as well as invent.

Eugenics is probably the best example of pseudoscience. In fact, eugenics has got to be one of the most disgusting practices with regard to human life I have ever seen!

As an independent with many conservative values, I find Stalin reprehensible, actually. I'd call myself a "Soverigntist". I don't care to debate the politics of it, or talk about it here but if you'd like to speak in private?

Yes, I am all too suspicious of ulterior motives. Since scientists and engineers are concerned with HOW more than that of WHY (plus the creativity is mostly beaten out of you in those directions), I can see ways researchers are duped.

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Again I believe the classical example of modern concern was the almost universal acceptance of Eugenics during the late 19th century, for political reasons regarding indigenous rights claims. Here science was being used as a "get out of jail free card" to absolve the financial responsibility of succeeding generations towards indigenous claims. Yet this popular acceptance unwittingly procreated "runaway nationalism" so that within a few decades, benefit of quickly developing international domestic communication mediums, it formed the very backbone of Nazism in Europe. Indeed pseudosciences, that is a mimicry of scientific formulation for political or personal reasons are a popular trend. There has been a movement among American university students recognised during the late-90's and believed to be a direct result of "affirmative action" policies,
Ah, yes. This. (Side note: I am glad to have an independent view from someone not in America!)

These policies (as best I can determine) have considerations into a number of factors to a student's background. Factors which, I'm not all that convinced, is concerned with *actual performance*. Hence my bewilderment that it claims meritocracy has been trampled as its main reason of concern--and yet I see little else to that end actually being done.

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known as neo-Eugenics. This asserts that instead of cranial capacity and brain structure to differentiate the human races, that environments of social and economic background may be used as predictors of individual behaviour through genetic adaptation (ie. animal husbandry).
Yes. Indeed! I am actually curious as to what you have uncovered. If you don't mind.

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This latest attempt at veiling a completely pseudoscientific superstition with the label of scientific contention is of course likened to the "scientific racism" declared by the Anthropological Society, of Eugenics.

It is these types of concerns which are foremost in the mind of university lecturers. That students might attempt to apply a semblence of scientific syntax to personal conclusions in order to manipulate others. And that political agents would attempt to hijack scientific research and procreate pseudoscientific claims whenever money and power are involved.
Which scares me, more and more all the time. Sad too.

Too bad I myself don't have any hard data to do justice for someone I know personally (not greatly, but well enough) who grew up in Italy and left it because of Mussolini. He grew up in an environment such that he is wise enough to see the start of fascism.

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Take the ICBM for example. Werner von Braun originally conceived such designs to get man into space. Governments hijacked these intentions, and put man into space only to develop ICBM technologies. This reinforces what you say.

I believe we are in agreement, but I wished to extrapolate to make a clear distinction between pseudoscientific claims and true science.
WOW! Wonderful extrapolation! THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Are you a professor or at least a university student by chance? Very enlightening actually. It sounds like it may confirm some of my suspicions about the institutions of higher education in America.

What I was getting at is the overall progression has varied results.
While it is natural for minds to entertain on fictions generated from actual work, I marvel at how ideas have such exponential influence in the first place. As you said, though, it is also plagued with everything from petty to extremes. You said that plenty better than I ever could!


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Old 01-05-2009, 06:01 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity
(Well, that and I just get nauseated of debating something with people who basically are telling me "how it is" and refuse to see it any other way than theirs regarding just about any matter.)
Oh tell me about it mate Some days I'm already hanging on by such a fine thread and I've found time and again the hard way, not to go where they want to lead me. I wind up paying for it for the next 24hrs trying to find my sense of peace again, all for a mere moment's wonton gratification for some totally undeveloped, and very frustrated child.

But they do pop up anywhere. At least one certain unmentionable at these forums, another two or three at history forums, even one of the lecturers at a university. Certain past and current employers and managers. One must learn how to politely ignore them. They will where given the chance, happily subvert your career just for kicks.

Back on topic, nothing particular to add really, I'll just chat a little.
Social sciences I think may be primarily governed by the anthropologists ethic "correlation does not infer causation" though to be sure it sounds much nicer in the traditional latin condiment, "all things being equal." Many social sciences and especially political agendas derived of them are very open to interpretation for these reasons. Personally I'd consider most socio-scientific assertions well educated opinions rather than hard facts.

Insofar as the neo-Eugenics movement I actually came across this by accident. Happening upon one of the aforementioned arrogant opinionators at a forum, I was researching some ridiculous contentions to answer them with self evident scientific observation rather than pointless interpersonal arguing, using an anthropologists database and found a conversation as part of a peer review of neo-Eugenics contentions between biologists, archaeologists and anthropologists, in which they falsified animal husbandry as relative to individual behaviour and found the original falsification of Eugenics to boot. It was interesting reading, but quite some time ago and I'm not sure I could find the web-database very easily now. I'd suggest beginning a search at the American Anthropological Society website and linked university databases. Also google "eugenics" and "neo-eugenics" or enter these in the search function of websites by universities which specialise in anthropology (for example, the university of Wyoming specialises in palaeontology).

Where prophecy is discussed I think it interesting to note it as a product at best of intuitive imagination, strictly speaking, and equally interesting to investigate the circumstance of predictions. Aldous Huxley for example was habitually stoned on hard drugs and wrote a sci-fi novel...which in 1923 not only predicted escalators, suspended electric monorails and the IVF program but described them in such tremendous detail upon reading this tome I felt as if a product of the 19th century had somehow travelled in time to comment upon the technologies of today. Sigmund Freud was addicted to the same drugs and thought up what was soon hailed as "the religion of the 20th century," probably more in an effort to subjectively understand himself than anything else. And in 1948 George Orwell thought communism would take over the world, he didn't think about the economics of totalitarianism and yet his book "1984" is often regarded as also somewhat prophetic (perhaps in terms of what could have happened, or the folly of political totalitarianism as a natural course of developing government, in general).
Many astonishing predictions have occured, many extremely wise observations. I think the line to prophecy is crossed when someone makes these a solid claim, but I'm not against it as a form of personal belief.

This may or may not be off topic. You know in Israel, if someone claims to be the Messiah from what I've heard (yes this is anecdotal and not to be taken as a stated fact), it is legislated they must be taken seriously. The individual is rigorously interviewed and investigated just in case he/she is. Of course the risk for those running around claiming to be the Messiah is that where proven not to be by satisfactory argument, they generally wind up committed to a sealed institution. Nevertheless many people continue to claim they are the Messiah each year, and each is taken seriously.
Heard about that on a radio science show I used to listen to back in about 1998, iirc some guest speakers were discussing it, but it is a pretty informal radio show and I've not done any research into it. This has just stuck in mind as one of those interesting things you hear, which I remember when thinking about prophets and such.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:09 PM   #43
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I really don't know what to think after skimming through this website I found with google:

http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predict.html

That's a new one to me, doom by gamma ray bursts...


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:00 PM   #44
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Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Arcesious View Post
I really don't know what to think after skimming through this website I found with google:

http://www.etheric.com/LaViolette/Predict.html

That's a new one to me, doom by gamma ray bursts...
hehe, try this out. Phil Plait is win.

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Originally Posted by Darth333 View Post
Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
QFT
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:38 AM   #46
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Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think

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Old 01-12-2009, 06:30 AM   #47
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Ah. I've been out a few days. Well, yes quite the education I'm getting from you, vanir. I like science. I guess what I was originally getting at with technology not necessarily being in line with science and the development (FOR BETTER) of the human race...It could be tied in with conveniences. Examples, spellcheck and calculators. Talk to a university professor...no, actually talk to many of them. I just wonder how much the conveniences are squandering the usefulness and overall effectiveness of the human race. Sort of why I like being a bit of a brute. So I can laugh when a plastic surgeon can't replace his own tire.

Still, in all seriousness... though I hardly think I'm cut out for research, there is something really satisfying about making some kind of definitive thesis, finding facts to prove it, refining it to eliminate junk and fallacies, alter it if it's not working out...etc. Why do I bring this up? Because a particular doctor I know (anthro guy, loves my SW geekdom for his special SW anthro classes... and an occasional lightsaber duel I coreograph) has seen how quality of research is degrading over time and at how informations obtained are really not so much informations as it is something advertising to be informations.

I'm stuck because I feel like I want to do something about it and maybe I could, but I don't even know where to start. I'm no shining beacon...YET if I have learned any one thing...you can't really fight trends.

I'm hearing all the time "progressive" this and that. I ask, what good is progress if you evolve away from your principles? From what made you what/who you are in the first place??? What ever happened to more conservationist philosophies? Well, I'll stop raving like a lunatic. My point in all this is that we may very well be our own undoing. I guess that's what always happens. And it starts all over again. UGH!

An example: After the Meji restoration, Samurai had to adapt their teachings to be more spiritual as opposed to combative. Those who held onto the pure old ways ended up crumbling into dust and blowing away as it were. The ones that survived the test of time? Maybe not quite the chivalrous samurai of old quite, but, I'm confident if things were to return to that out of necessity--little would be lost. Still, I wonder just how much has changed forever. That's still more futunate than the losses I see elsewhere.
People without their way--or even a way at all, for that matter.

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Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
What, you mean like laziness? Here here. If it wasn't for laziness, I'd be out of a job. Lazy people need me. Keep yer pal GTA fed, BE LAZY! I need the $$$ to pay my bills and the work keeps me active!

I broke a mirror on friday the 13th once after going under a ladder. On purpose. Wonder what that would have in store.
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Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think
Well, I'm not sure what I'd do...It's a tossup. Backyard wrestling (yes, the kind that requires stitches for all the glass and chairs), Hang gliding (gotta fly), or a hot time with my gal pal (live and love). That's a tough choice.


We'll murder them all, amid laughter and merriment...except for the few we take home to experiment!

"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:47 PM   #48
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Meh, if 21st Dec 2012 is Doomsday, I'm hitting it up with mates, grabbing a few cartons and going out in style. No better way I should think
*raises drink* here here!


There is only the force.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:37 PM   #49
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Superstitions...If I had believed in all of them since I was born, I'd be dead at least 10 times already. Despite technology advances it seems that some things have not progressed since the middle ages (or even the dawn of humanity...).
Can I get some clarification? Please.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:24 PM   #50
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Can I get some clarification? Please.
There have been multiple supposed Doomsdays since I have been born; D3 is saying that these things are only superstition.

_EW_



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Old 03-12-2009, 04:43 PM   #51
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There have been multiple supposed Doomsdays since I have been born; D3 is saying that these things are only superstition.

_EW_

I agree on that, nearly all of these 'doom's days' have been based on hype on a certain day or number, in the end, it's all superstition. I think many of us have that same idea when it comes to such subjects as doom and gloom


you very much
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:36 AM   #52
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hehe I wish I could link to a song by a band called Last Supper(no they weren't religious).

It was called Y2K
"By the time you hear this song
the crisis will be done
But fear not before to long
there'll be another one"


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Old 03-15-2009, 08:10 PM   #53
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The Mayan calender stops and starts over after XXX amount of years. So no apocalypse for us Someone is making a movie about this too.




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Old 03-16-2009, 08:07 AM   #54
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I'm frankly more concerned about June 6th, 2066, at 6:56 AM.
Why is that? seems like the greatest day in the history if you mean all the 6s you can find there

But seriously, its a load of crap. The world isnt gonna end just like that, the sun wont say boom for 5000000000 more years and there hasnt been a meteorite seen heading towards us, well at least not yet. And Jesus is a loser at respawning, we have been waiting for him to come back for 2000 years, while dalai lama hasnt been doing anything but coming back


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Old 03-16-2009, 01:17 PM   #55
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I don't believe in prophecies, but don't forget that Aztec Calendar thing. When some god (Actually it was a Spaniard named Cortez, but that ain't as flashy) came across the ocean in floating mountain's (Never been on a cruise eh?), with four legged centaur's (Horsies, neiigh!) and normal people with wand's that shoot fire. (Gun's but who care's!)


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Old 03-16-2009, 07:11 PM   #56
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I'm sure if the Mayans were around, they'd have a new calendar to start the day the old one ran out as part of the contingency plan. If it really is doomsday, none of us will be here to care after that, so I'm not going to sweat it.

There's no guarantee any of us will be here in the next hour, much less the next decade, so we should learn to appreciate the days we have now and work on making the world better one day at time. If the world ends in 3 years, at least we'll have made it better than the world it is today.


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Old 03-16-2009, 10:31 PM   #57
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If the world ends in 3 years, at least we'll have made it better than the world it is today.
Or if your too young to make a big difference, at least we had fun




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Old 03-17-2009, 02:33 PM   #58
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Well the Mayans may have gotten the date but Aztecan belief states that we are in the Fifth Age or the Age of the Ollintonatiuh, the sun. They came up with the description of what happens during the lasts days and surprisingly or maybe coincidence the descriptions are similar to certain events that are predicted in the Bible. Aztecan belief goes along the line that there would be a giant earthquake that would swallow the earth and disease a pestilence and there is silence.

Coincidence maybe to certain things in Revelation but what is consistent is that peopl never stop coming up with ways of predicting how the world will end. Mayans I could probably accept more readily than the alien spaceship theory in that they wer master mathematicians and could predict the occurences of Venus' appearance, etc. with astounding accuracy that makes our "superior" Julian calendar look pathetic.

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Old 03-18-2009, 04:30 AM   #59
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Old 03-18-2009, 03:09 PM   #60
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I haven't read this thread at all, but I watched a special on this on The History Channel a while back and all I have to say is this: take everything you hear on TV with a grain of salt. Always assume they are lying to you, which they usually are.

As much as I love The History Channel, I really can't take all of their programs at face value. They are meant to entertain first and educate second. That's how they keep you coming back for more.


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Old 03-19-2009, 05:34 AM   #61
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I haven't read this thread at all, but I watched a special on this on The History Channel a while back and all I have to say is this: take everything you hear on TV with a grain of salt. Always assume they are lying to you, which they usually are.
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As much as I love The History Channel, I really can't take all of their programs at face value. They are meant to entertain first and educate second. That's how they keep you coming back for more.
Wise words.

So many of us romance doomsday...it's a better device for profiting off of entertainment I think.

If the world is turned into a stone with a giant sheet of glass over its surface...hey, we're all dead so no big deal.
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