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Old 02-05-2009, 11:22 AM   #1
Salzella
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Role Models

so i was thinking, after watching Terry Pratchett's Alzheimer's documentary, about his own experiences with the early-onset version of it, and i thought: isn't he amazing? I mean, first he writes the best seroes of comedy/fantasy books ever, becomes ludicrously popular, etc. then, however, gets a one-in-a-million disease that affects, basically, his whole livelihood, but instead of moping about or whatever, he faces it with a mixture of toughness, humour, and activity. Lovely man.

so.

role models.

GIVE ME THEM.
plus reasons aswell would be nice

PS mine, apart from His Lordship mentioned in the opening paragraph, Elbow Singer Guy Garvey is definitely my other main role model. Apart from singing in the joint best band in the world, he is involved with several charities, produces for other bands, contributes to anyone who wants him, scouts talent for a record label, has his own radio show, and is a top bloke anyway. so ya <3

gogogo!
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:50 AM   #2
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I don't have a role model. Making a role model for yourself seems to me to be a way of making a standard for yourself that doesn't truly reflect who you are. I prefer to define myself, however, it is smart to follow the example of others at times.


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:11 PM   #3
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Arcesious above speaks words true: it is not always wise to have role models. To hold a being as your supreme idol is a folly, because in emulating his greatness you will also emulate his vices. So instead, take something from all, and build them into yourself. Such is the path to greatness.


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Old 02-05-2009, 12:13 PM   #4
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Anna Politkovskaya, and our hated heroes:
She fought for a better Russia, and brought hope to people who had none. She fought for the elderly trapped in Grozny, and got them out, for the mothers of soldiers killed by their officers, and brought some of them to court, she fought for freedom of speech to those who don't have it, and showed their stories to the public.
In return she was hated, ridiculed, and killed.
And so the elderly are back in Grozny, murderers back on the street, and those brave souls who continued her fight like Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova, share her fate, 6 feet under.
Here's to all those people who choose short, painfull lives, in a country that let no good deed go unpunished.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:47 PM   #5
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Sabretooth and Arcesious, as far as I'm aware, the point of a role model is to take the positive, and I hardly think anyone defines role model as 'someone you want to be, foibles and all'. someone you want to be like, someone who inspires you perhaps. I find it hard to believe neither of you has anyone you look up to as an inspiration.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:57 PM   #6
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Depend on what you mean by an inspiration, my "role models" are more like reminders of what will happen if I folow my concience. They serve more to dispel any ilusions about fame and glory, than to push me to achieve either.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:50 PM   #7
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This,
Show spoiler

and this,
Show spoiler

...and yes, even this:
Show spoiler
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:53 PM   #8
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Voltaire and Nietzsche. More for their views, what they stood for, and what they did for the future, than for how they lived.

Closer in time, I don't think there's anyone I really look up to. There's people I like and can appreciate, but nothing more.


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Old 02-05-2009, 04:08 PM   #9
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@ thread...I have lots of people I look up to. I could spend time on all of them but I'd rather not, right now.

I mention Miyamoto Musashi below because I'm into swordsmanship of a few different kinds. Musashi was Japan's greatest duelist and he invented his own 2-sword fighting style: 1 long sword, one shoto in the off hand.

Why I like him...it could just be that his philosophy and strategy of being a warrior seems applicable, even today, in many things and pursuits (not just combat). In fact, pursit is a lot of what the book of five rings is about. Yet even that doesn't do it justice. I don't know, you'd just have to read it and re-read it. Since we all comprehend differently I'm not sure I can explain it or interpret it specifically so that you all could understand its main gist.

Also, he Musashi, was independent; from what I see that is a very adverse path he chose considering eastern societies are traditionally conformist. Also kept his 'way' and he did it *alone* on a path of solitude--remained there his whole life.

True he had to have mentors to teach him things along the way, but I'm talking generally about adulthood and specifically as a martialist. Most seem to need some presence of a luminary or visionary; Some elder. Or they stray off from the path of the 'way'. He did not need such in his life. That is not for everyone--to be without a master on the martial way/into martial arts/sciences.

I'd say that also most adults in general, though self sufficient, have some kind of need to appeal to an elder person in some way. Even a love/hate relationship.

A path of a loner--having lived it for the most part in childhood, I can attest, it can be lonely, and scary as hell. Still there is a certain centrality and tranquility to it that you just don't get anywhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious View Post
I don't have a role model. Making a role model for yourself seems to me to be a way of making a standard for yourself that doesn't truly reflect who you are. I prefer to define myself, however, it is smart to follow the example of others at times.
And if you choose them at arbitrary instead? --you choose them because they reflect who you are and not the other way around?
(Then again, that isn't really holding a role model in the strictest sense, but still, even omitting this you can still have role models.)

I think you speak more to foolish idolization. Making impossible standards (for anyone) is generally foolish--no arguments there. I would contend, however, that making a standard of some kind of perfection is a very wise thing.

To paraphrase Miyamoto Musahsi: "Perfection is not that which is obtained, rather that for which you constantly and vehemently strive." I think that is because we cannot live up to any ideal, label or standard 100% all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Arcesious above speaks words true: it is not always wise to have role models. To hold a being as your supreme idol is a folly, because in emulating his greatness you will also emulate his vices. So instead, take something from all, and build them into yourself. Such is the path to greatness.
And greater greatness at that. You know the difference between championing and idolizing. Which I commend.

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<SNIP>
...and yes, even this:
Show spoiler
I think we all can relate to THAT one at some point or another.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
Depend on what you mean by an inspiration, my "role models" are more like reminders of what will happen if I folow my concience. They serve more to dispel any ilusions about fame and glory, than to push me to achieve either.
Would you care to expand on, and elaborate on this? I think you have a great moral that you wish to tell. --As well as hardships.

Do you mean that you think things will not end well if you continue to follow your conscience?

Your writing voice seems to have an air of conflict about it.
Perhaps you wish to imply that doing the right thing may not always be easy, glamorous, or rewarding? --Perhaps even punishing?

Life is often fraught with this kind of difficulty on levels from minor to excruciating.

Please-if you would?


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Old 02-05-2009, 04:19 PM   #10
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I also look up to ahmad shah massoud ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud)
First he fought the Russians out of Afghanistan, then fought to keep the taliban out of power until his assassanation on sept. 9 2001. Had we listened to him when he talked in front of the UN, we could have possibly avoided 9/11 all together. But hey, why listen to someone from a third world country asking for help, all ignoring them has ever done is cause Vietnam and the war in Iraq



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Old 02-05-2009, 04:30 PM   #11
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Never really had any physical role models.

I didn't idolize dead people because, well, they are dead and what they were has been misconstrued. Idolizing real people seems to be playing a fool's game, even more so for fake people. It is like putting a carrot on a stick in front of a horse and watching it try to get it.

But, I did want to be a power ranger, sailor scout, or Pokemon trainer when I was younger!





Hey, if you are going to idolize someone... might as well make it extravagant!
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:33 PM   #12
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You know his name.

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Old 02-05-2009, 04:35 PM   #13
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When I would play Power Rangers with my neighbors we'd have races around the house to see who would get to be White, or whoever was the current "cool", Ranger. Ah good times.


I have never really thought of him as a role model because he is more my friend but I would say my uncle is mine.


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Old 02-05-2009, 04:37 PM   #14
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I've never had a role model, and I rarely look up to someone.

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Old 02-05-2009, 04:37 PM   #15
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I never really had a role model at all.

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Old 02-05-2009, 04:38 PM   #16
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Great Morals? Hardly, I'm a nihilist.
It is just that I dislike that "role models" tend to be people who die famous. Look outside the known heroes, and you will find countless heroes who fought their entire (short) lives in hellish conditions. They (usually) don't get fame, fortune, or even the support of their people, yet they cary on until their lives are cut short. That's the kind of people I want others to emulate. Sure, it'll be a lot of dead bodies in the short term, but as long as it is western bodies, it'll push the politicans to actually do something.
/Rant
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:39 PM   #17
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I never really had role models so much as I saw brilliant men and women, and derived a lot of my inspiration from wanting to out-shine them, and be better. They were less idols and more goals to be surmounted and surpassed. One such person is Aldous Huxley, who was a brilliant dystopian author who wrote Brave New World, The Island, etc. Then there's Ralph Waldo Emerson, who of course inspired me to look at a larger picture than just what is obvious. Aristotle as well, for his three elements of rhetoric.

Martin Luther King is another huge person that inspired me, because his words are probably the most well-known, and also the most mis-interpreted in history. That's just to name a few, not including composers that have inspired me in my musical life.



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Old 02-05-2009, 04:39 PM   #18
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Voltaire and Nietzsche. More for their views, what they stood for, and what they did for the future, than for how they lived.
Voltaire, did live a 'good' life, he stood up to those orcastrating the terror at the hight of it's atrocities; that takes guts. Nietzsche is my favourite philosopher.

Jesus is my all time role model

I admire both Kaka and Messi for their footballing skills and the way they conduct themselves off the pitch.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #19
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There are people I admire, such as Wellington, Marlborough, Frederick II and Napoleon (although all of these are mainly due to my love of 18th Century History), but I wouldn't say I have any role models, per se.

Lance Armstrong would probably be the closest - his struggles kept me going when I went through my own, so yeah, Lance Armstrong it is.






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Old 02-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #20
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Yeah the Sailor Scouts were always role models for me

I think my Dad is pretty good role model, as far as keeping a steady job for more than ten years, being responsible with money, and not falling into bad habits.


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Old 02-05-2009, 05:09 PM   #21
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:29 PM   #22
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This dude


And this dude




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Old 02-05-2009, 05:34 PM   #23
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Well, my grandfather has always sort of been mine.

Otherwise, not many others. My pastor, to an extent.

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:37 PM   #24
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Attention, this is obviously trolling. Not to be taken seriously.

But seriously, its a real shame that Terry Pratchett had to get Alzheimer's, he's one of my favorite authors.

Last edited by Jae Onasi; 02-05-2009 at 07:33 PM. Reason: language
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:03 PM   #25
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I would consider looking up to a famous philospher, but I think that an important thing to realize is that brilliant philosphers were fallible people too, and not everything they said is true for everyone. In other words, I beleive that a lot of the philosphies out there aren't universally true for every individual.


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Old 02-05-2009, 06:05 PM   #26
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Love this man.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:13 PM   #27
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I would consider looking up to a famous philospher, but I think that an important thing to realize is that brilliant philosphers were fallible people too, and not everything they said is true for everyone. In other words, I beleive that a lot of the philosphies out there aren't universally true for every individual.
Wait, so you're saying nobody is perfect?

Oh my gosh, now I'm crushed.

_EW_



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Old 02-05-2009, 06:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious View Post
I would consider looking up to a famous philospher, but I think that an important thing to realize is that brilliant philosphers were fallible people too, and not everything they said is true for everyone. In other words, I beleive that a lot of the philosphies out there aren't universally true for every individual.
Which relative philosophy book told you that? If something is true, it's true regardless of if someone recognizes that or not. I can live by the philosophy that the Gnomes at the end of the garden will provide me with money so I won't work - that doesn't change the fact I'll be broke, or moved to an asylum.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:43 PM   #29
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In summary, yes.

I'm just agreeing with Salzella in post #4.

Edit: The philosphical concept that I don't really agree with is Neitzche's 'Overman' philosophy. The reason I don't agree with it is because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. If it made sense to me, maybe I'd agree with it.


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Old 02-05-2009, 06:45 PM   #30
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I can live by the philosophy that the Gnomes at the end of the garden will provide me with money so I won't work - that doesn't change the fact I'll be broke, or moved to an asylum.
True, but that gnome in particular peddles "deals" on choice hotels.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:59 PM   #31
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The philosphical concept that I don't really agree with is Neitzche's 'Overman' philosophy. The reason I don't agree with it is because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. If it made sense to me, maybe I'd agree with it.
Arc, could you refer me to which part of 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' you are struggling with? So we don't take this off topic please continue Nietzsche philosophy discussion here; http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...87#post2585387 - j7



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:23 PM   #32
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I would consider looking up to a famous philosopher, but I think that an important thing to realize is that brilliant philosophers were fallible people too, and not everything they said is true for everyone. In other words, I believe that a lot of the philosophies out there aren't universally true for every individual.
What you mean is you resisted the urge to what all the other trendy dbags do, right?
+Fixed spellings
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:32 PM   #33
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Voltaire, did live a 'good' life, he stood up to those orcastrating the terror at the hight of it's atrocities; that takes guts.
Voltaire actually died in 1778 before the French Revolution got underway in 1789, and before La Terreur commenced in 1793. You might be thinking of Danton?


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Old 02-05-2009, 07:49 PM   #34
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Voltaire actually died in 1778 before the French Revolution got underway in 1789, and before La Terreur commenced in 1793. You might be thinking of Danton?
Hmmm, no, not thinking of Danton, I'd never checked dates, Voltaire is famous for having fought for the lower classes, for civil rights and fair trials. And given some of the miscarriages of justice, and the threats he had received, I clearly had wrong thought it was during the revolution. I'm more a philosopher than historian



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:35 PM   #35
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Sabretooth and Arcesious, as far as I'm aware, the point of a role model is to take the positive, and I hardly think anyone defines role model as 'someone you want to be, foibles and all'. someone you want to be like, someone who inspires you perhaps. I find it hard to believe neither of you has anyone you look up to as an inspiration.
As much as I'm inspired by a good success story, I do not hold a single or a group of persons as my prime source of inspiration. If I took say, The Buddha (one of my most favourite humans ever), I'd ask myself "What would Buddha do?" when I'm in a rough and the answer would be: Buddha wouldn't get into this position in the first place, fool.

My point is, every second of existence is unique for an individual and is what makes the individual. Therefore, it is foolish to idolise someone. The persons I'd idolise haven't lived my life, they wouldn't know me or my parents or my friends, why should I look up to a stranger for inspiration? And even the people I know don't see the world I do, why should I look to them for inspiration either?

As for the earlier argument, note that I meant to include the word 'inadvertently'. Of course you don't beat up your mother and sister if you idolise Christian Bale (who is a pretty poor role model anyways). But you are so blinded by the shining awesomeness of your hero that even his darker acts are 'okay' in your subconsciousness. If your successful hero did it and remained the awesome hero he was, it must be good. Sorry, Mom.


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Old 02-05-2009, 09:57 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
As for the earlier argument, note that I meant to include the word 'inadvertently'. Of course you don't beat up your mother and sister if you idolise Christian Bale (who is a pretty poor role model anyways). But you are so blinded by the shining awesomeness of your hero that even his darker acts are 'okay' in your subconsciousness. If your successful hero did it and remained the awesome hero he was, it must be good. Sorry, Mom.
Hey he was just having a bad day.


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Old 02-05-2009, 10:19 PM   #37
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I can see why, Niner

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:25 PM   #38
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:18 PM   #39
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My parents are my role models, first and foremost. Their few faults (IMO, of course!) make their successes even better. There is no "me" without also a "them."

In addition, after reading some of the journals of Soren Kierkegaard, I'd consider him a role model - he does what he believes is right, no matter what the personal cost. He even broke off his engagement to the only woman he ever loved because he thought it was best. That's courage.

Lastly, I have had a couple of professors that made me think, "Wow, I really want to be like that." My political science instructor was the first - he taught me the facts, and then taught me how to deal with them. There was no "WRONG!"; only, "It's wrong because..."

The second professor was for philosophy. He, in addition to shaping a large part of my philosophical outlook, never considered a question too foolish or an answer too trivial. I owe him a debt of gratitude, and I would love to be similar to him if at all possible.


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Old 02-05-2009, 11:31 PM   #40
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