lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Hitler, The Nazi Party, and Christianity
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 04-10-2009, 08:06 AM   #41
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
There was no evidence that Hitler was an atheist presented in this thread, perhaps it needs to be repeated a third or fourth time?
To say that people in this thread are bashing Christianity and 'preaching that Christians are intolerant' is grossly misrepresenting what this thread is about. Hitler was an evil man. Hitler was a Christian. What does this say about every other Christian? Absolutely nothing. This is not intolerance against Christianity.


So there were good Christians and bad Christians in WWII. Gee, it's almost as if their belief system didn't really matter to wether or not they were good persons.

The idea that Germans are the master race is not inherently incompatible with Christianity. Unless I missed the verse that said 'Germans are not the master race'.
Also, if Hitler had to appeal to Christians to gain support, then does this not indicate that regardless of Hitler's beliefs, at least many of his followers were Christians? So were all the nazi's fake Christians, only pretending to be Christian for each other because they believed all the others to be Christian?

EDIT: I'd like to add that saying 'Hitler didn't act like a true Christian' or variations thereof are just examples of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. Aside from that there is a lot of debate about what constitutes 'true' Christianity (especially among Christians) so this is obviously not a definition of 'Christian' we can work with.
Actually I did make a rather clear argument for Hitler NOT being a Christian. The SS had most of it's followers LEAVING the church. The book "Table Talk" makes it quite clear that while being publicly Christian, he did not like Christianity. As I said. At best we can make him out to be an Agnostic that used the church to keep the citezens from banding together to fight him. Divide and conquer if you will. Add to that keeping them in fear would also be quite handy.

Remember that the majority of people in Germany were not actually members of the National Socialist party. The majority of the soldiers fighting for Germany had no idea what was going on at the camps. It is very easy to see how he would want to keep the men fighting on the front lines. So yeah, him wanting to keep them thinking he was a good Christian makes perfect sense.

Remember he was a public figure. Any time he said anything in public it was repeated through the ranks of the civilian and military populations. If he uttered that he was against Christianity those troops might have deserted. This wouldn't be a problem for his top aides who thought of him at a higher rank than Christianity. So if he utters negative things towards Christianity in private with them, it is more acceptable.

Letters, recordings and phone calls.. they can be intercepted. So he has to be careful there.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 09:51 AM   #42
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Actually I did make a rather clear argument for Hitler NOT being a Christian. The SS had most of it's followers LEAVING the church. The book "Table Talk" makes it quite clear that while being publicly Christian, he did not like Christianity. As I said. At best we can make him out to be an Agnostic that used the church to keep the citezens from banding together to fight him. Divide and conquer if you will. Add to that keeping them in fear would also be quite handy.
Just because he did not like Christianity as an organised religion that does not mean he did not believe in Jesus and the Christian God. Besides it has been pointed out that 'Table Talk' is not the most reliable of sources.

I think it is entirely possible that Hitler *did* merely pretend to be Christian to be well-liked amongst the Christian populace. I did not mean to imply that Hitler was, without a doubt, Christian. I just wanted to point out that some of the arguments presented here cannot be used to prove Hitler was not a Christian, and also that saying Hitler is a Christian is not the same as bashing Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Remember that the majority of people in Germany were not actually members of the National Socialist party. The majority of the soldiers fighting for Germany had no idea what was going on at the camps. It is very easy to see how he would want to keep the men fighting on the front lines. So yeah, him wanting to keep them thinking he was a good Christian makes perfect sense.

Remember he was a public figure. Any time he said anything in public it was repeated through the ranks of the civilian and military populations. If he uttered that he was against Christianity those troops might have deserted. This wouldn't be a problem for his top aides who thought of him at a higher rank than Christianity. So if he utters negative things towards Christianity in private with them, it is more acceptable.

Letters, recordings and phone calls.. they can be intercepted. So he has to be careful there.
True, it makes sense... but it's not proof either way. If we assume Hitler to be a Christian, it would still make sense for him to say those things.
Regarding Hitler's followers: They may not have known about the full extent of the horrors perpetrated by the nazi regime, but surely they must have agreed with some of Hitler's nazistic views, which he also spoke of in public and during speeches. So if we assume that Hitler said what the people wanted to hear, his followers were both Christians and nazis, or they would have disagreed with him and he would not have had the following he did.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:02 AM   #43
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Just throwing it out that I also argued that Table Talk was substantiated by Speer.

Do you have another source of his private conversations that did not include members of the Clergy. Remember that Hitler also attacked Christian institutions that disagreed with Nazi philosophy. Again, it points more to the church being used to keep the followers in line rather than actually being religious. (The other document I provided). So perhaps you can come up with something that helps us get a glimpse into his non-private life. Perhaps some bit of information that counters Table Talk. Again remember it has to meet the standards of non-public(as that would scare away the general population), personal views.

Just an additional note. I am NOT Christian. I'm actually Agnostic. I have basically been arguing that Hitler was more closely associated with my own religion(technically speaking). Fortunately for me I disassociate his actions from the religion. As he's just a psychotic nutjob, which comes in all flavors.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Tommycat; 04-10-2009 at 10:10 AM.
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:07 AM   #44
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Garfield seems to not get the point of this thread.
No, I get the purpose of this thread, it isn't difficult to figure out when one of the key people on this board that like to bash Christians and people of faith starts this thread trying to tie Hitler to Christians.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:13 AM   #45
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
The thread is called "Hitler, The Nazi Party, and Christianity" and since I have no further arguments regarding Hitler's personal beliefs I thought I'd focus on the latter two parts of the thread title. It is extremely improbable that there was not at least one nazi who held Christian beliefs. Afterall, if they agreed with the public image of nazism displayed by Hitler, then they must have held these beliefs even if Hitler himself did not.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:16 AM   #46
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
The thread is called "Hitler, The Nazi Party, and Christianity" and since I have no further arguments regarding Hitler's personal beliefs I thought I'd focus on the latter two parts of the thread title. It is extremely improbable that there was not at least one nazi who held Christian beliefs. Afterall, if they agreed with the public image of nazism displayed by Hitler, then they must have held these beliefs even if Hitler himself did not.
To throw that right back, it is extremely improbable that there was not at least one Atheist that a Nazi...


Seriously, this thread is nothing more than a typical smearfest.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:37 AM   #47
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
To throw that right back, it is extremely improbable that there was not at least one Atheist that a Nazi...


Seriously, this thread is nothing more than a typical smearfest.
Not at all (as I explained earlier). I have no qualms admitting that there were atheistic nazis (although it seems unlikely, because as we can see nazi Germany was drenched in Christian symbolism). It's just that some people cannot admit that there were Christians amongst a group of people generally considered to have been the most evil people on Earth.

Which, I repeat, says nothing about Christianity as a whole, except perhaps that being a Christian does not automatically make you perfect.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:40 AM   #48
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
Not at all (as I explained earlier). I have no qualms admitting that there were atheistic nazis (although it seems unlikely, because as we can see nazi Germany was drenched in Christian symbolism). It's just that some people cannot admit that there were Christians amongst a group of people generally considered to have been the most evil people on Earth.
They used symbolism to try trick individuals into following them, and also give people the impression that their actions were condoned by the church...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie
Which, I repeat, says nothing about Christianity as a whole, except perhaps that being a Christian does not automatically make you perfect.
And I'll throw that right back and say being an Atheist doesn't make one superior to anyone else. Seriously if you think about it though, Nazism does more closely resemble Darwinistic views that only the strong survive.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 11:20 AM   #49
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
They used symbolism to try trick individuals into following them, and also give people the impression that their actions were condoned by the church...
And if people were tricked by this, and were under the impression that the nazis were a Christian party, do you think the atheists among the people would have joined? No, by defining their party as a Christian party the nazis ensured mainly Christian followers, regardless of wether or not they were Christians themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
And I'll throw that right back and say being an Atheist doesn't make one superior to anyone else. Seriously if you think about it though, Nazism does more closely resemble Darwinistic views that only the strong survive.
I did not claim to be perfect, I merely claimed that others aren't perfect either.
'Only the strong survive' is a misrepresentation of 'survival of the fittest' and if you're trying to link nazism and atheism through this, you should know that Darwinism and atheism aren't synonymous at all.
Furthermore it was clear from the first post in this thread that Hitler's idea of a master race was not influenced by Darwinism.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 11:34 AM   #50
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
And if people were tricked by this, and were under the impression that the nazis were a Christian party, do you think the atheists among the people would have joined? No, by defining their party as a Christian party the nazis ensured mainly Christian followers, regardless of wether or not they were Christians themselves.
Didn't they also outlaw the other political parties though?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie
I did not claim to be perfect, I merely claimed that others aren't perfect either.
'Only the strong survive' is a misrepresentation of 'survival of the fittest' and if you're trying to link nazism and atheism through this, you should know that Darwinism and atheism aren't synonymous at all.
Furthermore it was clear from the first post in this thread that Hitler's idea of a master race was not influenced by Darwinism.
See the Olympic Games that Hitler hosted in Germany he and the Nazi Party were out to prove that Germans were stronger, faster, smarter than people from other countries.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 09:35 PM   #51
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
Not at all (as I explained earlier). I have no qualms admitting that there were atheistic nazis (although it seems unlikely, because as we can see nazi Germany was drenched in Christian symbolism). It's just that some people cannot admit that there were Christians amongst a group of people generally considered to have been the most evil people on Earth.

Which, I repeat, says nothing about Christianity as a whole, except perhaps that being a Christian does not automatically make you perfect.
Wait. So you see the atheists as being unlikely to be a part of it? As mentioned earlier, Hitler ORDERED his top men to remain a part of the church BECAUSE MOST of the SS was LEAVING the church.

Evolution is more of an atheistic view than it is Christian even today. Let alone back in the 40's. The idea of breeding in more pure beings is closer to eugenics(actually it is eugenics) and that smacks of evolutionary theory far more than of religion. So fine, Christians get the common man and soldiers, but atheists get the ones doing experiments on people.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-10-2009, 10:16 PM   #52
Darth Avlectus
Your point?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Attack on Titan
Posts: 4,254
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Thanks?

You'll have to forgive me as I'm a little lost on this... compliment? I dunno.
Just that what I highlighted I've used numerous times (varied contexts and subjects) in passing on other threads and perhaps when we've talked one-on-one. The "clumping together" and "if you wanna take it that way it's your prerogative".

Not that I hold copyrights to it or anything. ZOMG--PLAGARISM! He's got a pitchfork--RUN!!!

Quote:
That pretty much sums up my point as far as the thread goes.
Uhh, glad I could help...even inadvertently? I just flat disavow Hitler as a christian and a human being is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
That doesn't surprise you, does it?
To which I reply and I quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butt-Head
Uhh, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Actually to be honest, it points more to his being an Agnostic rather than Christian. Nowhere does he say that God does not/may not exist. He speaks highly of God while talking negatively about the religious.
Ah, appealing to the "everyman", you think? You raise an excellent point.
With enough conviction of character, it would seem that he had a certain talent for for appealing to people. What a better way than this to make him seem down-to-earth. Like just another one of the guys.

I gather this rather palpable behavior of a leader can be defined as "A man amongst your troops." --Miyamoto Musashi. (I just can't seem to find it's exact wording in the book of five rings right this moment.)

Also relevant:
Quote:
1) the morality of the project is essential to the outcome of the project. You must know what it is you wish to accomplish and why. Be firm in your resolve and certain that your goals and captains agree with your desires and can be depended upon to take the matter to the final point. Do they believe strongly enough in your ideal to sacrifice everything that has to be sacrificed for the accomplishment of your goal? Do they believe in you as a leader? Do YOU believe in yourself as a leader? If everything is balanced in your favor then proceed to the next step. If not, rethink your attitudes and desires.
From Sun Tzu: The Art Of War the definitive interpretation of Sun Tzu's classic book of strategy , Ch1 or "Book 1" p.4-5. Stephen F. Kaufman, Hanshi 10th Dan. Tuttle Publishing, 1996.

I believe that Hitler understood this lesson all too well and used it to great (but terrible) effect. I have nothing to prove it except how history played out. When you come out of the ivory tower, and are seen amongst your men, they get the sense you are one of them; as opposed to one whose placed himself above his men. "Power trip".

Quote:
I know it can be confusing since almost everything I quoted could easily have been confused for quotes of Achilles posts, but I still think he was an Agnostic at best. Of course I just considder Hitler a psychotic f***er that would use whatever was available to control the population.
There are differing types of crazy and insanity and even those two are not one and the same, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
To say that people in this thread are bashing Christianity and 'preaching that Christians are intolerant' is grossly misrepresenting what this thread is about. Hitler was an evil man. Hitler was a Christian. What does this say about every other Christian? Absolutely nothing. This is not intolerance against Christianity.
There are some who will use it that way to deprecate it, even if it isn't that way as you've pointed out.

Hitler was Hitler. Using anything and everything is entirely possible as well.


Quote:
The idea that Germans are the master race is not inherently incompatible with Christianity. Unless I missed the verse that said 'Germans are not the master race'.
It doesn't mesh 100% the other way either.

Quote:
[SIZE="1"]Lastly, some grammar pet peeves. Atheist should not be capitalised unless it is at the beginning of a sentence and you should have used 'who' rather than 'whom'. You make this mistake a lot and it irks me every time.
Noted.

Quote:
EDIT: I'd like to add that saying 'Hitler didn't act like a true Christian' or variations thereof are just examples of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. Aside from that there is a lot of debate about what constitutes 'true' Christianity (especially among Christians) so this is obviously not a definition of 'Christian' we can work with.
Then I guess it was a battle for who reigns supreme and he lost.

Last I checked, disavowing is part of freethinking. FTR I've heard everything you've said. Though your sentiment wasn't at me specifically. Differing sides of the same coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
I think it is entirely possible that Hitler *did* merely pretend to be Christian to be well-liked amongst the Christian populace. I did not mean to imply that Hitler was, without a doubt, Christian. I just wanted to point out that some of the arguments presented here cannot be used to prove Hitler was not a Christian, and also that saying Hitler is a Christian is not the same as bashing Christianity.
To acknowledge your point: Not everyone conflates Hitler with Christianity, just those who want badly to put it down. I believe this to be the "dead horse" the side opposite you is beating. With all due respect, however, it is rather disconcerting to those who would wish to distance themselves from Hitler.

Quote:
True, it makes sense... but it's not proof either way. If we assume Hitler to be a Christian, it would still make sense for him to say those things.
Maybe, maybe not; could have worked even for hitler to just make believe like it. If you can sell it, they can buy it.

Quote:
Regarding Hitler's followers: They may not have known about the full extent of the horrors perpetrated by the nazi regime, but surely they must have agreed with some of Hitler's nazistic views, which he also spoke of in public and during speeches. So if we assume that Hitler said what the people wanted to hear, his followers were both Christians and nazis, or they would have disagreed with him and he would not have had the following he did.
Which I've insinuated this whole time. I believe I simply covered it above differently, in response following up Tommycat's post.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 05:04 AM   #53
Sir Phobos
Rookie
 
Sir Phobos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 95
No one wants to talk about how much Hitler admired Islam. Someone might get offended by that. It's also much safer to criticize Christianity.

The fact is, Hitler felt that Christianity needed some spicing up by creating 'Positive Christianity'. As a former Christian I couldn't care less whether someone thinks that Hitler was a practicing, believing and deeply faithful Christian. I simply disagree because of the overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. Did Christianity have some impact on Hitler's life? Sure. But really? To each his own I guess. Perhaps it's a knee jerk reaction to the fact that Stalin was an outspoken atheist.

"You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness….” (A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 142-143)


Hitler and the Grand Mufti talking smack about Jews.
Sir Phobos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 05:39 AM   #54
Darth Avlectus
Your point?
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Attack on Titan
Posts: 4,254
Current Game: Soul Calibur 5
^ Interesting. Former Christian?

Islam, you say? Hmm.

The religion of the Japanese? I don't think bhuddism is necessarily religious faith in the same way as is christianity, judaism, or islam. I've been lead to believe that there may have been both christian and muslim practitioners of bhuddism. I'm going off of memory (or lack thereof) in one of the texts I've read either about shaolin kung fu or the samurai.

I welcome your sentiment as an impartial party. Hard to find people like you around here.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 07:24 AM   #55
mur'phon
Whale eating vegetarian
 
mur'phon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southier than thou
Posts: 1,537
Forum Veteran 
The Japanese religion he refers to is Shintoism, which indeed does regard sacrifice highly.
mur'phon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 07:54 AM   #56
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Wait. So you see the atheists as being unlikely to be a part of it? As mentioned earlier, Hitler ORDERED his top men to remain a part of the church BECAUSE MOST of the SS was LEAVING the church.
Which may just be because they disliked organised religion rather than Christianity as a whole. Also, yes, I do find it unlikely for a political party that markets itself to the public as Christian to gain much support from atheists. It is possible that those who were in the party from the beginning were atheists but I haven't really seen any proof on that either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Evolution is more of an atheistic view than it is Christian even today. Let alone back in the 40's.
Actually I thought the Christian opposition to the theory of evolution came primarily from the Christian fundamentalist movement, which is even today a largely American and protestant movement. Germany is historically catholic, if I'm not mistaken (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of these).
If someone has any sources though on what the common German man of the 1930s and '40s thought of evolution (or if they knew about it at all) we could probably settle this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
The idea of breeding in more pure beings is closer to eugenics(actually it is eugenics) and that smacks of evolutionary theory far more than of religion.
But as far as I can tell from the sources provided in the first post Hitler did not base his ideas on the theory of evolution. Even if he had, he had some really warped view on the theory of evolution. He could have also had an extremely warped view on Christianity that inspired him to do what he did, or maybe just a warped view on humanity. Whatever he thought, it was wrong, but that doesn't say anything about where and what he got it from.
And as I said they're not even mutually exclusive; It is possible to be a Christian and believe in eugenics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
So fine, Christians get the common man and soldiers, but atheists get the ones doing experiments on people.
Does one 'side' have to be more evil than the other? In the end they were all nazis.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 08:59 AM   #57
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie View Post
Which may just be because they disliked organised religion rather than Christianity as a whole. Also, yes, I do find it unlikely for a political party that markets itself to the public as Christian to gain much support from atheists. It is possible that those who were in the party from the beginning were atheists but I haven't really seen any proof on that either way.


Actually I thought the Christian opposition to the theory of evolution came primarily from the Christian fundamentalist movement, which is even today a largely American and protestant movement. Germany is historically catholic, if I'm not mistaken (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of these).
If someone has any sources though on what the common German man of the 1930s and '40s thought of evolution (or if they knew about it at all) we could probably settle this matter.

But as far as I can tell from the sources provided in the first post Hitler did not base his ideas on the theory of evolution. Even if he had, he had some really warped view on the theory of evolution. He could have also had an extremely warped view on Christianity that inspired him to do what he did, or maybe just a warped view on humanity. Whatever he thought, it was wrong, but that doesn't say anything about where and what he got it from.
And as I said they're not even mutually exclusive; It is possible to be a Christian and believe in eugenics.



Does one 'side' have to be more evil than the other? In the end they were all nazis.
So sayeth Wiki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
The position of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has moved over the last two centuries from a large period of no official mention, to a statement of neutrality in the 1950s, to a more explicit acceptance in recent years. Today[update], the official Church's position remains a focus of controversy and is fairly non-specific, stating only that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a "special creation", and that the existence of God is required to explain the spiritual component of human origins. This view falls into the spectrum of viewpoints that are grouped under the concept of theistic evolution.[1][2]
So yes. In the 30's and 40's Catholic views were less likely to be in line with evolutionary theory.

When you take into account the actions of the Nazi party, and add in the comments made in Table Talk regarding religion and Christianity it paints a view closer to atheism rather than Christianity for Hitler. AND the book Inside the Third Riech (by Speer, who actually confirmed Table Talk's author) seems to back it up further that Christianity was only in favor so long as they openly backed National Socialism. Then add to it the threats and violence done against Christians and church leaders from the Nurenburg trials(link ALSO provided by me). Kinda hard to pretend that he was a Christian at the time. Perhaps you should actually read the links I provided rather than just dismissing them outright.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-11-2009, 02:50 PM   #58
Doomie
Do the Black Mage!
 
Doomie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The black void...
Posts: 2,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
When you take into account the actions of the Nazi party, and add in the comments made in Table Talk regarding religion and Christianity it paints a view closer to atheism rather than Christianity for Hitler. AND the book Inside the Third Riech (by Speer, who actually confirmed Table Talk's author) seems to back it up further that Christianity was only in favor so long as they openly backed National Socialism. Then add to it the threats and violence done against Christians and church leaders from the Nurenburg trials(link ALSO provided by me). Kinda hard to pretend that he was a Christian at the time. Perhaps you should actually read the links I provided rather than just dismissing them outright.
I am not pretending Hitler was a Christian, I simply think that the proof is inconclusive either way. However nazism did have a Christian following, and Hitler's ideas did not originate from an explicitly atheistic line of thought.

On the persecution of Christian churches: We had already established that Hitler wasn't fond of organised religion, and you don't have to be an atheist to persecute certain Christians. Perhaps the churches were persecuted for preaching the 'wrong kind' of Christianity (that clashed with the nazis' view of what Christianity should be), but this is speculation on my part. I just want to make it clear that their persecution of churches is no evidence of them being atheists and does not preclude them from having been Christians.

From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Elements of militarism found their way into Hitler’s own theology; he preached that his was a “true” or “master” religion, because it would “create mastery” and avoid comforting lies. Those who preached love and tolerance, “in contravention to the facts”, were said to be “slave” or “false” religions. The man who recognized these “truths”, Hitler continued, was said to be a “natural leader”, and those who denied it were said to be “natural slaves”. “Slaves” – especially intelligent ones, he claimed – were always attempting to hinder their masters by promoting false religious and political doctrines.
Regardless of Hitler's personal beliefs, this was the nazi party's stance on religion. It is not at all inconcievable for a Christian church that went against the nazi's to be branded "slaves" and "false". So the persecution of churches is not out of line with the public image that the nazi's portrayed.
Doomie is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 04:54 PM   #59
Sir Phobos
Rookie
 
Sir Phobos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
^ Interesting. Former Christian?

Islam, you say? Hmm.

The religion of the Japanese? I don't think bhuddism is necessarily religious faith in the same way as is christianity, judaism, or islam. I've been lead to believe that there may have been both christian and muslim practitioners of bhuddism. I'm going off of memory (or lack thereof) in one of the texts I've read either about shaolin kung fu or the samurai.

I welcome your sentiment as an impartial party. Hard to find people like you around here.
Yes that's true, I no longer believe in the 'sky bully' and it's been that way for about two years now. While there may be some rather large differences between Shintoism and Abrahamic faiths, I personally believe that Shintoism can be classified as an organized religion or 'faith' ... i.e. something that isn't real.

I think we can all agree that Hitler was his own God and he'd say and do anything to accomplish whatever the hell was going on in his mind. To say that Hitler was a religious warrior, i.e. fighting in the name of a power higher than himself, I think is going a bit too far. To connect Hitler's deeds with mainline Christianity is simply a jab at modern day Christians, which is fine... I'm all for offending folks but it seems like this one is getting a little worn out. Don't ya think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomie
We had already established that Hitler wasn't fond of organised religion, and you don't have to be an atheist to persecute certain Christians.
As I stated before Hitler obviously believed that there was something wrong with Germany's Christian community, not just little parts of it. Thus he created 'Positive Christianity', a state sponsored religious ideology that exalted the persecution of Jews, homosexuals, dissidents and the annexation of the world. Sounds a lot like modern day Islam and yes I said that.

Because I'm not in the Netherlands.

Last edited by Sir Phobos; 04-12-2009 at 05:01 PM.
Sir Phobos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 05:04 PM   #60
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Phobos View Post
To connect Hitler's deeds with mainline Christianity is simply a jab at modern day Christians, which is fine... I'm all for offending folks but it seems like this one is getting a little worn out. Don't ya think?
If someone claims to hold a superstitious belief, what is the mechanism for disproving that claim?

I can think of a handful of potential candidates, but none of them have been presented here. Perhaps you're oversimplifying the issue?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 05:45 PM   #61
Sir Phobos
Rookie
 
Sir Phobos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If someone claims to hold a superstitious belief, what is the mechanism for disproving that claim?
How academic. I guess you could poke Christians for the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda too right? While their beliefs are quite different from mainstream Christianity, they still believe in Christ and you could describe them as Christian.

Another safe way to look secular, that's my point.
Sir Phobos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 08:03 PM   #62
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
I'm sorry, I don't see where you answered my question.

Also if you intend to use "mainstream christianity" as a baseline, I'm afraid you're going to have to operationally define it. And I apologize in advance if that's too "academic", however I find it preferable to simply making stuff up as I go along.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 08:25 PM   #63
Sir Phobos
Rookie
 
Sir Phobos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 95
This is where I have to answer to you right?

"Mainstream Christianity" is a broad term indeed but if you can't grasp the point (or choose to ignore) what I was spelling out to you then that's your problem, not mine. I think someone is feeling a little nitpicky today.
Sir Phobos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 08:39 PM   #64
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
I've always believed that the sign of a sound argument is it's ability to stand up to "nitpicky-ness".

The point is that you're throwing terms around haphazardly and expecting everyone to fall over and accept them within the context of your choosing, which coincidentally is the context in which your "arguments" actually make sense.

If you wish to show that you are right and everyone who takes Hitler at his word that he was a Christian is wrong, then you'll need to respond to the question posed in post #60.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 09:47 PM   #65
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Phobos View Post
As I stated before Hitler obviously believed that there was something wrong with Germany's Christian community, not just little parts of it. Thus he created 'Positive Christianity', a state sponsored religious ideology that exalted the persecution of Jews, homosexuals, dissidents and the annexation of the world. Sounds a lot like modern day Islam and yes I said that.
I'd have to agree with your assessment on that point to an extent, but in all honesty I wouldn't say all muslims are that way. Just for some reason the moderates aren't willing to stand up to the radicals.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 10:01 PM   #66
Sir Phobos
Rookie
 
Sir Phobos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The point is that you're throwing terms around haphazardly and expecting everyone to fall over and accept them...
Who said I wanted that? Accept this then: Muhammed was a pedophile and Islam encourages the rape of children across the world. I hope that offends someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If you wish to show that you are right and everyone who takes Hitler at his word that he was a Christian is wrong, then you'll need to respond to the question posed in post #60.
Thank you for illustrating just how unaware of what my point really is. I also find it funny that anyone would take Hitler at his word (word for word) when he spoke in public.

There is a lot of contradictory information in terms of what Hitler said about Christianity both in private and public. It also depends greatly on one's own view of what constitutes being a Christian and how Christianity impacted this individual in particular. We could go on and on you see? And I bet you'd like that. Oh and just for fun, how about this: Hitler was a Christian! You see it makes no difference to me.

Either way it comes out the same, it's a tired old argument for people who have a bone to pick with Christianity...a religion that has actually gotten over the whole 'beheading' and 'stoning' type of thing. I hear that Pat Robertson allows his wife to drive an automobile also. That's what I was trying to put across to you. Hopefully you can get it by now

Now if that offends you then okay, I'm happy you feel that way.
Sir Phobos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 11:00 PM   #67
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
So the only evidence being presented in favor of Hitler being Christian is his PUBLIC words, not his private conversations and deeds?

Nixon was not a crook
Bush Sr instituted no new taxes
Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman Monica Lewinsky
GW Bush was a uniter, not a divider.

Public figures LIE in public. Big shocker there. I've presented evidence of private conversations in which Hitler shows a negative attitude towards Christianity. How about rather than just repeating the same thing over and over those of you that still believe that he was a Christian actually post contradicting evidence that is not his public speeches.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 11:29 PM   #68
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Does this sort of dodge work for you often? I'm assuming that you're conceding the point, since you didn't actually address it.
The point you were attempting to make had already been debunked, Hitler's private conversations indicate that he despised Christians as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Is it as unoriginal and overplayed as the whole "Hitler was actually an atheist thing" too? I only see you arguing one side of this debate.
Well unlike the Hitler is Christian argument, there is actual proof that can be considered that indicates Hitler was an atheist rather than what Hitler tried to lead people to believe he was out of political expediency.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 11:31 PM   #69
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The point you were attempting to make had already been debunked, Hitler's private conversations indicate that he despised Christians as well.

Well unlike the Hitler is Christian argument, there is actual proof that can be considered that indicates Hitler was an atheist rather than what Hitler tried to lead people to believe he was out of political expediency.
Garfy says it, therefore it must be true.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-12-2009, 11:33 PM   #70
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
Not proof. Evidence strongly indicating, but not proof.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 12:54 AM   #71
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
So, Hitler is to be taken at his "words" no matter how contradictory and be considered as a reliable source of his own beliefs, yet that same person would say that the bible is disqualified as meaningful due to many apparent contradictions. Convenient....


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 01:20 AM   #72
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
I would argue that, while we may never know whether or not Hitler was an atheist, agnostic, or devoutly religious, his words reveal the motivations and inspirations behind his actions. Indeed, the very act of exterminating Jews comes right out of the Old Testament. By analysis we're applying here, if we're to conclude that Hitler was an agnostic or an atheist (or at least a non-Christian), then we can also conclude that it is equally likely that Moses, Joshua and/or David were as well since they committed similar mass democides or genocides. Hitler paled in comparison to these mass-murderers who are revered by modern Jews and Christians today. Ironic.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 02:08 AM   #73
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
Interesting.....you're contending that Moses, Joshua and David were each individually responsible for the slaughter and or deaths of >40 million people in their respective lifetimes? C'mon, I though you were supposed to be more rational than that.

Btw, didn't actually have you in mind re the comment about biblical relevance.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 03:35 AM   #74
Tommycat
º¿º>^..^<
 
Tommycat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,577
Current Game: Real Life 1.0(BETA)
Forum Veteran 
post 5-11
post 67

Do you concede the points?


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Tommycat is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 05:46 AM   #75
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,631
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Just to jump in regarding the SS belt buckles mentioned earlier - Gott mit uns was used as a motto by the Wehrmacht - which was separate from the SS - 'Gott mit uns' was a sort of unofficial motto of the German Army for considerably longer than the Third Reich (it was on the inside of helmets during WW1).

The motto used by the Waffen-SS was Meine Ehre heißt Treue (My Honour is Loyalty). I don't know how much relevance it has to the debate now, but I felt it was an important distinction to make.






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 09:52 AM   #76
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Interesting.....you're contending that Moses, Joshua and David were each individually responsible for the slaughter and or deaths of >40 million people in their respective lifetimes? C'mon, I though you were supposed to be more rational than that.

Btw, didn't actually have you in mind re the comment about biblical relevance.
Rationally? Rationally I'm saying that wiping out an entire culture is more significant than wiping out a portion of it. Moses et al. committed genocide. Hitler committed democide, even though the numbers killed were probably higher.

It can also be argued that given the global populations, the numbers killed in antiquity (at least claimed to have been murdered by these supposedly pious men) were more significance if you account for the increases in population as a whole.

Rationally speaking, that is.

So, yes, I'm contending that Moses et al., if they were real people who actually did the deeds attributed to them in biblical mythology, were worse for society than their 20th century counterpart in Europe. Clearly, they would have murdered more if more were available. They just ran out of victims once every "last man, woman, child and child in the belly" were slain.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 10:46 AM   #77
Totenkopf
English spoken in What
 
Totenkopf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: What?
Posts: 4,787
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Member The Walking Carpets Guild Member Forum Veteran 
C'mon, Skin, you able to prove any of those guys killed whole races (hence genocide, not merely attempted like in 20th century)? "Mass murder" in a localized area doesn't necessarily equate to genocide. Perhaps closer to your charges of demiocide, but you provide no numbers by which to actually judge their "misdeeds" to put any of it in true context. Just claims of "divine orders" and assumptions.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
Totenkopf is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 02:09 PM   #78
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Of course I don't think these things actually happened. Its biblical mythology. But there are those that *do* believe they occurred -these are believing Christians who read of these attrocities in the bible and believe it to be the will of their god. The act of accepting these events actually occurred implies that one believes the bible is true. Believing the bible to be true generally implies that one is a Christian.

If Hitler modeled his attempted extermination of the Jews on the exterminations god is alleged to have instructed Moses et al. to perform, it implies that Hitler believed the bible true. If he believed the bible true, this implies that he was, generally, a Christian at least at some point.

This is all I'm saying.

It is very possible that Hitler came up with his extermination principles on his own, however, his words refute this since he cites biblical exterminations and motivations on several occasions.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 02:11 PM   #79
GarfieldJL
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,856
You know at this point if someone from an online Jewish community saw this, they'd go ballistic, they take stuff like anti-sematism very seriously.

I'm being serious here, comments comparing Moses or King David to Hitler is rather inflamatory and not a laughing matter. Quite frankly, it could get the administrators of Lucasforums sued. Cause Hitler used all these trumped up claims to persecute Jews and do his best to exterminate them. So they have every reason to take something like this as an attempt to justify another Holocaust.


Btw, SkinWalker a lot of the stuff in the Bible in my opinion did happen but what we don't have is the entire account. For all we know they killed everyone at point X, while they ignored the people that fled the area at the start of the fighting because they were noncombatants. Thus following that line of reasoning, the number of civilian casualties may have been relatively small. The Jewish people did have rules, and going after defenseless people that did not raise a weapon to them far from it, they were just trying to get out of the way would have been considered sinful.

If they were at ground zero in the middle of the camp that's one thing, but if they were trying to get out of the area at the start of the fight, they would most likely have let those individuals leave unopposed.

Last edited by GarfieldJL; 04-13-2009 at 02:18 PM.
GarfieldJL is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-13-2009, 02:17 PM   #80
SkinWalker
Anthropologist
 
SkinWalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Give critical thought a chance
Posts: 2,709
LFN Staff Member 
Complete bollocks. There's no anti-semitism here. The offended Israelies would first need to demonstrate that these mythical characters existed to have any rational complaint to begin and that the comparisson is unfounded to round their complaint out.

In the first place, there's little likelihood that these fictional characters can be shown to be real; in the second place, if they were real, then a casual look at the texts that modern Israelies so irrational hold to would reveal an evil, murderous set of genocides and democides.

Moses, David, Joshua et al are the worst possible role models for humanity and we might as well choose Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

Finally, the Lucas Forums is in absolutely no danger of law suit and this is your simple objection to anyone criticizing a superstition which you hold to be true to the point of delusion (apparently). QED.


A Hot Cup of Joe - My Blog

Not finding an intellectual challenge in the Swamp? Try the Senate Chambers!

Evolution and How We Know It's Right - Post your thoughts!
Debate Strategies & Tactics - Polish your online debate skills and offer your own advice
SkinWalker is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > JediKnight Series > Community > Senate Chambers > Hitler, The Nazi Party, and Christianity

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.