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Old 01-26-2009, 11:45 PM   #41
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Maybe I missed something here. I was under the impression that the Emperor knew about the apprentice from the day Vader discovered him on Kashyyyk. The apprentice's entire life was a lie.

In that situation, Vader wouldn't have used him to stop the Emperor because the Emperor knew of his existence from day one.

Vader knew that one day he would betray the Emperor, but he knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be with the Apprentice (hence the "Not with you" comment).
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
I can see this is going no where. Let's just agree to disagree and be on our merry way?
I pretty much implied that this is what we're in when I stated you won't change your mind and I'm not trying to do it. Having your own opinion about things is fine. It's when you spout off on things as fact when you didn't do your homework is when it becomes a problem. The reason for that is because for those who aren't sure about what to think about the game's plot have the facts right in front of them so they can make a informed decision. Remember this thread was created by someone who didn't quite understand the plot of the game and is obviously looking for answers.

Another thing to work on is making vague statements assuming we can read your mind that you meant more than that.

An example of this would be when you said this:

"Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

...and later say this:

If you'd actually read my posts you'd know that I never denied this dialogue. I said that if "the one bright spot" is enough to risk the fate of the galaxy than Kota is a bad leader.

There are two things that you either:

1. Didn't pay attention to the dialogue of the game which I already emphasized earlier in the thread.

2. You meant more to your original statement, but didn't clarify it and assumed we could read your mind.

It's very important to make sure that you communicate clearly on what you're thinking.



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Originally Posted by gallandro View Post
Maybe I missed something here. I was under the impression that the Emperor knew about the apprentice from the day Vader discovered him on Kashyyyk. The apprentice's entire life was a lie.
I can see that people may think that could be the case, but then why did Vader kill all of the Imperials who were witnesses to Starkiller's existence when Vader made the choice to make use out of the boy if he's going to tell his master about him? It would seem that Vader killed them because he wanted Starkiller to be a secret which was obviously exposed to the Emperor at a later time.


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Originally Posted by gallandro View Post
Vader knew that one day he would betray the Emperor, but he knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be with the Apprentice (hence the "Not with you" comment).
This why I think Vader changed his mind about the boy. He did have ambitions to overthrow the Emperor when he said, "Not with you", but realized that there was too much good in the boy to safely keep him as his apprentice based on the feelings he developed for his allies he worked with in the Rebellion which Vader called him on.

Read my original post about the whole thing when this thread began to get a better idea of what I believed happened which is all based on clues given in the game. I believe I have a pretty good explanation to why the Emperor chose to keep Starkiller alive when he found out about him and what future plans the Emperor may have had with him.


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Old 01-28-2009, 12:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Shem View Post
Remember this thread was created by someone who didn't quite understand the plot of the game and is obviously looking for answers.
.
I understand the plot it is just it seems a bit confusing why Lord Vader would not use starkiller to overthrow the Emperor when they could do it together. Vader needs to overthrow his master at some point and he isnt getting any younger or stronger so it would only make perfect sense that he would use starkiller to do what every true sith needs to do in their short life. The "not with" comment well Vader is middle age and stuck in a suit so it only makes sense that he would use starkiller to take control and than use "whoever" it was in the "not with you" comment to fight starkiller.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
I understand the plot
What you mean is you don't understand the motives of the characters in the plot. That is what I've been trying to clear up for you.


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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
it is just it seems a bit confusing why Lord Vader would not use starkiller to overthrow the Emperor when they could do it together. Vader needs to overthrow his master at some point and he isnt getting any younger or stronger so it would only make perfect sense that he would use starkiller to do what every true sith needs to do in their short life. The "not with" comment well Vader is middle age and stuck in a suit so it only makes sense that he would use starkiller to take control and than use "whoever" it was in the "not with you" comment to fight starkiller.
That's where you need to understand the hold Sidious has on Vader because of Vader's fear. Ever been in a situation in your life sometime where you wanted to do something, but you couldn't go through with it because of the fear of failing? Well, if Vader failed, he's dead.

It also could be that Vader underestimated Starkiller. Notice that he thought he would beat his former apprentice, but ended getting his butt kicked. Vader seemed to talk a bigger game than he really played.

The point is Vader messed that one up because of the fear of his master. Just remember every time you have had opportunities in your life where you have messed up and relate it to that experience in the game. I'm betting after the outcome of Starkiller's death that he wished he played that one out different. That is where Luke comes in. He was trying to recruit Luke to join him and do together what he originally planned with Starkiller.

It is interesting how the situations with Luke and Starkiller sort of mirror each other in terms of the intentions both Vader and Sidious had with each of them.


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Old 01-29-2009, 09:40 PM   #45
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i am assuming that the battle of Kashyyyk at the start of the game is the same as the one in the novel "Rise of Darth Vader" which in the book at the end of the battle Vader declares that he will find an apprentice to help him over throw his master and that he will rule the Empire. Also this novel states that Vader would have already killed the Emperor if he had not been injuryed at the hands of his old master. This information would lead one to believe that Vader's true intentions were to use starkiller to aid him in overthrowing his current master seeing how much he talked about this very thing in the waning pages of the book. It was the force that took Vader to Kashyyk and led him the the boy and seemly right after the battle he is talking about using a apprentice to become the emperor.

What becomes increasingly confusing is that the Emperor knew about the apprentice and yet Vader did not take control when he appeared to have the chance. Also given the care that the emperor put into becoming emporer it seems a little out of character that he would allow the rebellion to be birth seeing how the was no way the clone wars plan could have failed or better it did not fail. Seeing how the Emperor knew about starkiller then why did he have Vader "kill" starkiller in front of him. Why risk the perfect deal. Starkiller is the perfect sith tool. He is a dark sider who is Loyal! He would never cross his master Vader. He would do whatever it is that his master asked of him. So why then would Vader and the emperor "kill" starkiller giving him reason to turn on them, reason to bring down the Empire, reason to help those who had hunted down before? Well it was to better draw out the foes of the Empire is the answer but starkiller would have done that already without being "killed" but now he has doubts that need not be there in the first place. thus needlessly crossing an ally Vader sealed his own defeat. Which is just plain silly when you think about it. Who are they trying to fool? only three people knew anything about what was going on; four if you count juno but she just does whatever starkiller does. What was all the stagecraft for? It seems that doing all this extra stuff they turned an ally into an foe would become the thing that destroy them and all for nothing too.

If Vader thought starkiller wasnt strong enough to beat the emperor it still does not make sense as to why he would not use him to take power. Even if Vader thought starkiller could not beat the emperor than why not have him fight the emporer anyway then as the emperor is battling out with starkiller Vader could stab his master in the back as he did starkiller. After all isnt this all about misleading, and distracting foes so you can stab them when they wont see it coming. This is a trade sith mark stabbing in the back as your foes fight an distraction. Vader knew that starkiller was strong and this is proven by starkiller beating the crap out of the two sith lords so why is it that vader feels that starkiller is not good enough to be an distraction. Also i would like to point out that if Vader told the emperor about starkiller and came up with this plan to use the boy to draw out the foes of the empire then how do we not know it was a clever ploy to fool the emperor himself. Sith are all about lying and power. It would make sense to lure the emperor into a false sense of safety then strike him down with starkiller at his side.

Another reason it does not sit right that Vader didnt strike down the emperor is when have any sith apprenticeship lasted over 20 years or any sith lord been so loyal to his master? Vader knew long before this that he was just a tool a pawn and wanted to end this so why would be pass up at least the chance to stop being the emperor's slave? Any good sith would have already murdered or tried it twice already to take power from their masters. Darth Malak ordered his ship to fire on his master's ship so why did not Vader try something similar seeing how he could fight his way to the top with a lightsaber. These two sith lords are very much like the sith before them. One would think that Vader would welcome death seeing how he has nothing to live for. So could risk death when he has nothing to live for a chance to take an Empire when he could have most likely do it.

Plot just doesnt sit well given all that we know about Vader and the sith.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
i am assuming that the battle of Kashyyyk at the start of the game is the same as the one in the novel "Rise of Darth Vader" which in the book at the end of the battle Vader declares that he will find an apprentice to help him over throw his master and that he will rule the Empire. Also this novel states that Vader would have already killed the Emperor if he had not been injuryed at the hands of his old master. This information would lead one to believe that Vader's true intentions were to use starkiller to aid him in overthrowing his current master seeing how much he talked about this very thing in the waning pages of the book. It was the force that took Vader to Kashyyk and led him the the boy and seemly right after the battle he is talking about using a apprentice to become the emperor.
I've never read that book, but it seems to me that choosing Kashyyyk to start off the game was not a random thing. There was a purpose to it. Thanks for sharing that.

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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
What becomes increasingly confusing is that the Emperor knew about the apprentice and yet Vader did not take control when he appeared to have the chance.
What confuses is that you're not listening to me, or at least it seems because it sounds like I'm listening to a broken record.

Whether or not the Emperor knew of Starkiller before walking in on them and Vader sticking a lightsaber through Starkiller's chest is unknown. What was CLEAR is that Vader acted out of fear. That controlled him more than his ambition. Ask yourself this: How many times have you made a different choice in your life out of fear? You have to keep in mind that Vader made this choice to preserve his life.


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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
Also given the care that the emperor put into becoming emporer it seems a little out of character that he would allow the rebellion to be birth
There is a lot you missed then.

1. The Emperor's intention was to stop the Rebellion before it got started to avoid a war.

2. This is not out of character for Sidious. I STRONGLY suggest you watch Return of the Jedi again. While doing so, listen to every bit of dialogue Sidious speaks and ask yourself why would he do that?

The thing is the Emperor likes to take chances, or so it seems. Sidious deliberately allow the Rebellion to get a hold of the secret Death Star plans that revealed the secret location of the second Death Star on the Endor Moon. The reason for that is because he wanted to draw his enemies out and bring them all together and crush them all at once.

You have to realize that finding the Rebels was useless because they hid themselves well. Didn't you ever notice that it was always an issue about finding the Rebels in the whole Original Trilogy; from Tarkin trying to pry it out of Leia leading to the destruction of Alderaan a probe droid finding a secret base on Hoth?

the problem is he needed to get them all out in the open at once to end the war once and far all. So he took a risk in order to do that while trying to be very prepared for their arrival.

It's like how he had Starkiller gather them and bring them all together and when they're together, arrest them and execute them. Notice Palpatine made it clear it was going to be a public and painful execution? He was going to make an example of them to prevent any resistance in the future. Obviously it backfired.


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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
Seeing how the Emperor knew about starkiller then why did he have Vader "kill" starkiller in front of him. Why risk the perfect deal. Starkiller is the perfect sith tool. He is a dark sider who is Loyal! He would never cross his master Vader. He would do whatever it is that his master asked of him. So why then would Vader and the emperor "kill" starkiller giving him reason to turn on them, reason to bring down the Empire, reason to help those who had hunted down before?
This is when I feel it is useless to even talk to you. I have already explained this. I'm going to copy and paste what I have said before below this and if you don't get it then you either refuse to read or you can't comprehend it. Let's just hope it's "you" refusing to read and if you're not going to, quit asking the same questions over and over again because you're becoming a broken record and this is the last time I try to explain it to you. I'm beginning to think you don't really want an explanation as you have already made up your mind it's not going to make sense and that you're really just venting and don't care about the real answers here.

Anyway, last chance. Here is your explanation to why Vader stuck a lightsaber through Starkiller's chest:

Quote:
I’m betting that even though Vader told Starkiller that he was to leave no witnesses, somehow someone witness his existence and was not discovered by Starkiller, or he would have been killed on the spot. This witness reported to the Emperor, and from there the Emperor investigated who this mystery guy was. Through his spies, he discovers that it was a secret apprentice of Vader. The Emperor saw an opportunity with this and that is he could use this boy to replace Vader.

The Emperor probably figures out that this guy is loyal to Vader just like Maul was to him. So he needed a plan create a division between them so Starkiller’s loyalty to Vader would be shaken. Could you imagine the fear that went through Vader when the Emperor confronted him about his secret apprentice and the surprise that went through Vader’s mind that the Emperor said there could be some use for him to help the Empire?

That is when having Vader injure him would do the trick. When Starkiller woke up and realized he was still alive, he was mad at Vader for what he did to him. In the meantime, the Emperor needed his enemies identified and eliminated. Though I don’t think the Emperor intended to find all of his enemies, just enough to make use out of Starkiller to help create division between him and Vader so that he would have a chance to turn him to the Emperor’s side.
Please tell me you get it this time.


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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
If Vader thought starkiller wasnt strong enough to beat the emperor it still does not make sense as to why he would not use him to take power. Even if Vader thought starkiller could not beat the emperor than why not have him fight the emporer anyway then as the emperor is battling out with starkiller Vader could stab his master in the back as he did starkiller.
You're talking as if this is what you would do without fearing the possible consequence. Now imagine you are really Vader and you fear your master. Find someone in your life you fear greatly or did as a child and imagine a plot against this person you hated failed.

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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
Even if Vader thought starkiller could not beat the emperor than why not have him fight the emporer anyway then as the emperor is battling out with starkiller Vader could stab his master in the back as he did starkiller.
You make it sound sooooo easy. Do you really think the Emperor is going to lose track of Vader? He's going to know he betrayed him and will be aware of him. Sidious was not afraid to take on four Jedi at once. Remember he dispatched three of those Jedi pretty quickly and it started when he used fear against them. Notice the look in their eyes when he charged them in the air while spinning. Sidious created enough fear to get them to flinch, thus killing two of those masters after being caught off-guard.

People to this day didn't see the fear he created because they didn't put themselves in their position. If you had just found out that you thought someone who was ordinary was really a Sith and all of a sudden he pulls out his lightsaber and attacks you, don't you think a little fear it going to run through you because now you're going to fight for your life. Nobody fights for their life without feeling fear.

The point is Vader knew better than that and you need to give Vader credit in a way that he isn't as bone-headed as you're trying to make him out to be. Just because you sic your apprentice on him doesn't mean the Emperor is going to lose track of where you're at so he would be able to sneak a quick attack to stab him. You're taking credit away from Sidious. Sidious is much smarter than that.


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Originally Posted by Wepopu View Post
Vader knew that starkiller was strong and this is proven by starkiller beating the crap out of the two sith lords so why is it that vader feels that starkiller is not good enough to be an distraction.
If Vader really knew how strong Starkiller was, he would have used him to kill Sidious. The problem was as I have already stated in this thread.

Vader obviously underestimated Starkiller's abilities. When Vader went to confront Starkiller, he said to him: "I've trained you well, but you still have much to learn."

Do you even realize what that means? Vader is saying, you're good boy, but I'm still better. So that means Vader underestimated Starkiller's abilities. I would guarantee that Vader realizes after Starkiller's death that he knows he messed up and he messed up pretty bad.

You do realize that people do mess up because they do misjudge people or situations, right? This is what makes this story real because real choices are made and mistakes are made too. Then Vader later seeks out Luke to use him in the same way he used Starkiller and if that opportunity had happened, Vader wouldn't have made that mistake twice.

If you don't get it after this, then you're not going to. The story is brilliant and it really exposes familiar character decisions that are really made by Vader and Sidious, especially Sidious. That was so in character and this is when you know that Lucas did help co-write this story. We all knew that he did help write the story and I see the evidences where he helped them out.

I think your problem is is that it didn't go the way you wanted it to go. There's a difference between what you want and what it is going to be and you need to figure that out.


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Old 01-30-2009, 04:56 AM   #47
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There I was thinking you wanted to bash me. But now I see that you have a problem with everyone who sees the obvious plot holes.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:59 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem View Post

"Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

...and later say this:

If you'd actually read my posts you'd know that I never denied this dialogue. I said that if "the one bright spot" is enough to risk the fate of the galaxy than Kota is a bad leader.

There are two things that you either:

1. Didn't pay attention to the dialogue of the game which I already emphasized earlier in the thread.

2. You meant more to your original statement, but didn't clarify it and assumed we could read your mind.

It's very important to make sure that you communicate clearly on what you're thinking.
NO IT MEANS THAT THE ARGUMENT USED IN THE DIALOGUE IS JUST SILLY AND FOR A SECOND I THOUGHT THAT MABY YOU COULD FING A BETTER ONE. Sorry. Can't spell that any bigger than that.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:19 AM   #49
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C'mon guys... this clearly isn't going anywhere, and it's only increasing everyone's level of frustration.

Why don't we all just cool down for a while?






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Old 01-30-2009, 05:02 PM   #50
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C'mon guys... this clearly isn't going anywhere, and it's only increasing everyone's level of frustration.

Why don't we all just cool down for a while?
You're right. Sorry if anyone is offended by our discussion witch got a bit out of hand. I made my points quite clear so consider this my last post in this thread.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:26 PM   #51
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i am assuming that the battle of Kashyyyk at the start of the game is the same as the one in the novel "Rise of Darth Vader" which
I'm pretty sure that they are two separate battles, considering that neither of them appear connected (except for location). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers didn't know about the battle of Kashyyyk seen in "Dark Lord".

One thing that I think would have made the battle seen at TFU's beginning would be to have it be established (in one or two short lines of dialogue) that there was a big sudden wookiee revolt or something. TFU implies that its battle of Kashyyyk was the Empire's first invasion, even though that already happened. I'm a little surprised that they missed that, considering how much research the writers put into the story.


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Old 01-30-2009, 07:29 PM   #52
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I believe Kashyyyk was a constant problem to the Empire. So many invasions took place.
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