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Old 03-05-2009, 11:22 PM   #81
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I am currently re-reading Hair to the Empire by Timothy Zahn.

And last month I read the Belgariad by David Eddings, then read the Malloreon, Then Belgarath the Sorcerer. Thats 11 books good sized books in a month. And I was vary slow to learn how to read and write. So I'm proud of myself. lol


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Old 03-06-2009, 04:45 AM   #82
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I am currently re-reading Hair to the Empire by Timothy Zahn.
Once youve finished that... if you havent already checked out the comic book versions of these, make sure you do! They are awesome! Co-written by Zahn too.

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Old 03-06-2009, 05:28 AM   #83
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Once youve finished that... if you havent already checked out the comic book versions of these, make sure you do! They are awesome! Co-written by Zahn too.

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I'll second that. The comic versions are good too.


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Old 03-06-2009, 08:29 AM   #84
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I just finished up Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose, pretty good book about the Lewis and Clark Expedition... definitely worth the read if you're interested in that sort of thing.

Then, I also just finished Star Strike by Ian Douglas... I don't know what to make of this book but if you enjoy John Ringo and/or David Weber than you'll enjoy this book about Mankind's future.... that's about all I can say about it...

Then I'm starting Pillars of Creation by Terry Goodkind... a friend of mine made me read Wizards First Rule and then I just started going through the series... from the looks of it its going to be a good book...


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Old 03-06-2009, 10:52 AM   #85
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Once youve finished that... if you havent already checked out the comic book versions of these, make sure you do! They are awesome! Co-written by Zahn too.

mtfbwya
I never even knew that there was a comic book version. Do you know where I can find them online for free?

Zahn has to be my favorite star wars author. He gave us the amazing Mara Jade! And the marriage between Luke and Mara. That could not have been better

None star wars I have to go with either David Eddings or John Flanagan. They may be an easy read but I like the Rangers Apprentice books.


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Old 03-06-2009, 11:03 AM   #86
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hehe. Please tell me which translation you read. I will avoid it!!
I didn't use a translation.

The only Roman literature of much worth is a couple of the Epodes, Thyestes, and Mostellaria. Tacitus can be good, too, but almost all the translations gut his work.



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Old 03-06-2009, 04:14 PM   #87
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I've started to read some Kafka, talk about trippy stuff.



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Old 03-06-2009, 04:47 PM   #88
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Well, I was recently reading the dragon heir, 3rd and last book of the heir series, I really recommend buying the Warrior Heir (1st), the Wizard heir (2nd), and the Dragon heir (3rd)


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Old 03-06-2009, 06:45 PM   #89
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Dexter in the Dark, the third book in the Dexter series.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:35 PM   #90
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:34 AM   #91
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Tacitus can be good, too, but almost all the translations gut his work.
By adding the verbs back in?

Tacitus is the only thing worse than Virgil to set a class as translation; the moaning would destroy even the strongest teacher's soul. Virgil may have done weird things with his verbs but at least he used them...


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Old 03-07-2009, 02:03 AM   #92
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Pavlos & Insidious.. I envy your ability to read these texts without having to rely on translations, like us poor plebs There is no truer phase than 'Lost In Translation' especially into a mongrel of a language such as English. I wonder if Latin verse makes a less torrid journey when translated into Italian, French or Spanish...?

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Old 03-07-2009, 09:06 AM   #93
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Pavlos & Insidious.. I envy your ability to read these texts without having to rely on translations, like us poor plebs There is no truer phase than 'Lost In Translation' especially into a mongrel of a language such as English. I wonder if Latin verse makes a less torrid journey when translated into Italian, French or Spanish...?
Trouble with Latin is that at a basic qualification like GCSE (students of age 16) you're studying Virgil and he can be so mind-bogglingly weird both in construction and in content (the ships turn into nymphs in one of the books, don't they?) that it can put you off for life. I don't think most 16 year olds care about the dramatic tension of Polites's death (Aeneid, ii.526-529) with its hectic, staccarto sounds, odd metre, and delaying of the critical word "saucius" (mortally wounded) until the end.

GCSE students of German don't read Goethe... they'd probably end up in the Hotel Asylum if they did. You might as well ask a non-native speaker of English to read Carlyle with his achronological plots and compound adverbs as get someone with a Latin vocabulary under the 2000 words required for A-Level (one step up from GCSE) to translate Virgil.

But the discussion of the teaching of Latin is probably best reserved for another thread...


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Old 03-07-2009, 09:27 AM   #94
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I must say I actually enjoyed reading parts of the Iliad and Odyssey in Greek (not actually reading, to be honest, but translating directly from Greek). Reading a translated version is a lot more difficult, though.

And, yeah, Tacitus is hell.

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I've started to read some Kafka, talk about trippy stuff.
Haha, yeah.


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Old 03-08-2009, 03:45 PM   #95
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...so mind-bogglingly weird both in construction and in content that it can put you off for life....

But the discussion of the teaching of Latin is probably best reserved for another thread...
This brings me to some of my perennial queries about the Aeneid, as I am more interested in its aetiology and historical context.

*Would a reader/listener in late 1st century BCE have felt it was weird as well, or is there something that hs gone missing in teaching of Latin over the centuries. The decription of Marcellus apparently moved his mother Octavia to tears, which if true, would have been unlikely if it was written it in a truly mind boggling way.

*Why did Virgil choose the datylic hexameter? Is listening to it in Latin 'pleasant to the ear', as rhyming verse can be in English. The Dryden translation, has significnt addenda, and is a sure departure from a pure translation, but is still admired by many because it is a pretty piece in English.

*One final query.. when speaking Latin, is it right when people pronunce the letter "I" as "eye''?

eg.(using a term i know from anatomy) 'digiti minimi' (little finger)
some people pronounce it ''digit-eye minim-eye'' or is it more correct if its pronounced the way a modern Italian would say it, with the 'i' making an ''ee'' sound?

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Old 03-08-2009, 10:13 PM   #96
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*One final query.. when speaking Latin, is it right when people pronunce the letter "I" as "eye''?

eg.(using a term i know from anatomy) 'digiti minimi' (little finger)
some people pronounce it ''digit-eye minim-eye'' or is it more correct if its pronounced the way a modern Italian would say it, with the 'i' making an ''ee'' sound?
Nope, it should be pronounced as "ee", as in modern italian, spanish and portuguese.


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Old 03-08-2009, 10:19 PM   #97
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*Would a reader/listener in late 1st century BCE have felt it was weird as well, or is there something that hs gone missing in teaching of Latin over the centuries. The decription of Marcellus apparently moved his mother Octavia to tears, which if true, would have been unlikely if it was written it in a truly mind boggling way.
It's not mind-boggling in and of itself, the syntax is highly poetic; Virgil relies an awful lot on hyperbaton which isn't a sort of electronic baton which does the washing-up for you and tells you the time of day in any part of the world you care to ask for, it's the rearrangement of word order beyond usual sense to achieve poetic effect. English isn't an inflected language and its sense is tied not to word-ending but word position so it's more difficult to do but essentially we're talking about Yoda-speak but to achieve drama, or bathos, or something.

The problem comes when you're facing unseen translation in an exam. A load of small birds bursting out of the roasted hog at Trimalchio's dinner (cena trimalchionis from Petronius's Satyricon, if you're wondering) perfectly amusing and we understand the humour of it when represented in English. But add to that an uncertainty in your ability to read or translate the language and things that seem to defy the laws of logic can throw you off. I seem to remember everyone an exam involving Trimalchio's dinner deciding that sweets came out of the hog because it made much more sense than birds. It's only mind-boggling to someone who can't read Latin fluently.

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*Why did Virgil choose the datylic hexameter? Is listening to it in Latin 'pleasant to the ear', as rhyming verse can be in English. The Dryden translation, has significnt addenda, and is a sure departure from a pure translation, but is still admired by many because it is a pretty piece in English.
He chose it because that happened to be the established form for epic poetry in Latin. The generation of epic poets before him had established it by hacking up parts of the Greek metre. You can rap Virgil if you want; the stresses of the lines are quantitative which means that they're worked out mathematically. Virgil doesn't sound like speech at all; the natural stresses on the words are all messed up by the metre. In English verse we rely on both accentual and syllabic metre (because its a truly weird language even in terms of poetic traditions which we derive from French and from Old English) which means that it sounds (even when highly lyrical in the case of Dryden, Marlowe, or Tennyson) like speech. The stresses fall where they would naturally if you were speaking (the syllabic part purloined from French) and also on alliterative or rhyming syllables (accentual).

Byron tried writing some quantative stuff in English but the language just won't allow for it. Virgil can sound both very dramatic and very cold as a result of its mathematical verse but English verse (provided it's done well) always sounds organic and natural on some level:

Doubt thou the stars are fire,
Doubt that the sun doth move.
Doubt that truth be a liar:
But never doubt, I love.

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*One final query.. when speaking Latin, is it right when people pronunce the letter "I" as "eye''?
There's a fascinating book (well, fascinating to people like me...) called Vox Latina printed by the Cambridge University Press which details the way in which Latin words should be pronounced and the methods some very old, dusty people from Cambridge Colleges used to derive that pronunciation.

I wouldn't worry about it too much but the basic rules to keep in mind are: sound every syllable and that all consonants are hard.

i: ee as in "flee"
ae: like eye
oe: oy as in "coy"
iu: "y" as in "yes"

Bearing in mind that this sort of pronunciation is like speaking English in Received Pronunciation and if you do find yourself in ancient Rome, it's likely to get you beaten up by the Roman equivalent of chavs.


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Old 03-08-2009, 10:52 PM   #98
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*Would a reader/listener in late 1st century BCE have felt it was weird as well, or is there something that hs gone missing in teaching of Latin over the centuries. The decription of Marcellus apparently moved his mother Octavia to tears, which if true, would have been unlikely if it was written it in a truly mind boggling way.
No, it wouldn' have been at all unlikely. Pav means by that that it was stylistically radical, not that it was totally incomprehensible. Consider the difficulty a non-native English speaker might have, say, with Finnegans Wake, or another such work.

Quote:
*Why did Virgil choose the dactylic hexameter?
Both the Iliad and the Odyssey are dactylic hexameter. Virgil is attempting to produce the Roman epic. What are the two archetypal epics?

Quote:
*One final query.. when speaking Latin, is it right when people pronunce the letter "I" as "eye''?
No.

'i' = 'ee'
ae = 'eye'
oe = 'oi'

All consonants should be understood as 'hard' consonants, with the exceptions of 's' and 'v', which should be used as a 'w'. In fact, there was no division between 'u' and 'v' in Latin. Similarly, if you see a 'j' in the text, that's meant to indicate an 'i' being used more like a 'y'; i.e., "jam" for "iam". 'h' should be treated as an aspirant.



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Old 03-08-2009, 11:42 PM   #99
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:44 AM   #100
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Pavlos & Insidious! In all my 7 years here, I have never learnt as much from two single posts! Thank you very much for you time and patience with my 'noob' queries

I have one more. In the movie 'The Passion of The Christ' If either of you have seen it - they apparently went to some sort of effort to have the Roman soldiers speaking a mode of Latin appropriate to Roman soldiers. If you have seen it, how did they manage? As an untrained ear, it sounds like Italian in meter , as opposed to the stiff sounding Latin that you hear in a church.

@Pavlos.. that book does sound interesting indeed Im quite interested in how spoken languages change and evolve. From my own perspective, modern Turkish has changed phenomenally in the last 30 years. My Cypriot Turkish accent and dialect keeps me at that circa 1970s meter. Unless I actually live in Turkey, theres no way Im going to pick up the quick and interwoven modern style that has developed. I can understand it, but I cant reproduce it, most Cypriot Turks cannot. Apparently Greek Cypriots have similar issues too.

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Old 03-09-2009, 04:04 AM   #101
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@Pavlos.. that book does sound interesting indeed Im quite interested in how spoken languages change and evolve. From my own perspective, modern Turkish has changed phenomenally in the last 30 years. My Cypriot Turkish accent and dialect keeps me at that circa 1970s meter. Unless I actually live in Turkey, theres no way Im going to pick up the quick and interwoven modern style that has developed. I can understand it, but I cant reproduce it, most Cypriot Turks cannot. Apparently Greek Cypriots have similar issues too.
The Oxford English Dictionary is one of the greatest Victorian achievements; as much as one of Brunel's bridges or boats. From the introduction to the second edition (and latest):

Quote:
The aim of this Dictionary is to present in alphabetical series the words that have formed the English vocabulary from the time of the earliest records [ca. AD740] down to the present day, with all the relevant facts concerning their form, sense-history, pronunciation, and etymology. It embraces not only the standard language of literature and conversation, whether current at the moment, or obsolete, or archaic, but also the main technical vocabulary, and a large measure of dialectal usage and slang.
No other dictionary in the world does this. It's a massive undertaking, so much so that the last edition was in 1933 (though with many, many revisions through the decades) and the third edition won't be done until the late 2030s. The OED is the history of a language on one shelf, it's really quite impressive... if rather large. Fortunately, it's also the history of a language online, too.

Vox Latina is essentially only useful for classical Latin (100 BC to 100 AD), by the way, and I wouldn't know about Church Latin. I believe Darathy knows more about mediaeval Latin -- from which it is derived -- but given the way some reverends manage to arse up the stresses of the King James I edition of the Bible in English (by randomly placing emphasis on the words that they like and thereby destroying one of the greatest works of poetry in the English language) it wouldn't surprise me if people speaking in Church Latin were doing much the same to their poetic texts.


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Old 03-09-2009, 09:09 AM   #102
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Currently reading Shogun by James Clavell. Only about 150 pages into the 1000pgs+, but great book so far.

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Old 03-09-2009, 01:19 PM   #103
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Currently reading Shogun by James Clavell. Only about 150 pages into the 1000pgs+, but great book so far.
They made a miniseries of that many moons ago... It's pretty darn good... even has Toshiro Mifune in it, so was instant win before the cameras started rolling

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Old 03-09-2009, 03:31 PM   #104
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Currently reading Shogun by James Clavell. Only about 150 pages into the 1000pgs+, but great book so far.
Amazing book. Read it, loved it. Clavell also wrote books about Japan before and after Shogun, which, if I remember well, is set in 1599-1600, should you be interested. I haven't read another one myself, yet, but I might.

Fun thing is, after a while, if you try a little, you learn some Japanese words.


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Old 03-09-2009, 06:03 PM   #105
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Amazing book. Read it, loved it. Clavell also wrote books about Japan before and after Shogun, which, if I remember well, is set in 1599-1600, should you be interested. I haven't read another one myself, yet, but I might.

Fun thing is, after a while, if you try a little, you learn some Japanese words.
Seconded! Talk about an epic book... there is no other way to describe but epic, especially near the end of it! Also, not only can you pick up a little of the language, but you can get a small 'feel' for the people... I was amazed when attitudes and the like that I saw in the book were echoed in real life!

Yeah, I just can't recommend it enough.

Also, if anybody's interested, the Horatio Hornblower series by C.S.Forester is rather good... at least the 2 books I've read so far.


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Old 03-09-2009, 06:36 PM   #106
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Also, if anybody's interested, the Horatio Hornblower series by C.S.Forester is rather good... at least the 2 books I've read so far.
That's good to hear - I have not yet read the novels, but after watching the series I am tempted to get them. Glad to know that they are recommended!


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Old 03-10-2009, 12:49 AM   #107
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Re-reading A Clockwork Orange and 1984.

Two of my favorite books.

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Old 03-10-2009, 09:42 AM   #108
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They made a miniseries of that many moons ago... It's pretty darn good... even has Toshiro Mifune in it, so was instant win before the cameras started rolling
Yep, seen bits and pieces in the past, and I plan on getting a copy and going through it fully once I'm finished the novel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miltiades
Amazing book. Read it, loved it. Clavell also wrote books about Japan before and after Shogun, which, if I remember well, is set in 1599-1600, should you be interested. I haven't read another one myself, yet, but I might.

Fun thing is, after a while, if you try a little, you learn some Japanese words
Yeah, its in 1600. All the cultural and historical references as well are great, and the un-PC attitudes between all the nationalities is very interesting. Definitely loving it so far.

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Old 03-11-2009, 12:54 AM   #109
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:08 AM   #110
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I am currently re-reading Hair to the Empire by Timothy Zahn.
Is that the hippy musical version?

I'm still trying to finish Atlas Shrugged. The story actually wouldn't be bad if Rand's terrible writing didn't get in the way.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-11-2009, 02:27 AM   #111
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I'm still trying to finish Atlas Shrugged. The story actually wouldn't be bad if Rand's terrible writing didn't get in the way.
Oy, that book is really long if I remember correctly, I think that is why I never really got to the end....good book though, as you said, it would've been better if Rand's writing was better.


you very much
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:54 PM   #112
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Master of the English language she was not.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:18 AM   #113
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Yeah... I got through the Fountainhead and then only a quarter of the way through Atlas when I realized that I had no idea what had happened earlier...

I just gave up on Rand after that...

SW01: Yes, Hornblower is great they are much like a Napoleanic version of Weber's Honor Harrington... thought I think Forester's writing is better along with more believable characters, but both are worth the reads.


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Old 03-12-2009, 03:02 PM   #114
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I'm still on the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. Wonderful series of books. There's 11 or 12 of them in all, and I'm up to the 4th one.

I finished Blood of the Fold yesterday and started reading Temple of the Winds.


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Old 03-12-2009, 03:52 PM   #115
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SW01: Yes, Hornblower is great they are much like a Napoleanic version of Weber's Honor Harrington... thought I think Forester's writing is better along with more believable characters, but both are worth the reads.

YES!! I have found more Hornblower fans! The book series is indeed amazing That reminds me, have you read any of Patrick O'Brian's books....Master and Commander...any of those? Fairly more recent than Forester's work, but it is pretty good


you very much
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:08 PM   #116
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YES!! I have found more Hornblower fans! The book series is indeed amazing That reminds me, have you read any of Patrick O'Brian's books....Master and Commander...any of those? Fairly more recent than Forester's work, but it is pretty good
Regrettably not - I really need to improve my fiction collection...but rest assured Master & Commander is also on my long-term reading list!


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Old 03-12-2009, 04:22 PM   #117
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Regrettably not - I really need to improve my fiction collection...but rest assured Master & Commander is also on my long-term reading list!
I've only had cursory glances, but the Aubrey/Maturin series is definately intriguing.

Gotta put Hornblower on the list for when i've finished the Jack Steel series as well.






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Old 03-12-2009, 04:36 PM   #118
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It's got a pretty good plot; it's about a penguin named Tux who tries to escape from the clutches of an evil home improvement corporation that wants to put overpriced, ill-functioning windows into every household. 'Tis a bit juvenile, although rather enjoyable.
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:59 PM   #119
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I heard Tux dies at the end. Is it true? I also heard it'll be made into a movie. Peter Jackson is a good candidate for directing the movie, I heard. If someone knows how to make such an epic tale into a movie, it's him.


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Old 03-12-2009, 07:22 PM   #120
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YES!! I have found more Hornblower fans! The book series is indeed amazing That reminds me, have you read any of Patrick O'Brian's books....Master and Commander...any of those? Fairly more recent than Forester's work, but it is pretty good
No, I never did read those, but I just put the first two on hold at my Local library... should be an interesting read if they're anything like Hornblower... Thanks!

And, in other news, just finished up Pillars of Creation over 700 pages or so of goodness... just took a while to figure out what was happening at the end...

However, it's definitely a good way to continue the Sword of Truth series... up next will be Hornblower and the Hotspur, Master and Commander, Semper Mars, and, then, the first book of Plutarch's Lives... and then let's see what other stuff I could throw onto that list just to do so...

God, I love my library...


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