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Old 03-12-2009, 08:53 AM   #41
GarfieldJL
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Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
I don't think this to be the case. I think -and this is just my opinion- that you ignored the research I cited because it threatens your preconceived notion of the way things must be. I think (again, just my opinion) that you exemplify the conclusions of studies that link conservatism, extreme religiosity, and cognitive function. I base this opinion on the fact that my synopses of the various research demonstrated how even if you fallaciously conclude that one of the researchers had issues of negligence with a totally different study that the data stand on their own merit and are available independently from the statistical analyses conducted by said researcher.
Seriously, you expect me to believe a study where the head researcher is known for committing fraud? If this were the reverse you'd be questioning the veracity of the research as well.

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Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Moreover, the statistical methods are clearly outlined as are the data (which are from an independent source). It, therefore, follows that refusing to acknowledge or to even critically analyze the data and the conclusions (including a careful scrutiny of the methodology) is indicative of either limitations in cognitive function or deliberate ignorance. Or both.
As I pointed out before, this is extremely similar to the studies that were made to justify the views of racist bigots.

Also there is a perfect quote for this:

Quote:
"There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
--Samuel Langhorne Clemens


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
I add, also, that I only point this out since you've yet to offer any rational evaluation of the data but, rather, choose to engage in argumentum ad hominem regarding the character of the researcher. I wouldn't make the accusation here, since we aren't expected to adhere to professional academic standards, but at an academic conference this would earn you an accusation of intellectual cowardice: too afraid of the data and it's conclusions to deal with it directly resorting instead to straw man arguments that are easier to tear down and ad hominem attacks on the researcher to cloud the issue.
Actually I have provided a rational evaluation, you just want to believe these studies to add credibility to your discriminatory views that atheists are superior to people that believe in God.

http://www.un.org/Pubs/chronicle/200...3/0307p18.html


Anyways, you've used questionable sources, sources with a research style which is very similar to what the Nazis used to justify their attempt to justify the Holocaust, and you honestly think I'm going to be dumb enough to consider these studies to be remotely credible.

In my opinion you're just turning to this garbage to try to justify your own beliefs, by trying to come up with the idea that you're superior because you don't believe in God.

Basic common sense would tell anyone with half a brain the research studies you used aren't credible. Quite frankly they are as credible as the studies to justify racism, in other words they have no credibility.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:00 PM   #42
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Oh I get it, so you think because it's a source that promotes atheism it's legimate no matter what, if this had been a study with a researcher that said people whom believe in god are smarter with the same reputation you saying you'd believe that? I'm getting the impression you wouldn't.
I actually would - because, as I've said, I'm not an atheist! I'm a Lutheran that believes that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior! Whoops, guess you messed up there

Have any more witty responses?

However, my personal beliefs really don't have any place in this issue, and as such, I choose not to cite them while I engage in logical discourse.

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Old 03-12-2009, 04:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
I actually would - because, as I've said, I'm not an atheist! I'm a Lutheran that believes that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior! Whoops, guess you messed up there

Have any more witty responses?

However, my personal beliefs really don't have any place in this issue, and as such, I choose not to cite them while I engage in logical discourse.
I wasn't addressing SkinWalker, not you Ender...
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:07 PM   #44
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Well, considering Skin hadn't posted in a while and I was the post directly before you, perhaps in the future you should use some forum etiquette and quote what you're answering. Or address someone.

Otherwise, everyone assumes you're talking either to the OP or the person who posted directly before you.

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Old 03-12-2009, 04:11 PM   #45
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Ender check the post again because I did quote him

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....9&postcount=41
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:26 PM   #46
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The post you just gave me was written after the post I quoted. Thanks, but a retcon does not make you any less sgkljajw.


Skin actually hadn't even posted in this thread when you wrote the post in question.

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Old 03-12-2009, 07:33 PM   #47
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See page 1:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....9&postcount=40

You were replying to post 41

Anyways going through the blogs and doing a search shows that there probably is a persecution of Christians in the United States.

It's practically a right down the middle in the blogs, the left wing ones call the Christians a bunch of whiners then turn around and bash them. The Right wing blogs say it's an out an out war on religion. I'm not willing to say that it's quite that far, but I do think it's subconscious on the part of some to bash people of faith because they are uncomfortable in their atheism.

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Old 03-12-2009, 08:41 PM   #48
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You were replying to post 41
No, he was replying to post #37. Which was made before Skinwalker even entered the thread, which was clearly directed at Ender. Nice try though.
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Anyways going through the blogs and doing a search shows that there probably is a persecution of Christians in the United States.
Wow, you managed to search all of the blogs on the interwebs and come to this impressive conclusion? I find your assertion ridiculous in the extreme. You are of the opine that somehow a vast minority in the United States is actively persecuting the overwhelming majority? The majority which holds (nearly) every single office of power in the country? Riiiiiight.



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Old 03-12-2009, 09:07 PM   #49
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It's incredibly callous to brush off the troubles of others groups like atheists while sitting there like a martyr trying to paint your own little tempest in a teapot as 'persecution'.

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You are of the opine that somehow a vast minority in the United States is actively persecuting the overwhelming majority?
When 'persecution' in Garfield Newspeak means what it does, everyone is persecuted. If Christians are persecuted because they're having their beliefs questioned and are allegedly facing widespread discrimination, what does that make the atheists, people with dark skin, women, gypsies, Arabs, illegal immigrants, elderly, and the handicapped? Not to mention all the other groups facing discrimination of some sort in the US ?

My, that's a lot of persecution going on, someone should plead with the UN members nations to send in at least a battalion each of peacekeepers. Rwanda is nothing compared to this.

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Old 03-12-2009, 10:58 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfy
See page 1:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....9&postcount=40

You were replying to post 41
Wow, it's pretty bad when you don't even understand your own posts.

If you look at the post I refer to, it is post 37, which came directly after I posted. I expect some sort of acknowledgment that you made a mistake by calling me an atheist, or even just an acknowledgment that you were talking to me.

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No, he was replying to post #37. Which was made before Skinwalker even entered the thread, which was clearly directed at Ender. Nice try though.
Thanks ET.

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Old 03-13-2009, 12:13 AM   #51
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Interestingly enough I did provide a rebuttal source on the intelligence debate.

Spirituality in Higher Education
Don't know how much I trust it... I mean it's only UCLA and not TAMU(hehe mimartin should get it).

Guess I didn't do enough to point it out. The premise of it is that the spiritual students tend to be more dedicated to study.

I dislike that whole debate, as I could probably find a study that shows that men have higher IQ's than women. Can I then use that study to justify calling women inferior intellectually? No, because it is not a fair treatment.


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Old 03-17-2009, 10:48 AM   #52
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Interesting, I wonder why they are more commited?

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I could probably find a study that shows that men have higher IQ's than women
You could, but as IQ tests are A: made with a male brain in mind, and B:are easier the more you take them (so males would win simply due to having taken more tests in their life), it wouldn't be very credible. Still, if you have a study showing this, please bring it up (possibly in another thread.
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:39 AM   #53
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Interesting, I wonder why they are more commited?
That could be multiple reasons.


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Originally Posted by mur'phon
You could, but as IQ tests are A: made with a male brain in mind, and B:are easier the more you take them (so males would win simply due to having taken more tests in their life), it wouldn't be very credible. Still, if you have a study showing this, please bring it up (possibly in another thread.
And what's to say the other tests weren't deliberately geared to make Religious people look bad, or the test had to do with an area that the Atheist had specialized studies in. This is an extreme example but say we the Aetheist is in the medical field and the religious person is a Mechanical Engineer, and the test is on Human Anatomy, which do you think would do better on the exam?
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:45 AM   #54
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And what's to say the other tests weren't deliberately geared to make Religious people look bad,
By the same token, what's to say they were?






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Old 03-17-2009, 11:53 AM   #55
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And what's to say the other tests weren't deliberately geared to make Religious people look bad, or the test had to do with an area that the Atheist had specialized studies in.
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Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
By the same token, what's to say they were?
Anyone with access to the data sets (ASVAB test scores and the correlating demographics) and an Excel spreadsheet. The test scores are empirical, meaning they are hard scores. The demographics are self reported at the time the tests were administered. ASVABS are administered in just about every public high school in the United States sponsored by the Dept of Defense.
Quote:
This is an extreme example but say we the Aetheist is in the medical field and the religious person is a Mechanical Engineer, and the test is on Human Anatomy, which do you think would do better on the exam?
That has no bearing on the study in question. The tests were standard ASVAB, designed to multiple areas of cognitive function not specific learned knowledge like engineering or anatomy.


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Old 03-17-2009, 12:01 PM   #56
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Anyone with access to the data sets (ASVAB test scores and the correlating demographics) and an Excel spreadsheet. The test scores are empirical, meaning they are hard scores. The demographics are self reported at the time the tests were administered. ASVABS are administered in just about every public high school in the United States sponsored by the Dept of Defense.
Again it depends on how the test was administered, there are so many different variables that can invalidate these, that the test is laughable. This is one reason why many Atheists get looked upon in a negative light. The way they come across trying to act superior to everyone else and trying to justify it, like you're doing now is extremely insulting and if the situation were reversed I'd probably be banished or facing a lawsuit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
That has no bearing on the study in question. The tests were standard ASVAB, designed to multiple areas of cognitive function not specific learned knowledge like engineering or anatomy.
It was an example that many people can understand.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:07 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
And what's to say the other tests weren't deliberately geared to make Religious people look bad, or the test had to do with an area that the Atheist had specialized studies in. This is an extreme example but say we the Aetheist is in the medical field and the religious person is a Mechanical Engineer, and the test is on Human Anatomy, which do you think would do better on the exam?
IQ tests test your IQ, so the only reason an IQ test could be geared towards one group is if that group on average has a higher IQ than the other. I don't think this argument works in your favour.

EDIT: Afterall, in your example it is a perfectly valid conclusion to say that the atheists, who specialised in the medical field know more about human anatomy. Is this unfair towards the religious mechanical engineers?

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Old 03-17-2009, 12:11 PM   #58
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Again it depends on how the test was administered, there are so many different variables that can invalidate these, that the test is laughable.
It was the ASVAB test. It was administered to millions of teenagers in the United States by those that are seeking to fill the ranks of the military with the best and brightest? What concerns might you have with that?

It looks like you're just making excuses.

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like you're doing now is extremely insulting and if the situation were reversed I'd probably be banished or facing a lawsuit.
Pure, un-informed rhetoric. Have you any examples of anyone "facing a lawsuit" at LF for citing empirical data from a scientific paper? Have you any examples of any member having their account closed at LF for citing empirical evidence from a scientific report? Come on Garf... you're better than that.

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It was an example that many people can understand.
It was an example that was misleading and dishonest in the context of what we're discussion. Lets remain rational.


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Old 03-17-2009, 12:18 PM   #59
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It was the ASVAB test. It was administered to millions of teenagers in the United States by those that are seeking to fill the ranks of the military with the best and brightest? What concerns might you have with that?

It looks like you're just making excuses.
Why don't you look at other historical studies on people based on race or religion and you'll see why I seriously question the credibility of the study.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Pure, un-informed rhetoric. Have you any examples of anyone "facing a lawsuit" at LF for citing empirical data from a scientific paper? Have you any examples of any member having their account closed at LF for citing empirical evidence from a scientific report? Come on Garf... you're better than that.
Do you seriously want an honest answer to that question?

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Originally Posted by SkinWalker
It was an example that was misleading and dishonest in the context of what we're discussion. Lets remain rational.
Let's see you use a study that reeks of trying to further an ulterior agenda, there are plenty of historical examples as to why this study probably isn't credible, and you accuse me of being irrational.

The reason a lot of people have a problem with atheists has to do with their attitude.
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:19 PM   #60
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Why don't you look at other historical studies on people based on race or religion and you'll see why I seriously question the credibility of the study.
Those "historical studies" don't appear to be related to the one I'm citing. I'm not aware of any other studies that use Dept of Defense ASVAB scores and the demographic data obtained to look at correlations and trends. Feel free to cite these alleged 'historical studies' should they actually exist.

In the mean time, I'll remain in the present with the empirical data that currently exists. Data that you appear to simply wish away or ignore simply because it isn't to your liking. You have a conclusion. You're interested in only that data which are supportive. This is rational?

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Do you seriously want an honest answer to that question?
Honest answers are all I'm ever interested in.

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Let's see you use a study that reeks of trying to further an ulterior agenda, there are plenty of historical examples as to why this study probably isn't credible, and you accuse me of being irrational.
I can't imagine what use I'd have for such a study. You'd like that since it creates a strawman you can more easily knock down. Using such a study would be irrational so I stick to being rational. I accuse you of being irrational because you're not demonstrating otherwise.

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The reason a lot of people have a problem with atheists has to do with their attitude.
That's the same comment I used to hear adults say when I was a kid. They weren't talking about "atheists," though. They were talking about blacks who were getting "uppity" and not sticking in "their place."


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Old 03-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #61
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I didn't see it in the study, but did they ever go back and see how many of the "Athiests" remained athiest.

Another thing to note is that the ASVAB would only test those athiests that intended to join the service. Since most of the athiests I knew had no intention of going off to war their ASVAB scores are unavailable. Getting their SAT scores would be awful difficult as well as they ended up dropping out of HS. An area the religious tend to be better at. Higher graduation rate. Seeing as how you have to graduate to join the service, the dumber of the athiests tend to get left off.


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Old 03-17-2009, 05:39 PM   #62
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Another thing to note is that the ASVAB would only test those athiests that intended to join the service.
Every student at my high school was given the ASVAB tests, regardless of intent to join the military.
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An area the religious tend to be better at. Higher graduation rate.
Source?



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Old 03-17-2009, 05:59 PM   #63
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Every student at my high school was given the ASVAB tests, regardless of intent to join the military.
Source?
Not at my school.
Unfortunately I lost my source. My apologies, I had a browser crash before I could copy it.

Oh and by the way,
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/1...gent-than.html
WRT the IQ issue...


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Old 03-17-2009, 09:09 PM   #64
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Another thing to note is that the ASVAB would only test those athiests that intended to join the service.
This premise isn't sound. N=10,650,267 in the study, representing the number of teens tested by CAT-ASVAB instruments. I don't know the numbers recruited for 1997-1998 for the Army, Navy, Air Farce, and Marines, but I do know that the number for 2004 was somewhere in the neighborhood of 120,000 combined for the four branches. If you really need a source, I could probably find one. But the important thing to keep in mind is that far, far more teens are tested than ever sign up. In addition, the ASVAB wasn't the only instrument used. The CAT was also used to obtain the relevant data. But since recruiters test nearly a million (around 800,000) students a year, even 120,000 indicates that far, far more are tested than ever plan to join the service.

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Since most of the athiests I knew had no intention of going off to war their ASVAB scores are unavailable.
I don't see how this anecdotal evidence is useful. The military prides itself in being representative of the general U.S. population. Indeed, there's no compelling reason to believe that atheists are any less patriotic than their superstitious counterparts.

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Getting their SAT scores would be awful difficult as well as they ended up dropping out of HS. An area the religious tend to be better at.
This is interesting. What's are data you use to arrive at that conclusion.

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Seeing as how you have to graduate to join the service, the dumber of the athiests tend to get left off.
Hmmm... I'm beginning to think you aren't really citing any data or empirical knowledge but relying on your own fallible perceptions and anecdotes. I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem to be a valid or sound argument. Your premise is that atheists are more likely to drop out of school and obtain a degree or equivalent. The military does, by the way, accept the GED -indeed, you actually get more promotional points for a GED than a HS diploma!


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Old 03-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #65
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Not at my school.
Unfortunately I lost my source. My apologies, I had a browser crash before I could copy it.

Oh and by the way,
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/1...gent-than.html
WRT the IQ issue...
That tertiary source lists something he refers to as the GSS, but I couldn't find a citation or footnote that reveals what this is. Do you know, perhaps, what the source or methodology is for the data acquisition and analysis? I'll look back over this blog again later when I get time, but if you know where to find it, please leave it here or send me a PM.


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Old 03-17-2009, 09:19 PM   #66
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Unfortunately I lost my source. My apologies, I had a browser crash before I could copy it.
Ctrl+h = Browser history.



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Old 03-17-2009, 10:36 PM   #67
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Another thing to note is that the ASVAB would only test those atheists that intended to join the service. Since most of the atheists I knew had no intention of going off to war their ASVAB scores are unavailable. Getting their SAT scores would be awful difficult as well as they ended up dropping out of HS. "There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Spelling.
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An area the religious tend to be better at. Higher graduation rate. Seeing as how you have to graduate to join the service, the dumber of the atheists tend to get left off.
Uh, what? Also corrected spelling.


I should probably mention that when I was in Basic Training there were a few who couldn't handle that I didn't go to church. There was nothing they could do about it, except piss and moan. They also couldn't keep their mouths shut about about Mormons, Catholics, and Jews either.

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Old 03-18-2009, 04:11 AM   #68
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And ET, I am quite aware of the history function, however since that was on my laptop, I prefer to have it automatically purge the history.

Sam, Yes, I was also in the military. When I first signed up I was an atheist(please note that spelling is not tied to intelligence at all, but thank you for showing me how much of a nit picker you are). In fact it wasn't until a few years after I had gotten out of the service that I became spiritual again.

As for the graduation rates, I wish I could find the study again.. I think I hit a perfect google search, then the browser crash. I apologize for not having that source available. In fact, I may have been looking at another study. One stating either Liberal or Democrat graduation rates versus Conservative or Republican. And no, I'm not looking that one up either. I am not doing my thesis on this subject, so I refuse to sit there and play the source game.


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Old 03-18-2009, 08:22 PM   #69
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I am not doing my thesis on this subject, so I refuse to sit there and play the source game.
Well then please forgive us if we don't want to just take you on your word that you saw on some unnamed website that atheists drop out of high school at a higher rate than theists.

It is not reasonable to make definitive claims about statistics like that if you've no numbers to back them up.



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Old 03-19-2009, 03:19 PM   #70
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Well then please forgive us if we don't want to just take you on your word that you saw on some unnamed website that atheists drop out of high school at a higher rate than theists.

It is not reasonable to make definitive claims about statistics like that if you've no numbers to back them up.
If Tommycat said he had a source, then Tommycat had a source, and it'd probably be a better source than the one you guys are using where the head researcher has a record of tampering with research data.



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Originally Posted by SkinWalker
I can't imagine what use I'd have for such a study. You'd like that since it creates a strawman you can more easily knock down. Using such a study would be irrational so I stick to being rational. I accuse you of being irrational because you're not demonstrating otherwise.
Your actions contradict your words, otherwise you wouldn't be using the study you are using as a reference.
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Old 03-19-2009, 04:02 PM   #71
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If Tommycat said he had a source, then Tommycat had a source, and it'd probably be a better source than the one you guys are using where the head researcher has a record of tampering with research data.
Umm, no. It means he doesn't have a source. All we have is his word that he has seen a source somewhere at some time that said such. That does not make "He has a source" fact.

For all we know, he made something up on the spot and is hiding behind a poor excuse. Is he doing that? I do not know, and I cannot judge as I do not have proof either way. Until he presents said source, what he stated has no evidence to back up and he probably shouldn't have said it in the first place if he was just going to say "i don't feel like playing the source game".

Besides, do you have any proof for or against the fact that Tommy's study may have been skewed as well? How, may I ask, do you determine the religion of every member of a countries schools and then follow their graduations, not taking in mind possible changes in faith, etc?

It is also interesting that you would back Tommy on such an argument, as you yourself have stated that any study relating to the subject isn't correct anyway.

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Your actions contradict your words, otherwise you wouldn't be using the study you are using as a reference.
Your actions contradict your words. See above.

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Again it depends on how the test was administered, there are so many different variables that can invalidate these, that the test is laughable. This is one reason why many Atheists get looked upon in a negative light. The way they come across trying to act superior to everyone else and trying to justify it, like you're doing now is extremely insulting and if the situation were reversed I'd probably be banished or facing a lawsuit.
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Old 03-19-2009, 04:46 PM   #72
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Umm, no. It means he doesn't have a source. All we have is his word that he has seen a source somewhere at some time that said such. That does not make "He has a source" fact.
Yeah, and I'm saying Tommycat has the reputation that if he says he has a source, then he has a source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
For all we know, he made something up on the spot and is hiding behind a poor excuse. Is he doing that? I do not know, and I cannot judge as I do not have proof either way. Until he presents said source, what he stated has no evidence to back up and he probably shouldn't have said it in the first place if he was just going to say "i don't feel like playing the source game".
In all honesty, he may have a source but even when we've used a government's own web page, people have still claimed the source is invalid. If you'll check, he provided a tertiary source, so he provided a source, which leads me to believe he's telling the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Besides, do you have any proof for or against the fact that Tommy's study may have been skewed as well? How, may I ask, do you determine the religion of every member of a countries schools and then follow their graduations, not taking in mind possible changes in faith, etc?
Key word: may

Seriously, you need more evidence than mere supposition, at least when I'm saying your source isn't a valid one, your source has a reputation of tampering with the gathered data, you have yet to present any evidence that demonstrates that fact concerning Tommycat's source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
It is also interesting that you would back Tommy on such an argument, as you yourself have stated that any study relating to the subject isn't correct anyway.
The fact I respect Tommycat and would back him on this has nothing to do with ideology, it has to do with behavior on the part of parties involved. Tommycat just interjected into the argument in a respectful manner only to have his head bit off, his integrity challenged, etc.

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Originally Posted by True_Avery
Your actions contradict your words. See above.
In a pig's eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Cute, but in my personal experience it's usually the atheists that start the baiting and insults, while the religious person ignores them. Then the atheists go a step further and the religious person finally complains publically.

Case and point is the commentary that we've been seeing in the Senate Chambers.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:07 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
In all honesty, he may have a source but even when we've used a government's own web page, people have still claimed the source is invalid. If you'll check, he provided a tertiary source, so he provided a source, which leads me to believe he's telling the truth.
This is true. I once used the IRS website as my source and a member said I did not know what I was talking about even though it was right there in black and white on the government's own web site. I really wish I could remember who that member was that said the IRS web site was invalid, although at least now I know it must have been an Atheist, most likely Achilles then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Cute, but in my personal experience it's usually the atheists that start the baiting and insults, while the religious person ignores them. Then the atheists go a step further and the religious person finally complains publically.

Case and point is the commentary that we've been seeing in the Senate Chambers.[/ started this thread?
Who started this thread?

Perhaps the same person that said a government website was invalid when it disproved their point.

Edited: For those that would like to look at the post I'm talking about instead of just making me out to be a lair. Looks like there are links there to me. http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....8&postcount=99

Last edited by mimartin; 03-19-2009 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Added link to post to protect my bad name.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:12 PM   #74
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This is true. I once used the IRS website as my source and a member said I did not know what I was talking about even though it was right there in black and white on the government own web site. I really wish I could remember who that member was that said the IRS web site was invalid, although at least now I know it must have been an Atheist, most likely Achilles then.
You didn't post up the IRS page if I recall, and that was my bad due to prior experience I've had with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Who started this thread?
Though the first post is mine, this thread was split off another thread by SkinWalker, I would have given this thread a different title and started this entirely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Perhaps the same person that said a government website was invalid when it disproved their point.
Again you didn't post the source if I remember correctly, where-as the person in the case I'm referring to did. And what I remember from my business law class contradicted some of what you claimed, so at the time since you had no sources posted I was going to rely on my knowledge of the topic.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:48 PM   #75
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Yeah, and I'm saying Tommycat has the reputation that if he says he has a source, then he has a source.
Then where is it?

I could honestly care less if he was a horrible person, or a saint. If he's going to make a statement like "theists graduate more", then I'd like to see proof. You probably would too if I had said "theists graduate less".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Key word: may

Seriously, you need more evidence than mere supposition, at least when I'm saying your source isn't a valid one, your source has a reputation of tampering with the gathered data, you have yet to present any evidence that demonstrates that fact concerning Tommycat's source.
Tommy's Source? What source? He has yet to give one. I cannot prove or disprove something that has yet to be presented to even existing.

As you ignored in a post a few threads back, I posted the report on the so called "tempering" with data and it was clearly written that there was no evidence of tampering. He was suspended for poor follow up to his research on that particular study. The studies are looked into, and they are reviewed and the review backs me up.

This, however, only has your supposition that it has been tampered with. Seriously, you need more evidence than mere supposition

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The fact I respect Tommycat and would back him on this has nothing to do with ideology, it has to do with behavior on the part of parties involved. Tommycat just interjected into the argument in a respectful manner only to have his head bit off, his integrity challenged, etc.
No, he interjected into the argument and made a strong statement and then refused to back it up. We have asked him to do such, and he has clearly stated he does not want to.

If anyone took a bite at him, it was himself.

I want to point out, however, that I am not calling him a liar or trying to discredit his character, merely his argument.

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In a pig's eye.
To what? Not looking above?

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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Case and point is the commentary that we've been seeing in the Senate Chambers.
So, all atheists are like people in Senate?

Nice generalizing. I'll go ahead and consider every "right wing" to be Ann Coulter from now on then, since she's a "right" that talks.

If you find it offensive, then you can leave. This is a debate forum, and in this forum we debate. I'm sorry if your claim that "god did it" doesn't hold much water with no proof, but if you are going to present it then you of all people should know it can be challenged. The rules allow it.

If you would like to start a thread on god with no challenge to your beliefs, then go to Ahto or one of the other casual boards to discuss. Better yet, go to a christian site and converse with like minded individuals.

If you do not like Skinwalker's sourced accusations of the religious, then debate back with your own facts. You have thus far given supposition, and as you said "Seriously, you need more evidence than mere supposition."

This is not an ad campaign. This is not your campaign trail. This is a debate forum. Either debate, or take your campaign to someone who cares.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:49 PM   #76
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The thing is, whether Tommycat had a source or not is irrelevant. The data are not available for us to look at. Indeed, I'm highly skeptical of the claim that atheists drop out of school at a higher rate than the superstitious. At the very least, correlation doesn't imply causation and other considerations might be controlled for if the data were available, like were the "atheists" from traditionally religious or irreligious homes; economic status; ethnicity; gender; etc.

The one source that Tommycat provided was a tertiary source that used the General Social Survey to show a trend of conservative/liberal men/women. The trends shown claimed to be IQ but the methodology is questionable since it relied upon several vocabulary questions rather than an actual test instrument designed to gauge a g factor. The variables used were WORDSUM and POLTVIEW if anyone bothered to track down the survey and do it themselves.

But, and more importantly, the survey was not relevant to the current topic nor the subtopic in the other thread which correlated cognitive function to conservativism since the tables at the tertiary source evaluate conservative males vs. conservative females and liberal males vs. liberal females. There was no comparison between conservative to liberal that I saw (though I would need to go back and look again). Even if there were, the GSS survey questions are not a valid or accepted instrument to gauge g factor. The CAT and the ASVAB are.


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Old 03-19-2009, 07:00 PM   #77
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Cute, but in my personal experience it's usually the atheists that start the baiting and insults, while the religious person ignores them. Then the atheists go a step further and the religious person finally complains publically.
If we're specifically talking Christianity, why is the Christian speaking out at all? If we follow Jesus example, he was obedient to death, and was tortured to death. So a guy who (if your a Christian you believe...) had all the power in the universe didn't do anything but pray and speak love at those who were killing him; none of that involves complaining. Indeed much of the NT says Christians will suffer persecution; my 2 cents if, if you are fighting against persecution, then are you really being persecuted in the manner Jesus was? Please note the considerable different between debating (which Jesus and Paul did), and trying to silence those of a differing opinion, which often to me seems to be what quite a few religious individuals try and do.

As a Christian, I would observe that even in the UK which is an awful lot more secularist than the USA, it has been my far more common observation to see atheists getting attacked by the religious than vice-versa.

Furthermore perhaps the question needs to be asked as to why atheists are so hostile to say Christianity, which is a religion which preaches loving your neighbours; could shock horror, there be a reason?

Moving onto other area's I would observe it is also my experience that atheists tend to be the more intelligent. Certainly I would query a study saying atheists drop out at a higher rate than theists as to what the study's definition of atheism is. I've had people tell me they were atheists, and then tell me they believe in God Suffice to say, when such people say things, it doesn't much surprise me that they have dropped out of anything.



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Old 03-19-2009, 09:16 PM   #78
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You didn't post up the IRS page if I recall, and that was my bad due to prior experience I've had with you.
AKA Garfield bias?

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Originally Posted by Garf Garf Garf
Again you didn't post the source if I remember correctly,
Seems you didn't remember correctly, seeing as Mimartin provided irrefutable forum evidence to the contrary.
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Originally Posted by Garfy
And what I remember from my business law class contradicted some of what you claimed, so at the time since you had no sources posted I was going to rely on my knowledge of the topic.
read: I was speaking out of my ass instead of researching my points.

I'd like to know what college all these law classes are coming out of

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Old 03-19-2009, 09:54 PM   #79
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AKA Garfield bias?
I've never denied that I had a bias, that tends to be you guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Seems you didn't remember correctly, seeing as Mimartin provided irrefutable forum evidence to the contrary.
Okay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
read: I was speaking out of my ass instead of researching my points.
That would be like you...

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
I'd like to know what college all these law classes are coming out of
Different states have different laws, ever stop and consider that...
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:54 PM   #80
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@Garfield: Please don't defend my source. Since it is not available it is not a fair source. If I cannot verify the veracity of the claim, then it really cannot be determined to be valid. I'm just tired of looking for it. I know I saw it. I know what it said. But it isn't fair to claim it is valid without them being able to see it for themselves. If I could remember what I had searched for that led me to 20-30 links to the same study, it would be much easier. They could look at it and pick it apart as we can to their sources. I'm just fed up with the whole "My source is better than your source" BS that goes on in here. So in essence I just said "F" it. I'm tired of playing. Their concern is valid.

I really wish I could find it again. It seemed a pretty good source to me. Links to third party data collection, DOE sources, etc. It was when I tried to open one of the PDF's on that site that the browser crashed on me. I do my searches on my laptop before I copy the links to my work machine. Some sites are not allowed at work.


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