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Old 04-09-2009, 12:04 PM   #1
Darth_Yuthura
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14 year-old receives life in prison without possibility of parole.

At 14 years-old, Quantel Lotts received a life sentence for murdering his step brother and was tried as an adult. He is expected to spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.

I have issues with this because a 13 year-old (when he committed the crime) had been tried as an adult and received the same thing as a death sentence. His crime involved stabbing his victim 30 times... which obviously was heinous. He deserved a severe sentence, but the idea of life in prison without the possibility of parole for a 14-year old just goes too far.

He was under 18... not saying he was 'just a kid,' but that he would do more time because he was so young. If he lived to be 73(today's average), that means 59 years behind bars. Some have criticized that he should have gotten a lethal injection instead, but I find that is going just as far. He has served nearly a decade of that time at present.

This guy had only killed one person... he was not a serial killer. He was only 14, which meant that he could well could be rehabilitated by a few decades in prison. Although that one victim was killed brutally, that in itself didn't justify a death sentence. I think that he should have been given the possibility for parole because he was under 18. One or two decades behind bars is real time I seriously think that he should have been given a less severe sentence.

What do others think of this?


(I realize that I must have come across a very old source. I hadn't realized that this took place nearly a decade ago. I really need to read the dates properly.)

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Old 04-09-2009, 12:13 PM   #2
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Do you have any links to the story?

The basis for being "tried as an adult" is that they knew what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway. Now, it's one thing to stab a guy and run away, but stabbing someone 30 times either takes a real disconnection from reality, or a really sick mind. It might be possible to rehab him, and I do hope they try, but I don't have high hopes.


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Old 04-09-2009, 12:31 PM   #3
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:55 PM   #4
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Alright, I obviously have a bad habit of not checking the dates of what I come across. I hadn't realized that the crime took place almost a decade ago. That doesn't exactly change what I wanted to debate, but I realize that I should have gone over this more before posting anything.

The point that I was trying to get at was the idea of harsh sentencing and the problems with the US justice system providing parole for serial killers and quashing all hopes for rehabilitation for certain crimes. Parole options are not dates by which a person will be released, because they have to be passed by a parole board.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:15 PM   #5
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Nope, don't feel any pity for him. If there weren't any mitigating circumstances that affected the sentence, then there's no reason to feel bad for him. Maybe he should have been given possibility for parole after 30 years or so, but of course, I'm not the lawyers or the judge or the jury involved in the case.

And I'm not sure what you're getting at. He'll serve more time because he's younger? Well duh. But that's because he committed the crime when he was 13. If we would have been 80 when he committed first degree murder, the sentence would have been less. Take that issue up with God.

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Old 04-09-2009, 05:38 PM   #6
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You kill = suffer the consequences. The European rules are WORSE.

Here, if you kill someone, you'll get released with 12 years, options of parole, etc. Whilst the victims family suffers their entire life. Kill a child driving drunk? No prison sentence...community work, drivers license revoked..etc.

I'd take the hard rules any time.

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Old 04-09-2009, 07:52 PM   #7
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People speak so lightly about someone committing a murder and just getting 15 years w/plea bargain and that's all. Hate to break it, but over a decade in prison is not exactly something I believe most people take lightly. In states where the death penalty is present, homicide rates are not significantly different than states where it's abolished. There is a point where it wouldn't really matter if the maximum sentence were 20, 75 years, or the needle... very few would really be willing to risk so much to kill someone else.

I would be for sentences not to be served congruently for serial killers or rapists because they already demonstrated that they continued after their first victim. Some people are so mortified after killing once that they wouldn't have committed the same act again. To those people who act twice or more, then I would support life w/out parole; but only because they didn't have enough remorse to stop. For those who acted once, there is the possibility that they have already changed. Those such people should serve a decent chunk of time, but there should be the option for parole at some point.

That's not 'get out of jail,' it's a potential incentive for people to change. Those that don't would be rejected.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:03 PM   #8
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You murder in cold blood, frankly, if it were up to me I'd just whip out my gun and blow your head off. However, I suppose if he was young enough, they ought to try rehabbing him. However it should take a long time, plus he's gotta mean it.

Those that repeatedly show to never change should never be released.

I have dealt with those promising to change. Those going through "rehab". Part of that is vocational training. I worked in a landscaping biz for a bit of time (in fact I occasionally still do come back to it--work is work), while the government contracted with them to train and 'rehab' a handfull of ex cons. Hard to tell if these particular fellows meant well, but to be on the safe side I'd assume not. Not the type you take casually, either.

I do hate how some prisons are run more like a business, though. And I do believe that is one of the primary reasons we don't execute death row prisoners. Could just be my opinion though.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
I do hate how some prisons are run more like a business, though. And I do believe that is one of the primary reasons we don't execute death row prisoners. Could just be my opinion though.
Well there is an issue with overcrowded prisons vs. the death penalty. The cost of capital punishment... in terms of dollars is WAY too high to make sense on a massive scale. That is a flaw in the justice system and not my first solution to deal with life sentence without parole.

When you have inmates working, they have incentive to cut their sentence for each day they provide community service. When you condemn someone to life in prison without any hope of parole, you might as well pay the millions to legally execute someone because they would forever be a weight on the economy. Those who have some incentive to work would be able to pay for themselves at the very least through what they generate, but those who have nothing to gain wouldn't have reason to do this.

I guess my main issue is the severity of the sentence for murder essentially condemning a teen long before he even became an adult. If serial killers can manage to get the possibility for parole, then why not Lotts? If Lotts doesn't get that option, then why would older serial killers have much more hope of rehabilitation?
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:58 PM   #10
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You do realize that people who are "mortified" after killing, show genuine remose for their crime, get lighter sentences(unless you pre-plan a killing spree of say, a dozen people, then remorse won't get you anywhere). The problem with community service is the "community" part. You can't exactly trust a criminal, who is probably rather diseased, around the food supply, you can't trust rapists around women, pedophiles around children, murderers around people in general. That's the whole point of prison, to isolate people from the society that they harmed, and punish them for their actions.

Sometimes in cases of serial killers, there are back-room deals being made, don't take the system at face value. Perhaps a serial killer gave up some important information or is willing to help out cops on another case, as they sometimes do, and in exchange their sentence was cut down. Also, there are medical conditions and remorse of course, if Lotts, even at 14, showed no remorse, and perhaps a desire to do it again, people would favor giving him a harsher sentence.

Also there is some meat to the idea that many judges who try kids unfairly give them harsh sentences, from petty crime to murder, they receive disproportionate sentencing, this however, is often the fault of the judge, not the system, or perhaps the prosecutor.


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Old 04-09-2009, 10:58 PM   #11
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Also, slightly off topic since you were getting at the severity of punishments, If a little kid touches you inappropriately, you get charged. IF you just sit outside a room that your friends are robbing, you get tried for it, and if you just walk away without saying anything, its assumed that you are giving consent to it.
WEIRD!!


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Old 04-09-2009, 11:36 PM   #12
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I don't have a problem with this sentence. I mean, you know right from wrong at 13, and you know what you're doing when you murder someone.

You may have a point about others who do worse can get out, but it all depends on where the crime happened, and who the judge is. It's messed up, but that is the way it is. However, I fell no pity for someone who has the nerve to take another life.


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Old 04-09-2009, 11:58 PM   #13
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Any account why he took his brothers life? Could he have been threatened, tormented all his life by him, etc.

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Old 04-10-2009, 01:04 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Jedi_Man View Post
Also, slightly off topic since you were getting at the severity of punishments, If a little kid touches you inappropriately, you get charged. IF you just sit outside a room that your friends are robbing, you get tried for it, and if you just walk away without saying anything, its assumed that you are giving consent to it.
WEIRD!!
Being tried for a crime and being convicted of a crime are two different things. Lots of people get tried for crimes they didn't commit and many of them are found innocent of them. On the same note, some people are tried for crimes they did commit and found innocent.

In the particular situation with the "innocent joe" outside a robbery, is that if your friends are robbing a place, and you just "happen" to be outside, you're probably not that innocent. I had a friend who got like, 2 or 3 years of probation for getting drunk and then ending up being the driver while his friends robbed a store.

What was the lesson? Don't get flat ass drunk and do stupid stuff, or drive.

As for a kid touching you, that's kinda a stretch, as it depends on the way a person feels about their child doing that. If a kid starts punching you in the nuts for no reason, even if the parent presses charges, it's unlikely anything will happen. If a kid randomly slaps your ass, it'll probably blow over with no charges or anything.


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Old 04-10-2009, 08:12 PM   #15
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If he's willing to take somebody elses life, he should be able to live with the consequences. Period.




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Old 04-10-2009, 11:06 PM   #16
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His sentence is payment for the life he took.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:17 PM   #17
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If you are old enough to commit an adult crime, you are old enough to do adult time. A person that is stabbed to death by a 13 year old is still just as dead as one stabbed to death by an 18 year old. Chances are what got him the life in prison sentence was premeditation and lack of remorse. The same thing that would get an adult sentenced to life without parole.


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Old 04-11-2009, 12:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
I guess my main issue is the severity of the sentence for murder essentially condemning a teen long before he even became an adult. If serial killers can manage to get the possibility for parole, then why not Lotts? If Lotts doesn't get that option, then why would older serial killers have much more hope of rehabilitation?
Irrelevant. The system is designed to take a certain number of sets of rules and apply them individually to each case, with some wiggle-room for the DAs to make deals, etc. You can't look at another case and try to retrofit facts from this case to it.

Other serial killers may have done their crimes in different places, that had different laws about life without parole.

Other serial killers may have done their crimes in a time where the laws were differently written about how parole rights are given.

&etc.

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Any account why he took his brothers life? Could he have been threatened, tormented all his life by him, etc.
I'm sure that would have been taken into account when he was sentenced
(or else this would be in the realm of miscarriage of justice, but we have no reason to suspect that).

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Old 04-11-2009, 01:26 AM   #19
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I would like to think that the DA's office gave all of the circumstances surrounding this case an appropriate amount of consideration before charging this kid as an adult. Likewise, I would hope that the judge did the same before sentencing him.

That being said, if both the DA's office and the judge did the above and this outcome was the result, then this kid must not have shown any remorse at all.


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Old 04-11-2009, 01:53 AM   #20
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Ya know before the kids was tried as an adult, they more than likely gave the family the opportunity to plea bargain.

"If he signs a full confession, we'll make sure he gets sentanced as a minor."

If HE feels he was wrongly convicted, he can ask for a retrial. But chances are there was plenty of evidence for him being the killer. Stabbing the brother to death.. That's pretty brutal.

Now, life no parole for non-murder... That's a different thing. But again, it depends on the crime and severity.


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Old 04-11-2009, 05:43 AM   #21
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I think this case is another prime example of a situation in which the courts, judges and prison services will simply be unable to win. They invoke the wrath of various groups for keeping this person in prison for life without parole, yet it is almost a certainty that if a convicted murderer was to be released, and should kill again, they would all still be criticised for releasing him - 'rehabilitated' or not. There will always be that strain between Victims groups and Prisoners groups.

Incidentally, does anyone have a link to a source stating that the victim was stabbed 30 times? That CNN article reports 'stabbed twice'. Murder is still murder, of course, but I would like to know where that figure came from.

I rarely like to trust newspaper/site sources for the facts of any case - let alone criminal cases. Normally it seems that the journalist starts off with a particular goal, either to support or undermine a decision, then bends or omits facts as necessary. If defence counsel were unable to raise any basis for mitigation of the sentence (which they are all well trained and usually well practiced in doing), then in all probability no such basis, recognised by law, existed. Another thing to consider is that the majority of (competent) Judges do not generally make rash decisions on sentencing - it doesn't look good at appeal and does very little for their reputation.

Finally, it seems that Review was rejected at first instance. That seems a strong indication (without consultation of facts) that the case was properly decided, or at least was in accordance with the law. If the latter is the case, I doubt any Judge will be disposed towards overruling.



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Old 04-11-2009, 06:33 AM   #22
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Hey you get executed in a Van and have your Organs sold on the Black Market for Tax evasion in China FGS. Lotts should think himself lucky.


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Old 04-11-2009, 06:39 AM   #23
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Incidentally, does anyone have a link to a source stating that the victim was stabbed 30 times? That CNN article reports 'stabbed twice'. Murder is still murder, of course, but I would like to know where that figure came from.
Negative on that, Papa Bear. The only figure I can see is on CNN, all other reports appear to omit the number of stabbings. Definitely don't see any instances of 30 stabs.


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Old 04-11-2009, 07:24 AM   #24
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He deserves a life in jail. And a lethal injection... well that would have been too merciful, i mean no one is really going to suffer from the injection. Its just a sting and a bye bye. A life in prison... well thats a punishment.


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Old 04-11-2009, 09:29 AM   #25
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If defence counsel were unable to raise any basis for mitigation of the sentence (which they are all well trained and usually well practiced in doing), then in all probability no such basis, recognised by law, existed. Another thing to consider is that the majority of (competent) Judges do not generally make rash decisions on sentencing - it doesn't look good at appeal and does very little for their reputation.
Agreed.

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Old 04-11-2009, 02:47 PM   #26
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And a lethal injection... well that would have been too merciful, i mean no one is really going to suffer from the injection. Its just a sting and a bye bye.
I don't see why we need to make criminals suffer during death sentences when they are eventually going to die any way. Capital punishment is exercised to rid society of that individual. If he is getting out of the way, I don't think we need to take an eye for an eye.

On a similar note, I find it difficult to call life imprisonment a proper punishment (not just in this case, but in any scenario). The reason is, by permanently locking up an individual in prison, you isolate him from society. On the society's side, that's equivalent to execution. On the criminal's side, his life is pretty much over regardless. Sure he'll "live to regret" and "suffer" and all that, but it all eventually ends up as sustaining criminals for ethics' sake. They could be dead now and a lot of tax money could be saved.

Possibly off-topic post, and potential for spiralling into capital punishment/life imprisonment thread.



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Old 04-12-2009, 07:24 AM   #27
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Well there is an issue with overcrowded prisons vs. the death penalty. The cost of capital punishment... in terms of dollars is WAY too high to make sense on a massive scale. That is a flaw in the justice system and not my first solution to deal with life sentence without parole.
There are other, cheaper, humane methods that are quick and painless. Also, what are we paying executors so damn much for? It's not like they're squeamish and suffer emotional trauma every time they execute someone or else they wouldn't take the job.

Quote:
When you have inmates working, they have incentive to cut their sentence for each day they provide community service. When you condemn someone to life in prison without any hope of parole, you might as well pay the millions to legally execute someone because they would forever be a weight on the economy. Those who have some incentive to work would be able to pay for themselves at the very least through what they generate, but those who have nothing to gain wouldn't have reason to do this.
Conceded partially, but I should like to point out that's only the lighter side of things. To keep it short: prisons who do not rehabilitate effectively and only care about income for holding quotas.

However my attitude pretty much is, yeah, if they are a weight on society with no hopes or chances of bettering, get rid of them. Be done with it

Quote:
I guess my main issue is the severity of the sentence for murder essentially condemning a teen long before he even became an adult. If serial killers can manage to get the possibility for parole, then why not Lotts? If Lotts doesn't get that option, then why would older serial killers have much more hope of rehabilitation?
The system is ****ed up. Double standards, maybe.

A side note: I wish I could take those cloaks and oak hammers away from judges who let sick people walk who shouldn't...maybe "judge" them back with a nice hard konk on the head while I'm at it.

The younger ones do have more potential to change than older ones. I'll agree there. Still, the kid knew what he was doing. It was wrong, even in outrage. I'd of course take everything into consideration that I possibly could before judging him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider View Post
You do realize that people who are "mortified" after killing, show genuine remose for their crime, get lighter sentences(unless you pre-plan a killing spree of say, a dozen people, then remorse won't get you anywhere).
Not to any great effect that would relatively matter anyway.

Quote:
The problem with community service is the "community" part. You can't exactly trust a criminal, who is probably rather diseased, around the food supply, you can't trust rapists around women, pedophiles around children, murderers around people in general. That's the whole point of prison, to isolate people from the society that they harmed, and punish them for their actions.
Sums up my thoughts and pretty much was the conclusion I came to in general. Certain things, there is no, and should be no, compromise. There is just no rehabilitating people who just won't change. Certain things, there is no other answer but to punish.

As to this case, it is unusual in its circumstances, so certain exceptions could perhaps be made, but not lightly by any stretch whatsoever. I know I am still rather skeptical since the kid KNEW what he was doing, and the intent could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. To take a life in general is no easy decision.

Quote:
Also there is some meat to the idea that many judges who try kids unfairly give them harsh sentences, from petty crime to murder, they receive disproportionate sentencing, this however, is often the fault of the judge, not the system, or perhaps the prosecutor.
Or fanatical lunatics disguised as such people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi_Man View Post
Also, slightly off topic since you were getting at the severity of punishments, If a little kid touches you inappropriately, you get charged. IF you just sit outside a room that your friends are robbing, you get tried for it, and if you just walk away without saying anything, its assumed that you are giving consent to it.
WEIRD!!
Yes, and I'm afraid that goes into territory with a whole mess of plotting on maybes, unknowns, and other stuff that is basically hearsay without any solid evidence. A vehichle by which many an injustice could be carried out. You do raise a good point for another thread. Feel free if you'd so desire to make one.

My caveat to punishment for taking the life of another would be: exception in the case of defense. Defense of self or another proven beyond a reasonable doubt.


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I think this case is another prime example of a situation in which the courts, judges and prison services will simply be unable to win. They invoke the wrath of various groups for keeping this person in prison for life without parole, yet it is almost a certainty that if a convicted murderer was to be released, and should kill again, they would all still be criticised for releasing him - 'rehabilitated' or not. There will always be that strain between Victims groups and Prisoners groups.
Ah, How fundamental: a no-win situation. Also begs the question of society and testing its will for seeing true justice served VERSUS just satisfying its passions and prejudices. Just something for everyone to think about.

Concerning your emphasis upon "data" and citing media as a source for it: I'd agree it's not kosher. It's a rather ugly sibling to real research but what the two do have in common is that they do, in thesis, take a side of an issue, support it, and argue it. Since most general populace won't be bothered with nitty-gritty details anyway, media is so successful on convenience and ease of availability, as opposed to rigor and merit seen of real research.

@ Sabretooth: you do raise a good point and shine light on yet another issue: correctional ethics vs correctional economics.

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Possibly off-topic post, and potential for spiralling into capital punishment/life imprisonment thread.
Feel free to start one.


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Old 04-12-2009, 08:51 AM   #28
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here are other, cheaper, humane methods that are quick and painless. Also, what are we paying executors so damn much for?
The reason capital punishment is more expensive than life imprisonment is not executor pay, rather the insaneextra legal costs that is neccesary due to the sentence being irreversible. This means that it's quite hard to make executions cost effective compared to life imprisonment unless you believe the reduced costs makes up for the increase in executions of innocents.

If you want to cut costs, have them work, preferably somewhere where they can get a decent job after release, as a bonus, it makes re-offending far less likely.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:41 PM   #29
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At 14 years-old, Quantel Lotts received a life sentence for murdering his step brother and was tried as an adult. He is expected to spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.

I have issues with this because a 13 year-old (when he committed the crime) had been tried as an adult and received the same thing as a death sentence. His crime involved stabbing his victim 30 times... which obviously was heinous. He deserved a severe sentence, but the idea of life in prison without the possibility of parole for a 14-year old just goes too far.

He was under 18... not saying he was 'just a kid,' but that he would do more time because he was so young. If he lived to be 73(today's average), that means 59 years behind bars. Some have criticized that he should have gotten a lethal injection instead, but I find that is going just as far. He has served nearly a decade of that time at present.

This guy had only killed one person... he was not a serial killer. He was only 14, which meant that he could well could be rehabilitated by a few decades in prison. Although that one victim was killed brutally, that in itself didn't justify a death sentence. I think that he should have been given the possibility for parole because he was under 18. One or two decades behind bars is real time I seriously think that he should have been given a less severe sentence.

What do others think of this?


(I realize that I must have come across a very old source. I hadn't realized that this took place nearly a decade ago. I really need to read the dates properly.)
I agree with you for the most part, 14 is a young age you're still growing up not saying that murdering someone is okay because of said age but there is a fine line between killing someone at 14 with the mentality of a 14-year old and killing someone at say 25 with and adult mentality.

For the most part I just have to sympathize with the taxpayers who are surely paying for this kid's (now adult man I suppose) life stay at jail, which isn't cheap. For the second instance I had described I would probably be partial to agreeing for a death row sentence, but being the age of 14 at the time when the murder was done there's no saying that he hasn't made a full 180 as Darth Yuthura had previously mentioned.


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Old 04-14-2009, 12:25 AM   #30
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Thank-you. Most who have posted simply say he should have either gotten worse, or that he got what he deserved. Given that this person was still very young, a few years in prison would be more likely to change his mentality than someone who was much older.

Parole isn't so much setting him lose as it is getting him to support himself and not on taxpayer's dollars. If he were to be released... after passing for rehabilitation, he would be less expensive to take care of than a life sentence in prison. It simply would make no sense for this kind of sentence with no hope of parole and no death sentence. There HAS to be something better than this. I don't want him to die in prison of natural causes, but no one will stick a needle in his arm. If he's never getting a chance at parole, then he will be a weight on the American taxpayer for the rest of his life.

It has to be death or parole option... this sentence is the worst alternative to any other one out there.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:42 AM   #31
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Let's just suppose we (law) allow his freedom at let's say ... 23 (sentence, parole, whatever). And he does it again, killing. What are we going to say to the next victim? we had the chance to lock him up and we (society-system) allowed his freedom. Just 13 years old when doing it but he killed, and in that way. Worst, these cases usually do stablish precedent for further trials; so from the moment we allow this boy's freedom and case is closed, many other similar cases will be solved same way.

Nevertheless, I don't agree with capital punishment; less at this age, so maybe life imprisonment is the unique choice for cases like this. Of course it's expensive for a society to feed people for 15, 25 or 50 years ... but it's the only choice IMHO. More prisons maybe too.


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Old 04-14-2009, 01:40 AM   #32
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Prison simply makes someone a financial burden on society in addition to being a moral burden on society - and often times will amplify the latter as well - so that that we can all beat our chests and proclaim that justice has been done, when in fact, we've merely weakened our society as a whole.



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Old 04-14-2009, 03:41 AM   #33
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Prison simply makes someone a financial burden on society in addition to being a moral burden on society - and often times will amplify the latter as well - so that that we can all beat our chests and proclaim that justice has been done, when in fact, we've merely weakened our society as a whole.
Which is why we need to have prisoners doing some kind of work that will benefit society while they're in prison, given the product scares from China, they could do product testing. If they die, oh well. If they don't, they're providing a valuable service to the country.

As well, criminals who are to be released soon after their crime or in the far future, should be taught job and social skills, and educated. Now, I'm not talking about a high-dollar university-level education, but many criminals don't even have basic high-school educations, sometimes less. And it would go a long way to reforming them to educate them in general knowledge and work skills, like a mechanic or a gardener or a stock-boy. Simple but useful.


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Old 11-17-2009, 12:32 PM   #34
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Even if he killed someone, you need to try and imagine what he's going through. He is young, and scared, upset. It wouldn't surprise me if he committed suicide. Everyone deserves a second chance. And one thing you all say is "He is young but that doesn't matter". He was young, and that DOES matter. Being young mean he hasn't experienced all that life has to offer. Just imagine, he will never fall in love and get married, he'll never be able to even drive a car. No Chirstmas, or birthdays with family. Everyone in the world hating him. He was stupid, and didn't exercise good judgement, but you should have mercy. I think a few years in prison, and then rehab, will be enough to teach him his lesson. I think that your opinions might change if it was you deciding his fate. Mine wouldn't, because my default is grace.

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Old 12-02-2009, 03:15 PM   #35
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First, having juveniles commit the crime when you want some killed is a standard street gang technique. No record, less time. So age has nothing to do with it.

Second, I used to teach a class at the Renaissance Faire entitled Crime and punishment, comparing the two legal systems to each other.

Under the Elizabethan system it was considered cruel and unusual to make the person wait if sentenced to death. The maximum amount of time you could be held before execution of sentence was two months under Elizabeth, expanded to three when Scotland became part of it under James. There was no juvenile compared to adult justice. If you were capable of committing the crime, you were treated as an adult.

THird I am more upset with the waste of money in a strapped economy. This kid and the menendez brothers have one thing in common, a jury unwilling to merely excise the problem. Right now the State of California (Which is close to bankruptcy) spends over 60,000 dollars a year in salaries and plant maintence for the prisons to keep just one criminal in prison. Compare that to an average income at just above poverty level of less than 30,000.

It bothers me most because the same state pays less than 10,000 to keep a kid in school.

As for the cost of capital punishment... 'in terms of dollars is WAY too high to make sense on a massive scale'. True. However that cost is caused not by the penalty itself (A lethal injection costs about $20, A rope for hanging about $15 [remember plant maintenance? The scaffold gets used hundreds of times] Gas chamber after cost of the actual room about $11, Electrocution, $250. IT is caused by the constant appeals process. The first thing any lawyer smart enough to study at law school knows is; when in doubt, ask for a continuance at every level. All you have to convince is the judge. Then you spend the sometimes years on your butt, paid for your services by the client (Or the state if you're a public defender) trying to find legal reasons why your client should go free on a technicality. A perfect example is the Menendez case, where the first jury was hung. Not on guilt, but on the punishment.

For those who don't remember, the two boys (Youngest was 18 when the crime was committed) fired a shotgun into their parents fiurteen times, passing the gun back and forth as they did. The reason? Their parents wouldn't increase their allowances. They claimed abuse, and were only protecting themselves, but once the older boy passed the gun to his brother, it stopped being self defense.

Their lawyer assured the next jury was firmly against the death penalty, then asked for leniency because, get this, they were orphans.


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Old 12-02-2009, 04:00 PM   #36
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Well it all depends on what you think of rapists/pedophile sentences I think. If they get life in prison w/ out paroll, then murderers should also get life in prison. If the sexual predators don't get life then there is no way a murderer deserves to get any more than that. I only bring up those comparisons because I think rapists/pedophiles have committed the most heinous of any crime...so I usually use what I think of those sentences to use almost a "scale."

I think this boy got what he deserved. He obviously wanted to kill him bad...and even though he is young...at age 14...I knew exactly what I was doing. I knew what would happen if I killed someone...he knew what would happen and he went through with it anyway. Sorry, troubled lives start at a young age and that's a pretty terrible start for him and I doubt you can "rehab" someone like that because they will never be okay. Even if he was given the chance of rehab and even paroll...how can you tell someone who's out of the normal world for over 20-30 years to just go on, get a job, and do what everyone else is doing? It won't happen. His sentence deserves to be long, but really, his life ended when he stabbed the other kid so it doesn't matter how long he's in jail.

I was reading more into things like this...and I really think that the US needs to implement a legitimate scale for how many years you get for killing anyone of any age. Like that mom I read about...5 of her kids...basically gets a bad rep but doesnt spend much time in jail...unacceptable. I mean, sure there are special circumstances like self-defense but if you get found guilty, you automatically get this many years (idk how many but more than a few for sure).

Idk, something just needs to change...

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Old 12-02-2009, 05:27 PM   #37
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I'm more in support of this then the system used in other countries (mainly Europe).

In the US, you are responsible and you do your time. Although some punishments are...very long or just bad (death sentence imo) it's better then what's happening over here.

Over here, your record is CLEANED when you're 18.
A woman slave trader recently escaped here because 'a prisoner has the right to see his child' and so he was released from prison for a week orso and simply fled.
Some years ago, a diagnosed psychopath did the same and murdered someone on his 'vacation' from prison.

Oh yeah. Did I mentioned prisoners here have a PC (with internet), TV stereo system and sports? That's FAR better then hard-working but poor people have.

Please be glad that people are held responsible for their deeds by the system and are punished for it. Maybe to severe though, but that's impossible to wager.

If I kill someone when I'm 13 or 14 shouldn't matter. If they find the victim
's body in my house, with 30 gunshot wounds, seventeen knife stabs and a bear trap I knew what I was doing and should be punished so. My age shouldn't matter because there are smart children and stupid adults and vice versa(to put it bluntly).

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Old 12-02-2009, 06:24 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ztalker
I'm more in support of this then the system used in other countries (mainly Europe).

In the US, you are responsible and you do your time. Although some punishments are...very long or just bad (death sentence imo) it's better then what's happening over here.

Over here, your record is CLEANED when you're 18.
A woman slave trader recently escaped here because 'a prisoner has the right to see his child' and so he was released from prison for a week orso and simply fled.
Some years ago, a diagnosed psychopath did the same and murdered someone on his 'vacation' from prison.

Oh yeah. Did I mentioned prisoners here have a PC (with internet), TV stereo system and sports? That's FAR better then hard-working but poor people have.

Please be glad that people are held responsible for their deeds by the system and are punished for it. Maybe to severe though, but that's impossible to wager.

If I kill someone when I'm 13 or 14 shouldn't matter. If they find the victim
's body in my house, with 30 gunshot wounds, seventeen knife stabs and a bear trap I knew what I was doing and should be punished so. My age shouldn't matter because there are smart children and stupid adults and vice versa(to put it bluntly).
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It wouldn't surprise me if he committed suicide. Everyone deserves a second chance.
Going to disagree with you here, there are people who don't deserve a second chance, I include Murders, Rapists and those who sexually exploit minors in this group. I'm sickened that you can't see that.

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Originally Posted by Junior
Being young mean he hasn't experienced all that life has to offer. Just imagine, he will never fall in love and get married, he'll never be able to even drive a car. No Chirstmas, or birthdays with family. Everyone in the world hating him. He was stupid, and didn't exercise good judgement, but you should have mercy. I think a few years in prison, and then rehab, will be enough to teach him his lesson. I think that your opinions might change if it was you deciding his fate. Mine wouldn't, because my default is grace
He screwed up and killed somebody, he doesn't deserve to get these things from what he did. Stabbing somebody 30 times isn't a mistake, it's deliberate. He should get executed or life, not let off when he's above the age of majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach
Under the Elizabethan system it was considered cruel and unusual to make the person wait if sentenced to death. The maximum amount of time you could be held before execution of sentence was two months under Elizabeth, expanded to three when Scotland became part of it under James. There was no juvenile compared to adult justice. If you were capable of committing the crime, you were treated as an adult.
If only, if only.....

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Originally Posted by Mach
Their lawyer assured the next jury was firmly against the death penalty, then asked for leniency because, get this, they were orphans.
I'm ashamed to admit that I laughed at that.....

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Originally Posted by urluckyday
I doubt you can "rehab" someone like that because they will never be okay.
Yep, not everybody can be 'rehab'-ed, the more people realize this, the better off we'll be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urluckyday
I was reading more into things like this...and I really think that the US needs to implement a legitimate scale for how many years you get for killing anyone of any age. Like that mom I read about...5 of her kids...basically gets a bad rep but doesnt spend much time in jail...unacceptable. I mean, sure there are special circumstances like self-defense but if you get found guilty, you automatically get this many years (idk how many but more than a few for sure).
Nah, just go back to Hammurabi and make a life worth your life. Then each additional life worth x amount of lashes with the cat o' nine tails. Let's see how many people will want to break that law.


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Old 12-02-2009, 06:39 PM   #39
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Everyone deserves a second chance. And one thing you all say is "He is young but that doesn't matter". He was young, and that DOES matter. Being young mean he hasn't experienced all that life has to offer.
I'm normally in favour of giving people a second chance, but not over murder.

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Originally Posted by JuniorModder
Just imagine, he will never fall in love and get married, he'll never be able to even drive a car. No Chirstmas, or birthdays with family.
His step-brother will never experience any of these things either, so I don't see why he should.






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Old 12-03-2009, 12:47 PM   #40
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The sentence isn't just about punishment. It's also about protecting the rest of society from someone who has committed a vicious, brutal murder. I think mercy is a good thing and second chances are important for people who can indeed be rehabbed. However, some people are just so damaged psychologically that they simply can't be rehabbed. This kid stabbed another child into oblivion. This was no accident. It was a horrendous crime, and I don't know that I could trust him never to do something this horrible ever again. Giving him another chance, only to have him murder again, would be one more death too many. I don't know that the state can afford to take the risk. I do know I wouldn't want him anywhere near my family for fear that he would hurt them.


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