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Old 03-04-2009, 05:26 PM   #1
GarfieldJL
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Simple overreacting or Liberal Targetting of Free Speech

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504524,00.html

Apparently a Teacher called the cops on a student whom presented a pro-Gun stance as to why teachers and students at the college level should be allowed to carry concealed firearms.
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Old 03-04-2009, 05:44 PM   #2
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Liberal targeting free speech or is it a teacher targeting free speech? If the teacher called 911 without merit then she should be charged like the woman that called 911 because McDonald's were out of Chicken McNuggets.

So yes, this maybe an overreaction by the teacher (depending on the facts) and should be dealt with by local law enforcement. And yes, it is an overreaction by the media for turning possible stupidly by one teacher into a liberal basing platform.
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Old 03-04-2009, 05:46 PM   #3
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Sensationalism:

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Originally Posted by article; emphasis mine

"Critics of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus argue that colleges and universities are dedicated to the free flow of ideas,” she said. “Yet when a student gives a class presentation on a relevant issue in the media, it is acceptable to label the student as a threat? The only threat posed was a threat to the professor’s personal beliefs.”

Duquette said there was no evidence to support that.
And even if it is true, it's not "zOMG the Liberals!" - it's one person.

Read your own article.

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Old 03-04-2009, 08:00 PM   #4
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Look up what many liberals typically want to ban sometime EnderWiggin, you'll find that doing away with the second amendment is towards the top.


If you look at the article, it apparently isn't an isolated incident.

And mimartin, you're comparing apples to oranges, the two cases aren't even remotely similar.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Look up what many liberals typically want to ban sometime EnderWiggin, you'll find that doing away with the second amendment is towards the top.
This teacher is not part of some massive liberal conspiracy to demoralize the country she is acting on her own will. The notion that every liberal-minded individual shares the same agenda and set of ideals is so fallacious to even comprehend.
Quote:
If you look at the article, it apparently isn't an isolated incident.
Perhaps, but it does not provide any evidence that each incident is connected.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:25 PM   #6
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So Joe the Plumber speaks for all conservatives?
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
This teacher is not part of some massive liberal conspiracy to demoralize the country she is acting on her own will. The notion that every liberal-minded individual shares the same agenda and set of ideals is so fallacious to even comprehend.
Doesn't have to be a giant conspiracy, it can just be simple intolerance that is legitimized in how instructors are taught, or there needs to be classes on teaching tolerence when it comes to differences in opinion.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
Perhaps, but it does not provide any evidence that each incident is connected.
Not saying there is, I'm just saying that this isn't just an isolated fluke, I don't think it's a vast conspiracy. I just think it's the usual intolerance to other people's opinions where people are viewed to be evil simply because they don't agree.

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Originally Posted by Kyp Dooran
So Joe the Plumber speaks for all conservatives?
No, he just represents how people are demonized if they make the "anointed one" look bad.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Look up what many liberals typically want to ban sometime EnderWiggin, you'll find that doing away with the second amendment is towards the top.
I'm aware of that, and I don't necessarily disagree with them.

However, the article you provided is not evidence for the "Liberal Targetting [sic] of Free Speech" that you are asserting is occurring.

If you would provide a set of premises that could be proven perhaps then we would be more inclined to agree with your conclusion.

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Old 03-04-2009, 10:53 PM   #9
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Calling the cops on someone saying they are a threat just for a postion they took in a persuasive speech? Looks like a 1st Amendment Violation to me, and btw, the 2nd Amendment is the keystone amendment.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyp Dooran View Post
So Joe the Plumber speaks for all conservatives?
No, that's Rush Limbaugh.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
And mimartin, you're comparing apples to oranges, the two cases aren't even remotely similar.
Two people frivolously calling 911 are not related.
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:10 PM   #11
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No, that's Rush Limbaugh.
No, Rush just happens to be the Conservative voice Obama is targetting.

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Originally Posted by mimartin
Two people frivolously calling 911 are not related.
One called it to try to get someone arrested for their viewpoints, the other just called 911 out of stupidity.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
One called it to try to get someone arrested for their viewpoints, the other just called 911 out of stupidity.
The professor didn't call to get someone arrested for their viewpoints, the professor called because she felt the student's viewpoints meant that he might have a bit of an itchy trigger finger. She's still stupid for thinking he was going to shoot up the school, but it's not like she was deliberately trying to squash political opinions she didn't approve of.



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Old 03-05-2009, 01:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrion View Post
The professor didn't call to get someone arrested for their viewpoints, the professor called because she felt the student's viewpoints meant that he might have a bit of an itchy trigger finger. She's still stupid for thinking he was going to shoot up the school, but it's not like she was deliberately trying to squash political opinions she didn't approve of.
Well the point is still the same, because the student thought that some of the shootings wouldn't have resulted in many fatalities if students had concealed firearms, and said as such. The teacher felt threatened because of her beliefs, that is actually classic subconscious intolerance.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Well the point is still the same, because the student thought that some of the shootings wouldn't have resulted in many fatalities if students had concealed firearms, and said as such. The teacher felt threatened because of her beliefs, that is actually classic subconscious intolerance.
Her intent was ultimately to protect her students, not to get the kid arrested for his opinion. She wasn't "targeting free speech."



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Old 03-05-2009, 02:24 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tyrion View Post
Her intent was ultimately to protect her students, not to get the kid arrested for his opinion. She wasn't "targeting free speech."
You should really look at the comments of those that support her. Many of them feel he should be arrested for espousing his beliefs that concealed carry can be a good thing. Some have even said that They "believe in free speech, except when it comes to guns." That would be restricting free speech. I guess it's ok... that whole boiling the live frog thing. We get more used to little restrictions. Further and further along. But hey that's ok. I mean first we get the USA PATRIOT ACT, which gave the government more power than it should have(Yes, I'm quite aware that Republicans supported it, doesn't mean I'm going to). Now the Democrats intend to restrict the second. You watch it will eventually lead to free speech being limited free speech. Those first two ammendments apparently don't mean much.. guess we can just throw them out... right?


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
You should really look at the comments of those that support her. Many of them feel he should be arrested for espousing his beliefs that concealed carry can be a good thing. Some have even said that They "believe in free speech, except when it comes to guns." That would be restricting free speech. I guess it's ok... that whole boiling the live frog thing. We get more used to little restrictions. Further and further along. But hey that's ok. I mean first we get the USA PATRIOT ACT, which gave the government more power than it should have(Yes, I'm quite aware that Republicans supported it, doesn't mean I'm going to). Now the Democrats intend to restrict the second. You watch it will eventually lead to free speech being limited free speech. Those first two ammendments apparently don't mean much.. guess we can just throw them out... right?
What others feel about this has nothing at all to do with the motivation of the professor. To make it clear, the professor's stated reason for calling the cops was:

Quote:
According to The Recorder, Anderson cited safety as her reason for calling the police.

“It is also my responsibility as a teacher to protect the well-being of our students, and the campus community at all times,” she told The Recorder. “As such, when deemed necessary because of any perceived risks, I seek guidance and consultation from the Chair of my Department, the Dean and any relevant University officials.”
not,

Quote:
According to The Recorder, Anderson cited intense intolerance of opposite views and hatred of the 2nd amendment as her reason for calling the police.

“I just hate gun freaks and I wanted him to be tazered because he loves his guns more than I hate America.”
To clarify, I'm more on the pro-gun(within reason: assault rifles and those faster in firing speeds are not really weapons meant for defense) side. Not because I use them, but both because its a constitutionally protected right and because a lack of legal guns in America doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of guns total. However, it's just annoying that a professor's extremely misguided attempt to protect her students is portrayed as some symbol of the left wing's disgust for free speech.



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Old 03-05-2009, 03:55 AM   #17
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Where the heck did she get that he was a threat. She made it up on her own. He spoke of how better to protect, not how to kill. If you can show me HOW she could POSSIBLY see him as a threat, I might agree. Because he is pro gun? Did he threaten anyone? Did he threaten HER? The only thing he was a threat to was her belief system. I dunno, maybe she suffers from hoplophobia. Do you even know what legal gun owners have to go through in CT? Like a legal gun owner in CT is going to risk losing their right to own a firearm that easily.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:03 AM   #18
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You don't walk into a police station and explain why heroin should be legal to the drug squad.

You don't walk into a children's hospital and present a paper on why pedophilia should be legal.

You don't walk into a WW2 Holocaust survivor meeting present to them why Hitler should have won.

You don't go to an AA meeting and explain to them why Drunk Driving is the best thing since sliced bread.

And you don't walk onto to a school campus, enter a classroom, and then present a powerpoint on why you and others should be able to carry hidden guns on school campus on a topic about school shootings. With all the media and hysteria on school shootings and the tension they leave behind, what the hell did this guy think he was doing?

You need to sit back and look at this from a teacher's perspective: A student she barely knows comes into her class every day and interacts with other students. He then, when called up, presents a powerpoint on why he, yourself, and other students should be allowed to carry guns on a school campus as a defense for school shootings.

That can translate to a number of things. Shoot the shooter before he shoots you? Stop him with your gun? Non-violently keep him down with your gun pointed at him?

She did what she thought was safe, and I believe many teacher's would have done the same. Why?

My History teacher told us at the beginning of my junior year that if we presented anything supporting slavery, nazi's, genocide, or racism in his classroom that he would give us a no questions asked referral. Why? Because his family was jewish and had survived the holocaust.

Is it an infringement on freedom of speech? In definition, yes. It is. I will not disagree with anyone on that. It should be the students right to go in front of the class and tell them that he wished 10 million more jews had been killed.

But there is just some **** you don't say.

You don't walk up to a police officer and ask him if he knows any drug dealers. It is perfectly legal to, as he has no proof you are going to search one out and buy anything, but that wont stop him from pinning you and checking you for narcotics.

Its common sense. Should she have called the police? Should he have been allowed to explain why bringing guns onto campus is OK? It is as much his legal right to do so as it is the guy to ask the officer about drug dealer locations.

This is not an attack on a belief system. This is not an attack by some huge group with an agenda. This is common ****ing sense at work, and he should have had enough to realize that being pro-gun concealment on school campus' during a time still reeling from school shootings, and presenting said argument in a school shooting presentation would get you in trouble with said school.

I would have called him on it at least. I would have told him to do another one. If it was as extreme as she thinks it was, then I may have called the office, counselor, or authorities as well.

He was perfectly in his right to say and believe so. He broke no actual laws. What he did do was something completely lacking common sense. What he did do was break a social law. The police, regardless of your so called freedom of speech, do not take kindly to be asked about drug locations, informed a students wants to carry a gun on campus, or other dumb comments like that.

The fact the police acted on this call at all means they take a comment like this seriously. Are the police always right? No, but it is their job to look for signs and to make sure things do not happen. They took his powerpoint seriously enough to consider asking him a few questions and making sure nothing was out of the ordinary.

Freedom of speech does not exist. There is no such thing as actual freedom, because nothing is free. By law you have the right to yell out in a mall "I have a bomb strapped to my chest!", but that doesn't mean you aren't going get the police called on you.

You have the right to stand up and announce to a classroom that you believe pedophilia should be legal. Does that mean you should? Maybe you aren't a pedophile, and are just being devil's advocate. But do you think for a second you wont get your ass fired and never be allowed to teach again?

You have the right to say that blacks should be lynched, jews burned alive, and women kept in cages on the air because of freedom of speech. That doesn't mean, however, you wont get fired from your anchorman position for doing so.

Freedom of speech will never exist as long as there are social laws in place, which means you must be open for ANYONE saying ANYTHING at ANYTIME and ANYPLACE. There will be no regulations on what teachers can say in a class. There will be no regulations on threats etc on school campus'. Nothing. Every word would have to be acceptable by our civilization for every single person on the planet to hear at anytime.

It means we would be allowed to explain and teach kids about homosexuality whenever, where ever. If you complain, they get to sue you for infringing on their freedom of speech. Beastiality, etc would have to be perfectly acceptable in a classroom because the teacher has the right to say whatever she wants. Isn't not allowing children to watch pornography against freedom of speech? Its censorship after all.

Freedom of speech? I've never met someone who believed in freedom of speech and I doubt that will change soon. It has been limited speech since the day of its creation when africans were also named only part of the worth of a white man.

Again, its common sense. There is **** you don't say, because there are social laws in effect ontop of actual laws. It may be illegal to fire you for expressing your opinion, but that does not mean your boss can't find some legit reason to fire you.

Is this bad? Is this good?

To be honest, I do not have that answer and probably never will.


(If I got some laws wrong in my examples, I apologize. Its 1 in the morning.)
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:39 AM   #19
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No, not the same thing at all TA.

For one thing the topic for research projects was relevant issues in the media.

This was a college level course, not some random location. He didn't have to seek them out. He wasn't discussing a desire to commit illegal acts, but discussing something that he feels should be legal.

Another source

My favorite quote on this
Quote:
“If you can’t talk about the Second Amendment, what happened to the First Amendment?” asked Sara Adler, president of the Riflery and Marksmanship club on campus. “After all, a university campus is a place for the free and open exchange of ideas.”


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:14 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The teacher felt threatened because of her beliefs, that is actually classic subconscious intolerance.
Stop spouting bull****. You have no idea whether or not the teacher "felt threatened because of her beliefs." All you can do is speculate as to the reasoning behind her 911 call, even though you have no evidence besides the one point - that she is 'Liberal'.

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Old 03-05-2009, 07:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Stop spouting bull****. You have no idea whether or not the teacher "felt threatened because of her beliefs." All you can do is speculate as to the reasoning behind her 911 call, even though you have no evidence besides the one point - that she is 'Liberal'.

_EW_
That and the fact that she called the cops over his project.

Though I do think that there is a bit of overreaction, I still feel that this was extremely bad. It's only free speach if I agree with you.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:03 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Stop spouting bull****. You have no idea whether or not the teacher "felt threatened because of her beliefs." All you can do is speculate as to the reasoning behind her 911 call, even though you have no evidence besides the one point - that she is 'Liberal'.
Quite frankly I would suggest you take your own advice. As Tommycat pointed out we can infer that the teacher is a liberal. The fact she called the cops also points out she felt threatened by the fact that the student had a viewpoint that differed with hers.

Furthermore, True_Avery stop distorting the issue, all the kid said was that he believed if students had been allowed to carry concealed firearms the number of fatalities at some of these school shootings would be significantly less. That isn't the same as what you're saying it is, or are you saying people are criminals for owning a firearm or being against gun-control?
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:48 AM   #23
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Quite frankly I would suggest you take your own advice. As Tommycat pointed out we can infer that the teacher is a liberal. The fact she called the cops also points out she felt threatened by the fact that the student had a viewpoint that differed with hers.
How do you know that she was liberal? Just because she felt that there was potential danger (which was totally an overreaction, IMO), how does that show potential liberalness?
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:56 AM   #24
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One called it to try to get someone arrested for their viewpoints, the other just called 911 out of stupidity.
In your bias opinion against liberals they are different. In my opinion both cases point to stupidity and/or overreactions.

However, since I don’t have your extraordinary cognitive ability to know what people thousands of miles motivations are without any real personal information to understand that person, I will hold off judgment.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:32 PM   #25
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I find the irony of this thread being created by the same person who cried foul at every news article about a teacher that was vocally in support of Obama during the election to be quite delightful



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Old 03-05-2009, 02:05 PM   #26
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I find the irony of this thread being created by the same person who cried foul at every news article about a teacher that was vocally in support of Obama during the election to be quite delightful
They were doing it in the classroom, I don't care if they support someone outside the classroom, but if they are actively supporting Obama in the classroom, that is unethical because they are in a position of authority, I would say the same thing if they had been actively supporting McCain in the classroom.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:25 PM   #27
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They were doing it in the classroom.
So you're in favor of suspending free speech in the classroom when it is appropriate? For example, when the teacher feels that the safety of herself and others might possibly be at risk?



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Old 03-05-2009, 03:42 PM   #28
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So you're in favor of suspending free speech in the classroom when it is appropriate? For example, when the teacher feels that the safety of herself and others might possibly be at risk?
The idea that she felt others were at risk is a load of garbage, unless she thinks anyone whom owns a gun as a sadistic killer.


A teacher is supposed to teach students how to think for themselves not indoctrinate students to support a particular political party or candidate. That's abusing their position of authority, it's the same reason that if a teacher has inappropriate relations with a student, it should be in my view be considered statutory rape.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:08 PM   #29
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How does calling the police over a perceived legitimate safety concern = inhibiting free speech?

What would have happen had he actually been a risk to other students safety and she not had done everything possible to prevent it? Personally I believe it is better to error on the side of caution when it comes to people life, but that may just be my bleeding heart coming out again.

How do you know for a fact that she did not perceive his statement as a threat? Are you a mind reader or are you the teacher in question? Because those are the only logical reasons (I can think of) you could assert you claim as a fact. Have you ever considered giving someone the benefit of the doubt?

How was the student’s right to free speech prohibited? He had to answer some questions to the police for security reasons, but that is a fact of the dangers of the world we live in and not a free speech issue.

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Old 03-05-2009, 05:29 PM   #30
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Furthermore, True_Avery stop distorting the issue, all the kid said was that he believed if students had been allowed to carry concealed firearms the number of fatalities at some of these school shootings would be significantly less. That isn't the same as what you're saying it is, or are you saying people are criminals for owning a firearm or being against gun-control?
I'm not distorting anything.

He was an idiot to bring a pro-gun concealment project to school because of the tension that subject brings along. Its common sense that if you advocate guns on a school campus that the staff is going to look twice.

He was allowed to present, but the police looked into it to make sure it wasn't an issue.

This has nothing to do if he -was- going to do anything, but a precaution. The same precaution that would be taken if he had, say, brought in a pro pedophilia powerpoint into class.

Social laws. You have no freedom of speech, so stop trying to advocate it especially when you are in support of keeping teacher's mouth's shut about certain issues.

Quote:
They were doing it in the classroom, I don't care if they support someone outside the classroom, but if they are actively supporting Obama in the classroom, that is unethical because they are in a position of authority, I would say the same thing if they had been actively supporting McCain in the classroom.
So, you are a supporter of limited free speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
This was a college level course, not some random location. He didn't have to seek them out. He wasn't discussing a desire to commit illegal acts, but discussing something that he feels should be legal.
The location, situation, and people are all very relevant to this.

He was at a school, presenting a project on pro-gun concealment in schools, on a project about school shootings.

It guarantees nothing, but the staff and police felt it was relevant enough to ask him a few question.

Why? Because, again, there is some **** you don't say. It should be common sense that advocating guns for students and teachers on a project about school shootings would catch someone's eye.

Dos it make it right? Again, I do not know.

What I can say is that he is lucky it was a college class, because I'd take a wild guess that a high school or middle school would be much less tolerant of his project.

Last edited by True_Avery; 03-05-2009 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:33 PM   #31
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Quite frankly I would suggest you take your own advice.
Um, I already do. Nothing I said was blatantly pulled out of thin air. Thanks anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfy
As Tommycat pointed out we can infer that the teacher is a liberal.
I already afforded you this point, but thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfy
The fact she called the cops also points out she felt threatened by the fact that the student had a viewpoint that differed with hers.
It does nothing of the sort. Just because she called the cops does not indicate in the slightest that she felt threatened by his viewpoint. And, unless you are this female teacher, I'd ask that you stop putting words in her mouth since you obviously do not know what she was thinking.

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Old 03-05-2009, 09:26 PM   #32
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How does calling the police over a perceived legitimate safety concern = inhibiting free speech?
Agreed. There have been some similar "precautionary" phone calls from teachers who overreacted here too in Canada (like about a kid making a drawing of a video game scene with guns) but they were done in good faith and had nothing to do with these teachers trying to impose their viewpoints but rather because they were having safety concerns...some people, whether liberal or conservative, tend to freak out easily (and they were also likely concerned about having the finger - and the lawsuits - pointed at them for not acting if something would have happened). I don't see how this is a liberal vs conservative issue. Seems more like a simple lack of judgment by a few individuals (but then, the article does not really mentions how the subject was presented by the student either).
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darth333 View Post
Agreed. There have been some similar "precautionary" phone calls from teachers who overreacted here too in Canada (like about a kid making a drawing of a video game scene with guns) but they were done in good faith and had nothing to do with these teachers trying to impose their viewpoints but rather because they were having safety concerns...some people, whether liberal or conservative, tend to freak out easily (and they were also likely concerned about having the finger - and the lawsuits - pointed at them for not acting if something would have happened).
However, in this case it appears even the police aren't even considering there to be a threat and the school has agreed it was overreacting on the teacher's part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
I don't see how this is a liberal vs conservative issue. Seems more like a simple lack of judgment by a few individuals (but then, the article does not really mentions how the subject was presented by the student either).
It was a persuasive speech or paper arguing that if the students in the Virginia Tech incident had been carrying concealed firearms the Virginia Tech shooter wouldn't have been able to kill as many people because the shooter would have been filled full of lead. The student was arguing that students and teachers whom could pass the requirements for a conceal and carry permit be allowed to carry firearms on campus. That's it, he was not threatening anyone.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Um, I already do. Nothing I said was blatantly pulled out of thin air.
In a pig's eye!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
It does nothing of the sort. Just because she called the cops does not indicate in the slightest that she felt threatened by his viewpoint. And, unless you are this female teacher, I'd ask that you stop putting words in her mouth since you obviously do not know what she was thinking.
Fact is she fits the classic left-wing ideologue profile where they view anyone that disagrees with them as evil and should be silenced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
He was an idiot to bring a pro-gun concealment project to school because of the tension that subject brings along. Its common sense that if you advocate guns on a school campus that the staff is going to look twice.
Depends, at the university I go to, quite a few instructors actually own firearms. The teacher has gotten in trouble in this case already and there sounds like there will be a lawsuit, further it sounds highly likely that the student has an ironclad case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
He was allowed to present, but the police looked into it to make sure it wasn't an issue.

This has nothing to do if he -was- going to do anything, but a precaution.
Explains why there is such an uproar and the fact the teacher is in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
The same precaution that would be taken if he had, say, brought in a pro pedophilia powerpoint into class.
So you're saying that someone that advocates something legitimate that some states allow guns to be carried in other areas, is the same as something that is absolutely immoral. It wouldn't surprise me if you would want to do away with the Keystone amendment and consider everyone that owns a gun to be a criminal based on your comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Social laws. You have no freedom of speech, so stop trying to advocate it especially when you are in support of keeping teacher's mouth's shut about certain issues.
I'm against them using their position to indoctrinate students into a particular political party. That's a difference from teaching them to think for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
So, you are a supporter of limited free speech?
No, I'm against the Nazi style of indoctrination. Teachers are in a position of authority, and indoctrinating students into a political party using their position in the classroom is abusing their position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
The location, situation, and people are all very relevant to this.

He was at a school, presenting a project on pro-gun concealment in schools, on a project about school shootings.

It guarantees nothing, but the staff and police felt it was relevant enough to ask him a few question.
No, the teacher called 911 without any input from school officials and the cops showed up at the student's house, they then discovered the teacher's call had no basis, and the school thought it was out of line and overreacting on her part. Don't try to misrepresent the facts of the case, the teacher misrepresented the situation to the police.

This is being considered an assault on free-speech, he never made any threats to anyone according to the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
What I can say is that he is lucky it was a college class, because I'd take a wild guess that a high school or middle school would be much less tolerant of his project.
Actually it sounds like the teacher is in trouble because it looks like she's gonna end up in court and potentially the university too for violating the first amendment.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:01 AM   #34
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However, in this case it appears even the police aren't even considering there to be a threat and the school has agreed it was overreacting on the teacher's part.
Seems like we are saying the same thing here: an individual overreacting. Personal fears aren't objective and vary with each individual. The teacher might have had concerns due to her personal perception of the event but it was later found that it was unjustified and that she misjudged the situation. Doesn't mean that the teacher was attempting to limit the student's freedom of speech or to cause harm to the student. The way this incident has been turned into a liberal targeting free speech issue by some media seems like overreaction as well to me There is nothing in the article that really supports that the teacher is an intolerant person...that her personal fears were not justified yes but I wouldn't read much more into it.

Quote:
It was a persuasive speech or paper arguing that if the students in the Virginia Tech incident had been carrying concealed firearms the Virginia Tech shooter wouldn't have been able to kill as many people because the shooter would have been filled full of lead. The student was arguing that students and teachers whom could pass the requirements for a conceal and carry permit be allowed to carry firearms on campus. That's it, he was not threatening anyone.
Yes, we have the subject but not the manner in which it was presented....perhaps there was something in the way the student made his presentation that made the teacher react in such a way, wrongly or not.

Quote:
classic left-wing ideologue profile where they view anyone that disagrees with them as evil and should be silenced
Huh? Is that the "classic left-wing ideologue profile" as presented by the "classic right-wing ideologue profile"?
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
The location, situation, and people are all very relevant to this.

He was at a school, presenting a project on pro-gun concealment in schools, on a project about school shootings.

It guarantees nothing, but the staff and police felt it was relevant enough to ask him a few question.

Why? Because, again, there is some **** you don't say. It should be common sense that advocating guns for students and teachers on a project about school shootings would catch someone's eye.

Dos it make it right? Again, I do not know.

What I can say is that he is lucky it was a college class, because I'd take a wild guess that a high school or middle school would be much less tolerant of his project.
Location: University
Course: Communication 140
Project: RELEVANT ISSUES in the media

That makes recent news a prime target. Unless you want him to be like CNN covering octomom and the toddler killin moms, instead he chose to take something with less fluff. Relevant issues would be issues that affect them. That means that he chose a proper subject. In fact he took a position that several of the people who went to VA Tech also advocated in their interviews to the media.

Sorry, but even my lil ole high school in Texas was reasonable enough to allow charged issues. My old drummer WENT TO COLUMBINE and did a report on how the incident could have been made less severe if teachers and students were allowed to carry legally. He didn't get the police called on him.


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Old 03-06-2009, 03:31 AM   #36
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Depends, at the university I go to, quite a few instructors actually own firearms. The teacher has gotten in trouble in this case already and there sounds like there will be a lawsuit, further it sounds highly likely that the student has an ironclad case.
I'm not against firearm ownership. I just think that having guns available to both teachers and all students in a university or high school could lead to accidental shootings, spur of the moments shootings, etc. While a single shooting can be pretty bad, my personal belief is that having more on campus, especially hidden, would just cause more trouble.

When some kids get into a fist fight during or after school, I think it would be preferable for them to not have a gun in that particularly heated moment. Just a thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Explains why there is such an uproar and the fact the teacher is in trouble.
I guess so. Being questioned doesn't seem that bad, and if the court determines the teacher was unjustified in her concern and call then that'll settle the matter.

I think the teacher made an OK call, but not the best one. I wont disagree that it was an overreaction to immediately go to the police, but I would have also had something to say if nothing had been done.

Police tend to take stuff like this seriously, as does the law. If she screwed up, let it be said out of the judge's mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
So you're saying that someone that advocates something legitimate that some states allow guns to be carried in other areas, is the same as something that is absolutely immoral. It wouldn't surprise me if you would want to do away with the Keystone amendment and consider everyone that owns a gun to be a criminal based on your comments.
Nah, I'm saying that it isn't surprising that a teacher would take something like this seriously, as would an entire school perhaps. In her position, I would have asked him to go to the councelor or something to discuss the project, as advocating weapon handling and possible use in a situation may have some underlining meaning behind it.

The only gun control I really advocate is control over concealed weapons, and control over heavy weaponry. I border at assault rifles. While I would like to own an assault rifle, I also feel in some ways I and other's shouldn't have easy access to buying them. Other than that, feel free to own as many gun as you'd like.

The reason I bring something like pedophilia into this isn't for the legal immorality, but the Social Law that someone like that supports. You and others have the right to talk, advocate, etc pedophilia but the social implications of doing such are heavy in many parts of the world. It can also be argued that a "I think everyone on campus should have a gun so we can shoot them before they shoot us" attitude could lean on the side of potential danger or immorality.

Heavy handed comments that don't so much have a basis in US law, but could potentially get your teacher to call the counselor on you or, in an extreme case, call the police.

Doesn't mean it shouldn't be said, but that said there is a time and a place for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
I'm against them using their position to indoctrinate students into a particular political party. That's a difference from teaching them to think for themselves.
Agreed, but limiting the ability of someone to express their opinion is essentially limiting freedom of speech.

The same, effectively, could be said about religion. Do parents push their religious or political agenda on their children at all? If they do, aren't they just like the teacher "indoctrinating" his/her students?

Thinking for yourself is a hard thing to place, because don't we all basically think off of what happens around us? Don't events in our everyday life indoctrinate us in some way?

Then the question arises: Are you speaking of indoctrination, or are you simply playing down the teacher's ability to say such things because you would prefer them to be influenced to your side, away from the liberal mindset?

I'm not calling you on anything, just trying to figure out the line of logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
No, I'm against the Nazi style of indoctrination. Teachers are in a position of authority, and indoctrinating students into a political party using their position in the classroom is abusing their position.
Yes, but the same thing could be said about parents, TV, politicians, ALL media, political parties, debate forums, you, me, etc.

There are plenty of people in seats of authority trying to get you to believe what they want you to believe. MSNBC wants you to hate Fox News. Fox News wants you to hate the liberals. Pepsi wants you to buy more Pepsi. Parents want their kids to share their religion.

Its something you can't avoid as long as there is someone in some perceived level of authority above you.

So, by quelling the voices of said authority, you are still effectively trying to limit their freedom of speech. Their ability to say what they want, when they want, how they want. While perceived authority may have influence, those that use that to their advantage or disadvantage are still American Citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
No, the teacher called 911 without any input from school officials and the cops showed up at the student's house, they then discovered the teacher's call had no basis, and the school thought it was out of line and overreacting on her part. Don't try to misrepresent the facts of the case, the teacher misrepresented the situation to the police.

This is being considered an assault on free-speech, he never made any threats to anyone according to the article.
Personally, I have better things to do that work off of assumptions that some journalists make.

The police found it suspicious enough to check it our, but if she did in fact blow it our of proportion then the fault is on her shoulders. I'll reserve judgment till the court decides whether she over reacted or not. I'm simply presenting why I think she and others may have reacted in such a way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL
Actually it sounds like the teacher is in trouble because it looks like she's gonna end up in court and potentially the university too for violating the first amendment.
And I'll await the courts decision on whether she did or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
That makes recent news a prime target. Unless you want him to be like CNN covering octomom and the toddler killin moms, instead he chose to take something with less fluff. Relevant issues would be issues that affect them. That means that he chose a proper subject. In fact he took a position that several of the people who went to VA Tech also advocated in their interviews to the media.
I'm sure many people agreed with him. Charged issues should not be kept in the dark, and neither should this one.

But, again, a time and place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Sorry, but even my lil ole high school in Texas was reasonable enough to allow charged issues. My old drummer WENT TO COLUMBINE and did a report on how the incident could have been made less severe if teachers and students were allowed to carry legally. He didn't get the police called on him.
Not saying he shouldn't have the right to. I doubt he got the best looks when possibly telling columbine teachers that if they and others had carried guns all would have been fine. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

That is about as far as my argument can go. I can't reasonably explain a phenomenon that is unreasonable, but can simply state that it doesn't take a genius to realize that talking about guns on a school campus might call some eyes. He just happened to pick the unlucky card in this situation, and got someone to overreact on him.
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:52 AM   #37
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In a pig's eye!
I'm trying really hard not to flame you, perhaps you should do the same.


Quote:
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Fact is she fits the classic left-wing ideologue profile where they view anyone that disagrees with them as evil and should be silenced.
Just because you call it a fact doesn't make it one. She "fits [a] classic profile"? Bull****.

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Old 03-06-2009, 08:37 AM   #38
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Actually I think everyone here agrees that the professor's response was overreacting. I think the real question should be whether this overreaction is a symptom of a larger problem as it is not strictly an isolated case. It seems that certain points of view are deemed acceptable by some in academia to silence. It also seems that some people have an irrational fear of legal firearm owners(which I think is a more likely root cause). Perhaps its hoplophobia. a fear of weapons.


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Old 03-06-2009, 02:45 PM   #39
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Actually I think everyone here agrees that the professor's response was overreacting.
Yes, with the benefit of hindsight I can agree with that. It should be pointed out that the professor involved did not have the benefit of looking at the situation after the fact, before making her decision. What is going to happen next time someone perceives a potentially dangerous situation after this professor has been smeared for trying to protect the students of the university by the bias right-wing media? Perhaps next time it will be a legitimate threat that will be overlooked because someone is worried about being labeled "un-American" by FoxNews.

I still have not been shown how this student’s rights were repressed. If someone could answer that, I would be eternally grateful. I’ll give you my follow up question in advance just to make your endeavor easier. How is this different than my name being on the watch list? In the name of security I’m considered guilty until proven innocent. In the name of security this student was asked a few questions by the police.
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I think the real question should be whether this overreaction is a symptom of a larger problem as it is not strictly an isolated case.
We are told to be vigilant, but we are only human and people make mistakes. What if she had not reported it to the proper authorities and the student showed up a few days later and shot up the school, would that still be considered violating the student’s right?

She called the police because she perceived there to be a potential problem. Given the recent history of school shootings I believe she error on side of caution. She made a mistake, but I rather she make the mistake she did than for her not to report it and then the school be shot up a few days later by the same student and then listen to her talk about the warning signs that were there with the media. So the kid had to answer a few question, big deal!
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It seems that certain points of view are deemed acceptable by some in academia to silence. It also seems that some people have an irrational fear of legal firearm owners(which I think is a more likely root cause). Perhaps its hoplophobia. a fear of weapons.
Irrational fear?

The University of Texas - 1966 17 Dead
California State University -1976 7 Dead
Cleveland Elementary School (San Diego, CA) -1979 2 Dead
Parkway South Junior High School – 1983 2 Dead
Cleveland Elementary School (Stockton, CA) -1989 6 Dead
University of Iowa - 1991 6 Dead
Lindhurst High School -1992 4 Dead
Simon’s Rock College of Bard – 1991 2 Dead
Richland High School – 1995 2 Dead
Frontier Junior High – 1996 3 Dead
Pennsylvania State University – 1996 1 Dead
Bethel High School – 1997 2 Dead
Pearl High School – 1997 3 Dead
Heath High School – 1997 3 Dead
Westside Middle School – 1998 5 Dead
Parker Middle School – 1998 1 Dead
Thurston High School – 1998 4 Dead
Columbine High School – 1999 15 Dead
Buell Elementary School – 2000 1 Dead
Santana High School – 2001 2 Dead
Appalachian School of Law – 2002 3 Dead
Red Lion Area Junior High -2004 2 Dead
Case Western Reserve University – 2003 1 Dead
Rocori High School -2003 2 Dead
Fairleign Dickinson University -2004 2 Dead
Red Lake High School – 2005 7 Dead
Campbell County High School – 2005 1 Dead
Essex Elementary School – 2006 2 Dead
Platte Canyon High School – 2006 2 Dead
Weston High School – 2006 1 Dead
Amish School – 2006 6 Dead
Virginia Tech – 2007 33 Dead
Delaware State University – 2007 1 Dead
Success Tech Academy – 2007 1 Dead
Louisiana Technical College – 2008 3 Dead
E.O Green School – 2008 1 Dead
Northern Illinois University – 2008 6 Dead
Central High School – 2008 1 Dead
University of Central Arkansas – 2008 – 2 Dead


Yea, completely irrational.

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Old 03-06-2009, 05:20 PM   #40
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@mimartin:

And that list isn't even close to comprehensive - one of the high schools in my area had a school shooting sometime around 1998.

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