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Old 02-18-2009, 02:59 PM   #1
Q
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Possible Solutions

I'd like to start out by stating that I recognize that LF is in danger of imploding. If I have in any way contributed to this over the past several months (and I believe that I have), then I am truly sorry. I just want this place to be like it was before the days of political agendas and (perceived or actual) forum snobbery.

The purpose for this thread is for anyone to state their ideas on how to rectify the situation before LucasForums is irrevocably flushed down the toilet.

This is not a thread for finger pointing, denials, snide remarks, insults, derisive "serious business" humor-spamming or other forms of blatant obstructionism. If it degenerates into such, I will come to the conclusion that the offenders actually want the situation to remain as it is and I will request that it be locked immediately. I will then admit to myself that the situation is indeed hopeless and quit the forum, so if anyone really does want me gone, here's your chance.

This thread is for serious ideas on possible solutions only.

Now to the point:

1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them?

2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
These have to stop. I recognize that they are used in an effort to smooth over arguments and to eliminate the offensive nature of certain comments in order to prevent people's feelings from being hurt, but they are having a very detrimental effect by preventing conflict resolution and giving the impression of censorship and bias. Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all (sans profanity and obscene photos, links and other objects), so that everyone can see exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. The only editing to offending posts should be moderator comments and the removal of the afore-mentioned profanity/obscenity. This will (hopefully) have the following effects:

a) To dispel impressions, be they real or imagined, of favoritism, censorship, the destroying of evidence and the sweeping of unpleasantries under the rug.

b) To enforce permanent accountability on any and all posters, including staff, by preventing the exploitation of the current policy of snipping and deleting flames and other forms of asshattery by depending upon it to cover their tracks. This should make anyone think twice before posting because once it's there, it's there for good and for all to see and use for future reference.

3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.

4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.


That's all I can think of right now. I welcome everyone to come forward and put forth their ideas in a civilized manner.


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Last edited by Q; 02-18-2009 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
If I have in any way contributed to this over the past several months (and I believe that I have), then I am truly sorry.[/b]
I second that - if i've contributed to any of the problems, then I'll apologise now.

Quote:
if anyone really does want me gone, here's your chance.
I have no problems with anyone (as far as i'm aware), and would hate to see someone such as yourself leave.

Quote:
1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them
A few months ago, I likely would have disagreed, but now, I share the sentiment. The sniping and heightened feelings that often take place there have started to spill over into other areas of KOTOR - and, while it appears to have died down, it did make me want to leave for a time as well.

Quote:
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
I'm on the fence with this - I can understand both sides, but it's not something that overly bothers me much.

Quote:
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
That sounds like a reasonable idea.

Quote:
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
Not sure about that - I can see the benefits, and it would certainly dispel any notions of favoritism.

Quote:
I welcome everyone to come forward and put forth their ideas in a civilized manner.
Duly Noted.






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Old 02-18-2009, 04:54 PM   #3
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Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all
I couldn't disagree more - If you want posts that break the rules and are offensive left as they were then one of the admins might as well go and delete all forum rules stickies across all the boards.

Anywhere that's open to people from across the world with different beliefs, attitudes and cultures need some basic rules, I can't think of any forums that don't have a set of rules - And if those rules are broken then the user has to be reprimanded and the post, or part of it, must be removed.

What would you think if you came across a forum the size of LF and found it full of posts that are rude and constantly flaming other members? I would personally think sod that and go somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
I'm not meaning to be rude here but there's only one reply I can think of to this - Rubbish. How on earth can anything be decided if everyone had a say in it? There would be too many opinions and there would be no way that everyone would agree to whatever was being discussed, in the end nothing would ever happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
Again all I can think of is rubbish and more or less the rest of my above comment. If you're worried about certain people and groups that may or may not be forming/already here - Before you know it they'll be staff.

Also I don't know if this is the way it always happens but when Fracture was about to be released, there was an announcement asking if anyone was interested in running the site and moderating the forums, as far as I know RoxStar and myself were the only people who volunteered to help, anyone else had as much of chance as we did.


I apologise if this has came over rude but this is my thoughts on it.

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Old 02-18-2009, 05:04 PM   #4
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I've seen forum democracies attempted at other, smaller communities. They even had a constitution. They don't work. There is no real power-checking, and eventually the admins decide to take matters into their own hands anyway (ie. the Empire). And that is their right as administrators. They are staff, chosen by other staff, who own LFNetwork and therefore are allowed to run the forums however they like, even at the cost of alienating a small minority of the members.

And we've seen how what happens when all members are allowed to "contribute" their opinions. If the staff thinks their councils will be more productive and efficient without the general riff-raff of the average spamming noob, then let them decide that for themselves.

I think the key is to just not get into one of those situations.


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Old 02-18-2009, 05:05 PM   #5
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As an addendum to the clause regarding deleting/modifying posts, I believe that if a thread becomes "off-topic", a moderator should list an example of what content an off-topic post might contain.

For example:

This thread is dealing with how to treat snakebite wounds, not about how many ways that Revan is teh pwnzors. Any posts containing anything not related to herpetology or first aid will be subject to modification, and perhaps a warning to the poster - PX

Okay, so that was a pretty schlocky example. But to the point, I've seen a sort flip-flopping in some threads which are "sorted" by certain staff members to "on-topic" and "off-topic". As far as I'm concerned, there should be a clear definition of what constitutes as an off-topic post, so that more off-topic-ness will be prevented, and that people won't be clueless to why his/her post was deleted.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I couldn't disagree more - If you want posts that break the rules and are offensive left as they were then one of the admins might as well go and delete all forum rules stickies across all the boards.

Anywhere that's open to people from across the world with different beliefs, attitudes and cultures need some basic rules, I can't think of any forums that don't have a set of rules - And if those rules are broken then the user has to be reprimanded and the post, or part of it, must be removed.

What would you think if you came across a forum the size of LF and found it full of posts that are rude and constantly flaming other members? I would personally think sod that and go somewhere else.
I can definately see where you're coming from, Stream. I know that, in the past, when people have said things to me that I felt were very offensive on a personal level, I would not have been happy for the comments to have remained.

Quote:
Again all I can think of is rubbish and more or less the rest of my above comment. If you're worried about certain people and groups that may or may not be forming/already here - Before you know it they'll be staff.
That's a good point. It might prevent a potential staff candidate, who, in the staff's eyes would perfect for the job, from being accepted because there may be some who have grievances with this person.

Or, at least, that's what I can envision happening, as it's happened in other places.






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Old 02-18-2009, 05:12 PM   #7
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I'll state that for starters, the need to bring this up again does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
The purpose for this thread is for anyone to state their ideas on how to rectify the situation before LucasForums is irrevocably flushed down the toilet.
There is nothing wrong with LucasForums except for maybe the fact that not a single new LucasArts game has brought in a serious influx of fans.

Now to the point:

Quote:
1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them?
Except, this was solved some time ago, problems have settled down, mods are more on top of the situation, and people are doing better at keeping their tongues in check.

Quote:
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
These have to stop. I recognize that they are used in an effort to smooth over arguments and to eliminate the offensive nature of certain comments in order to prevent people's feelings from being hurt, but they are having a very detrimental effect by preventing conflict resolution and giving the impression of censorship and bias. Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all (sans profanity and obscene photos, links and other objects), so that everyone can see exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. The only editing to offending posts should be moderator comments and the removal of the afore-mentioned profanity/obscenity. This will (hopefully) have the following effects:
That is a BAD idea, I know, I'm on DA, even DA has the power to hide comments(effectivly deleting them), and trust me, it saves so much strain in dealing with people replying to the same stuff over and over and over. Being able to edit posts, your own and moderate people's, is a wonderful ability that allows you to correct anything from spelling to clear up misconceptions.

Quote:
a) To dispel impressions, be they real or imagined, of favoritism, censorship, the destroying of evidence and the sweeping of unpleasantries under the rug.
Well there goes your noble ideas of "no political agendas", this is entirely political.

Quote:
b) To enforce permanent accountability on any and all posters, including staff, by preventing the exploitation of the current policy of snipping and deleting flames and other forms of asshattery by depending upon it to cover their tracks. This should make anyone think twice before posting because once it's there, it's there for good and for all to see and use for future reference.
So that racist, bigoted, rude, and outright inflammatory comments can be left to stir up more fire? That's a terrible idea. It won't make people think twice, if anything it will make people speak out even louder because they know they cannot be silenced. There are some terrible, terrible things said on the internet, and if you're going to eliminate any form of moderation, then it's going to become a major ****storm.

Quote:
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
On certain decisions, the public should not have a say in certain matters.

Quote:
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
Which will quickly be followed by favortism, nepotism, buying of votes, and internet apathy, as the internet always does. Voting on who should be in charge is a bad idea since there is no accountability and once you get ONE bad person in charge, a few moments and everything is destroyed.


The problems you complain about in politics have been solved, your desire to continually bring up this subject is only making the situation worse.


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Old 02-18-2009, 05:12 PM   #8
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Well, perhaps for new appointees, the staff should post a general thread for people to voice their opinions on the appointment.

"The LucasForums staff is considering ForumMember217 for the position of moderator in 'Forum ID 217.' If anyone has any comments, opinions, or disagreements with this appointment, please feel free to post them here or PM me personally. This thread will remain open for seven days, then which ForumMember217 will be automatically promoted unless the staff receives due cause to re-evaluate their decision."

This guarantees that the regular members will get their word in, anonymously or otherwise, but the ultimate choice would be left to the staff, as it should be.


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Old 02-18-2009, 05:16 PM   #9
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1. I respectfully disagree on disbanding Kavar's, and so did the majority of people in the thread on it in the SWK feedback forum. I hate the Senate. It hasn't existed 'successfully' for years--I and a number of others entered it and then just about as quickly left it because it's mean-spirited and nasty. I still want to discuss serious subjects, but I don't want to do it in a place where people are free to throw around ad hominems and flame with absolutely no consequence other than a 'please consider not being rude, or I'll say please consider not being rude again' comment from a mod once every 10 months if you're lucky. If you're not a war-protesting, communist/socialist, anti-theist elitist, you may as well skip the forum entirely. You'll never experience anything except flaming harassment and utter contempt there otherwise, and nothing will be done about it.

2. Snipping posts--I again disagree. When those posts stay, I've found that people read them, get mad, and respond, even when we moderators have dealt with the flamers. We remove the posts and comments that are against the rules to calm down the flames. The ideal would be if people never made the flaming comments in the first place, because then we'd never have to deal with the issue. However, when they're left in full view of the forum, people will come by hours and even days later, see the flame, and respond to the flame, and the flamee then feels compelled to respond back. We delete the stuff to cut the cycle off.

Also, I personally don't want to read through threads where people call each other nasty names and flame each other, even if I'm completely uninvolved. I read through GWguru where that kind of stuff isn't edited, and it's not fun. I feel as an outsider that I've been dragged into off-topic and unpleasant drama, and it makes the experience there feel unfriendly. Ahto has a reputation for being a nice place to be. Why? Because we get rid of the nasty crap. That part has worked well for years. I see no reason why we should change what's been successful there.

3. Post deletions--we soft-delete posts. They are part of the permanent record, but regular members can't see the posts. Staff can, and they are able to be accessed by any s-mod or admin for review at any time. Members are free to go to anyone up the chain of command if they have complaints about a particular staff member, and that person can look over the evidence and make a determination from there.

4. What staff meetings? The 3 of us that moderate Kavar's will chat frequently about whether we think something is a flame or not or breaks the rules or not, and what to do about it, whether it just bears watching, and so on. We don't have formal staff meetings. We're just a bunch of members who happen to also work on keeping some kind of quality control on the forum. That's it. Most of the things we discuss in the mod forum (which is what we'd theoretically be having any formal meeting if we had such) are about sanctions on members--that's not something we want to discuss in public. We sometimes deal with sensitive issues that need to stay private and not be in the public eye.

5. Where are you NOT being asked for your input? You have not one but two feedback forums, you've been asked what kind of badges you wanted when the owners (not us mere admin/s-mod/mod peons) decided to have badges on the forums, you were given input on whether Kavar's should stay open or not (see thread in SWK forum). My PM box is always open but you've not used it to talk to me about whatever the problem is that's bothering you in particular. I can't fix a problem I don't know about, and expecting me to just know you're mad at me about something when you never tell me, and then assuming negative things about me on top of that when I never meant any such thing, is really unfair.

6. Aristotle has made it clear that he, as owner, will be the final decision maker in any demotions. That's something none of the rest of us have control on as staff, much less members. Promotions--sure, we could have a vote. You would end up with what happened in the RD forum where the most popular people were voted in as mods and then disappeared about a month later.

Right now the staff look at who is in the forum who is getting along really well with the majority of the group, has made long-term positive contributions in the relevant section(s), can get along with the current staff well, and knows and follows the rules. The people who would win the popularity contest wouldn't necessarily meet all those criteria. I can think of several people who would win a popularity contest hands down who ignore rules. From an administrative standpoint, that's a recipe for disaster. The people who do the best jobs are often well-liked and regarded in the community but aren't necessarily the most popular. stoffe is without question one of the best moderators and administrators we've had, but she's a quiet person who likely would have felt very uncomfortable being put up for an election.

What would you do to ensure that the people who would do the best job, rather than are the most popular, would be selected for x post?


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Old 02-18-2009, 05:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjølen View Post
Well, perhaps for new appointees, the staff should post a general thread for people to voice their opinions on the appointment.

"The LucasForums staff is considering ForumMember217 for the position of moderator in 'Forum ID 217.' If anyone has any comments, opinions, or disagreements with this appointment, please feel free to post them here or PM me personally. This thread will remain open for seven days, then which ForumMember217 will be automatically promoted unless the staff receives due cause to re-evaluate their decision."

This guarantees that the regular members will get their word in, anonymously or otherwise, but the ultimate choice would be left to the staff, as it should be.
That is a feasible idea but in the end the staff do know what they're doing, they're not going to appoint someone if they didn't think said person was up to it.

Like I said earlier there's a lot of people with different beliefs and from different cultures, there'll be too many conflicting opinions and it could leave the staff second guessing their judgment for no reason.

Sometimes it is good to have opinions from various people but it can also be a bad thing too, in the end opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs smells the nicest.

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Old 02-18-2009, 05:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
I still want to discuss serious subjects, but I don't want to do it in a place where people are free to throw around ad hominems and flame with absolutely no consequence other than a 'please consider not being rude, or I'll say please consider not being rude again' comment from a mod once every 10 months if you're lucky.
That's a good point. I'm not a regular visitor to the Senate, so I can't comment about the way things are conducted there.

The main problem I had with Kavars was that the negative attitudes that were developing a few months ago were spilling out into the rest of the board (you'll remember we discussed it a month or so ago), but things have calmed down over the past few weeks.






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Old 02-18-2009, 05:34 PM   #12
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That is a feasible idea but in the end the staff do know what they're doing, they're not going to appoint someone if they didn't think said person was up to it.
Of course, the staff should already be aware of the member's standing in the forum before considering the appointment, but this would be more for the sake of the members than the staff. If the staff did their homework beforehand the person they appoint would likely have little to no opposition, but I can see how the average member could start complaining that the staff "doesn't listen to their opinions anymore!"


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Old 02-18-2009, 06:39 PM   #13
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Disclaimer, these opinions entirely represent me, and not the rest of the Staff nor Lucas Forums* TM

I would like to at this point remind people of the Rules everyone agree's to on sign up;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terms and Conditions
LucasForums Rules

Although the administrators and moderators of LucasForums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of LucasForums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of LucasForums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread or post for any reason.
(Found, here; http://www.lucasforums.com/misc.php?do=showrules )

For the main, I think this deals with a few points, Q, I like you and very much want you to stick around, but I'm affraid I can't agree with your general points here. Firstly Lucas Forums is PG-13, so some posts have to be edited or deleted (such as say if a Porn bot posts link), but due to the sign up points, I don't think your complaint can stand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
I'd like to start out by stating that I recognize that LF is in danger of imploding. If I have in any way contributed to this over the past several months (and I believe that I have), then I am truly sorry. I just want this place to be like it was before the days of political agendas and (perceived or actual) forum snobbery.
I'm not convinced LF is going to implode, though, I think membership isn't what it once was. May I query Political agenda's who has a political agenda and what for? I'm unsure what staff can do about Forum snobbery?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
The purpose for this thread is for anyone to state their ideas on how to rectify the situation before LucasForums is irrevocably flushed down the toilet.
I can't speak for the whole forums, but I don't think SW:K is going down the pan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
This is not a thread for finger pointing, denials, snide remarks, insults, derisive "serious business" humor-spamming or other forms of blatant obstructionism. If it degenerates into such, I will come to the conclusion that the offenders actually want the situation to remain as it is and I will request that it be locked immediately. I will then admit to myself that the situation is indeed hopeless and quit the forum, so if anyone really does want me gone, here's your chance.
Please don't leave!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
This thread is for serious ideas on possible solutions only.
I'm affraid I'm not really going to list solutions here, but I hope you will see where I'm coming from. Please feel free to PM me any further clarifications as to problems you have in forum.

Now to the point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them?
I think after a couple of periods of tribulation Kavars is coming out of the issues it has had, if you had posted this a couple of months ago I may have taken more heed to it. Secondly, I would say the Senate is far more aggressive than Kavars, and isn't an environment, I or several members wish to post in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
These have to stop. I recognize that they are used in an effort to smooth over arguments and to eliminate the offensive nature of certain comments in order to prevent people's feelings from being hurt, but they are having a very detrimental effect by preventing conflict resolution and giving the impression of censorship and bias. Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all (sans profanity and obscene photos, links and other objects), so that everyone can see exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. The only editing to offending posts should be moderator comments and the removal of the afore-mentioned profanity/obscenity. This will (hopefully) have the following effects:

a) To dispel impressions, be they real or imagined, of favoritism, censorship, the destroying of evidence and the sweeping of unpleasantries under the rug.

b) To enforce permanent accountability on any and all posters, including staff, by preventing the exploitation of the current policy of snipping and deleting flames and other forms of asshattery by depending upon it to cover their tracks. This should make anyone think twice before posting because once it's there, it's there for good and for all to see and use for future reference.
This isn't in line with the TaC's of sign up. Regardless in a PG-13 Forum, and according to the owners it is neccasary to edit and delete posts. Lucas Forums enjoys a special relationship with Lucas Arts, if posts such as Porting/Piracy allowed, the legal ramifications would spell an end to that relationship. As a few counter arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
I can't agree, no decisions would be made, nor is the forum a democracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
If there is a forum 'elite' and cliques, this would only cause further issues rather than stop them. It would turn things into a popularity quest. I would also argue it would in fact allow certain people to get away with more because they are popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
That's all I can think of right now. I welcome everyone to come forward and put forth their ideas in a civilized manner.
I hope you feel I have done so



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Old 02-18-2009, 06:46 PM   #14
Darth InSidious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
I'd like to start out by stating that I recognize that LF is in danger of imploding. If I have in any way contributed to this over the past several months (and I believe that I have), then I am truly sorry. I just want this place to be like it was before the days of political agendas and (perceived or actual) forum snobbery.
Perceived by whom? I don't see implosion - just death by entropy from the lack of new members, and, to be quite honest, the lack of news relating to the games. TOR might lead to a resurgence, but I'm not seeing it at the moment.

From my perspective, the forum is turning into less of a loose community of random folks and more into groups of friends linked over the boards. It tends to happen.
Quote:
1) Kavar's:
Since we agree on this, I don't think there's much point in me commenting, since I've got nothing to add here.

Quote:
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
To be quite honest, this is more likely to cause more permanent rifts in the forum as people disagree on crap, get angry, etc. and vendettas form. Seen it elsewhere, and the end result is not pretty. And if you think the staff here are biased, believe me, for their no doubt many flaws, the staff here do a hell of a good job in comparison to elsewhere. Seemingly-random anecdote, but a friend of mine was perma-banned from a forum after being effectively told not to post by the admin.

Quote:
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
Nice idea, but how do you include the entire forum in, say, an MSN chat? And also, sometimes decisions get made on the line by the staff member who's around. In the middle of a flame war that's about to engulf the whole forum is not really the best time for calling a general forum round-table on policy.

Quote:
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
Seriously, terrible idea. Again, I've seen it elsewhere. This leads to:
1) A popularity contest,
2) Open civil war.

Neither of which mean is good.



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Old 02-18-2009, 07:08 PM   #15
Q
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Originally Posted by Web Rider View Post
Well there goes your noble ideas of "no political agendas", this is entirely political.
How so? Is a desire for honesty and accountability political?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
The problems you complain about in politics have been solved,
I wasn't aware of that. Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
your desire to continually bring up this subject is only making the situation worse.
Outside of a couple of remarks that I made months ago, when have I "continually" brought this up before the past couple of days? Please either refresh my memory, or refrain from painting me as a habitual whiner. And where's all of this "again" crap coming from? Has someone else pulled something similar? That would explain a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
My PM box is always open but you've not used it to talk to me about whatever the problem is that's bothering you in particular.
Because it feels like "ratting", which I find distasteful if not despicable, and the two or three occasions that I have taken the time to do so in the nearly three years that I've been here didn't seem to solve anything, making the whole process appear to be an unpleasant waste of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
I can't fix a problem I don't know about, and expecting me to just know you're mad at me about something when you never tell me, and then assuming negative things about me on top of that when I never meant any such thing, is really unfair.
With all due respect: to be blunt, the last couple times I've PMed you about forum policy (how many months ago was that?), I honestly got the impression that you were blowing smoke up my ass. I didn't feel like I could trust you any more. If that was incorrect, I'm sorry that I misjudged you. Does that explain my behavior towards you sufficiently?


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them?
I disagree. Kavar is doing much better now and it was meant to be different from the Senate. There are three very responsible moderators to take the decisions there and they do have my complete trust. Part of the past problem was that there were too many people involved in moderation there (including me), each with their own level of tolerance and we ended up having moderation which was not uniform and in the end, no one knew where to draw the line. This problem has been fixed now.

Quote:
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
These have to stop. I recognize that they are used in an effort to smooth over arguments and to eliminate the offensive nature of certain comments in order to prevent people's feelings from being hurt, but they are having a very detrimental effect by preventing conflict resolution and giving the impression of censorship and bias. Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all (sans profanity and obscene photos, links and other objects), so that everyone can see exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. The only editing to offending posts should be moderator comments and the removal of the afore-mentioned profanity/obscenity. This will (hopefully) have the following effects:To dispel impressions, be they real or imagined, of favoritism, censorship, the destroying of evidence and the sweeping of unpleasantries under the rug.
And then the flames would continue endlessly and the person who's being flamed at would, rightfully, be very displeased. Besides, the "evidence" isn't really "destroyed". Besides, we also keep a history of all our decisions.

Quote:
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
No, especially since we often have to deal with private information. It is also the standard in the great majority of forums around the net.

Quote:
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
The staff members are chosen based on their posting history and our needs (sometimes we look for someone with specific knowledge per example). It's not a popularity contest. I think that all the swk staff members are people with a very solid background.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
With all due respect: to be blunt, the last couple times I've PMed you about forum policy (how many months ago was that?), I honestly got the impression that you were blowing smoke up my ass. If that was incorrect, I'm sorry that I misjudged you. Does that explain my behavior towards you sufficiently?
Honestly, no, it doesn't, because I'd have to see the PM and reply again to know what we're talking about. I can check my PM box to see what I have, but I'm not sure if I still have it.


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:22 PM   #18
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Look Q I have no agenda here, you know I'm nothing but a lowly former wannabe modder. The point is I hold no remorse towards you or anyone for that matter. Hell I hardly come here for extended periods of time, but even I know that what you're asking for is for the most part, largely unreasonable.

Let's dissect this thing point by point.

Quote:
1) Kavar's:
Admittedly I'm the last person to know anything about Kavar's or the Senate Chambers. What you have going at Kavar's is simple, as stated in the description of the forums: A place for friendly discussion of serious topics. If you look deeper you'll also find an area for politics and religion. Politics and religion sounds like the things that start wars, you know like the Crusades, just an example. When people are being serious about politics and religion you're going to have heated arguments, there is simply no way to get around that. Now you're asking for those arguments to not be moderated and regulated, so you're asking for war without rules... define: anarchy. Which takes us to point 2.

Quote:
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
They can't stop, just think about it again. You really want the flame/anger inducing posts to remain as such, to cause continued grief and petulance? You disparage censorship with the claim that it prevents everyone from seeing exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. Is it really a matter for everyone to see though? Let's say for example a post had greatly offended you, and action was taken against the member that made that post. Would you honestly want that post that offended you so much to be left intact to offend others? Can you see the contradiction in what you're asking?

Furthermore I believe that this has already been addressed, but deleted posts aren't entirely deleted, hence why your post count doesn't decrease if a post is deleted. So provided you require the necessary posts to prove a point, by going through the proper avenue, you can get what is needed. You have multiple feedback options available to you, first of all you have these feedback forums, but you also know the staff, and you can contact them directly. Do you realize how much that departs from your average internet ****fest of a forum? There are not that many large forums out there where you are capable of direct communication with the staff. Most of the time you don't even know who the staff is.

Quote:
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
Come on now, you know this isn't a reasonable request nor is it necessary. If every change were to be debated on by the entirety of the community, nothing would ever get done. Besides, as I mentioned above the feedback loop is there, you have several outlets to voice your opinion, and the staff is there to discuss them with you. Heck, usually the staff are the ones that create threads asking for comments about forum changes.

Quote:
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
Simply put, no. You want all forum members to have a say in the assignment of staff members? How does that depart from the favoritism that you claim exists? Opening this would be like voting for your class president in high school, if it's between a cheerleader and the chess club leader, who do you think it going to win, and how is that anything but favoritism. I think what you actually want out of this is to be able to influence the decision behind the appointments of staff members. Need I refer to the outlets available for feedback again?

Q, the point is, you're claiming that there is some underlying conspiracy or that LFN is in a state of turmoil. That's simply not the case, if you find that you can't trust anyone here I feel terribly for you. I've met almost nothing but people with the right mindset while I've been here, especially within the staff. As far as Kavar squabbles spilling into Ahto et al I can't comment on that specifically as I try to avoid Kavar's like the plague because I'm not a serious guy. If you want my opinion on what's happening in the KotOR forums, if anything significant is indeed happening, it's the aging of the games.

If you look far enough back at the KotOR forums it was born and raised around Holowan and the modding community. The game has aged and the people that started that community have largely moved on so that influence is gone. If anything you're looking at the foundation of a building that's been crumbling and has been patched with new members and a shift in attitude. Yea my metaphors suck, deal with it.


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
1) Kavar's:
It was a noble experiment, but I agree with Darth InSidious' assessment that it was doomed to failure from the very beginning and has acted as a sort of cancer, with arguments and agendas spreading to Ahto and beyond. Various treatments have been applied to little or no effect and the only real solution left is for the KotOR forum to undergo radical surgery to have Kavar's permanently removed. Any and all political discussion (and agendas) should be relegated to the Senate Chambers, which has successfully existed for years without having the effect of poisoning the rest of the forum. I give credit to the Swampies for this, because they don't want and won't stand for that crap polluting their little corner of LF, and really: who can blame them?
It has not successfully existed for years.

Know why I like posting there from time to time? Because it is the most lax on rules. Meaning I can post pretty much any insult I want as long as it has something to do with the topic. Should I be allowed? I don't think so, but as long as the staff there is going to be lax then sure. You'll also notice that senate is hardly active a lot. The only reason it has had an influx as of late is because everybody is enjoying the opportunity to chew out a certain member.

I would hardly call that a successful forum.

I, however, agree with you on Kavars and was the one that started the vote within the staff for its possible closure. It was voted against, so we opened it back up again for now. But, as has been said, it is your choice and your choice only that determines if you post, read, or are infracted for being in that forum. If you don't like Kavars, then just leave it. Thats what I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
These have to stop. I recognize that they are used in an effort to smooth over arguments and to eliminate the offensive nature of certain comments in order to prevent people's feelings from being hurt, but they are having a very detrimental effect by preventing conflict resolution and giving the impression of censorship and bias. Offensive and rule-breaking posts should be left as they are, warts and all (sans profanity and obscene photos, links and other objects), so that everyone can see exactly why certain actions are being taken by members of the staff. The only editing to offending posts should be moderator comments and the removal of the afore-mentioned profanity/obscenity. This will (hopefully) have the following effects:
You just contradicted yourself. You said leave them there, but then you stated that it is ok for staff to remove them.

Which is it?

Again, a misunderstanding on how the staff works. Posts are not deleted. They are hidden from members. You may not see your post when it is deleted, but moderators can.

And no, we will not allow members to see what we have deleted, give them the option to, or leave there there with a mod note. Your no censorship flag is admirable, but we actually have some laws we have to follow here.

If a bot or member posts child porn, we are not going to put a tag under neither saying "beware" and leave it as is. If someone posts the "N" word a thousand times in a post, we are not going to put a mod note under it and leave it as is.

Want to know the actual way of fixing this?

Don't post things we need to snip or delete.

Try some self moderating guys. If you don't want your posts to be snipped, then for the love of god stop insulting, flaming, and sniping each other. We don't have to snip anything if you don't post any rule breaking posts in the first place.

It has been spun that we are snipping and deleting because we have some kind of agenda going on. It can easily be spun backwards to say that the people complaining about snipping are the people that cannot control their ability to follow the rules in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
b) To enforce permanent accountability on any and all posters, including staff, by preventing the exploitation of the current policy of snipping and deleting flames and other forms of asshattery by depending upon it to cover their tracks. This should make anyone think twice before posting because once it's there, it's there for good and for all to see and use for future reference.
Yeah, that child porn bot really showed me.

If you are trying to prevent rifts, you are going in the wrong direction. A forum with no rules, accountability, or staff is an idea that would never work. It just wouldn't.

Utopias do not exist, and frankly turning this forum into some kind of neo-communist democracy would work about as well as it has worked for Russia or China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
Nothing would get done. Plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
One problem with this:
fa⋅vor⋅it⋅ism
   /ˈfeɪvərɪˌtɪzəm, ˈfeɪvrɪ-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fey-ver-i-tiz-uhm, feyv-ri-] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the favoring of one person or group over others with equal claims; partiality: to show favoritism toward the youngest child.
2. the state of being a favorite.


Your cure for favoritism is favoritism.

There would be no staff. A staff member would be put up for demotion vote anytime he did someone that people did not agree with, like ban or infract someone.

Unfortunately, you have to have someone in charge and if the current state of the forum is any indication, the current staff would be all voted off and any new staff wouldn't last a week.

Which brings me to my next point:

Are you asking to be a moderator? Not you, Qliv, but a lot of the people bringing up these complaints.

I can assure you that you want nothing to do with this job. I've seen more drama in this staff than in my actual life. There is enough hate, pain, drama, etc to go around to fill a mid-day soap opera for years.

This job is not fun. It is not rewarding. It is, for the most part, thankless and a massive pain in the ass. New staff quickly realize that they've gotten into a bunch of drama way over their heads.

Ask mimartin. He was one of the ones criticizing us before he became a staff member, and has since apologized. I'm not asking for an apology from you; I am simply stating that there more activity within the staff than is being considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
Because it feels like "ratting", which I find distasteful if not despicable
If nobody ratted on anyone else, nothing would be accomplished. It would be chaos. Nobody would be held accountable for anything.

We seem to have exact opposite viewpoints on justice. You feel that nobody should be held accountable for what they do, instead their sins being held out in the open so that they may do justice upon themselves.

Personally, I feel that if you've done someone then someone should hold you accountable for it. If someone runs off the street and hits me with their car, I'd appreciate someone telling me who hit me with a damn car instead of hoping that they would "feel bad" about doing it later. If someone raped me or a friend, I doubt the person who did it is going to feel bad about themselves later.

You let everyone flame and bite each other without any punishment but of which they exact on themselves, then you have anarchistic chaos and civilization would crumble and burn.

Anarchy isn't law for good reason. If it was, we'd be Sudan.

Parents who don't punish their kids get spoiled and rotten children for good reason.
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:43 PM   #20
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Not everyone is a nice person, sad but true. What some people find to be satire, comes across as sarcasm. Yea I've been deeply offended my certain people every time I've encountered them but that's life, and I tend not to post where they do.

In all honesty this is one of the better forums regarding most of the points in question, and in the small amount of dealings I've had with staff I've been treated well (Apart from that Infraction :shakesfist: j/k)

I only recently started paying much attention to anything other than the top section of the KotOR forum. Religion and politics kinda go over my head so I tend not to get emotionally involved.

I respect your candor Q, but I dont see the end of LF just yet


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick187 View Post
Furthermore I believe that this has already been addressed, but deleted posts aren't entirely deleted, hence why your post count doesn't decrease if a post is deleted.
It does, actually.




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Old 02-18-2009, 07:50 PM   #22
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It does, actually.
I could've sworn mine never did when I got deleted , meh small detail that is insignificant anyway.


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:56 PM   #23
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Since everyone else seems to think the forums are running fine as they are, I suggest one infinitely useful solution to everyone:

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.”
- Mahatma Gandhi


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Old 02-18-2009, 07:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Know why I like posting there from time to time? Because it is the most lax on rules. Meaning I can post pretty much any insult I want as long as it has something to do with the topic.
Good mindset for staff to have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery
I can assure you that you want nothing to do with this job. I've seen more drama in this staff than in my actual life. There is enough hate, pain, drama, etc to go around to fill a mid-day soap opera for years.

This job is not fun. It is not rewarding. It is, for the most part, thankless and a massive pain in the ass. New staff quickly realize that they've gotten into a bunch of drama way over their heads.
Baw? The simple answer to your plight is to just resign, since you hate it so much.

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Old 02-18-2009, 08:21 PM   #25
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drop the post table, ban everyone



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Old 02-18-2009, 08:27 PM   #26
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Good mindset for staff to have
Don't look at me. Look at the moderators that made the rules.

I don't think I should be able to own an assault rifle. Am I going to eventually get one? Hell yeah I am.

Just because I think I shouldn't be able to do something doesn't mean I wont given the chance. I personally don't think I should be given the flightstick to an f-22, but I'd take the chance in a second.

Hypocritical? Yes. As such, I apologize for being human and not meeting this forums unreasonable expectations of the staff gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Baw? The simple answer to your plight is to just resign, since you hate it so much.
I don't hate it. It it just an annoying job.

I just happen to find an attraction to pointless drama. If you do to, feel free to volunteer to help the staff. If you don't like having a vein throb, then stay away.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Good mindset for staff to have


Baw? The simple answer to your plight is to just resign, since you hate it so much.

_EW_
You made me laugh, Ender, but you're not helping.

And now we all know your secret desires.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:43 PM   #28
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I personally think the staff are doing are pretty good jobs of running things - i've no complaints, and have always found them to be extremely approachable if i've needed to raise an issue with them.






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Old 02-18-2009, 08:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Don't look at me. Look at the moderators that made the rules.
Except that you are a moderator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
I just happen to find an attraction to pointless drama. If you do to, feel free to volunteer to help the staff. If you don't like having a vein throb, then stay away.
If the staff ever asked me to take a position, I would do it in order to serve the community of which I am a member. However, that's not likely to happen anytime soon, and you don't see me knocking down any doors to get my name in bold. I don't necessarily go looking for trouble.

So for now, I'm here, explaining why a staffperson should not undermine other staff and why you should either not complain about your position or quit.

_EW_


EDIT::
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_K
I personally think the staff are doing are pretty good jobs of running things - i've no complaints, and have always found them to be extremely approachable if i've needed to raise an issue with them.
FTR - I wholeheartedly agree with you, Astor.



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Old 02-18-2009, 08:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
I personally think the staff are doing are pretty good jobs of running things - i've no complaints, and have always found them to be extremely approachable if i've needed to raise an issue with them.
I think that part of my problem could be summed up as not approaching them enough, and that on one of the few occasions that I did, it was the wrong time to do it and it was about the wrong person.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:36 PM   #31
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Except that you are a moderator.
Not of Senate. I don't tell them how to do their job, and they don't tell me how to do mine. Senate is there, its rules are there, and the moderators have their way of doing things.

Thus back to my point that the staff is hardly as organized and united as many people seem to believe.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
So for now, I'm here, explaining why a staffperson should not undermine other staff
I am not undermining them. I am a member posting in a forum that is run by staff who have jurisdiction over that area, while I do not. I stay out of their business, and they stay out of mine.

If I wanted to undermine them I'd be posting in Senate about how bad I think the mods are. If I wanted to undermine them, I'd be giving infractions and/or banning people who post in senate. I do not, however, because they seem to have a stable thing going. I do not agree with the rules all the way, but they are in place.

And just like Kavars, neither I nor anyone else has to go into the forum by force.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
and why you should either not complain about your position or quit.
Oh if you could only see the staff forums...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
I think that part of my problem could be summed up as not approaching them enough, and that on one of the few occasions that I did, it was the wrong time to do it and it was about the wrong person.
Agreed completely.

People were not getting their satisfied results from reports and such, so they would spam stoffe, d3, and tk with demands that things get done. Tk and stoffe are hardly the people to run to, and it has caused a lot of drama between the admin and moderator portions of the staff.

We need input, but going over mods heads to other mods and admins is just as bad as the staff undermining each other, or purposely undermining members.

People do not trust the mods to get things done much anymore, and it is starting to bleed over as mistrust between the staff. Staff demanding things get done in forums that do not belong to them, or punishing members in forums they have no privilege to be punishing in is one of the main problems we've been trying to fix lately.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:47 PM   #32
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I will then admit to myself that the situation is indeed hopeless and quit the forum, so if anyone really does want me gone, here's your chance.
The only reason I am replying to this tread is because I do not want this to happen. Normally I’d take this to PM, but since you seem to want things publically stated I will post it here.


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Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
[ 1) Kavar's:
The only reason I’m still around here is because of Kavar. If Kavar goes, I will most likely be gone too. Not because I would be angry with Kavar’s closure, but there would be no point for me hanging around here. I’ve enjoyed Kavar existence and even though my post count as gone down in Kavar since my promotion, that has nothing to do with my feelings towards Kavar. It has do to me being uncomfortable moderating a thread that I have posted in. This is not an indictment of any moderator doing their moderating duty in a thread they posted in, it only has to do with me not being comfortable doing it. This also does not mean I will not do it in the future if the need arises and I cannot find a member of the staff to correct a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
2) Post editing, snipping and deletions:
Totally disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rules of Kavar
Moderators will edit or delete posts as they see fit to enforce these rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum rules and guidelines
The staff reserves the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread or post for any reason deemed necessary.
I think long and hard before I delete anything. I look really hard to make sure I'm not misinterpreting the meaning of the post. I soft delete everything so that another member of the staff can verify if my decision was correct or not. We also have discussions by IM and PM. If I hand out a warning or infraction there is a system in place to view and evaluate that decision by the entire staff. On a personal note, I will listen to anyone and reevaluate any decision I've made. I know I am human and I know I make mistakes. I don’t want to give infractions, edit or delete post, but that is a hazard of the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
a) To dispel impressions, be they real or imagined, of favoritism, censorship, the destroying of evidence and the sweeping of unpleasantries under the rug.
This one annoys me and I take it as a personal insult for reason you have no way of knowing about. However, if anyone ever see me showing favoritism toward anyone, please point it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
b) To enforce permanent accountability on any and all posters, including staff, by preventing the exploitation of the current policy of snipping and deleting flames and other forms of asshattery by depending upon it to cover their tracks. This should make anyone think twice before posting because once it's there, it's there for good and for all to see and use for future reference.
Already covered this with two excerpts from Kavar and the forum rules. I would suggest everyone read and follow the rules and there will be no need to delete, edit or snip post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
3) Staff meetings and decision-making:
Should be open to the public and subject to oversight and input by all forum members.
No, there is no reason for anyone to know what disciplinary action is taken against another member. If that member wants you to know, they can tell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
4) Promotions and demotions:
Should be decided upon by all forum members.
I’m unclear on what the procedure is now. However, I don’t believe in letting the inmates run the asylum.

I still have no clue on why I was chosen in Kavar. After all, my best friend on the forum is someone that some consider a troublemaker. I sometime feel like whoever is in charge made a terrible mistake. I was asked, I talked to “that friend” about it and was about to turn it down. For some reason I love the insanity that is known as Kavar, so I decided to accept the offer for one cookie a week. Really I agreed so that I could try to give something back to the community I love.

Qliveur I a moderator of Kavar, if you have a problem with Kavar you can always PM me. I don’t want to lose you or anyone else as a member. Even though we have not always agreed politically, I do respect your opinion.

Last edited by mimartin; 02-19-2009 at 01:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:22 AM   #33
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None of those will work Qliveur, what you're suggesting is a democracy and democracies only work in government administration, not a video game discussion forum. The same approach doesn't work everywhere.

I have discussed this matter with a few friends of my clique and this came of it:

1. Origin
The source of this whole problem is, quite frankly, that the forum has gone stale. There have been two great hotspots in LF: the Swamp and the Spaceport, both of which were water coolers for the modding and game discussion communities of the two games.

As time passes and the game gets older, people discuss about it less and the game forums are eventually left to the newbies altogether (take a spin around them sometime you elitist snobs). On the contrary, the off-topic forum got a lot more popular as it allowed for discussion on an infinitely wider range of topics.

The more serious topics were then lumped into Kavar's. Nothing bad so far. Problem starts like so: many users associate Kavar's with greater importance than the other forums and even though they came to the forums for game discussion, end up throwing pies at each other over Obama's spending policy.

So that is our first problem: that the primary focus of these forums shifted from the game itself to the off-topic forums.

2. Cliques, Elites and Other French-Origin Words
I will be so bold as to risk being labelled a sonofabitch and blame Skype as one of the reasons behind this whole hullabaloo. Some users will remember that I was reluctant to join Skype and liked to pretend I was a gothic mysticist in the Knights Chat.

The reason was, I saw an esoteric club that had been formed between members of the forum. This is not an inherently bad idea, but when the club ends up bitching about each other, laughing at other members of the forum, devising ideas and being very sneaky in general, problems start happening.

I will also not deny that there is something of a cabal and at least a perceived thread of favouritism in the Skype cult. The best example I can give you is the controversial stickying of the Imperial appointments thread, which speaks for itself.

And as any expert of Skype Dramaz will tell you, there are groups within the Skype group, and individual friendships within these, many perniciously working against each other in some kind of weird festive pagan clockwork.

As much as I enjoy the company of some of the people I've met in Skype, I know it feels like some exclusive high school club of elites that all the nerds and dorks have to stay out of. And I can tell these nerds and dorks know this, and most probably don't like it.

Don't mean to drag Skype dramaz to the forum, but my point is: there is an undeniable closed group consisting of a sizeable number of forum veterans and regular members including a number of the Knights staff members.

What we are now going through is a stage of decay where distrust has bred throughout the forums and rather than as idle commentors, users take each other very seriously as human beings.

3. Perfect Post-Apocalyptic Mumbo-Jumbo
I do not know what can come of this or how this can be solved; one solution I have in mind is to let it pass. Sooner or later, a newer community will be inhaled and many of the older members will pass out. That may happen with TOR, that may not happen with TOR. Maybe all of LF is in a decline now. I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball.

In any case, as per the theory I have stated in the first part of this reply; we need more users that care about the game and come here everyday to discuss their views and opinions on the game at hand, rather than an all manner of unrelated things. The mental frame of LucasForums being a game discussion forum and a fan community needs to be resurrected and the entire oil spill will clean itself up.

And the only way this can happen, is if LucasArts gives us something to talk about, hence my hope for TOR. I like where it has gone so far and I've noticed dozens of new users. I want this figure to grow and eclipse the JK and KotOR members, so that a new era of the forum dawns and all of this bad blood and controversy is buried under the soil.

4. Myopia
Looking back to the present: I don't think any constitutional reforms need to be taken in the forum to bring change, neither do we need a charming black man to take over Aristotle's seat. Our staff is, to my knowledge, working the best they can and I still find the forums sufficiently usable and entertaining. So long as it stays like that, I will continue to visit.

The social phenomenon will have to change on its own, how and when I cannot predict. Everybody needs to lighten up, stop relating with each other so deeply and be sensible in general.

Peace my brothers and sisters,
El Sabre


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Old 02-19-2009, 12:34 AM   #34
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I'm going to have to agree with Sabre on this.

While it is true there is a skype chat that goes pretty much 24/7 with staff and members, the cliques that have formed from this are a side effect of the main problem of there simply being no games left to talk about in our gaming forum.

Cliques are unavoidable. Staff distrust is unavoidable. Favoritism, etc is all unavoidable.

These problems have just been more pronounced lately because the forum is simply decaying. Lucas doesn't release enough lately, so all we really have left to talk about is off-topic and bicker with each other.

I don't think there really is a solution to this problem until TOR is released and the community is given new life. Until then, all I can really say to both staff and members is...

Hold on.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:42 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Agreed completely.
We are capable of it, after all. Sorry for being such an evil bastard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
None of those will work Qliveur, what you're suggesting is a democracy and democracies only work in government administration, not a video game discussion forum. The same approach doesn't work everywhere.

I have discussed this matter with a few friends of my clique and this came of it:

1. Origin
The source of this whole problem is, quite frankly, that the forum has gone stale. There have been two great hotspots in LF: the Swamp and the Spaceport, both of which were water coolers for the modding and game discussion communities of the two games.

As time passes and the game gets older, people discuss about it less and the game forums are eventually left to the newbies altogether (take a spin around them sometime you elitist snobs). On the contrary, the off-topic forum got a lot more popular as it allowed for discussion on an infinitely wider range of topics.

The more serious topics were then lumped into Kavar's. Nothing bad so far. Problem starts like so: many users associate Kavar's with greater importance than the other forums and even though they came to the forums for game discussion, end up throwing pies at each other over Obama's spending policy.

So that is our first problem: that the primary focus of these forums shifted from the game itself to the off-topic forums.

2. Cliques, Elites and Other French-Origin Words
I will be so bold as to risk being labelled a sonofabitch and blame Skype as one of the reasons behind this whole hullabaloo. Some users will remember that I was reluctant to join Skype and liked to pretend I was a gothic mysticist in the Knights Chat.

The reason was, I saw an esoteric club that had been formed between members of the forum. This is not an inherently bad idea, but when the club ends up bitching about each other, laughing at other members of the forum, devising ideas and being very sneaky in general, problems start happening.

I will also not deny that there is something of a cabal and at least a perceived thread of favouritism in the Skype cult. The best example I can give you is the controversial stickying of the Imperial appointments thread, which speaks for itself.

And as any expert of Skype Dramaz will tell you, there are groups within the Skype group, and individual friendships within these, many perniciously working against each other in some kind of weird festive pagan clockwork.

As much as I enjoy the company of some of the people I've met in Skype, I know it feels like some exclusive high school club of elites that all the nerds and dorks have to stay out of. And I can tell these nerds and dorks know this, and most probably don't like it.

Don't mean to drag Skype dramaz to the forum, but my point is: there is an undeniable closed group consisting of a sizeable number of forum veterans and regular members including a number of the Knights staff members.

What we are now going through is a stage of decay where distrust has bred throughout the forums and rather than as idle commentors, users take each other very seriously as human beings.

3. Perfect Post-Apocalyptic Mumbo-Jumbo
I do not know what can come of this or how this can be solved; one solution I have in mind is to let it pass. Sooner or later, a newer community will be inhaled and many of the older members will pass out. That may happen with TOR, that may not happen with TOR. Maybe all of LF is in a decline now. I don't know, I don't have a crystal ball.

In any case, as per the theory I have stated in the first part of this reply; we need more users that care about the game and come here everyday to discuss their views and opinions on the game at hand, rather than an all manner of unrelated things. The mental frame of LucasForums being a game discussion forum and a fan community needs to be resurrected and the entire oil spill will clean itself up.

And the only way this can happen, is if LucasArts gives us something to talk about, hence my hope for TOR. I like where it has gone so far and I've noticed dozens of new users. I want this figure to grow and eclipse the JK and KotOR members, so that a new era of the forum dawns and all of this bad blood and controversy is buried under the soil.

4. Myopia
Looking back to the present: I don't think any constitutional reforms need to be taken in the forum to bring change, neither do we need a charming black man to take over Aristotle's seat. Our staff is, to my knowledge, working the best they can and I still find the forums sufficiently usable and entertaining. So long as it stays like that, I will continue to visit.

The social phenomenon will have to change on its own, how and when I cannot predict. Everybody needs to lighten up, stop relating with each other so deeply and be sensible in general.

Peace my brothers and sisters,
El Sabre
Thank you so much for this post, Sabre. It cleared up a lot of things.

Moar!


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:58 AM   #36
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So now that everybody has heard from Q, maybe it would be a good idea if the other aggrieved members explain their grievances.

I honestly don't think anyone has anything to fear from the staff, and surely, if things are brought out into the open, then the staff can see about adressing the issues, and putting everyone's minds at ease.

That's the only way I can see this being resolved in a way that would allow the community as a whole to move on.

EDIT: I realise this may seem hopelessly idealistic, given that no-one seems to trust anyone (and people seem to be afraid of the staff) any more, but it's a step in the right direction, isn't it?







Last edited by Astor; 02-19-2009 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:55 PM   #37
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There are like 2 dozen communities/forums each having multiple sections/sub-forums united here on LF, and most of them seem to work fine as is. And you want to change LF all over just because you have 'trouble' in like two of those sub-forums. I wouldn't say the Mojo-folks think they'd need any out of your revolutionary set of 'new' ideas. All it would do is to piss them off, and seriously it'd be a great loss to see them go just because someone feels whiny about a strict set of necessary rules. Etc, etc.


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Old 02-19-2009, 06:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
2. Cliques, Elites and Other French-Origin Words
I will be so bold as to risk being labelled a sonofabitch and blame Skype as one of the reasons behind this whole hullabaloo. Some users will remember that I was reluctant to join Skype and liked to pretend I was a gothic mysticist in the Knights Chat.

The reason was, I saw an esoteric club that had been formed between members of the forum. This is not an inherently bad idea, but when the club ends up bitching about each other, laughing at other members of the forum, devising ideas and being very sneaky in general, problems start happening.

I will also not deny that there is something of a cabal and at least a perceived thread of favouritism in the Skype cult. The best example I can give you is the controversial stickying of the Imperial appointments thread, which speaks for itself.

And as any expert of Skype Dramaz will tell you, there are groups within the Skype group, and individual friendships within these, many perniciously working against each other in some kind of weird festive pagan clockwork.

As much as I enjoy the company of some of the people I've met in Skype, I know it feels like some exclusive high school club of elites that all the nerds and dorks have to stay out of. And I can tell these nerds and dorks know this, and most probably don't like it.

Don't mean to drag Skype dramaz to the forum, but my point is: there is an undeniable closed group consisting of a sizeable number of forum veterans and regular members including a number of the Knights staff members.

What we are now going through is a stage of decay where distrust has bred throughout the forums and rather than as idle commentors, users take each other very seriously as human beings.
The problem as it seems to me though, that I'm unsure what Moderation staff are meant to do about the Skype issue? I can't really ban Skype, nor do I want to break contact with friends I have from the boards. With regards me and Skype; my Skype address is open to all at Lucas Forums, you only have to PM me asking for my Skype name and you may have it

I agree with Sabre's points, I am in the Skype chats but I don't think I'm a member of any cliques, I also know some subjects about Lucas Forums aren't discussed in front of me, as I will moderate anything in forum (you know who I'm talking about! ). I aim and would hope that my moderation here is the same regardless of who you are, and I hope that the majority of you feel that you are treated the same if/when I moderate any of you.

My 2 cents the thread in Ahto shouldn't of been stickied, if only for all the trouble its caused. It was a mistake, for me personally I wasn't around at the time (it was my bday around that time ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Looking back to the present: I don't think any constitutional reforms need to be taken in the forum to bring change, neither do we need a charming black man to take over Aristotle's seat. Our staff is, to my knowledge, working the best they can and I still find the forums sufficiently usable and entertaining. So long as it stays like that, I will continue to visit.

The social phenomenon will have to change on its own, how and when I cannot predict. Everybody needs to lighten up, stop relating with each other so deeply and be sensible in general.

Peace my brothers and sisters,
El Sabre
Good post Sabre-rooney!



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
2. Cliques, Elites and Other French-Origin Words
I will be so bold as to risk being labelled a sonofabitch and blame Skype as one of the reasons behind this whole hullabaloo. Some users will remember that I was reluctant to join Skype and liked to pretend I was a gothic mysticist in the Knights Chat.

The reason was, I saw an esoteric club that had been formed between members of the forum. This is not an inherently bad idea, but when the club ends up bitching about each other, laughing at other members of the forum, devising ideas and being very sneaky in general, problems start happening.

I will also not deny that there is something of a cabal and at least a perceived thread of favouritism in the Skype cult. The best example I can give you is the controversial stickying of the Imperial appointments thread, which speaks for itself.

And as any expert of Skype Dramaz will tell you, there are groups within the Skype group, and individual friendships within these, many perniciously working against each other in some kind of weird festive pagan clockwork.

As much as I enjoy the company of some of the people I've met in Skype, I know it feels like some exclusive high school club of elites that all the nerds and dorks have to stay out of. And I can tell these nerds and dorks know this, and most probably don't like it.

Don't mean to drag Skype dramaz to the forum, but my point is: there is an undeniable closed group consisting of a sizeable number of forum veterans and regular members including a number of the Knights staff members.

What we are now going through is a stage of decay where distrust has bred throughout the forums and rather than as idle commentors, users take each other very seriously as human beings

Peace my brothers and sisters,
El Sabre
A most excellent point, Sabre. While Skype is most excellent fun, it is the home to LucasForums' behind-the-scenes action, where communication- and therefore manipulation- is possible on a whole new level.

I don't believe more openness from the staff would fix the forums (you guys are doing a most excellent job as it is), but I wonder why there is such a big commotion over the 'Ahto thread' (I assume regarding DI's Imperial Proclamations)? The election was fun, and His Majesty's ensuing reign, I take it, shall be filled with such messages as these. However, I suppose if you're name was not included it would have stung much more than have healed.

I conclude by posting that being generally more accepting and a tad bit nicer would be a great way to start healing.
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:50 PM   #40
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I'm rather new in these seas, and I had no idea members of Lucasforums.com used Skype. I was only recently asked to check it out, and it was no suprise that certain members communicated in such a way. Its is a list similar to the thread of the Who's Who of Lucasforums.com. Skype exists outside of Lucasforums' rules and regulations; thus, it gives moderators and admins a place to talk about forum issues without restraint. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing. Skype's contact list did mirror closely with the Imperial Proclamations, but I don't know if it happend by accident or on purpose.

One controversial aspect of Skype will come from it being an open forum, so non staff members and staff members can discuss how to punish a fellow forumite. Without breaking any of Lucasforums' rules. Its similar to an end run around the bigger bosses. I'm hopping my assumptioins are flawed; however, there is the possibility and opportunity for it to happen.

Kavar's, Kavar's, Kavar's - What to do. What to do? I'm glad that others are finally seeing what I've been saying. Kavar's is a problem. Do we close the forum down? There is a relationship between its existance and the negetivity in all LF forums; however, it doesn't mean that one is causing the other. There are so many variables on the table, and maybe its a combination of a clique, Kavar's existance, and how forumites feel about TOR. We haven't had any good Star Wars news for a few years, and I think turning Knights into a MMO may have helped trigger some anger. Combine all of these problems, and you have a hot pot boiling over.

Lucasforums.com was built by SW game fans for SW game fans. There is a pretty good sized group of staffers and forumites clinging together, but I think this place was developed to be that way. I went back in time through the web archives, and I noticed Lucasforums originaly didn't have a large audience. Maybe its time to shift some rules and habits, so a larger audience can become more involved in a respectable manner. Its a complex issue.

The clique should involve everyone here; however, that is not the current state of the forums. Lucasforums needs to evolve with the audience.

Last edited by Yar-El; 02-19-2009 at 08:06 PM.
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