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Old 07-03-2008, 11:44 AM   #121
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The latter I agree with, the form while is G-canon, never made too much sense to be, due to the fact Yoda said; "Size matters not". In otherwords, surely Yoda shouldn't be as powerful as other force users as he's much smaller - it's the same logic as Vader's Force Ability being reduced after Mustafar.
It is quite interesting yes, In "Rise of Darth Vader" Sidious makes it sounds like that Vader's problem is more mental than physical,plus there is no comment about him losing any potential after Dooku takes off his arm, yet in the Legacy of the Foce Series Lumiya tells Jacen Solo that it was her's and Vader's mechanical form that made them unfit to be true sith in a sense. Sidious also notes else where that after Mustafar, Vader was strong enough to kill him but not strong enough to succeed him. Another interpretation of GL's statement is that Vader was 80% of Sidious at that point, yet I heard people on another forum say that GL said he could never become as powerful as the emperor in the Revenge of the sith commentary I believe.
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:50 AM   #122
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Well, I guess the Reason Mustafar was more debilatating was because Vader lost more there than loosing an arm. The Force flows through living things, and as Ben said in NH "He's more Machine than man."

From that we can assume that he is more than 50% Machine, thus loosing 50% or more of his Force Potential, since the Force flows through "Living things", Organic Materials, as opposed to Inorganic Materials -your metals and such.

So, we can assume that since the force flows through the living (Organic) and doesn't through the inorganic, and since Vader is more machine than man, we can assume that his Force Potential was halved or so.

Did that make any sense?
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:06 PM   #123
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Well, I guess the Reason Mustafar was more debilatating was because Vader lost more there than loosing an arm. The Force flows through living things, and as Ben said in NH "He's more Machine than man."

From that we can assume that he is more than 50% Machine, thus loosing 50% or more of his Force Potential, since the Force flows through "Living things", Organic Materials, as opposed to Inorganic Materials -your metals and such.

So, we can assume that since the force flows through the living (Organic) and doesn't through the inorganic, and since Vader is more machine than man, we can assume that his Force Potential was halved or so.

Did that make any sense?
It made sense, I think you missed my point though and the one Darth Hord was responding too.

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It is quite interesting yes, In "Rise of Darth Vader" Sidious makes it sounds like that Vader's problem is more mental than physical,plus there is no comment about him losing any potential after Dooku takes off his arm, yet in the Legacy of the Foce Series Lumiya tells Jacen Solo that it was her's and Vader's mechanical form that made them unfit to be true sith in a sense. Sidious also notes else where that after Mustafar, Vader was strong enough to kill him but not strong enough to succeed him. Another interpretation of GL's statement is that Vader was 80% of Sidious at that point, yet I heard people on another forum say that GL said he could never become as powerful as the emperor in the Revenge of the sith commentary I believe.
See I think Sidious was wrong, in that if Vader was strong enough to kill him, I think he would of. So I would of thought Vader could succeed him, but couldn't kill him.



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Old 07-03-2008, 12:22 PM   #124
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See I think Sidious was wrong, in that if Vader was strong enough to kill him, I think he would of. So I would of thought Vader could succeed him, but couldn't kill him.
I think Sidious's logic was that it is possible that Vader could kill(more or less using the Any Given Sunday clause) him, which he obviously did to an extent, but that he would never be more powerful than him thus weakening the Sith Order. Sidious could have also been thinking that Vader would use his(vader's) apprentice to help him kills Sidoious, such as he was going to with Luke if he was turned and it was one of the main purposes of training Starkiller which Sidious most likely learned about.

To keep this somewhat related to the topic on hand and for those who may not know what were talking about it would be the same situation with Yuthara trying to have Revan help her kill Uthar because she may not have been able to kill him herself and would need the help of her apprentice (in Revan) to do so.
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Old 07-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #125
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I think Revan was a better leader than Darth Vader. But for me, I made an attempt to clarify 'Power'.
I know that Revan was a much better leader than Darth Vader.
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The problem we have with Revan, is many people having played KotOR; think *they* are Revan, and as such they would pawn everyone else in the Star Wars universe; such is Fanboyism.
I have seen it first-hand.

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Of course, in one on one fights we can speculate as to who will win; but there is always a slight err of unpredictability in any fight as to who can win. e.g. I'm trained in Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga) and I have to defend myself against an aggressive yob in the street; the advantage is with me, but lets presume my attacker has a hell of a right hook and gets lucky... I'm out; hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make. That even if you should win, and normally would win, doesn't mean you always will win. (btw first training of Krav Maga is to avoid a fight if you can anyways).
I agree that there is always the unpredictability in a fight, but you have to remember that this is Star Wars we are talking about here.

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Personally I don't like force storm; however in lightning terms; the reborn Palpatine uses a force lightning to destroy an entire load of space ships (very lame I know); however I don't see Revan toping that.
Why don't you like force storm jonathan? It is a powerful...erm...power. I would much rather see a stronger force lightning rather than force storm, though. Regardless, force storm is a strong power.
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I would say that Revan is more powerful than Vader but there margin by which is not that big. Vader also has people praising him in the novels post ROTJ. Some of Revan's praise (in fact a lot the praise from Canderous) has no affect on determining Revan's personal power such as Revan being called a great strategist. Than another you think have to look at is if the characters are showing personal bias towards a particular person.
Canderous was not the only one that 'praised' Revan, my friend. All throughout KotOR you hear about what Revan did, and how powerful he is. You even hear about him in KotOR II from people like Kreia, Atton, ect!
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I disagree here, Vader is the 'chosen' one and conceived by the Force itself, as such I cannot see how Revan would be more powerful than Vader in terms of force ability.
I agree. I don't think that many would even come close to Vader's force ablility/potential. He was the 'chosen one'. I don't think that Vader really reached all that he could be though...Revan on the other hand, I think that he might have.

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Old 07-03-2008, 06:53 PM   #126
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Canderous was not the only one that 'praised' Revan, my friend. All throughout KotOR you hear about what Revan did, and how powerful he is. You even hear about him in KotOR II from people like Kreia, Atton, ect!
I obviously know that but Canderous praises Revan every second he gets but 90% has nothing to do with his personal power but with his military prowess. My point is that you have separate the praise from bias and hyperbolic statements which Revan seems to suffer from such as being called the "heart of the force," the best thing you can take about the statement is that Revan is very strong in the force(especially coming from Kreia), stronger than most maybe but that alone doesn't make him unbeatable.

And for the record, the force storm that DE Sidious does is entirely different attack from the force storm Revan does, with no similarities to Revan's other than in name.
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:14 PM   #127
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I obviously know that but Canderous praises Revan every second he gets but 90% has nothing to do with his personal power but with his military prowess. My point is that you have separate the praise from bias and hyperbolic statements which Revan seems to suffer from such as being called the "heart of the force," the best thing you can take about the statement is that Revan is very strong in the force(especially coming from Kreia), stronger than most maybe but that alone doesn't make him unbeatable.
Maybe 50% of the time. He really starts 'praising' Revan after Revan figures out that he is Revan and tells everybody that he is Revan (boy that was a lot of 'Revans'...). I don't think that we hear that much about Darth Vader in 'non-bias' and 'hyperbolic statements'. We know that he is feared because he commonly chokes people to death. But that in itself is a bias because not everyone fears him. No one is unbeatable, my friend. Everyone dies eventually.

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Old 07-03-2008, 07:29 PM   #128
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I have seen it first-hand.
So have I... Generally in the Nihilus vs Revan thread

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I agree that there is always the unpredictability in a fight, but you have to remember that this is Star Wars we are talking about here.
Indeed - and this happens in Star Wars, if you review the different fights luck, seems to me to play a part in wins and defeats; take Yoda v Sidious as an example.

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Why don't you like force storm jonathan? It is a powerful...erm...power. I would much rather see a stronger force lightning rather than force storm, though. Regardless, force storm is a strong power.
Purely because I think Force Lighting should be as it appears in the movies especially RotJ; but that's purely me.

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Canderous was not the only one that 'praised' Revan, my friend. All throughout KotOR you hear about what Revan did, and how powerful he is. You even hear about him in KotOR II from people like Kreia, Atton, ect!
Revan was the most significant force user of his era.

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I agree. I don't think that many would even come close to Vader's force ablility/potential. He was the 'chosen one'. I don't think that Vader really reached all that he could be though...Revan on the other hand, I think that he might have.
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Maybe 50% of the time. He really starts 'praising' Revan after Revan figures out that he is Revan and tells everybody that he is Revan (boy that was a lot of 'Revans'...). I don't think that we hear that much about Darth Vader in 'non-bias' and 'hyperbolic statements'. We know that he is feared because he commonly chokes people to death. But that in itself is a bias because not everyone fears him. No one is unbeatable, my friend. Everyone dies eventually.
We don't hear too much about Vader, but in some ways you don't need to given, that pretty much every good guy in the OT is petrified of Vader, gives you an idea of how feared he was; why do people fear you? Because your powerful.

My 2 cents



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Old 07-03-2008, 07:40 PM   #129
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Agreed. It makes sense too, but I'm sure that some were not afraid of Vader.

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Old 07-03-2008, 07:56 PM   #130
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Agreed. It makes sense too, but I'm sure that some were not afraid of Vader.
Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't scared of him, but name another Character that isn't? Leia is defiant towards him ANH, but is scared of him by ESB.



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Old 07-03-2008, 07:58 PM   #131
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Maybe 50% of the time. He really starts 'praising' Revan after Revan figures out that he is Revan and tells everybody that he is Revan (boy that was a lot of 'Revans'...).
Um, I think you misunderstood what I might with the 90%. Way more than half of the time Revan is praised by Caderous it has nothing to do with Revan's personal power rather with his military prowess.



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I don't think that we hear that much about Darth Vader in 'non-bias' and 'hyperbolic statements'. We know that he is feared because he commonly chokes people to death.
They are probably lots of statements from the omniscient narrators(thus no in-universe character bias) in the star wars novels that make references to Vader's power. One of the most recent ones comes from the narrator in the Jedi Twilight novel which says

"There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor."


If you read the CW novel Shatterpoint it would make alot sense so I'll will try my best to explain it if you haven't. Basically Kar Vastor was huge force sensitive beast of man that Mace Windu "could not beat on his best day." The same Mace who had kicked Sidious's butt in lightsaber combat due to Vapaad admitted that Kar was more powerful than him.(note that Kar is not more powerful than Sidious) So any way you can take from this statement that Vader is out more powerful in the force than Mace. Like I said there are more statements out there but this was the most recent and I'm no Vader expert.

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No one is unbeatable, my friend. Everyone dies eventually.
Did I ever say that anyone was unbeatable?
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:01 PM   #132
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Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't scared of him, but name another Character that isn't? Leia is defiant towards him ANH, but is scared of him by ESB.
Off the top of my Fett was definitely not scared of Vader, neither was Xizor,the emperor obviously, and Tarkin wasn't.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:08 PM   #133
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Off the top of my Fett was definitely not scared of Vader, neither was Xizor,the emperor obviously, and Tarkin wasn't.
No, I don't think any of them are, however in context with my original statement;

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We don't hear too much about Vader, but in some ways you don't need to given, that pretty much every good guy in the OT is petrified of Vader, gives you an idea of how feared he was; why do people fear you? Because your powerful.



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Old 07-03-2008, 08:13 PM   #134
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Slight tip; use the "edit this" function (bottom right of your posts) to add things in, double posting is a sure fire way to grab a moderators unwanted attention

My bad, I usually don't forget to edit my posts, but it happens.

But yea they aren't too many good guys that aren't afraid of him, personally I don't think Han was afraid of Vader cause he is just Bad***. I'd imagine that the jedi he fights in the comics aren't afraid of him because they willingly fight him but you never know.
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:47 AM   #135
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Obi-Wan and Yoda aren't scared of him, but name another Character that isn't? Leia is defiant towards him ANH, but is scared of him by ESB.
Fett could be a good guy....

Han Solo, possibly Luke, The Rebellion. Plenty of people if you think about it...

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Old 07-09-2008, 03:01 PM   #136
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my top 10 sith would be...

Darth sidious
Darth vader
Darth bane
darth plagues
darth revan
count dooku
darth maul
darth rage
darth imperius
exar kun
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:13 PM   #137
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There is just no way to objectively "measure" Revan's power and compare it with other Jedi and Sith.

What we know is:
- Kotor and TSL convey Revan as an extraordinarily gifted individual.
- Revan is the individual with the greatest impact on the galaxy in the Kotor era

It's safe to assume Revan is very powerful.

right on the button there


.......
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:37 PM   #138
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my top 10 sith would be...

<snip>
darth rage
darth imperius
They don't exist, they are creations of the one who can't be named... (supershadow... ssh)

@ Lance: QFT


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Old 07-20-2008, 10:04 PM   #139
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Revan, though one of the best ,he is by no means the most powerful. Even forgetting the ancient sith that were mentioned (for they would put even Revan to shame it was said), he was a great stratagist, and very powerful in the force. I believe he was stronger than vader, even sidious, but I also believe there were others more powerful, take for example, the sith lord the chancellor palpatine told Anakin about, the one who could bring others to life. Maybe in battle revan would be surperior, but he definetly knew secrets of the dark side even revan didnt.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:46 PM   #140
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Revan, though one of the best ,he is by no means the most powerful. Even forgetting the ancient sith that were mentioned (for they would put even Revan to shame it was said), he was a great stratagist, and very powerful in the force. I believe he was stronger than vader, even sidious, but I also believe there were others more powerful, take for example, the sith lord the chancellor palpatine told Anakin about, the one who could bring others to life. Maybe in battle revan would be surperior, but he definetly knew secrets of the dark side even revan didnt.
I'm sure that he knew plenty.

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Old 07-21-2008, 12:37 PM   #141
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Oh dont get me wrong, I know REvan was powerful and knew many secrets of the dark side, anyone that has read the Darth Bane books(Path of destruction, is the first, cant remember the second >_<) knows that, as well as the Kotor and Tsl players, Im just saying that obviously there were things he didnt know.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:42 PM   #142
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knew many secrets of the dark side

Correction: Knew at least one so-called "secret of the dark side".


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Old 04-02-2009, 10:33 PM   #143
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Ehem it doesn't mater if he wass more powerful than vader, I say they were about the same. It maters if Revan could ovr power Starkiller (vaders seceret (Fanboy) Apprentice) I mean he could clear rooms with a cough, pluck a star destroyer out of the sky, only achievable by him and yoda. (maybe revan)
But Revan was a SITH LORD , vader was never said to be such. I mean malak wasn't a sith lord.. till he 'killed' revan *cough*no he didn't*cough* but then got beaten down by him, it doesn't mater if the Revan YOU played as it just makes people idiots over it. Revan in my vote is the revan you see in scenes where you sit there and think, "ya wow i'm glad it's doing this and not m, i couldn't even think of this" kind of stuff.
The only point where revan would bbe weaker than vader is the concentration of force. I mean Vader has every thing packed into his burnt up torso. (Grivious no powers becouse his 'accident') And we have to remember just becouse it waves around a light saber doesn't mean it's a Jedi .. i mean Mandos in various books have used one (on for trimming hedges =} but still using it). And besides Vader through Sidious off ... a plateform... to ... i don't even want to see the mess he maid when he splatered the ground.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:19 AM   #144
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Vader fled from Celeste Morne or I should say the Muur Talisman

Celeste was one of Revan's contemperaries and was able to keep that talisman in check. She vanished about six years before the start of KOTOR I. Celeste was one of the more powerful Jedi, but not as powerful as Revan. Vader? Well. Vader is a coward and that limits his power. Palpatine enjoys needless cruelities and that weakens his power. Say what you want about Revan, but being a coward isn't one of them. Revan was also very pragmatic which gives him more strength than Palpatine.

Was Revan or Palpatine the greatest Sith ever? Nope. That goes to King Adas and thanks to Exar Kun, the Sith species is extinct. Adas was dead before the Great Schisim that first split the Jedi Order and had Dark Jedi land on Korriban and enslave the Sith people. Thus, Adas never knew of those corrupted Jedi teachings.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:16 PM   #145
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I'm sure Revan was probably the most powerful Jedi I've heard of. Although I could be wrong, and I know people are going to argue against me.
Each Dark Jedi and Jedi alike, each have their own strengths, Revans being his military smartness, and possibly his skill in both force and lightsaber combat.
I personally think Revan could kick Vaders, Sidious, Grevious', Mauls, Malaks and Bastilas asses at the same time. Cause he's awesome like that
And Starkiller don't stand a chance against Revans power
Starkiller was indeed powerful, although not as powerful as many, but Revan knew many dark and, sometimes, terrible things about the dark side, having discovered them on his journeys to discover the Star Forge

The only person I think that could stand a change against Revan is POSSIBLY Yoda
Yoda is strong in the force and all, but, really, he's old, and he doesn't have the strength of many other jedi in battle.
Darth Caedus was pretty powerful as well, he could manipulate the past using the Foce.
Even Kreia herself said that looking at him was like looking into the heart of the Force.
You can't deny that he was extremely powerful.
More powerful than Vader, definately.
Vader wasn't that strong, really

By the way, does anyone know a link to a list of Metachlorian counts? (sorry if I spelt that wrong)

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Old 04-05-2009, 11:32 PM   #146
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On Revan, his raw power was certainly great, but not as much as Anakin. Probably closer to Sidious. Also, it's important to note that Revan was equal as powerful in the "Dark Side" as in the "Light Side".

Now, if Revan faced Anakin Skywalker, I have no doubt that Revan would easily defeat Anakin. Raw power is nothing if you don't have the willpower to back it up. Revan knew far more many techniques and forms, and was a whole lot brighter. Against Sidious is another story. Their potential is probably on the same level, but Sidious is like Kreia/Traya in that he doesn't outdo his opponents but weakens them with his powers. Starkiller is the same as Anakin, as well as Darth Caedus. Cade Skywalker, I'm not so sure. Cade is far smarter than he appears. Kreia, same as Sidious. Bane would be about equal in a fight, but of course no match in war strategy.

Think of Force potential as ammo and wilpower as the gun. Revan has a pretty big gun and plenty of ammo. Anakin has hundreds of ammo crates but has a six-barrel gun.

Now, greatest Jedi? No, Revan will always be famous as either one of the greatest Grey Jedi or Sith (depending on whether you believe he "fell" or took on a new mask). That honor goes to Nomi Sunrider or Luke Skywalker.


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Old 04-06-2009, 04:11 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by kingoftheabyss View Post
Revan has always been my favirote character in Star Wars and I've always stuck to my belief that he was one of the most powerfull Force Users in Star Wars history.


Im curious as too how other people view Revan's Force Power/Potential.

I've always considered him to be about as powerfull as Dath Vader...
you got to be kidding me Darth Vader was a cripple while Lord Vader wasn't


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Old 04-06-2009, 07:02 PM   #148
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In reality, anyone who features in EP I-VI are faster, stronger, better, more Powerful etc than any EU character or EU version of a movie Character, Regardless of what they do or achieve, or appear to do or achieve... Thats the nature of G-canon vs C canon.

I'd roughly list the top 10 as...

Darth Sidious
Yoda
Luke Skywalker
Anakin/Vader
Revan
Jacen Solo
Mace Windu
Darth Tyranus
Malak
Obi-wan Kenobi

Obviously theres hundreds of Sith and Jedi, but a lot will be around the same level...
I agree with this list, only slightly different:

Darth Sidious
Yoda
Anakin/Vader
Luke Skywalker [ROTJ]
Revan
Mace Windu
Jacen Solo
Kyp Durron
Obi-wan Kenobi
Malak

I'd put Vader of Luke in ROTJ, frankly, because it seems about right. However, at the time when Luke took out Shimra I'd say him and his father were about even.

I moved Jacen down mainly because he definitely isn't as powerful as Windu. Maybe in alternative uses of the force, but not in combat.

Obi-Wan over Malak mainly because he could take out the #3 most powerful Jedi in his prime.

And Dooku? Come on, Kyp could take him out in a second.

But I agree with what was said earlier, this argument comes up way to awesome with the "Reven vs. x" threads.

Also, with that "Reven Was good With Foresight" stuff, if that's so true, how did Malak manage to blindside him so easily?


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Old 04-06-2009, 07:40 PM   #149
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I wouldn't say Revan is the most powerful, but he is more well rounded than the others.

Leader, teacher, mechanic(built HK-47), tactician, Jedi, Sith

It is his skills and abilities without the Force that boost how dangerous he is. However, even in skills there are those who dwarf him.

Bao-Dur for example is probably the most skilled character mentioned so far. He designed and built the Mass Shadow Generators by himself. He built the Remote and was able to upgrade T3-M4, G0-T0, and HK-47. The destruction of Malachor V could not have happened without Bao-Dur. Does that make him as powerful as the others? No. It's just his skill.

Those lists seemed to have ignored Nilhus and the Exile, but those two are in a seperate classification at any rate. They are oppisite of the standard Jedi/Sith. The Exile is supposed to have every lightsaber and force form.

Jedi/Sith would be using a sun for their power
Nilhus and the Exile are using a black hole for their power.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:59 PM   #150
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Im probably going to hate myself for replying later on but there is points that I disagree with.
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Originally Posted by Fiestainabox View Post
I agree with this list, only slightly different:

Darth Sidious
Yoda
Anakin/Vader
Luke Skywalker [ROTJ]
Revan
Mace Windu
Jacen Solo
Kyp Durron
Obi-wan Kenobi
Malak

I'd put Vader of Luke in ROTJ, frankly, because it seems about right. However, at the time when Luke took out Shimra I'd say him and his father were about even.
ROTJ Luke is far from being on this list imo. He has barely any training whatsoever compared to others that would be on this list,his "defeat" of Vader did have some circumstances around it. DE Luke and beyond imo is one of the most powerful jedi ever(the time he surpassed Yoda could vary since authors seem write luke differently) but by LOTF i dont think anyone could take him 1v1.

Quote:
I moved Jacen down mainly because he definitely isn't as powerful as Windu. Maybe in alternative uses of the force, but not in combat.
I disagree here by LOTF Jacen/Caedus is a beast Some of his powers that he could use in one on one combat (both directly and indirectly) are force lightning(even with one arm),shatterpoint, he can create illusions,tk and force speed (he was described to move as a blur vs luke in inferno),force "stun/paralyze",hiding in the force especially if the terrain allows you to lose track of your opponent (ex. ESB), he can apparently sever one's connection to the force, he can also play mindtricks and put commands into people's head(even force users like he did to aurra sing), and all of this is not even taking into account his experience,strategy in battle, his remarkable tolerance for pain and use of unarmed combat.

Quote:
Obi-Wan over Malak mainly because he could take out the #3 most powerful Jedi in his prime.
While Obiwan is certainly one of the best swordsman(the best at soresu imo) in sw, i dont think his "strength" in the force is enough to handle people like Bane,Caedus,Marek,,Dooku(look what happened to him in ROTS),Kyp,etc. When looking at his victory over Pre Suit Vader/Anakin, you have to take into the following factors: terrain certainly played a role, the fact that he and Anakin knew each others style inside and out and that Anakin wasn't exactly rational in that duel. I'm not trying to take away from his victory because based on their actions, he deserved the win and Anakin deserved to lose but I simply dont have faith in his force abilites.

I would hesitate to put Anakin Skywalker (his "peak" before he became Vader was ROTS) on that list for the same reason as Obiwan because while unlike Obiwan he has A LOT of raw power he hasn't mastered it yet which would hurt him too vs powerful force users.

My personal list(in no particular order) of the most powerful jedi/sith users(lightsaber skill and "power" in the force and when making this type of list,you also have to also take into account noncombat use of the force as well) would include

Sidious
Luke
Bane
Nihilus
Caedus/Jacen
Yoda
Mace
Kyp
Exar Kun
Kyle Katarn
Vader
Marek

My list could change, i left out most of the kotor characters(Revan in particular) save for Nihilus because they dont have the feats that we can accurately look at since most of them are based on gameplay. If more information was out there my list would/might include,Ragnos,Nadd and maybe other ancient sith and jedi.
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Old 04-06-2009, 08:53 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
ROTJ Luke is far from being on this list imo. He has barely any training whatsoever compared to others that would be on this list,his "defeat" of Vader did have some circumstances around it. DE Luke and beyond imo is one of the most powerful jedi ever(the time he surpassed Yoda could vary since authors seem write luke differently) but by LOTF i dont think anyone could take him 1v1.
Actually, that makes a lot of sense, I'd have to say I agree with that.


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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
I disagree here by LOTF Jacen/Caedus is a beast Some of his powers that he could use in one on one combat (both directly and indirectly) are force lightning(even with one arm),shatterpoint, he can create illusions,tk and force speed (he was described to move as a blur vs luke in inferno),force "stun/paralyze",hiding in the force especially if the terrain allows you to lose track of your opponent (ex. ESB), he can apparently sever one's connection to the force, he can also play mindtricks and put commands into people's head(even force users like he did to aurra sing), and all of this is not even taking into account his experience,strategy in battle, his remarkable tolerance for pain and use of unarmed combat.
I still have to say I disagree, Caedus wasn't really much of a fighter in the first place, he barely beat Mara, and only did it because he pulled a "cheap shot" through the force.

He's powerful yes, but he's definitely not as good as "Take-an-entire-army-of-droids-out-and-smash-there-big-smasher-thing-all-without-saying-a-word-or-breaking-a-sweat Windu"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
While Obiwan is certainly one of the best swordsman(the best at soresu imo) in sw, i dont think his "strength" in the force is enough to handle people like Bane,Caedus,Marek,,Dooku(look what happened to him in ROTS),Kyp,etc. When looking at his victory over Pre Suit Vader/Anakin, you have to take into the following factors: terrain certainly played a role, the fact that he and Anakin knew each others style inside and out and that Anakin wasn't exactly rational in that duel. I'm not trying to take away from his victory because based on their actions, he deserved the win and Anakin deserved to lose but I simply dont have faith in his force abilites.
I Agreed that Vader wasn't tottally rational, but he's packed full of Emotion (Similar to Caedus vs. Mara), which is pretty much one of the key parts of being a Sith. That would have granted him tonnes of power.
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
Nihilus
I totally forgot about him, he's definitely on that list, someone who can hold together an entire ship with his hate would have to be a pretty powerful guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
Marek
I know his sounds weird, but I feel TFU seriously over-exaggerated his powers, like yeah, he's was super powerful, but so was Sidous, and he wasn't running around throwing force pushes like pies.

I wouldn't count him as being powerful, mainly because he wasn't powerful because he was, well, powerful, but because the TFU Development team needed him to be.


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Old 04-06-2009, 09:22 PM   #152
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I still have to say I disagree, Caedus wasn't really much of a fighter in the first place, he barely beat Mara, and only did it because he pulled a "cheap shot" through the force.
It's been a while since I read Sacrifice but

We also have to take into account that Mara A) chose the location of the fight, which allowed to her have initial sneak attack, create traps(with the the plate so she would know when he getting close to her) When looking at the setting you would have to take into account that it was narrow so it made it hard for him to use his saber, while Mara was armed with a blaster,shoto and vibroblades. It was more of a brawl then a duel. Mara was better prepared for that fight, the wookieepedia page of the fight is pretty decent.

Mara also admits that his powers are beyond hers. His duels with LOTF Luke,Katarn and the other jedi in the ambush even his two with Jaina (in which she numerous advantages both times) show he is a force to be reckoned with imo.

Quote:
He's powerful yes, but he's definitely not as good as "Take-an-entire-army-of-droids-out-and-smash-there-big-smasher-thing-all-without-saying-a-word-or-breaking-a-sweat Windu"
Meh, I'm cautious when looking at the original CW cartoon since everyone is overpowered, plus in that particular battle with the army of droids there is a scene when Mace is surrounded by super battle droids and only the ones in front of him fire yet the ones in the back just stand there and don't do anything. But Windu was definitely badass in the shatterpoint novel.

I'm just not sure if he has enough since one of his 2 main advantages-shatterpoint is negated since Caedus possesses the same ability. Mace's real advantage is Vapaad. But Caedus can take more wounds/pain then any force user (save Sion) and continue to fight so imo a saber duel could go either way but I'd might lean toward Mace ever so slightly due to Vapaad. A strict force battle, i'd give to Caedus.

To me this is one those ABC situations where Mace has the advantage over a darksider but if Caedus were to face another lightsider more powerful them Mace,I would think he would fair better then Windu.

Quote:
I totally forgot about him, he's definitely on that list, someone who can hold together an entire ship with his hate would have to be a pretty powerful guy.
Don't forget what he single-handedly wiped out all life on a planet save Visas.



On topic: Revan is certainly very powerful who appears to have a broad knowledge and has access to techniques that other force users particularly jedi might not be familiar with. The only problem I have with putting in a top 5 or 10 list is that lot his combat feats are gameplay related so its hard to judge them and the one's that we do know from his DLOTS reign and beforehand are described in great detail.

EDIT:
Quote:
I know his sounds weird, but I feel TFU seriously over-exaggerated his powers, like yeah, he's was super powerful, but so was Sidous, and he wasn't running around throwing force pushes like pies.

I wouldn't count him as being powerful, mainly because he wasn't powerful because he was, well, powerful, but because the TFU Development team needed him to be.
I would judge him by the novel not the game though I really can't say much since I havent read it yet but I know it was made clear in the sw databank that:
As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.

So while he was over powered which he have to accept they did put limits on it in the novel which some Revan fanboys dont have since Revan=god of kotor. and Marek ends up dead.

Last edited by Darth Hord; 04-06-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:38 PM   #153
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I would say that Revan could pwn all. In my own opinion, He might be matched with Starkiller. Have you seen the Force Storm that he uses?!? Man, I took out three rancors with that!!
Revan would pwn Starkiller in a chess game, but Starkiller might atleast come to a draw in dueling.
but the top Jedi/Sith of all time would be:
Revan (lets face it, he was smart and strong.)
Exile (Like Revan, just not as tactical)
Vader ( He'd lose to Revan, he can't stand up to a force lightning thanks to his robotic arms, so he'd probably short out and just be stuck standing there.)
Sidious ( He lost to a man who he should have seen turning on him)
Caedus ( He's just this low because I haven't read his story, so I wouldn't know the extent of his power.)


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Old 04-06-2009, 09:38 PM   #154
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On topic: Revan is certainly very powerful who appears to have a broad knowledge and has access to techniques that other force users particularly jedi might not be familiar with. The only problem I have with putting in a top 5 or 10 list is that lot his combat feats are gameplay related so its hard to judge them and the one's that we do know from his DLOTS reign and beforehand are described in great detail.
I meant to say his pre kotor1 feats aren't described in a great detail. I think he would have some sort advantage over the jedi from the "New Sith wars" era and later since he probably knew different offensive techniques that the sith of Kaan's brotherhood didn't know and subsequently the jedi would have trouble defending against an unknown technique.
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