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Old 04-07-2009, 12:56 PM   #1
GarfieldJL
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Do Liberals think they are above the Law?

Do liberals particularly liberals in government think they are above the law?

Seriously, has anyone else looked at Obama's cabinet members aside from me...

We have several members of the cabinet whom didn't pay their taxes including the new head of the IRS.

Quote:
The Senate Finance Committee has been looking into Geithner — it has to vote on his appointment — and discovered something else.

According to Gordon and Parnes: “In addition, Geithner included payments to overnight camps in calculating his dependent child care credit in 2001, 2004 and 2005. His accountant informed him in 2006 that the camps were not allowable expenses. The committee notes that Geithner did not file amended returns to fix the mistake.”

Can I get this deal? Can I ignore my accountant? He is always telling me that my trips to Vegas are not allowable under “necessary mental health expenses” and, fool that I am, I keep listening to him.
--politico.com

Then we have Ron Kirk
Quote:
A White House official called it a "matter of record-keeping," arguing that just because Kirk couldn't come up with documentation for every game since 2005 doesn't mean he hadn't taken clients.

But Norm Lofgren, a partner at Looper Reed & McGraw law firm in Dallas and a former IRS trial attorney, said that being able to substantiate only 57 percent of claimed expenses "suggests carelessness in his business record-keeping. The question is why. Mayor Kirk is an experienced lawyer who undoubtedly knows the specific substantiation rules for entertainment."
-- Dallas News


I'm not going to get into all the members of the cabinet with tax problems in this post, but seriously, we have the peopel that are lecturing us about paying taxes, not paying their own taxes.

Seriously, I don't see why these people aren't in jail like anyone else with this kind of issue...
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:06 PM   #2
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Are you sure that this is Liberals thinking they are above the law, and not Conservatives thinking Liberals are above the law?






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Old 04-07-2009, 01:13 PM   #3
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Let's examine the last 8 years of Karl Rove's shennanigans before we start pointing fingers at an administration less than 100 days old...

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Old 04-07-2009, 02:03 PM   #4
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I would suggest a thread title change to "Do politicians think that they are above the law?"


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker

Last edited by Q; 04-07-2009 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by RoxStar View Post
Let's examine the last 8 years of Karl Rove's shennanigans before we start pointing fingers at an administration less than 100 days old...
Do we have to limit ourselves to Rove?
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
I would suggest a thread title to "Do politicians think that they are above the law?"
Generally if it was a Republican not paying their taxes the mainstream media would be calling for their head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxStar
Let's examine the last 8 years of Karl Rove's shennanigans before we start pointing fingers at an administration less than 100 days old...
Do you have something aside from the leftwing conspiracy theories that Rove was responsible for everything that is wrong in the world today... The only accusations about Rove doing things illegal came from DNC smear merchants thus far, granted I don't particularly care for some of the stunts Rove pulled, but as far as I know he didn't do anything illegal.
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Do we have to limit ourselves to Rove?
Why, were there others?



Leaking a CIA operativeís name to the media is illegal. The difference is Karl Rove didnít think he was above the law, he knew it.
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Generally if it was a Republican not paying their taxes the mainstream media would be calling for their head.
You keep saying this, or variations of it, but i've yet to discover what it actually means.






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Old 04-07-2009, 03:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The only accusations about Rove doing things illegal came from DNC smear merchants thus far, granted I don't particularly care for some of the stunts Rove pulled, but as far as I know he didn't do anything illegal.
Let's not forget that Rove stored White House documents on a third-party RNC server, which is essentially illegal for the following reasons:

1) A government official using government resources for political purposes, under the Hatch Act of 1929.

2) Not preserving presidential records for eventual archival, as stated by the Presidential Records Act of 1978.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032601979.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...stigate24.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...19467820070413
http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1362
http://www.osc.gov/hatchact.htm
http://www.archives.gov/about/laws/p...l-records.html

That should do it for now; Feel free to ask for more of Rove's nefarious practices.
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Leaking a CIA operativeís name to the media is illegal. The difference is Karl Rove didnít think he was above the law, he knew it.
mimartin, Rove wasn't the one that leaked the CIA operative's name to the media, an investigation proved that much.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Aug. 29 ó Richard L. Armitage, a former deputy secretary of state, has acknowledged that he was the person whose conversation with a columnist in 2003 prompted a long, politically laden criminal investigation in what became known as the C.I.A. leak case, a lawyer involved in the case said on Tuesday.
--New York Times

If I can find a source that had every motive to smear the Bush Administration admitting it wasn't Rove, then odds are it wasn't Carl Rove. Mr. Armitage was under Colin Powel.


Also wasn't one of the people complaining about the attorneys the same person that called for one of the attorneys to be fired in the first place.

Furthermore:
Quote:
The broadcast network evening newscasts, which didn't care in 1993 about the Clinton administration's decision to ask for the resignation of all 93 U.S. attorneys, went apoplectic Tuesday night in leading with the "controversy," fed by the media, over the Bush administration for replacing eight U.S. attorneys in late 2006 -- nearly two years after rejecting the idea of following the Clinton policy of replacing all the attorneys. Anchor Charles Gibson promised that ABC would "look at all the angles tonight," but he skipped the Clinton comparison. Gibson teased: "New controversy at the White House after a string of U.S. attorneys is fired under questionable circumstances. There are calls for the Attorney General to resign."
--Media Research Center

Last edited by GarfieldJL; 04-07-2009 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Source
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:42 PM   #11
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

Does this thread even have a point, or is this just more of your hate speech?

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Old 04-07-2009, 09:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
I would suggest a thread title change to "Do politicians think that they are above the law?"
QFE.

It's a bipartisan problem.

And each side will always see the media as ignoring the worst outrages of their opponents.

Now that Democrats (AKA: liberals) have the power, the Limbaugh-ites will have a field-day for the next 4 years (at least) working themselves into a froth over every little infraction (or perceived infraction) in a way unseen since the height of the Clinton administration. Which, I seem to remember, most of his administration was often accused of similar issues (all the way up to murder) by the usual suspects.

I don't pay super-close attention to the news that much these days, and I certainly don't subscribe to conservative-leaning media (my souces for current info being mostly: PBS, Slate, and the Boston Globe,) but I HAVE heard all about the tax issues with some of the Obama cabinet members.

So therefore: If I know something about it, then some "liberal mainstream media" outlets must have covered it at some point.

The insistence from the O.P. that he might be the only one paying attention to it doesn't quite pan out. (It could be that most people just don't care as much about it as you do, Gar. That might be far more difficult to refute.)

Should they be kicked out of the cabinet? Eh... I personally don't think so. If we were to wait for someone who has been around a long time in the political sphere, and experienced enough to be an effective senior cabinet member who has absolutely NO squirrely marks in their personal, business, or political history,.. then I fully expect the entire term would pass by with none of the seats ever being filled.


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Last edited by edlib; 04-08-2009 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
I'm not going to get into all the members of the cabinet with tax problems in this post, but seriously, we have the peopel that are lecturing us about paying taxes, not paying their own taxes.
A better question for discussion would be why is it when the republicans, right-wingnuts, and theocons are up to shady dealings, criminal behavior, and negligence, their supporters turn blind eye. But when the good-guys take office (and Obama *is* the good-guy), suddenly all faults are noticed and bitched about?

For instance:

How Tax Cheats Are Using Your Money to Fund Republicans
Quote:
"Swift Boat" financier Sam Wyly cheated the U.S. of at least $300 million in taxes." And, "The money that paid for the "Swift Boat" campaign was your money!" [...] Wyly did his cheating through an offshore scheme that hid $1 billion in profits via Isle of Man "shell companies" that existed only on paper, were registered under front men to hide the Wylys' names, and were used to carry out transactions and launder money. And that's only the hidden income that was found. The Dallas mogul, with a $1 billion admitted net worth, may be guilty of the biggest personal tax fraud in U.S. history.
Former Executive Director of Asbury Park Housing Authority Pleads Guilty in Corruption
Quote:
Executive director of the Asbury Park Housing Authority, Republican Kenneth E. Nixon, Jr., pleaded guilty to federal tax fraud,
admitting his participation in a scheme to regain his $80,000 a year position after he was dismissed in 1995 for mismanagement. Nixon died awaiting sentence.

Two plead guilty in $11M mortgage fraud
Quote:
Republican John Beaird, who campaigned for Texas state Rep., pleaded guilty to an $11 million mortgage fraud scheme. He was
sentenced to five years in prison and ordered to pay $465,000 in restitution. An FBI investigation that showed Beaird was engaged in at least 39 fraudulent transactions and obtained more than $11 million in loan proceeds for himself and the nominal borrowers.
At least these guys went to jail, right? (well, each except Wylie).

Then consider:

Feds: Renzi made $700,000-plus in deal that led to indictment
Quote:
[P]rosecutors said Renzi conspired with Sandlin to conduct a land swap in exchange for the congressman's push to get a House committee's approval for the deal. [...] Renzi received $733,000 in the deal but did not disclose the income to Congress in his 2005 financial disclosure statement.

Harris didn't tell all about donations
Quote:
It's not the first time the Longboat Key Republican has had to defend herself for accepting illegal contributions from a company. In 1994, while running for the state Senate, Harris collected $30,000 from a Sarasota company called Riscorp, which like MZM was investigated for violating campaign laws.
Wade paid a hefty fine. Harris? Nada.

What I did, admittedly, was begin with a conclusion that republicans/conservatives are dicks and tailored a google search just for that. I started with a pre-conceived conclusion and only sought that data which are supportive, which I displayed here. The truth is, politicians -in general- are dicks. They'll take advantage of their constituents whenever and wherever they can. There's no more or less reporting or interest in their behavior by the so-called "liberal media" (whatever that means -I suppose "that media which isn't Faux News").

So the real question is, why do democrats and republicans / liberals and conservatives only notice the wrong-doings of their counter-parts? Why are voters and would-be pundits so willing to overlook the indecency, immorality, and irrationality of the the party they're more likely to vote for?

This is an illogical and irrational way to manage the government that is under the power of the people, but the answer, in my opinion, is that many (if not most) people lack critical thinking skills.


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Old 04-08-2009, 02:03 AM   #14
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Well-said, Skin.

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Old 04-08-2009, 04:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Why, were there others?
I hate you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Leaking a CIA operative’s name to the media is illegal. The difference is Karl Rove didn’t think he was above the law, he knew it.
Tsk, tsk, good sir. Our fine, upstanding justice system says that one "Scooter" Libby is the man responsible for that.

Now pardon me while I try to slit my wrists with a mousepad for having to defend Karl Rove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
theocons
Ooo. New word. Thank you.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Tsk, tsk, good sir. Our fine, upstanding justice system says that one "Scooter" Libby is the man responsible for that.
Wait does that mean there was more than one conservative in the Bush Administration that thought he/she was above the law? I’m shocked; Rove, Libby, Allen, Andell, Crawford, Doyle, Griles, Korsmo, Safavian and Stillwell all must have been closet liberals.

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Old 04-08-2009, 12:21 PM   #17
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In all fairness to Garfy's point, the Bush admin did what it could to actually change the law so that the completely wrong **** they were doing wouldn't actually be illegal. So technically they weren't above the law that much.

Also see: signing statements
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:41 AM   #18
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@ thread title: :migrane:

I admire your spirit garf. I really do, however, throwing stones in a glass house isn't wise considering there are more libs here. No points off for your guts, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur View Post
I would suggest a thread title change to "Do politicians think that they are above the law?"
QFE.

Damn...you are a pretty reasonable guy, Q. You know that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Generally if it was a Republican not paying their taxes the mainstream media would be calling for their head.



Do you have something aside from the leftwing conspiracy theories that Rove was responsible for everything that is wrong in the world today... The only accusations about Rove doing things illegal came from DNC smear merchants thus far, granted I don't particularly care for some of the stunts Rove pulled, but as far as I know he didn't do anything illegal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
You keep saying this, or variations of it, but i've yet to discover what it actually means.
I'm more responding to this in general:
Basically, the way things are with the media is that politicians on the right *do* tend to get ridiculed more for the exact same crime than politicians on the left. In all 'fairness' (pun intended) it depends on the source. Since the left holds the landslide field advantage in the country (at least on TV, anyways), it is prone this way.

I.E. Clinton and Lewinsky went over lightly with the news companies and lasted a relatively short duration in the headlines compared to what it would have been if that had been Bush and Lewinsky. It would have lastewd ad nauseum for months.

I suspect you know this (or something like it), though.

I considered in highschool going into media broadcasting, and actually you do get lessons in how to "shape your research" so that you "convey your expertly crafted message with your unique perspective". Why did I turn away? ...Something about how most people in media (period) "smell" in a certain sense of the term. Not kosher, to say the least.

That and I watched how perfectly normal friends in near grades ahead of me went off to film school, then came back as cocaine addicted messes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edlib View Post
QFE.

It's a bipartisan problem.

And each side will always see the media as ignoring the worst outrages of their opponents.
Regardless how slanted for or against their side it actually is. However, I thought research was inherently biased by virtue that it takes a side of an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
*Brevity*==>

What I did, admittedly, was begin with a conclusion that republicans/conservatives are dicks and tailored a google search just for that. I started with a pre-conceived conclusion and only sought that data which are supportive, which I displayed here. The truth is, politicians -in general- are dicks.
Well even if I disagree with your politics, I do applaud your eventual frankness.
<snip>
Quote:
So the real question is, why do democrats and republicans / liberals and conservatives only notice the wrong-doings of their counter-parts? Why are voters and would-be pundits so willing to overlook the indecency, immorality, and irrationality of the the party they're more likely to vote for?
No humility. I mean, come on--politics is points of view. It's all about the blame game. However, I don't "blame" anyone for calling it what it is: BULL****. (--In fact I encourage it! ) It often times muddies-up/waters-down what I believe to be true American ideals.

<sigh> What many could stand to benefit learning a few Shaolin principles. But I'm dreaming.

Quote:
This is an illogical and irrational way to manage the government that is under the power of the people, but the answer, in my opinion, is that many (if not most) people lack critical thinking skills.
Many (if not most) on all sides, and I'll agree with you on that.


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Old 04-09-2009, 08:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
But when the good-guys take office (and Obama *is* the good-guy), suddenly all faults are noticed and bitched about?
Sorry, man, the bit about BO=good guy too rich to pass up. Probably for the reason that paybacks are a bitch.

Quote:
What I did, admittedly, was begin with a conclusion that republicans/conservatives are dicks and tailored a google search just for that. I started with a pre-conceived conclusion and only sought that data which are supportive, which I displayed here. The truth is, politicians -in general- are dicks. They'll take advantage of their constituents whenever and wherever they can. There's no more or less reporting or interest in their behavior by the so-called "liberal media" (whatever that means -I suppose "that media which isn't Faux News").
Do you really mean to suggest that you believe there is ONLY bias at "right-wing" news sources?

Quote:
So the real question is, why do democrats and republicans / liberals and conservatives only notice the wrong-doings of their counter-parts? Why are voters and would-be pundits so willing to overlook the indecency, immorality, and irrationality of the the party they're more likely to vote for?

This is an illogical and irrational way to manage the government that is under the power of the people, but the answer, in my opinion, is that many (if not most) people lack critical thinking skills.
On this we are basically in agreement.


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Old 04-09-2009, 11:13 PM   #20
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Sorry, man, the bit about BO=good guy too rich to pass up. Probably for the reason that paybacks are a bitch.
Seriously, I agree with you and about choked when I saw that line. The idea that a typical Chicago Politician with his radical views and associations is some sort of saint would be hilarious he (SkinWalker) wasn't being serious.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Do you really mean to suggest that you believe there is ONLY bias at "right-wing" news sources?
I'll go a step further and say at least the right wing sources, source their information and don't plagerize other people's work. (See Incident involving New York Times or was it TIME Magazine...)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
On this we are basically in agreement.
See Senator John McCain, there are a few Republicans that do go after other Republicans when they do something unethical. Other than that I can partially agree, but not entirely.

@ SkinWalker
I will go a step further and point out at least Republicans tend to have the courtesy to resign from office if they are actually guilty of something and get caught.

As for your (and other people's) statements about members of the Bush Administration, seriously some of the sources you are using have a worse track record than a sleezy used car salesman.

It is a fact that Carl Rove wasn't the source of the leak, and Federal Prosecutors serve at the pleasure of the President.


And seriously you guys claim Bush was dumber than a box of rocks, then you claim he is some ulitimate evil with a devious plot to take over the world. That kinda contradicts itself, you can't have it both ways.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
... a typical Chicago Politician with his radical views and associations is some sort of saint ...
Saints are fictive designations created by the superstitious. I used no such moniker nor do I believe your current President is without fault. Your comment, however, represents the usual ideological rhetoric and hyperbole used by political junkies who limit their ability to think critically vis-ŗ-vis their preconceived conclusions. An irrational mode of thought.

Quote:
@ SkinWalker
I will go a step further and point out at least Republicans tend to have the courtesy to resign from office if they are actually guilty of something and get caught.
Again, more preconceived conclusions to which you only seek that data which are supportive. I can easily to examples of the null hypothesis by simply tailoring my observation and arrive at the same irrational outcome as you. I've already demonstrated this. One begins to see Nyborg's conclusions manifest clearer and clearer.

Quote:
As for your (and other people's) statements about members of the Bush Administration, seriously some of the sources you are using have a worse track record than a sleezy used car salesman.
yawn. More irrational, simple, and baseless ideological rhetoric. The "it must be so because I believe it to be" fallacy. yawn... again.

Quote:
It is a fact that Carl Rove wasn't the source of the leak, and Federal Prosecutors serve at the pleasure of the President.
Who gives a ****? Really. Moreover, an honest rebuttal would include the full data, i.e. who it was that actually did commit this form of treason. I notice you avoid this data. Almost as if it doesn't exist. Almost as if it doesn't fit the conclusions you already have and thus.... wish it away.

Quote:
And seriously you guys claim Bush was dumber than a box of rocks, then you claim he is some ulitimate evil with a devious plot to take over the world. That kinda contradicts itself, you can't have it both ways.
Again, preconceived conclusions to which you only seek that data...

Also, you're creating a strawman since it's easier for you to defeat an argument that has a flaw (i.e. the one you create in your head and appear to share some irrational belief that this is an argument held by someone here).

The alleged flaw is that it takes a highly intelligent person to be evil. The obvious problem with your strawman is that this isn't scientifically sound. But, please, cite the data which are supportive of this hypothesis. I've very curious to see it.

The not-so-obvious problem with your strawman is that very few people actually argue that Bush is both deficit in intelligence and an "evil master-mind." Indeed, I can't recall anyone here making that argument. What I do recall, when the "dumb ass a box of rocks" Bush was starting a war with a sovereign nation in 2003, it was argued in this very forum that he was not intelligent and that he was surrounded with greedy, bad, no-good, immoral and shady advisors and cabinet. I don't recall anyone referring to him as an "ultimate evil."

Please. Try to make some rational arguments that are cogent and sound.


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Old 04-10-2009, 12:10 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Who gives a ****? Really. Moreover, an honest rebuttal would include the full data, i.e. who it was that actually did commit this form of treason. I notice you avoid this data. Almost as if it doesn't exist. Almost as if it doesn't fit the conclusions you already have and thus.... wish it away.
Just who do you believe did it, then? We all know that Libby took the fall/was thrown under the bus. I've heard and read the source of Plame's exposure was Richard Armitage, Powel's buddy at State. Still highly debatable about whether it really constituted "treason", though.


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Old 04-10-2009, 12:24 AM   #23
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Deniable, perhaps. Debatable? Not really. The answer is clear: it came from Cheney's office -whether it was Libby or not is irrelevant. And it seems pretty clear he was the guy. Beyond a reasonable doubt clear.


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Old 04-10-2009, 12:34 AM   #24
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And seriously you guys claim Bush was dumber than a box of rocks, then you claim he is some ulitimate evil with a devious plot to take over the world. That kinda contradicts itself, you can't have it both ways.
Bush is dumber than a box of rocks. The small army of people that he put in key roles around him (and who have been in Washington for the last 30 years) aren't. Morally questionable ideologues, yes. Idiots, no.

The only way it would be "trying to have it both ways" is if your strawman was not a strawman.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:43 AM   #25
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Seriously, Skin, if it's deniable (not simply in the sense of yes it is--no it isn't back and forthing), it's VERY debatable. If it were as straightforward as you claim, you wouldn't need to couch it as "seems". Also, as Armitage later came out and admitted he was the source (after Libby's trial), it's not "beyond a reasonable doubt clear" at all. Seems to me that you're violating your own observation about critical thinking skills in action. Face it, they were gunning for Cheney or Rove and accepted Scooter as a consolation prize in lieu of the other two.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/p...itzgerald-knew


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

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How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:46 AM   #26
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I'd have to care a bit more about politics to be willing to debate it. The justice system did it's job. That's good enough for me.


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Old 04-10-2009, 01:10 AM   #27
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I agree that the court system did it's job, but I don't know that justice was served. Even if I did accept that it was all Libby, all the time his sentence was commuted. Probation and a (very hefty) fine hardly seem like retribution for putting a woman's life in danger and ruining her career. Not to mention breaking the law.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:10 AM   #28
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That's fine skin. It also reeks of intellectual dishonesty.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:15 AM   #29
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That's fine skin. It also reeks of intellectual dishonesty.
LOL... I'm sure you'll find someone here that wants to debate it with you. I just don't like politics enough to both with it. Good luck with it. Sounds like a shadow-boxing match to me, though.


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Old 04-10-2009, 01:27 AM   #30
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I don't believe there's anything to debate here, though. I took you at your word that you don't want to "debate" politics, especially when you're wrong.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:12 AM   #31
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LOL... I'm sure you'll find someone here that wants to debate it with you. I just don't like politics enough to both with it. Good luck with it. Sounds like a shadow-boxing match to me, though.
No, you just got caught by your own words, admit it you lost the argument.

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I don't believe there's anything to debate here, though. I took you at your word that you don't want to "debate" politics, especially when you're wrong.
Amen.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:17 PM   #32
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LOL. If it means that much to you.... knock yourself out. I'm just not that fanatical about politics to be bothered.


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Old 04-11-2009, 08:31 PM   #33
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Saints are fictive designations created by the superstitious. I used no such moniker nor do I believe your current President is without fault.
Lolwut? I thought we were all Americans?

Ironic. I suppose there is no true American like there's no true scottsman either.

Quote:
Again, more preconceived conclusions to which you only seek that data which are supportive.
Quote:
Again, preconceived conclusions to which you only seek that data...
Yes, yes. I'm sure you're just totally innocent of that charge, yourself.

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LOL. If it means that much to you.... knock yourself out. I'm just not that fanatical about politics to be bothered.
...unless it's something you know you can win, then I noticed you just pour it on. Picking your shots, as it were.


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Old 04-11-2009, 08:56 PM   #34
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Yes, yes. I'm sure you're just totally innocent of that charge, yourself.
If you'd care to demonstrate this successfully, I'm ready and willing to revise whatever conclusion I've arrived at in the face of evidence. If not, would you simply be baiting?....

Quote:
...unless it's something you know you can win, then I noticed you just pour it on. Picking your shots, as it were.
Or, perhaps I truly detest politics enough to not care and, thus, couldn't be bothered. I doubt I can improve upon the results of what the independent prosecutor already demonstrated, nor am I qualified to think so. More baiting?....


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Old 04-11-2009, 09:52 PM   #35
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If you'd care to demonstrate this successfully, I'm ready and willing to revise whatever conclusion I've arrived at in the face of evidence. If not, would you simply be baiting?....
In all honesty SkinWalker, you routinely are guilty of it whenever religion enters the topic you go on an attack to bash people whom are religious and then you act surprised that people like myself are offended.


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Or, perhaps I truly detest politics enough to not care and, thus, couldn't be bothered. I doubt I can improve upon the results of what the independent prosecutor already demonstrated, nor am I qualified to think so. More baiting?....
Considering the Independent Prosecutor knew that Libby wasn't the leaker, also knew Rove didn't have anything to do with it, and went on a witchhunt anyways, and you consider that it couldn't have been improved upon gives me great doubts as to your objectivity.

If the Prosecutor knew whom actually leaked the info and it wasn't the person he was going after, if he was ethical or objective at all he would dropped the case against Libby. Instead he badgered Libby to the point he could charge Libby for perjury, because Libby didn't recall some things that had occurred monthes prior correctly.

In your own post where you accuse GTA of baiting you, you prove that GTA is telling the truth.
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:57 PM   #36
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Lolwut? I thought we were all Americans?
I wonder how people born and raised in other countries feel about this. But perhaps they simply didn't get the memo.
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:09 PM   #37
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In all honesty SkinWalker, you routinely are guilty of it whenever religion enters the topic you go on an attack to bash people whom are religious and then you act surprised that people like myself are offended.
Quite the contrary. I'm very open to revising my conclusions regarding religion. The religious need only demonstrate where my conclusions are incorrect and why. If their arguments are rational and sound, what choice would I have but to revise. This attitude is hardly consistent with having a preconceived conclusion. Furthermore, I was once a believer in the Christian god and religious superstition. In the face of rational thought and evidence, I've revised my conclusion to now take the position of an agnostic-atheist.

But, please. Cite the place I've demonstrated a preconceived conclusion to which I'm only willing to see that data which are supportive. The closest thing you might be able to come to is my assertion that Cheney's office and Libby in particular was responsible for the treasonous act of revealing the identity of an intelligence asset. For this, I admit to being trusting of the Justice system in place but I'm willing to revise should evidence sufficient enough to sway that system the other way be presented. I defer to the legal system and the special prosecutor, who are experts in the field. I'm not.


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Old 04-12-2009, 12:50 AM   #38
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Quite the contrary. I'm very open to revising my conclusions regarding religion.
In a pig's eye!

But, please. Cite the place I've demonstrated a preconceived conclusion to which I'm only willing to see that data which are supportive. The closest thing you might be able to come to is my assertion that Cheney's office and Libby in particular was responsible for the treasonous act of revealing the identity of an intelligence asset. For this, I admit to being trusting of the Justice system in place but I'm willing to revise should evidence sufficient enough to sway that system the other way be presented. I defer to the legal system and the special prosecutor, who are experts in the field. I'm not.[/QUOTE]

http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost....0&postcount=34

The same post I quoted earlier in this thread.
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:31 AM   #39
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Which shows that I'm both willing to revise my position, should a qualified person present better evidence that that which I've already observed, and that you're not very good at rational discussions.

I have no preconceived conclusions about Libby or Cheney. The preponderance of evidence presented appears weighted against them, but should different evidence be shown by a qualified person(s), I'm willing to revise my position.

So, again, I ask that you support your apparently erroneous and fallacious (tu quoque) contention.


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Old 04-12-2009, 02:09 AM   #40
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QFE.

It's a bipartisan problem.

And each side will always see the media as ignoring the worst outrages of their opponents.

Now that Democrats (AKA: liberals) have the power, the Limbaugh-ites will have a field-day for the next 4 years (at least) working themselves into a froth over every little infraction (or perceived infraction) in a way unseen since the height of the Clinton administration. Which, I seem to remember, most of his administration was often accused of similar issues (all the way up to murder) by the usual suspects.

I don't pay super-close attention to the news that much these days, and I certainly don't subscribe to conservative-leaning media (my souces for current info being mostly: PBS, Slate, and the Boston Globe,) but I HAVE heard all about the tax issues with some of the Obama cabinet members.

So therefore: If I know something about it, then some "liberal mainstream media" outlets must have covered it at some point.

The insistence from the O.P. that he might be the only one paying attention to it doesn't quite pan out. (It could be that most people just don't care as much about it as you do, Gar. That might be far more difficult to refute.)

Should they be kicked out of the cabinet? Eh... I personally don't think so. If we were to wait for someone who has been around a long time in the political sphere, and experienced enough to be an effective senior cabinet member who has absolutely NO squirrely marks in their personal, business, or political history,.. then I fully expect the entire term would pass by with none of the seats ever being filled.
I completely agree that it's a bipartisan problem. Whether it was Clinton commiting perjury or Ted Stevens failing to report gifts (gotta love his "it's not a crime unless you intended to commit a crime" defense. I think that only works with mortal sins in the Catholic Church. ) I do however slightly disagree with your point about govt appointees. It's part of the reason there's a vetting process. It's highly ironic that the head of the IRS is now widely known for being a dishonest tax cheat. Minor squirrely marks might be no big deal as no one is perfect, but those with major issues that the rest of us would get screwed for should have the common decency to step aside (preferably before it becomes public).


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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