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Old 03-06-2009, 04:24 PM   #41
GarfieldJL
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I'm trying really hard not to flame you, perhaps you should do the same.
Hasn't stopped you or others from flaming me before...



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Just because you call it a fact doesn't make it one. She "fits [a] classic profile"? Bull****.
Do you know the last President whom apparently used the IRS to try to dig up stuff about potential political rivals or people that if something public got out would be a real embarassment and had the IRS out to discredit them.

I've got a hint, it wasn't President Bush.

@ mimartin

In this case the reason she felt threatened argument doesn't fly because of the class this was presented in, as Tommycat pointed out. The class had to do with issues in the media.

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
And that list isn't even close to comprehensive - one of the high schools in my area had a school shooting sometime around 1998.
And how many have had stabbings, beatings, etc. you generally don't hear about those though.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:21 PM   #42
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@ mimartin

In this case the reason she felt threatened argument doesn't fly because of the class this was presented in, as Tommycat pointed out. The class had to do with issues in the media.
Just because someone pointed it out does not mean that logic is not flawed.

Just because the classes is about that subject does not mean the student is incapable of murder.

Personally I would not believe a former United States Marine would be capable of shooting a pregnant woman through the abdomen. Even so, Charles Joseph Whitman did just that on August 1, 1966 when he murdered Claire Wilson’s unborn child at the University of Texas.

The logic is flawed, nobody can know if she felt it was a ligament threat or not. EXCEPT FOR HER. FoxNews or anyone else saying they know what she was thinking or her motivation simply is not true unless she told them.

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And how many have had stabbings, beatings, etc. you generally don't hear about those though.
I’m sure there are, but that has nothing to do with my reply to Tommycat’s post about this being an irrational fear of legal firearm owners.

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And that list isn't even close to comprehensive - one of the high schools in my area had a school shooting sometime around 1998.
I’m sure it isn’t, I only included shootings that involved death and did not expect to find as many as I did. If I left out any, I apologized if it seems I did not give everyone murdered their proper respect. I also only tried to include shooting that involved the student/former student being the shooter.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:37 PM   #43
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Iím sure it isnít, I only included shootings that involved death and did not expect to find as many as I did. If I left out any, I apologized if it seems I did not give everyone murdered their proper respect. I also only tried to include shooting that involved the student/former student being the shooter.
Oh, that's fine... I know the kid died but I don't think it was ever on the national news or anything, so I didn't expect to see it.

I was just pointing out that there was even more evidence backing your point.

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Old 03-07-2009, 12:20 AM   #44
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No it doesn't back your point at all, because unlike those cases this kid didn't make any threats, and as far as your accusation of stereotyping the teacher and making up the leftwing's habit of blatent intolerance, we see regular examples of blatent intolerance all the time, not from Conservatives, but from Liberals. And I can name quite a few instances that I've seen just in the last few weeks.

[Off-topic, red-herring deleted. Please stay on the topic]

Last edited by SkinWalker; 03-08-2009 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Off-topic content
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:13 AM   #45
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Thanks for completely ignoring the point and bringing up an entirely unrelated topic.

I'd like you to give me proof showing why the teacher's actions are "liberal", and why your stereotyping is factually correct and not out of personal bias.

Otherwise, you are the intolerant one here.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:15 PM   #46
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Thanks for completely ignoring the point and bringing up an entirely unrelated topic.
Actually it wasn't unrelated, did you want examples from this web board on in the world at large.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
I'd like you to give me proof showing why the teacher's actions are "liberal", and why your stereotyping is factually correct and not out of personal bias.
Conservatives are generally not anti-gun nor are they usually anti-free speech (barring incidents like blatently advertising troop movements), those are both left-wing positions.

If Bush was so anti-free speech like you claimed and out to be a dictator, why did he voluntarily give up power.

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Otherwise, you are the intolerant one here.
No, I've just finally had enough and am calling people out on it.
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Old 03-08-2009, 07:02 PM   #47
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Actually it wasn't unrelated, did you want examples from this web board on in the world at large.
Don't mind.
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Conservatives are generally not anti-gun
This doesn't gun rights, it involves the security of a child.
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nor are they usually anti-free speech (barring incidents like blatently advertising troop movements), those are both left-wing positions.


I suppose you've never heard of McCarthy. Oh, and your bias is showing.
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If Bush was so anti-free speech like you claimed and out to be a dictator, why did he voluntarily give up power.
Nah, that was Nixon, and even he knew that the people wouldn't like him to stay around.
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No, I've just finally had enough and am calling people out on it.
So it's okay to completely intolerant and ignorant to "justify" what you perceive as the truth?
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Old 03-08-2009, 07:11 PM   #48
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Conservatives are generally not anti-gun
Neither are a lot of liberals. I own guns and I have a counseled handgun licenses. I was a member of the NRA until they decided personal responsibility had nothing to do with gun ownership.

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nor are they usually anti-free speech (barring incidents like blatently advertising troop movements), those are both left-wing positions.
two words - DIXIE CHICKS.

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No, I've just finally had enough and am calling people out on it.
In the words of the Dixie Chicks "Your Not Ready to Make Nice?"

I’ll spell out my point with the shooting incidents in school since you clearly did not understand it because it is a valued point.

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It seems that certain points of view are deemed acceptable by some in academia to silence. It also seems that some people have an irrational fear of legal firearm owners(which I think is a more likely root cause). Perhaps its hoplophobia. a fear of weapons.
Tommycat stated this could have to do with an irrational fear of legal firearm owners. I replied in an attempt to show that it was not irrational to have a fear of firearms on campus.
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Old 03-08-2009, 07:50 PM   #49
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Don't mind.
Well the typical flaming or flamebaiting directed towards myself or other conservatives here, claiming that we don't know what we're talking about or other laughable excuses.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
This doesn't gun rights, it involves the security of a child.
Your statement would only be true if the student had made any threats towards the teacher or other students, which the student did not. The topic was relevent to the course, the only thing the student did was take a viewpoint that the teacher didn't like.

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I suppose you've never heard of McCarthy.
I have heard of him, and I think he went off the deep end on paranoia. Some of the stuff he was talking about was legitimate but he went way overboard in the extreme.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
Oh, and your bias is showing.
No, I just think of McCarthy as a someone with a bad case of paranoia.

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
Nah, that was Nixon, and even he knew that the people wouldn't like him to stay around.
Why are you bringing up Nixon?

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Originally Posted by PastramiX
So it's okay to completely intolerant and ignorant to "justify" what you perceive as the truth?
Quit trying to pin stuff back on me, generally the flaming and flamebaiting comes from your side, not from me.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:23 PM   #50
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Simple overreacting. That's my opinion. Yes, it is biased because I am a Liberal and I have no "agenda" of targeting free speech.




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Old 03-09-2009, 06:25 PM   #51
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Simple overreacting. That's my opinion. Yes, it is biased because I am a Liberal and I have no "agenda" of targeting free speech.
Can you elaborate plz, I'd like to understand your reasoning on that.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:00 PM   #52
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I'm not sure how to elaborate on it without repeating what other members have said.

Like I said, my opinion is biased because I am a Liberal and have not been targeting free speech. Personally I think his project was just plain stupid. How in the hell would having students carrying concealed guns help anything in anyway? And like Avery said "There is **** you don't say"

I could kinda understand if the concealed weapons was for teachers, but still a bit iffy.

If it was me, even though I strongly disagree with the student's opinion, I would not call the police on him. I would probably call a higher authority in the room to deal with it though. I'd still try and let him have his say.

So, therefore, I believe this was just an overreaction.




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Old 03-09-2009, 11:20 PM   #53
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I'm not sure how to elaborate on it without repeating what other members have said.
Try your best though.

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Like I said, my opinion is biased because I am a Liberal and have not been targeting free speech. Personally I think his project was just plain stupid. How in the hell would having students carrying concealed guns help anything in anyway? And like Avery said "There is **** you don't say"
Problem with that argument is the nature of the class, it concerned topics in the media, he just chose the opposite stance that anti-gun activists would take. In many schools and even high schools in the mid west there wouldn't have been an issue.

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I could kinda understand if the concealed weapons was for teachers, but still a bit iffy.
First they need to get a conceal and carry permit, second what about people in ROTC, they work with firearms. Just make the standards for obtaining a permit rather stringent.

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Originally Posted by Vikinor
If it was me, even though I strongly disagree with the student's opinion, I would not call the police on him. I would probably call a higher authority in the room to deal with it though. I'd still try and let him have his say.
However the student did not threaten anyone, he just presented his viewpoint on the issue which was relevant to the nature of the class. It was furthermore a legitimate topic. So while discussing it with a higher authority may have been advisable, if the higher authority had acted in the manner the teacher had, that authority would be the one in trouble for overreacting.

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So, therefore, I believe this was just an overreaction.
It was an interesting analysis, one that I don't agree with you on, but respect your opinion.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:27 AM   #54
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Why can't this just be an overreaction from a paranoid teacher?

Why do you have to turn this into a "liberal agenda" "everyone in the world is against me" deal? This entire thread seems less like an opportunity to point out a bad teacher, and more of another propaganda attempt.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:24 AM   #55
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Why can't this just be an overreaction from a paranoid teacher?

Why do you have to turn this into a "liberal agenda" "everyone in the world is against me" deal? This entire thread seems less like an opportunity to point out a bad teacher, and more of another propaganda attempt.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-...loving-racists


Yeah calling people racists for voting for John McCain...


There is a pattern in acadamia, and the pattern looks to me like there is more than just a simple overreaction by a teacher.

The University of California is also a good example.
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:38 PM   #56
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Yeah calling people racists for voting for John McCain...
You example is funny because Newsbusters loves to throw around "marxist" and "socialist"

McCain voters got called racists, and Obama voters got called communist/socialists.

People call each other names. Grow up.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:15 PM   #57
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You example is funny because Newsbusters loves to throw around "marxist" and "socialist"

McCain voters got called racists, and Obama voters got called communist/socialists.

People call each other names. Grow up.
You do realize Obama was a member of the New Socialist Party... And if I recall it was generally Obama that was being called a communist/socialist and people can back up that statement rather easily with his "income redistribution" comments.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:16 PM   #58
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You do realize Obama was a member of the New Socialist Party... And if I recall it was generally Obama that was being called a communist/socialist and people can back up that statement rather easily with his "income redistribution" comments.
Fallacy: that doesn't mean his voters are socialists/marxists

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Old 03-10-2009, 08:19 PM   #59
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Just out of curiosity, what is so bad about Socialism? I'm an open supporter of it. I wouldn't support that the U.S. become a Socialist country, but many Americans hear Socialism and then close the door. Socialism isn't evil or anything.




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Old 03-10-2009, 08:24 PM   #60
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Just out of curiosity, what is so bad about Socialism? I'm an open supporter of it. I wouldn't support that the U.S. become a Socialist country, but many Americans hear Socialism and then close the door. Socialism isn't evil or anything.
It's one of those things. Americans in general are more concerned with profits than other humans.

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Old 03-10-2009, 08:24 PM   #61
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Just out of curiosity, what is so bad about Socialism? I'm an open supporter of it. I wouldn't support that the U.S. become a Socialist country, but many Americans hear Socialism and then close the door. Socialism isn't evil or anything.
Well here's the problem Socialism on paper looks really good but in practice it fails miserably and the level at which we're looking at socialism, odds are it will give way to a dictatorship.

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Fallacy: that doesn't mean his voters are socialists/marxists
Actually you can say that most of the socialist and marxists that voted, voted for Obama. Though I don't recall people calling the people that voted for Obama that.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:26 PM   #62
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I think you are confusing Socialism with Communism. I may be wrong though.

It's a common mistake I have noticed many people make.




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Old 03-10-2009, 08:26 PM   #63
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Well here's the problem Socialism on paper looks really good but in practice it fails miserably and the level at which we're looking at socialism, odds are it will give way to a dictatorship.
Sensationalism, for the most part.

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Actually you can say that most of the socialist and marxists that voted, voted for Obama. Though I don't recall people calling the people that voted for Obama that.
Yes, but most of the people who voted for Obama were not socialists.

Apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples.
Thus, fallacious. Relates to statistical generalization: http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...ed-sample.html

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Old 03-10-2009, 08:30 PM   #64
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Well here's the problem Socialism on paper looks really good but in practice it fails miserably and the level at which we're looking at socialism, odds are it will give way to a dictatorship.
You are describing communism, particularly Stalinism. Socialism is not communism; Sadly, it is a myth that has survived for over a century in America. Sweden, for example, is socialistic in several ways (and what I mean by that, is, the American definition of socialism), and has an astronomical GDP and standard of living.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:31 PM   #65
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Sweden, for example, is socialistic in several ways, and has an astronomical GDP and standard of living.
AND THE STOFFE! >:|

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Old 03-10-2009, 08:33 PM   #66
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AND THE STOFFE! >:|
Oh yes, another invaluable export.

Oh, and Ikea.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:12 PM   #67
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I think you are confusing Socialism with Communism. I may be wrong though.

It's a common mistake I have noticed many people make.
Socialism leads to communism, because Communism is where they force Socialism on people.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:14 PM   #68
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I don't know what to say...I'm trying to respect your opinion though.

I'll just say that I strongly disagree.




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Old 03-10-2009, 09:24 PM   #69
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Socialism leads to communism, because Communism is where they force Socialism on people.
No, no, no, no, no, no!

You need to do some research. In fact, Communism and Socialism are not as closely linked as you seem to think - at all.

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Old 03-10-2009, 09:29 PM   #70
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You need to do some research. In fact, Communism and Socialism are not as closely linked as you seem to think - at all.
Actually they are, look at Lenin, he was a socialist.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:20 PM   #71
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Actually they are, look at Lenin, he was a socialist.
And why should looking at Lenin, or Stalin for that matter, tell us anything about what Communism or Socialism actually are?
There's a reason we distinguish between "Real Socialism", "Socialism" and "Communism".
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:22 PM   #72
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And why should looking at Lenin, or Stalin for that matter, tell us anything about what Communism or Socialism actually are?
There's a reason we distinguish between "Real Socialism", "Socialism" and "Communism".
The utopia thing doesn't work in practice, only on paper.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:33 PM   #73
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The utopia thing doesn't work in practice, only on paper.
What are you referring to?
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:14 AM   #74
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It would seem that someone is ignorant about what Marxism is and what he had to say about social progress, not to mention why socialism is neither Marxism or Communism.


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Old 03-11-2009, 12:16 AM   #75
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The utopia thing doesn't work in practice, only on paper.


Eh.... it only works on paper under the assumption that no *******s are allowed in!


In all seriousness, we've never seen a truly socialist state according to Karl Marx's principles, we only know the modern day incarnations and the ultimate failure of the Soviet Union. A truly Marxist state would be the proletariat of an entire species overthrowing the bourgeoisie simultaneously.

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Old 03-11-2009, 04:46 AM   #76
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OK, back on topic. PLEASE?

At any rate. I think simple overreacting is the case here. Though I am inclined to agree a little further that there are people who want the 2nd amendment more chained down if not completely excised--and that a good number of those are on the liberal side.
I will say there is at least one republican I know of who has an anti guns stance. So this issue isn't necessarily democrat/republican.

Give whatever arguments you will against guns; you are entitled to your opinions. Whoever said, "It's only a mental security toy for fat and stupid homeowners worried about petty theft", uhh, no. Go walk aimlessly around alone in racially hostile territory towards whatever your primary appearnace if you think it's all disneyland out there. HAH. See you in hell. Good luck fighting off that mountain lion in the wilderness when it weighs the same as you do and can carry a carcass, what, twice its weight? And it can move faster than you ever could on your best day? Not to mention the 5" flying razor blades it has for fingernails that could **** you up? Oh yah, you're really gonna have a fighting chance against a giant hungry and territorial wild cat with pebbles and sticks in modern society.

Generally, I do not think totally outlawing them is going to stop the cartels and gangs from getting hold of them. And if the civilian military (cops) don't have them when the criminals DO...well, you do the math. (Maybe that is what some hope for?)

There is a legitimate need for them. I'm no expert on the criminal mind, but if there is anything I have learned about muggers and rapists, or even hoodlums in general, it is that their predatory nature is a cowardly one. They don't want a real fight, they want easy pickin's. As little fight or danger as possible to dominate their victims. They might think twice about breaking into a home and robbing or raping someone if they believe there is some possibility they might actually get killed.

Personally I wish swords were allowed by the second amendment as a defensive weapon. But, hey, if a bokken with a little stealth can knock a gun out of an intruder's hand and stun them so I can land 8 other blows in less than a second (going Juyo on their ass)...their gun is away and the jerk is down. True a bat could do almost the same--but an oak sword replica moves so much quicker, no?


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Old 03-11-2009, 07:05 AM   #77
Astor
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At any rate. I think simple overreacting is the case here.
I'm inclined to agree.

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Give whatever arguments you will against guns; you are entitled to your opinions. Whoever said, "It's only a mental security toy for fat and stupid homeowners worried about petty theft", uhh, no. Go walk aimlessly around alone in racially hostile territory towards whatever your primary appearnace if you think it's all disneyland out there. HAH. See you in hell. Good luck fighting off that mountain lion in the wilderness when it weighs the same as you do and can carry a carcass, what, twice its weight? And it can move faster than you ever could on your best day? Not to mention the 5" flying razor blades it has for fingernails that could **** you up? Oh yah, you're really gonna have a fighting chance against a giant hungry and territorial wild cat with pebbles and sticks in modern society.
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't current legislation geared towards banning Assault Rifles and such?

Quote:
Generally, I do not think totally outlawing them is going to stop the cartels and gangs from getting hold of them. And if the civilian military (cops) don't have them when the criminals DO...well, you do the math. (Maybe that is what some hope for?)
I'm curious why you suggest that banning firearms amongst the Civilian population would prevent the Police from carrying them. Handguns are Illegal in the UK, yet our Police Forces make regular use of them.

Outlawing anything will not stop the criminals. Handguns were banned in the UK after the Dunblane Massacre, but that hasn't stopped people from getting hold of them - you can pick up a gun on the streets of Manchester (known for it's high gun/gang crime rates) for no more than £20. A kid can go and end a person's life for less than an Xbox 360 game.

I'm not pro-firearms, but the problems don't go away with a simple ban.

Although, I am a fan of Denny Crane...

AK.






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Old 03-11-2009, 04:58 PM   #78
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Could this thread be split into a gun control thread? Its going off topic.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:02 PM   #79
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Could this thread be split into a gun control thread? Its going off topic.
No it's still on topic, because the pro-2nd amendment stance is why the teacher called the cops.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:15 PM   #80
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No it's still on topic, because the pro-2nd amendment stance is why the teacher called the cops.
The thread is on targeting specific beliefs and possible attacks on free speech.

Talking about the 2ed amendment and who should be able to own guns is a separate topic.

I'm not saying -don't- talk about it. I am just pointing out that this thread should stay on topic with the teacher and not go off onto a tangent about gun laws. That has room in another thread.
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