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Old 04-12-2009, 02:47 AM   #41
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Perhaps... but the next person appointed will also have background issues that if somebody wishes to make a federal case about, they will.

I just don't think you can get that far along in public life without having SOME skeletons in the closet.

Maybe the person's black marks shouldn't be in the same field they are being appointed for... but if that's somebody's field of expertise, then they will have spent a lot of time in it... and made a lot of mistakes and have produced a lot of wreckage along the way.

There's is nobody capable of doing a cabinet level job with a totally clean record.

This current round of folks should have been vetted better... but there's also the theory of "to catch a thief..."

After all: who knows all the ways of a tax cheat better than: a tax cheat? You want to track down and catch people doing it? Then you had better have somebody who has already gotten away with it on your side.



I'm being facetious, of course... but I don't think that someone who has been around long enough to be expert-level enough for the cabinet will ever be truly spotless. All the vetting in the world with never find that perfect human.

People who clearly break the law should be punished by it (at whatever level of government they exist at.)

But it was mainly all the pointless partisan griping and trying to smear the other side's choices for appointees for alleged shady dealings and questionable moral choices (that can't be proven and/or prosecuted in court) that I was really trying to get at.


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Old 04-12-2009, 01:42 PM   #42
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Well, the only caveat I'd add to that is that is there really no one else qualified or is the person doing the picking casting a wide enough net to pick a largely noncontroversial candidate? When you think about the fact that candidates have anywhere from a minimum of days to as much as the beggining of the election campaigns to start looking for such candidates, it's a little hard to say..."geez, we couldn't really find someone else."


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Old 04-12-2009, 01:55 PM   #43
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Fair enough.


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Old 04-12-2009, 10:52 PM   #44
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Which shows that I'm both willing to revise my position, should a qualified person present better evidence that that which I've already observed, and that you're not very good at rational discussions.

I have no preconceived conclusions about Libby or Cheney. The preponderance of evidence presented appears weighted against them, but should different evidence be shown by a qualified person(s), I'm willing to revise my position.

So, again, I ask that you support your apparently erroneous and fallacious (tu quoque) contention.
Just can it Skin, you're probably not fooling anyone because I already posted proof from a far left Newspaper that had every motive to try to frame Bush for flying the planes into the World Trade Center. And even they had to admit that the leak wasn't from Rove, Cheney, nor was it from Libby. It was from some guy under Powell. The fact is the prosecutor knew that and he still went after Libby.

Seriously, if acting like Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank are your ideas of bipartisanship I'd really be afraid to see your definition of when the left is partisan.

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Well, the only caveat I'd add to that is that is there really no one else qualified or is the person doing the picking casting a wide enough net to pick a largely noncontroversial candidate? When you think about the fact that candidates have anywhere from a minimum of days to as much as the beggining of the election campaigns to start looking for such candidates, it's a little hard to say..."geez, we couldn't really find someone else."
I'll add to that and say that the argument doesn't fly when most of his appointments have a history of not paying their taxes and/or have a record of being far-left radicals.
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:53 PM   #45
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Yawn.


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Old 04-13-2009, 12:57 AM   #46
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Yawn.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/30/wa...tage.html?_r=1
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:03 AM   #47
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Well then. See. I revise my position. I no longer agree with the conclusion that Libby was the leak. Armitage admits he was the traitor. Its a good thing he didn't work for the Bush administration or anything....

By the way, this will be the only time I'll tolerate simply posting a link. This isn't a blog. So if you (or anyone else) posts just a link without commentary or opinion and it disappears....


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Old 04-13-2009, 09:20 AM   #48
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... have a record of being far-left radicals.
Proving my point exactly.

After eight years of grumbling about Bush appointing hawkish Neo-Con folks to key administration positions; and judges who are so socially conservative that they made Pat Buchanan look like Noam Chomsky; and then being told by my more right-wing associates: "Well, he's the President. That's his prerogative. He gets to appoint whoever he wants. You don't have to like it..." it's truly nice to see the other side squirming for a change.

Like I said: if and when it's proven that they really did break the law, then they should be punished.

Otherwise: it's all just partisan griping.

It's not exactly like he's ever likely to appoint a lot of folks who see things your way and make you happy. I don't foresee a lot of lifetime Republican party faithful ever getting ushered into key positions. A liberal Dem president is most likely to (surprise, surprise!) appoint other liberal Democrats.

But again: That's his gig.

Anyway: The country will survive.


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Old 04-13-2009, 11:27 AM   #49
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Well then. See. I revise my position. I no longer agree with the conclusion that Libby was the leak. Armitage admits he was the traitor. Its a good thing he didn't work for the Bush administration or anything....

By the way, this will be the only time I'll tolerate simply posting a link. This isn't a blog. So if you (or anyone else) posts just a link without commentary or opinion and it disappears....
I had posted that link before with a commentary, but you had apparently missed it the last time, which is the only reason why I posted it by itself.

@edlib

Contrary to what the mainstream media would like people to believe, many of the Bush appointees were not far-right. And Bush's appointees actually did pay their taxes.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:48 AM   #50
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Enough of them were, though.

At least: far more than I ever wanted to see appointed, anyway.

And if the taxes thing is really getting to you that much: do something about it!

Contact your representatives to bring prosecution against them. Don't expect the Obama administration to volunteer to do it themselves. That's how the system works.

Complaining about it on an internet forum (where most of the folks here don't share your political stance) is unlikely to stir action.

But I'm certain that even if the president dismissed his entire cabinet today, and replaced them with an entirely new crop tomorrow, you would still manage find fault with most if not all of them.

Different faults, perhaps... but I'm sure they are still all going to seem "radical" to you. Just like most of Bush's appointees seemed like right-wing radicals to me.


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Old 04-13-2009, 02:54 PM   #51
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Considering you're from Boston, I wouldn't be surprised if you think most of America is far-right... And yes that's a stereotype people in the Midwest have developed about people on the cost.
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Old 04-13-2009, 05:10 PM   #52
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Considering you're from Boston, I wouldn't be surprised if you think most of America is far-right... And yes that's a stereotype people in the Midwest have developed about people on the cost.
So, you agree its a stereotype yet you're still going to label him under it?

Now that takes guts, especially from someone who is adamant on their belief that California is left-wing.

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Old 04-13-2009, 08:11 PM   #53
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So, you agree its a stereotype yet you're still going to label him under it?
After reading his comments, yes he fits the stereotype.

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Now that takes guts, especially from someone who is adamant on their belief that California is left-wing.
No I think the people in the big cities of California particularly San Fransisco is largely made up of far left individuals.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:53 PM   #54
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:41 PM   #55
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why do you post here
shuttup youre just a coastal elite youre not a real american



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Old 04-13-2009, 11:24 PM   #56
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After reading his comments, yes he fits the stereotype.
Just make sure that your label maker doesn't run out of paper, otherwise you wont be able to debate.

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No I think the people in the big cities of California particularly San Fransisco is largely made up of far left individuals.
Big cities of california?

San Fran is pretty left, but the other major cities like San Diego, LA, Sacra, etc are pretty conservative, particularly San Diego.

So, you may want to revise your post to be "I think the people in the big city of San Fran" instead of calling all of California San Francisco.

Oh, right, I'm wrong. Its not like I live in California or anything.

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I second this.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:39 PM   #57
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At least: far more than I ever wanted to see appointed, anyway.
I suspect that even one would have been too many for you.

@TA--I suspect that many of CA's citizens are more conservative than not (judging by the reaction to prop 8), but the state legislature and the oft overridden 9th Circuit Court of Appeals are predominantly liberal. Face it, no matter how "conservative" CA may be, it's predominantly ruled by liberals. I wouldn't even say that your governator is a conservative, just a mostly liberal republican.


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Old 04-13-2009, 11:43 PM   #58
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@TA--I suspect that many of CA's citizens are more conservative than not (judging by the reaction to prop 8), but the state legislature and the oft overridden 9th Circuit Court of Appeals are predominantly liberal. Face it, no matter how "conservative" CA may be, it's predominantly ruled by liberals. I wouldn't even say that your governator is a conservative, just a mostly liberal republican.
Liberal republican sums up the state pretty well. We're bipolar with our voting.

Other than San Fran, when you go into the major coast cities they are pretty conservative due to Navy and Airforce outposts. Drive away from the cities and it gets more left/liberal.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:48 PM   #59
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Actually: on the political spectrum, I consider myself a liberal-leaning moderate independent... a realist (though many might just as easily say: "cynic."...) and amused by how strongly some people take their stances, since my own viewpoint has changed many times over the years depending on the situation, and when I see new information that makes me question my beliefs.

I typically vote on issues rather than for platforms or along preset party lines. For instance: I'm pro gay marriage (simply since it doesn't concern me or my life one way or the other, I'm too apathetic to ever bother to stage a resistance...) but I'm also fairly libertarian when it comes to gun control.

Basically: I want the government to stay out of people's personal lives and concentrate on all the things that might make our lives better.

I met, supported, and probably would have voted for the McCain that ran in '99/ 2000... and most likely would have this time around, had I saw him again in '08... and had he chosen almost anyone but Sarah Palin.

Personally: I'm largely apolitical... though I follow it to a certain extent. I do sometimes like playing Devil's Advocate in threads like this... especially when someone makes what I feel is a sweeping statement... and one that goes against everything that life has taught me about human nature and group dynamics.

(You'll have to decide if I'm taking the viewpoints I have in this thread because that is what I really believe... or if I'm just offering an opposing viewpoint for sake of discussion.)

Republican; Democrat; Conservative; Liberal... People in power all behave exactly the same... and the people out of power react to it in the same manners they always have.

In my lifetime, it has been the same in every administration I have observed (I guess starting with the Ford Presidency... though I doubt I was really paying very close attention back then. )

I'm not sure if I fall into the stereotype or not. Personally: I think I'd much rather prefer to fall into a surround-type. (I AM a big advocate of 5.1, 7.1, or more channel audio. That's a cause I CAN really get behind.)


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Old 04-14-2009, 12:59 AM   #60
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I suspect that even one would have been too many for you.

@TA--I suspect that many of CA's citizens are more conservative than not (judging by the reaction to prop 8), but the state legislature and the oft overridden 9th Circuit Court of Appeals are predominantly liberal. Face it, no matter how "conservative" CA may be, it's predominantly ruled by liberals. I wouldn't even say that your governator is a conservative, just a mostly liberal republican.
It depends where you go out here. People here are nutz.

Ahnuld? He's just whatever suits him. Though I do applaud his quick decisive action in 2007 regarding the Angora fire. Probably in part because his vacation mansion is less than 1 hr away from it. Amongst other things, to be fair, though.

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Liberal republican sums up the state pretty well. We're bipolar with our voting.

Other than San Fran, when you go into the major coast cities they are pretty conservative due to Navy and Airforce outposts. Drive away from the cities and it gets more left/liberal.
Agreed. For as liberal as some places claim to be, they sure have it down for the have/have-not capitalism. D.I.N.O-R.I.N.O land.

It's a sprawl and a pigsty at that. Liberals and Conservatives live pretty much on top of one another. Scatterbrained people between them.

Some rural areas and small towns are conservative as well to make up for SF.

Central valley? It's pretty much a ****ing nowhere's ville out here. Most don't care about politics. Ruder drivers here than anywhere else I've ever been. And for garbage property anywhere in CA, it's pretty damn expensive.

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Basically: I want the government to stay out of people's personal lives and concentrate on all the things that might make our lives better.
On that we agree. However, I rather suspect that senators are moving in their mindsets towards such that individual freedoms will soon be considered to be the root cause of the problems we have. Just something to think on.

I guess I stay up on the politics only to a point. Informed just enough to see if someone is trying to screw around with me on taxes, etc. or to see if something will impinge on a right or freedom. Like you I vote on issues more. Cynical similarly, but perhaps seeing things differently. Though I probably do have some issues I'm middle or left on; Overall more to the right, though.

In general: There are some things many will never see eye to eye with me on since I have co-owned and managed a business before, where others have not. Self employment makes one see things a little different. However I will admit many see the $$$ more than the big picture. Whereas I go more for responsibility, common sense, and not being a bastard to your employees/clients. Self regulating. No material reason to be the good guy, but there is a reciprocation of sorts and a trust level you establish since most people are good. Something you can't buy with money nor can you get back if you ever **** it up. I am wary for bastards in general, though.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:27 AM   #61
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In general: There are some things many will never see eye to eye with me on since I have co-owned and managed a business before, where others have not. Self employment makes one see things a little different. However I will admit many see the $$$ more than the big picture. Whereas I go more for responsibility, common sense, and not being a bastard to your employees/clients. Self regulating. No material reason to be the good guy, but there is a reciprocation of sorts and a trust level you establish since most people are good. Something you can't buy with money nor can you get back if you ever **** it up. I am wary for bastards in general, though.
If people could be that responsible and self-regulating, there would be no need for any government.

Since they can't be trusted to, there is the need for regulatory agencies... and the tax money to fund them, unfortunately.

I agree with many of my libertarian friends that the federal government is currently far too unwieldy... but I guess I'm liberal in the sense that I think we still need federal departments to cover the things that people and local and state governments can't or won't do successfully. (With the counter-argument being that the feds really don't do it any better... so it's just tax money thrown away.)


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Old 04-14-2009, 03:16 PM   #62
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If people could be that responsible and self-regulating, there would be no need for any government.

Since they can't be trusted to, there is the need for regulatory agencies... and the tax money to fund them, unfortunately.
What happens when it is government regulations that caused the mess in the first place?

Government Regulations forced some banks to make those risky loans in the first place.

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I agree with many of my libertarian friends that the federal government is currently far too unwieldy... but I guess I'm liberal in the sense that I think we still need federal departments to cover the things that people and local and state governments can't or won't do successfully. (With the counter-argument being that the feds really don't do it any better... so it's just tax money thrown away.)
I agree there needs to be some regulations, the problem is what do you do when regulations are what forced businesses into the mess in the first place, and then big Government blames the businesses. Some of the businesses are responsible for their own mess, but some of them can partially blame Government Regulations.

http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2008...ake-bad-loans/

I wouldn't use this except for the fact the audio/video is something of interest.
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:53 PM   #63
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Expecting businesses to self-regulate fairly and successfully is also a proven recipe for disaster.

As with most things in this world, there is probably a middle-ground solution that will work best... but the problem comes in getting the 2 polar-opposite sides to find the compromise point and agree to give it a try.

In this instance, perhaps: Less regulations... but REALLY enforce the ones we come up with.


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Old 04-14-2009, 06:48 PM   #64
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Expecting businesses to self-regulate fairly and successfully is also a proven recipe for disaster.

As with most things in this world, there is probably a middle-ground solution that will work best... but the problem comes in getting the 2 polar-opposite sides to find the compromise point and agree to give it a try.

In this instance, perhaps: Less regulations... but REALLY enforce the ones we come up with.
And if they are bad regulations, and also the people that directly benefitted from causing this mess are the people that are currently in office: that includes President Obama, Barney Frank, Senator Chris Dodd, etc.

An article of interest http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...eported-bonus/

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Old 04-15-2009, 09:26 AM   #65
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[Reagan]There you go again![/Reagan] Just can't help yourself?

Well... while the Dems are hardly blameless in all this... it is important to note that the Republicans did have majority control of all the branches of Government from 2000 to 2006, (and control of both houses during the greater part of the Clinton era...) and the bubble that recently burst setting this all in motion had to be building as far back as that.

In fact, I remember some analysts were forecasting this recession (or at the very least, the burst of the housing bubble which would have dire consequences across the board...) before the Democrats even took control in the '06 election.

It would be convenient to lay the blame on the liberals only... but to me, that would be like the bus driver blaming the passengers for an accident. (While they may have been a distraction, he's ultimately the one in control.)

And I'm sure that if a little digging was done, I'm certain it could be found that folks who personally benefited from this could be found across partisan lines.


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Old 04-15-2009, 10:03 AM   #66
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^^^^

Great post. Interesting how some people struggle to connect cause and effect, isn't it?
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:46 PM   #67
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Well... while the Dems are hardly blameless in all this... it is important to note that the Republicans did have majority control of all the branches of Government from 2000 to 2006, (and control of both houses during the greater part of the Clinton era...) and the bubble that recently burst setting this all in motion had to be building as far back as that.
It is also important to note that the Democrats fillabustered the increase in regulations in 2003, 2005, 2006, and said there wasn't a problem in 2007.

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In fact, I remember some analysts were forecasting this recession (or at the very least, the burst of the housing bubble which would have dire consequences across the board...) before the Democrats even took control in the '06 election.
The Republicans never had a fillabusterproof majority, and while there are some corrupt Republicans out there, the people that stood to gain financially through all of this were Democrats.

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It would be convenient to lay the blame on the liberals only... but to me, that would be like the bus driver blaming the passengers for an accident. (While they may have been a distraction, he's ultimately the one in control.)
That's a bad analogy, there is something called seperation of powers.

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And I'm sure that if a little digging was done, I'm certain it could be found that folks who personally benefited from this could be found across partisan lines.
Possibly, but Chris Dodd and Barack Obama were #1 and #2 respectively for their entire terms in Federal Government.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:51 PM   #68
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Not filibusterer-proof perhaps... but for anything new to pass they had to certainly sign off on it to some extent. The Dems simply didn't have the votes.

And they certainly had time and political muscle to legislate reforms if they had really wanted to. The "Contract with America" election was 1994. During that time many pre-existing regulations were done away with. The Republican majority could have overhauled the system on their watch.

They didn't pick their fights carefully enough, then.

To lay the entire mess at the feet of the Democrats might be fun... but it's simply not realistic. There's plenty of blame to go all around. More than enough for everyone who has held office for the last couple of decades.

At best, you can only paint the majority of Republicans as being bullied and powerless against the mean old Democrat minority, or totally asleep at the wheel for the last 13 years. And that's not how I remember it.

The Conservatives steamrolled a lot of legislation through over the protests of the Liberals when they wanted to. Especially in the first couple of years after the 2000 election.


But from my point of view: both parties are totally corrupt, and EVERY politician on the planet is completely, 100% full of ****. You can paint the current administration as badly as you like. I mostly agree with you.

I just honestly don't believe the other side is truly any better.


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Old 04-15-2009, 08:50 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edlib
But from my point of view: both parties are totally corrupt, and EVERY politician on the planet is completely, 100% full of ****. You can paint the current administration as badly as you like. I mostly agree with you.
Oh, how cynical. I wish I could say I disagreed. Okay, maybe not ALL, but too damn many nonetheless. Quick question: how often does the libretarian in you throttle the lib and vice versa?


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Old 04-15-2009, 09:46 PM   #70
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It's the reason I have to stay apolitical for the most part... otherwise I'd go crazy.



Let's put it this way: I'm libertarian on personal values issues... and liberal on social-causes issues.

I don't mind big-government spending... as long as you leave all my personal freedoms intact while you do it.

It's a delicate balancing act, to say the least. I don't recommend it.


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Old 04-19-2009, 09:45 PM   #71
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Check out the latest Obama appointee that apparently has been implicated in an Illinois Governor Pay-To-Play scheme. So his administration is made up of tax cheats, people that demand bribes, etc.

Does this remind anyone else of Chicago?
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:01 AM   #72
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garfield have you been to chicago before or is your idea of chicago the untouchables + computers i'm just curious



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Old 04-20-2009, 12:10 AM   #73
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Heh... I'm from Boston... where one of the most powerful men in politics here is brothers with one of the FBI's most wanted mob bosses.


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Old 04-20-2009, 12:11 AM   #74
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This "Chicago" thing is an irrational pejorative that he's likely parroting from Limbaugh or some other such hate-media. Its interesting and demonstrative of the irrational and, perhaps, deficient cognitive function of conservatives since such a rhetorical pejorative is so easily spread as a meme among followers of Limbaugh and other such talking-heads. The purpose is to create irrational hatred and fear.


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Old 04-20-2009, 12:13 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by jmac7142 View Post
garfield have you been to chicago before or is your idea of chicago the untouchables + computers i'm just curious
You're trying to tell me Chicago isn't one of the most corrupt cities in the United States?

@ SkinWalker

I actually got it off of an FBI agent's commentary concerning Chicago and Illinois in general, I have been to Illinois thank you kindly and as you've stated you don't pay much attention to politics so I believe I'm more of an expert in this area than you are.

Last edited by GarfieldJL; 04-20-2009 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:22 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
You're trying to tell me Chicago isn't one of the most corrupt cities in the United States?
are you trying to tell me i should just say WELP IT'S CHICAGO and let it go like no other city even comes close to the level of corruption there or its corruption is somehow unique



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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
I actually got it off of an FBI agent's commentary concerning Chicago and Illinois in general, I have been to Illinois thank you kindly and as you've stated you don't pay much attention to politics so I believe I'm more of an expert in this area than you are.
I GUESS WE CAN ALL GO **** OURSELVES THEN YOU'RE THE EXPERT WITH TIES TO THE FBI MR G-MAN ENLIGHTEN US ABOUT CHICAGO



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Old 04-20-2009, 12:22 AM   #77
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You're trying to tell me Chicago isn't one of the most corrupt cities in the United States?
Do you seriously not consider it a non sequitur to assume that because some or even many politicians in Chicago are corrupt that it, therefore, implies all are (or, more to your point, all democratic ones)?

Part Two of this question: Do you know what a non sequitur is?


Quote:
I actually got it off of an FBI agent's commentary concerning Chicago and Illinois in general,
So, you're saying that an FBI website or the FBI's official comment is that it is appropriate to use a pejorative "Chicago politician" in the same manner one might say, "your name is Mudd" (after the doctor who treated a famous Presidential assassin)? Hmm...

Quote:
I have been to Illinois thank you kindly
Lots of people have been there. Myself included. It doesn't make them "experts" on Chicago politics anymore than visiting Boston or Houston makes me an expert in baked beans and Oil.

Quote:
and as you've stated you don't pay much attention to politics so I believe I'm more of an expert in this area than you are
You've yet to demonstrate your expertise on much of anything in this forum, Garf. Least of all politics. I hate to be honest, but sometimes that's the best policy.


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Old 04-20-2009, 12:24 AM   #78
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observe as garfield scrambles to wikipedia so he can reply with a yes and act offended by your asking



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Old 04-20-2009, 12:49 AM   #79
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Do you seriously not consider it a non sequitur to assume that because some or even many politicians in Chicago are corrupt that it, therefore, implies all are (or, more to your point, all democratic ones)?
Considering the shear number of Governors indicted or convicted in the last century. Oh I'm sorry the quote was Illinois (which is even worse).

Quote:
CHICAGO -- At a press conference here Tuesday announcing federal corruption charges against Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, FBI Special Agent Robert Grant said that "if [Illinois] isn't the most corrupt state in the United States, it is one hell of a competitor."
--Wall Street Journal



Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Part Two of this question: Do you know what a non sequitur is?
Yes, and I suggest you look in a mirror because I am basing my conclusions off of evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
So, you're saying that an FBI website or the FBI's official comment is that it is appropriate to use a pejorative "Chicago politician" in the same manner one might say, "your name is Mudd" (after the doctor who treated a famous Presidential assassin)? Hmm...
It was actually quite easy to back up my statements, also there is a reason the term, "Chicago Mob" is well known.

Quote:
The arrest of Gov. Blagojevich is one more chapter in a long, bipartisan history of corruption that has seen roughly 20% -- one in five -- of the state's chief executives indicted or convicted of felonies in the past century.
-- Wall Street Journal

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
Lots of people have been there. Myself included. It doesn't make them "experts" on Chicago politics anymore than visiting Boston or Houston makes me an expert in baked beans and Oil.
Maybe, but you do have to admit I know more about politics than you do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinWalker
You've yet to demonstrate your expertise on much of anything in this forum, Garf. Least of all politics. I hate to be honest, but sometimes that's the best policy.
You'll pardon me if I don't take the opinion of someone whom in my opinion is a far-left partisan seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142
observe as garfield scrambles to wikipedia so he can reply with a yes and act offended by your asking
It's more of I find what he's accusing me of amusing, I already knew what it meant.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:11 AM   #80
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<yawn>

"Chicago mob" and "chicago politics" boil down to irrational, fear-mongering and hate-filled rhetoric un-patriotically designed to discredit the President of the United States of America.


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