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Old 04-18-2009, 08:06 PM   #1
Kyvios
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"Life After People"

I'm not sure how many of you seen the Preview over the TV for the History's channels tv series Life After People.

http://www.history.com/content/life_after_people/videos

Watching all those video's got me thinking, how many of those disasters were more likely then the others? Since I have a lack of faith in humanity as a whole I'd have to say a Nuclear Winter. Or Possibly some type of plague.

Note that if you don't want the show ruined then you probably shouldn't watch the little clips they give. But I think it's a show worth watching.

Discuss what you think is more possible to destroy human life? It could be something the show gives, or something else entirely.

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Old 04-18-2009, 09:17 PM   #2
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Didn't we already have a thread on something like nuclear warheads in another thread?

I would say either nukes, ensuing cold wars enveloping the world trying to get around it, natural disasters, or something similar...Maybe a plague?
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:42 AM   #3
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This is a different topic--I'll allow it as a new thread.

I'm thinking the most likely disasters would be either nuclear or biological, e.g. if the smallpox virus got 'accidentally' released. I think my generation is the last to have been vaccinated against it. If Ebola ever went pandemic, we'd be screwed. The mortality rate for it is horrendous, and anyone who did survive would require huge amounts of medical care. The system would be completely overwhelmed.


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Old 04-19-2009, 01:12 AM   #4
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Since I have a lack of faith in humanity
After watching those clips, I think I joined you in that believe.

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Old 04-19-2009, 04:34 AM   #5
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@ Jae: well, okay your majesty.

@ Totenkopf: Now dammit, I want your sentiment on this issue, after all it's the end of the world we're talking about here.

@ thread: There are so many one word things to reason for that which could destroy us. Stupidity, ignorance, greed, etc. I could not catalogue them all if I even cared enough to want to.

It's a hard sell but it's a tossup between:

WAR: Cold and/or hot, with or without weapons of mass destruction. However, such things are crude compared to the level of destruction caused by mass ignorance over time it seems. Or could I be wrong?

Disease: naturally occurring, man made in a lab, or man caused as a result of socioeconomic caste claiming the underclasses.

Natural disasters: Pretty much self-explanatory and somewhat covered above in diseases, but here puts emphasis to catastrophic geographic activity, weather that threatens to wipe the human race from the face of the planet, volcanoes, etc.

Technology: While I'm not sure if we have approached the age of Isaac Asimov's novels (reiterated through Terminator, mega man, I robot, etc.) I can see how we could do ourselves in by outsmarting ourselves. While I do not foresee that Commander Sigma is about to commit mass genocide or that t-101 in a mass army is going to hunt for John Connor, I do see a computer somewhere deciding that humans are inferior at one point and thus should be eliminated...and acting upon that because it is in charge of critical things. If it isn't already happening slowly.

Astronomic turbulence and activity:...hasn't claimed us yet, but you never know. Aren't we due for planet Nebaroo to come near our planet and throw our orbit off?

Which one of these do I think is most likely? They all seem roughly as likely as one another which is the scary part. I suspect that so long as it's a stalemate like it is, statistically it'll all remain as it is. This is already happening. And if one came down, everything else might just as well happen, too. I can't tell which one it'll be.


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Old 04-19-2009, 05:23 AM   #6
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Apathy.


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Old 04-19-2009, 05:43 AM   #7
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Apathy.


IS DEATH.
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:47 AM   #8
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I'm hoping for alien invasion myself

I really don't think the end of humanity will be man made. It seems more likely that there will be a NEO that would hit us. NASA is tracking several objects that have the potential to intersect the planet. I think the likely cause for extinction would be either biological in nature(perhaps even a wierd disease) or astrological in nature. A large enough solar flare could impact the Earth. Almost anything else we would have time to adapt our environment. There are safe locations in the US where an entire city's worth of personnel would be able to survive for a significant amount of time. Something like a solar flare would make even those uninhabitable.


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Old 04-19-2009, 08:40 AM   #9
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Natural: not many forces of nature will be disastrous enough to wipe out civilization on a massive scale. In 1816, Tambora erupted and it caused the year without a summer. That one event lead to roughly 50,000 deaths by the global atmospheric impact to agriculture. Still, 50,000 was a tiny fraction of the global population at that time. The only one event that would eradicate most of the global population would be the eruption of a flood bassalt or meteorite impact.

Manmade: Lots of things will lead to these outcomes. Nuclear winter... most likely single event that could lead to complete destruction in a matter of days. Climate change... that depends. Urban runoff is a cause of increased flooding in areas. The destruction of the ozone layer is a very serious issue because ozone reduces the amount of UV radiation that the Earth receives and can't easily be fixed. I don't believe global warming is mostly manmade, but the threat of Greenland's glaciers melting off and entering the Atlantic Ocean threatens the gulf stream... not leading to destruction, but creates chaos for a region that represents 10 of Earth's population.

Famine: This will be the most likely to occur in my opinion. The agricultural land that feeds the people of Asia depends heavily on water collected from non-renewable sources. Once these fresh water reserves are depleted, there will be a mass reduction of the populations and then a new, reduced carrying capacity for the areas that would need desalinization just to provide for human consumption. On top of that, the use of agriculture destroys native vegetation and creates homogeneity instead of diverse ecosystems. The more diverse, the more resilient ecosystems become. This applies to gaps in the food chain leading to mass extinctions as well.

Disease: Not very likely, I think. In our day in age, there is the concern of transportation making the world smaller. If a plague breaks out, we have advanced medical research facilities and experts who make it less likely that another black plague will cause death on a massive scale. The reason why there was a population explosion in the last two centuries was because the death rate plummeted as a result of medical research and sanitation technologies.

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Old 04-19-2009, 09:07 AM   #10
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this is not the first time History Channel has aired this series. I caught it the first time through and it is pretty interesting imo. They follow several major cities and landmarks and their simulated condition as they go through the years.

As far as what might end humanity on this planet...well we certainly have the nuclear capability to do so, but if one were to consider the scenario in Fallout for instance, even in that extreme case humanity still survived.

I think it is possible for humanity to destroy itself but I would agree with others who have said that its destruction is far more likely from natural means such as objects from space, or perhaps some extreme disaster.


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Old 04-19-2009, 09:54 AM   #11
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Since all major alternatives have been covered, I'll just try to focus on my interpretations of some of them:

Technology - while I agree with GTASWC on most of the things he said in this regard, I think, however, that if humanity is put down by technological creations, it will not be by a computer that has become self-aware, or has decided that humans are inferior and need to be exterminated. Instead, I think that a more likely version is that we be destroyed by a machine with a bug in its software. Sounds funny? Well, think about it - so far nobody has managed to create a completely bug free software and, actually, nobody is really trying to do it. What programmers do (and I speak as a student of IT and programming languages in particular) is try to minimize the possibility of a bug occurring.

Wars - well we are pretty much headed to this outcome with all the religious fanatics and the so-called "War on Terror", though I'm not up to date with the US government's current views and plans in this regard. I do remember hearing something about Obama being against further pointless wars, but I'll leave this to be discussed by people more informed than me.

Disease - well, with AIDS still being incurable, homosexuality being considered a lifestyle and sex being used in everything, because "sex sells", I guess this is a very possible way of ending humanity.

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Old 04-19-2009, 11:07 AM   #12
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Wow, pessimism much? We'll survive. Don't ask me how- it's called optimism.


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Old 04-19-2009, 11:30 AM   #13
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This all assumes that humans are still vulnerable to these things when they happen. Assuming we still haven't developed the tech to literally control the environment, we may have advanced upon ourselves enough, either technologically or biologically to survive. If we enchance ourselves by either making us more disease resilient, or by replacing our bodies with machines, we can rule out disease, at least biological disease, someone could still make a computer-virus, but at the very least, we've eliminated one possibility.

it we make ourselves more resilient physically, we'll be able to adapt more readily to climate changes, cold or hot.

Of course, what the show doesn't take into account is that if we had a nuclear war, nature would get hit pretty hard too.

Still I don't think nuclear war would be the end of us all, this is a very big planet and nukes are really only going to fall on the major powers. The probability that someone will nuke Chile or the Congo is rather low. While we could still have nuclear winter, humans have survived the ice ages, so I don't think we'd all be dead.

Disease again is more likely to affect major population centers, and leave small tribal groups untouched.

I honestly don't think there's any disaster that would destroy every last bit of humanity. I think most "civilized" nations would be gone, but considering that we can grow plants in water under artificial light indoors and we're on our way to growing meat from stem-cells, I think a good portion of "developed" society could withstand most disasters.


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Old 04-19-2009, 11:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Wow, pessimism much? We'll survive. Don't ask me how- it's called optimism.
I'm just pointing out my opinion on the subject. I'm certainly not saying I'd like it to happen, or that it's definitely going to happen, but out of all the possibilities, those are the most probable, IMO, unless we as a species change our way of thinking.

@Web Rider: Those are all good points, but the self-augmentation and machine bodies you mentioned are still in the domains of Sci-Fi.

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Old 04-19-2009, 12:21 PM   #15
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Hmm...I think the show looked rather interesting, and was definatley exploring an interesting subject...but at the rate mankind continues to grow, it may be quite a bit before everyone breathes their last breath. At least, that's what I'm hoping, the future remains to be seen.

I can see that nearly everyone before just [i]had[i/] to point out the good stuff {grrr}, but everything said is very much a real possibility.

A few of my opinions...

A. The Environment and supporting our growing population

Seeing as mankind continues to progress and expand, we takeup more resources. Even as we try to find an alternative, the Earth can only support our size for so long, so sooner or later, when their are some ought maybe 30 billion, we may die, or have to leave, lest we crowd ourselves to death...

There is also natural disasters, as we've seen many many happen. Though I doubt this due to the fact that we haven't gotten killed yet...
B. {As many said..} War

In a disturbing way, war is actually what keeps the human race in check, so to say. It also maintains discipline and organization as well, as strange as it seems. I don't mean to sound pro-war, because it's absolutley horrible, and we've gotten better at killing eachother every time, but still, if we didn't, we may not have gotten as far as we have, or we may be overcrowded.

But still, we are not above accidently killing everyone, though I doubt that due to when wars happen, and one side is trying to exterminate the other, one out of the two usually survive. Though that side may be downsized, one side nearly always survives.

That's just a few, but alot of the others beat me to the others, perhaps more later. But from right now, viewing to the future, I think we may be here for awhile....


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Old 04-20-2009, 01:46 AM   #16
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I just want to point out I'm not being rude with my fervor in exploring and asking questions...I'm not intentionally trying to make a fool out of anyone or prove/disprove by inundation. (TC, eat your heart out! ) Part of it is that I want to see just how fully we have explored our ideas on this subject as this "survival" actually fascinates me quite a bit.

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Technology - while I agree with GTASWC on most of the things he said in this regard, I think, however, that if humanity is put down by technological creations, it will not be by a computer that has become self-aware, or has decided that humans are inferior and need to be exterminated. Instead, I think that a more likely version is that we be destroyed by a machine with a bug in its software. Sounds funny? Well, think about it - so far nobody has managed to create a completely bug free software and, actually, nobody is really trying to do it. What programmers do (and I speak as a student of IT and programming languages in particular) is try to minimize the possibility of a bug occurring.
Actually, I was just thinking on what I said today. I've had a few programmer friends tell me that making self aware programming is impossible. (Ironic, here I am again, this time my friend in this case is igyman ). I retract that part then: Unless we have found some way to synthesize a sentient and self aware life--something that (so far as we know) in terms of science has not been done. Nor have we been able to determine whence beings become sentient. I still maintain, more or less, it would be a case of outsmarting ourselves.

Somebody please correct me if evolution somehow has explained how non-sentient beings have evolved into sentient beings, or if there are any self aware creatures you know of that science does not.

Quote:
<snip>
Disease - well, with AIDS still being incurable, homosexuality being considered a lifestyle and sex being used in everything, because "sex sells", I guess this is a very possible way of ending humanity.
Very true. Funny how this seems to be conveniently ignored in the USA as well. A mentality developed as a result of "what I don't know can't hurt me" despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However this is not the #1 killer.

I'd add several things like hepatitis to the fray. Although it is possible to immunize against it...I do not believe Hep C has a cure..about Hep A & B, I know even less. Just know my employer got Hep C from a blood transfusion for surgery, and has about 10-15 years left to live.

What of Heart Disease? While this is largely to do with lifestyle and nutrition, there are some other factors I think. But just another to consider.

Also Let us not forget drugs through which communicable disease is spread as well. And blood transfusion. Amongst a number of other things to be sure.

Cancers: still so much that we do not know about cancer. I daresay I'm not even qualified to talk about deadly cancer. However, it is reality. Amidst the unknown, there are known factors that put people at risk for cancer like lifestyle, diet, genes, activity, possibly usages of devices. I'd reccomend you live a healthy life and get checked up regularly. How many different kinds of cancer are there? Hundreds? Thousands?

What about that Chinese bird flu virus? That H5N1 (or something like that) virus pandemic that was feared to be spreading around the world at a pandemic rate back in '06-'07? How come I don't hear about it anymore?

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This all assumes that humans are still vulnerable to these things when they happen. Assuming we still haven't developed the tech to literally control the environment, we may have advanced upon ourselves enough, either technologically or biologically to survive.
Just out of curiosity, are you referring to HAARP by any chance? I've heard/read some pretty wacky **** in this area. I might be able to elaborate to a point on this--but ultimately it may still only be speculative. PLus it all goes back to Nikola Tesla. Igyman is probably better infromed than I in that area.

Though plausible sounding...I'm afraid I'll have to agree with igyman. Weather control still sounds too far fetched.

Quote:
If we enchance ourselves by either making us more disease resilient, or by replacing our bodies with machines, we can rule out disease, at least biological disease,
Are you suggesting bio-eugenics, or naturally strengthening ourselves against disease?
Quote:
someone could still make a computer-virus, but at the very least, we've eliminated one possibility.
Perhaps, but cybernetics would have to have advanced pretty far by that point. Much further than the crude stages of present.

Though its plot is over simplified, this virus biz sounds awful similar to the Mega Man X series.

The cybernetic enhancements also vaguely reminds me of Armitage, Terminator, Ghost in the Shell, X-Men, and god knows what else that also hint at such things. I am trying to keep serious with you here, however it is hard when what you say is speculation at best colored by popular sci-fi. If you have ideas, I would very much like to hear them. I won't deny they might be a possibility, but without some kind of benchmark or barometer I can't really say how likely any of that really is.

Quote:
it we make ourselves more resilient physically, we'll be able to adapt more readily to climate changes, cold or hot.

Of course, what the show doesn't take into account is that if we had a nuclear war, nature would get hit pretty hard too.

Still I don't think nuclear war would be the end of us all, this is a very big planet and nukes are really only going to fall on the major powers. The probability that someone will nuke Chile or the Congo is rather low. While we could still have nuclear winter, humans have survived the ice ages, so I don't think we'd all be dead.
Well, we'd have cockroaches and rats to keep us company.
Quote:
Disease again is more likely to affect major population centers, and leave small tribal groups untouched.

I honestly don't think there's any disaster that would destroy every last bit of humanity. I think most "civilized" nations would be gone, but considering that we can grow plants in water under artificial light indoors and we're on our way to growing meat from stem-cells, I think a good portion of "developed" society could withstand most disasters.
Fair enough.

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<snip> but out of all the possibilities, those are the most probable, IMO, unless we as a species change our way of thinking.
QFT and emphasis!

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Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
A. The Environment and supporting our growing population

*brevity* lest we crowd ourselves to death...
This overlaps with disease, BTW.

Then as I hinted before: What of letting certain, (otherwise preventable diseases) claim the underclasses? That is what will happen. Like it or not, the human sustainability of the world is a bubble and it will inflate and deflate, and so forth, until it pops. It bothers me, but I don't see that much can be done about it.


Quote:
There is also natural disasters, as we've seen many many happen. Though I doubt this due to the fact that we haven't gotten killed yet...
Then do you care to explain further? What natural disaster(s) and how?


Quote:
B. {As many said..} War

In a disturbing way, war is actually what keeps the human race in check, so to say. It also maintains discipline and organization as well, as strange as it seems. I don't mean to sound pro-war, because it's absolutley horrible, and we've gotten better at killing eachother every time, but still, if we didn't, we may not have gotten as far as we have, or we may be overcrowded.
Which was hinted at in the nuclear arms thread, I believe. It's very precarious and grim. So morbid. Yet the truth of the matter is that if we didn't have this threat of hot war looming over our heads (make pretend there were once again no WMDs), we would have constant bedlams driven by ambition and military aggression until there were the few strong ruling over everyone with an iron fist. Nothing would ever get done for the better. I'd imagine that in this case scenario, though, many would still be killed and it would take a very long slow and painful time to do it.

I guess also I'd like to add these categories:

Accidental: could be related to any of what has already been discussed above. A bug in a program, stupidity, carelessness...mmm, hard to say specifics on large scale unless I basically include one of the above categories or else it becomes individual.

Lifestyle in general: aside from the above, a major determination in one's death is how one lived. Igyman touched on it above I believe, when he said "unless we change our thinking". Igy, you are a genius my friend. On an individual level it may not seem to affect the world in any big way, but in these times of economic hardship we are seeing how irresponsible lifestyle on a large scale can have tremendous consequences, no? I would have to say this is yet another category in itself.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:22 AM   #17
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this is not the first time History Channel has aired this series. I caught it the first time through and it is pretty interesting imo. They follow several major cities and landmarks and their simulated condition as they go through the years.
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Wow, pessimism much? We'll survive. Don't ask me how- it's called optimism.
Pessimism...either you are right, or pleasantly surprised.

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Old 04-20-2009, 09:14 AM   #18
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Look, I figure we're going to have a few more wars over really stupid stuff like opposing ideologies and oil, but we're not going to destroy ourselves. Natural disasters? We can take em'. Even if the entire structure of society throughout the world crumbles into dust, the Human species will survive.

The worst that could happen is a nuclear holocost or cosmically caused extinction event. (No, asteroids don't count. We can blow up asteroids any day.) I'm talking Solar Flares and the always possible but unlikely Gamma Ray Burst.


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Old 04-20-2009, 12:57 PM   #19
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Just out of curiosity, are you referring to HAARP by any chance? I've heard/read some pretty wacky **** in this area. I might be able to elaborate to a point on this--but ultimately it may still only be speculative. PLus it all goes back to Nikola Tesla. Igyman is probably better infromed than I in that area.
No, I think HAARP is mostly conspiracy-theory BS. I'm not talking about anything we have now, just speculating on the concept of future-tech which could do those things.

Quote:
Though plausible sounding...I'm afraid I'll have to agree with igyman. Weather control still sounds too far fetched.
Which is the same thing everyone thought of every major technological advancement in history.

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Are you suggesting bio-eugenics, or naturally strengthening ourselves against disease?
Both I suppose. But I'm generally talking about genetic manipulation to improve resistances, not drinking more Ginko.

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Perhaps, but cybernetics would have to have advanced pretty far by that point. Much further than the crude stages of present.
Well yes, but it's not like we're going to have a nuclear war tomorrow, so as long as we're speculating about the future, I'll speculate about the future.

Quote:
Though its plot is over simplified, this virus biz sounds awful similar to the Mega Man X series.
Never played/seen em.

Quote:
The cybernetic enhancements also vaguely reminds me of Armitage, Terminator, Ghost in the Shell, X-Men, and god knows what else that also hint at such things. I am trying to keep serious with you here, however it is hard when what you say is speculation at best colored by popular sci-fi. If you have ideas, I would very much like to hear them. I won't deny they might be a possibility, but without some kind of benchmark or barometer I can't really say how likely any of that really is.
Any and or all of them could be applied. I'm sorry if pop-scifi beat me to the punch, but most of their ideas come from writers and thinkers before them. The concept that humans may built robots that replace them or become robots is hardly a new concept and how likely it is is rather irrelevant. We're all just playing the guessing game at what's going to be the end of us, so if we're gonna talk about what'll be the end of us "down the line" we might as well discuss what could prevent it.

The Japanese already have cybernetics to assist people who are paraplegic, sure they're only on the outside, but give it some time and they might just cut the legs off and replace them.


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Old 04-20-2009, 06:04 PM   #20
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No, I think HAARP is mostly conspiracy-theory BS. I'm not talking about anything we have now, just speculating on the concept of future-tech which could do those things.
Like I said, ultimately speculative. So far as what's going on? Yeah, I'll say something does smell rank about it.

The only things about it that seem even remotely real are radio wave devices (hell if I know what they *actually do*), and screwing around with the ionoshpere which doesn't exactly sound smart.

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Which is the same thing everyone thought of every major technological advancement in history.
Do you have at least some ideas, then?

Suffice it to say to your challenge: We'll see. Not saying it couldn't happen, but in light of not really having any ideas how it'll have to remain a far off dream. We're certainly allowed to dream, though.

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Both I suppose. But I'm generally talking about genetic manipulation to improve resistances, not drinking more Ginko.
Where did I imply or express anything about ginko?

I meant the natural *natural* way of strengthening immune systems...

So far as cybernetics. Yeah, it could happen.

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Well yes, but it's not like we're going to have a nuclear war tomorrow, so as long as we're speculating about the future, I'll speculate about the future.



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Never played/seen em.
Just in passing, advanced robotics yielded sentient robots "Reploids". Eventually a virus was evolved or created. It advanced so much it became devastating to both the natural and the technological. Anymore and I'll spoil it for you. Or at least as much I gathered from its rail thin story. Nice if you're into retro platform shooter rehashes.



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We're all just playing the guessing game at what's going to be the end of us, so if we're gonna talk about what'll be the end of us "down the line" we might as well discuss what could prevent it.
Well, nothing wrong with that I guess. Certainly invites a whole lot of opportunities for murphy's law or the accident phenomenon to botch stuff. But yeah, I do enjoy having another side to it. Prevention.

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The Japanese already have cybernetics to assist people who are paraplegic, sure they're only on the outside, but give it some time and they might just cut the legs off and replace them.
Yeah, I can see that in the next 20-30 years...or more like 40-50 considering how things are going nowadays.

For that: Bone, ligament, and joint replacement has already advanced substantially since the last 3-4 decades. In fact my father is getting a knee replacement tomorrow.


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Old 04-21-2009, 02:34 PM   #21
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Don't forget this one.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:07 PM   #22
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That's kind of funny, TK, b/c I saw Neil-DeGrasse-Tyson on some show the other day talking about how a cool way to go would be for earth to get hit by a roaming black hole and watch as his body got stretched by gravitational forces till it ultimately disintegrated.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 04-21-2009, 10:53 PM   #23
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:50 AM   #24
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No, I think it was from his appearance in one of those "different ways to end the world" type shows. Sorry I can't be more specific. He was dressed more informally and the cgi behind him showed a roaming black hole as it approached the earth and the afteraffects, where he goes on to make his explanation about the effects it would ultimately have on the surface of the planet and the people as well. Seems as if guys like him and Michio Kaku would make a lecture series entertaining. They both seem to have a sense of showmanship and passion for their material.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:58 AM   #25
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I think humans will be around for awhile, even though modern society and our current world system wont last forever.

Nuclear War would be an easy way to end everything, but I honestly think that the world in general has enough common sense to realize that every country would effectively be killing themselves to do so. We fight wars better when we know we can win them.

We've eventually evolve or die off naturally I'm guessing. We'll change into something else, perhaps gaining a bigger brain or nature shrinking it based on the situation. Plagues and such will hit, but by the sheer power of genetics its near impossible for an outbreak of almost anything to kill us. Hell, there are people who are immune to AIDS.

I doubt we'll ever branch of into space though. Physics will probably hold us back on that one.

But, unless like the show we just disappear in an instant, the world will change with us and we'll eventually get to the point when we aren't human anymore, and then our chapter will have closed.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:17 AM   #26
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Z-day?

I still think that we would survive almost anything short of the Earth being totally demolished. Any number of situations would make it difficult to survive, however for total eradication of the human race, we'd have to have some form of astronomical event. The most realistic of the events is a solar flare reaching us, flashing the whole planet. I dunno, maybe Venus could explode and cause Earth to shift it's orbit.


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Old 04-24-2009, 09:35 AM   #27
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75.000 years ago, mankind supposedly almost died out as a result of some volcanic eruption on Sumatra:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory


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Old 04-27-2009, 04:34 PM   #28
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SWINE FLU WILL WIPE OUT THE HUMAN RACE AS WE KNOW IT
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