Ironic end

[Totenkopf]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tiller_shooting

So, what affect, if any, will this have on the abortion issue? Thoughts...

[Rogue15]

it's probably not gonna change anything. increased security for the abortion doctors.

now, if the anti-abortion people would start gunning down those that are going to the doctors to get abortions before they even enter the clinic, there might be a change.

[Jae Onasi]

Originally Posted by Rogue15

now, if the anti-abortion people would start gunning down those that are going to the doctors to get abortions before they even enter the clinic, there might be a change.

I am horrified at such a thought, as well as horrified that someone took the life of this doctor, even if I didn't agree with his views on late-term abortion. It's such a complete and utter disrespect for life.

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

I am horrified at such a thought, as well as horrified that someone took the life of this doctor, even if I didn't agree with his views on late-term abortion. It's such a complete and utter disrespect for life.

It isn't alive until it breaths on its own.

Maybe we ought to start gunning down the anti-abortion people? It sure would be nice if I could drive past the Planned Parenthood without seeing them march around with their stupid cross, and waving their nasty little signs.

[Rogue15]

To make it clear, I wouldn't want anyone to do such a thing as gunning anyone down.


I'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice, I don't care either way. To each his own.

[Totenkopf]

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

It isn't alive until it breaths on its own.

If breathing "on one's own" is the standard, then perhaps people should be taken off ventillators b/c they are essentially dead/unliving?

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Rogue15

To make it clear, I wouldn't want anyone to do such a thing as gunning anyone down.

Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Rogue15

now, if the anti-abortion people would start gunning down those that are going to the doctors to get abortions before they even enter the clinic, there might be a change.

[Totenkopf]

^Typical. He's merely pointing out that it would likely take more than killing an abortion doctor to cause any real change and you go running off suggesting "zomg!! he wants to see people get shot in the street." To make that jump is a leap FROM logic, not a leap of logic.

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by Totenkopf

If breathing "on one's own" is the standard, then perhaps people should be taken off ventillators b/c they are essentially dead/unliving?

A fetus has never breathed on its own. People on ventilators were at one point able to breath on their own. Unless you're referring to vegetables, I think they ought to be taken off life support.

[Totenkopf]

Frankly, using your apparently vague precondition....breath on one's own....anyone on life support that can't draw a breath unassisted is not alive.

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

I believe he just amended that statement?

[Samnmax221]

But they're killing babies Jarod, BABIES. Which for some reason or another automatically are worth more than the lives of walking, talking, thinking people. Really, I don't quite get it.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

But they're killing babies Jarod,

Not babies - pre-babies.

_EW_

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Not babies - pre-babies.

_EW_

And in some cases, not even pre-babies.

This "heinous crime" consists of less than 1% of all abortions performed in the U.S. and most states have laws requiring that there be some certifiable health risk before it can be carried out. Clearly we are the pinnacle of civilization that reproductive health professionals have to fear for their lives when going to work in the morning

[Jae Onasi]

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

It isn't alive until it breaths on its own.

That's a load of crap. I've had 2 babies of my own--they were very much alive before they were born.

Maybe we ought to start gunning down the anti-abortion people? It sure would be nice if I could drive past the Planned Parenthood without seeing them march around with their stupid cross, and waving their nasty little signs.

That would be just as disrespectful of not only their lives, but their right to free speech and religion. I abhor the senseless waste that the murder of this doctor was, and nowhere did I even remotely imply that anyone should ever be gunned down. If I never saw another gunshot wound, it would be too soon.

Don't like the protestors? Do a counter-protest or some other positive expression of your free speech rights. It's totally easy to gripe here about how much you hate the protesting, but consider putting your money where your mouth is and volunteer to help at the clinic.

[Rogue15]

Originally Posted by Totenkopf

^Typical. He's merely pointing out that it would likely take more than killing an abortion doctor to cause any real change and you go running off suggesting "zomg!! he wants to see people get shot in the street." To make that jump is a leap FROM logic, not a leap of logic.

thank you.

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

That's a load of crap. I've had 2 babies of my own--they were very much alive before they were born.

Mothers shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on this sort of things. All their hormones make them really stupid.

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Don't like the protestors? Do a counter-protest or some other positive expression of your free speech rights. It's totally easy to gripe here about how much you hate the protesting, but consider putting your money where your mouth is and volunteer to help at the clinic.

I don't have time for that while either working or going to school full time, and doing other service projects.

[M@RS]

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

It isn't alive until it breaths on its own.

Alive: marked by much life, animation, or activity.
Life: animate activity and movement.

The baby is quite active in the mother's womb (kicking, eating, etc.) You're definition of life doesn't line up with the definitions from the dictionary.

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

Mothers shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on this sort of things. All their hormones make them really stupid.

So you're saying that their decision to have an abortion in the first place was stupid because of their hormones?

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by M@RS

Alive: marked by much life, animation, or activity.
Life: animate activity and movement.

The baby is quite active in the mother's womb (kicking, eating, etc.) You're definition of life doesn't line up with the definitions from the dictionary.

How does that work for you when we apply it to someone in a persistent vegetative state? Coma? Paralysis?

I'm willing to bet that your definition of life isn't as tidy as you would like for it to be either.

I think the problem that we're going to have here is that one or more interested parties seem to be hung up on "alive" when I think the root of what we're really trying to get to is "personhood" (i.e. a separate entity with rights, etc).

Furthermore the problem that we run into when we talk about late-term abortions is whether the "rights" of an unborn fetus trump the rights of a living, breathing human adult (per Samnmax221's earlier post). As related to this thread, someone committed an actual murder to avenge perceived "murders" and called it "christian". Perhaps an apologist will come along at some point to explain how first degree murder is "christ-like".

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by M@RS

Alive: marked by much life, animation, or activity.
Life: animate activity and movement.

The baby is quite active in the mother's womb (kicking, eating, etc.) You're definition of life doesn't line up with the definitions from the dictionary.

It doesn't know its being aborted, it isn't sentient, it's not murder.

Originally Posted by M@RS

So you're saying that their decision to have an abortion in the first place was stupid because of their hormones?

No, I was mocking mothers, Jae in particular, for their constant MY BABY this, MY BABY that, they sound like they're on ****ing Maury. No one gives a **** about yourBABY but you, stop talking about. Also, when Sarah Dumbass Palin cited her experiance as a mother during the leadup to the election I wanted to punch her in the face, its not classy, no one cares, and its not applicable to anything else, stop citing it.

Abortion is a women's health issue, they aren't just heartlessly killing babies like you morons seem to believe. Late term abortions are almost exclusively undertaken to prevent pregnancy complications, do you know why you don't hear about women dying during child birth very often anymore? Because the pregnancy can be ended, forcing women to go the course due to your own simple minded beliefs pretty much condemns one, or both of them to death in those cases.

Also this:

YouTube Video

[PastramiX]

If Christians really want to put an end to abortion once and for all, then they need to stop lobbying the government to criminalize it, and instead, campaign to eliminate the need for an abortion. Abortion is a quick and easy resolution to one's problem, therefore, the problem must be prevented in the first place.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by PastramiX

If Christians really want to put an end to abortion once and for all, then they need to stop lobbying the government to criminalize it, and instead, campaign to eliminate the need for an abortion. Abortion is a quick and easy resolution to one's problem, therefore, the problem must be prevented in the first place.

That would mean having to admit error and backtrack on 20+ years of (failed) abstinence-only programs.

We'd have to introduce comprehensive sex ed like what most other industrialized nations have which of course would not sit well with prudish American/christian values at all.

[RoxStar]

Originally Posted by PastramiX

Abortion is a quick and easy resolution to one's problem, therefore, the problem must be prevented in the first place.

Bingo. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Let's prevent unwanted pregnancies and educate kids.

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by Achilles

We'd have to introduce comprehensive sex ed like what most other industrialized nations have which of course would not sit well with prudish American/christian values at all.

Even that won't eliminate everything. We had comprehensive sex-ed and still had dumb pregnant girls up the wazoo. Nothing compared to the kind of **** that goes on in the Bible-belt, but still a ridiculous amount. As long as kids are stupid teen pregnancies will keep happening.

EDIT: Should probably mention that pregnancy complications (Ectopic pregnancy, Placental abruptio, etc) will continue the need for abortions, no matter what for many years to come.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by RoxStar

Bingo. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Let's prevent unwanted pregnancies and educate kids.

Of course, however even if by some unbelievable chance we eliminated 100% of all unintended pregnancies, that still wouldn't address the fact that women may need access to safe, legal late-term abortions for health reasons.

What you and PX have expressed here is absolutely valid, however it is only one part of the picture.

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

Even that won't eliminate everything. We had comprehensive sex-ed and still had dumb pregnant girls up the wazoo. Nothing compared to the kind of **** that goes on in the Bible-belt, but still a ridiculous amount. As long as kids are stupid teen pregnancies will keep happening.

No doubt, but I think the point stands that true comprehensive sex ed is much more effective than abstinence only.

[Samnmax221]

Originally Posted by Achilles

No doubt, but I think the point stands that true comprehensive sex ed is much more effective than abstinence only.

No disagreement there. Some parents are just dumb enough to think that their spawn is going to be harmed any more by learning actual and important information about sex, than they would be learning on their own. Quite the opposite actually.

[Achilles]

Someone mentioned Sarah Palin recently...

[Jae Onasi]

Originally Posted by samnmax

It doesn't know its being aborted, it isn't sentient, it's not murder.

Brilliant logic there. Let's wait til you're asleep so you don't know you're being killed, and then it won't be murder. Your definition of life is inconsistent with accepted scientific and philosophical definitions.

Originally Posted by PastramiX

If Christians really want to put an end to abortion once and for all, then they need to stop lobbying the government to criminalize it, and instead, campaign to eliminate the need for an abortion. Abortion is a quick and easy resolution to one's problem, therefore, the problem must be prevented in the first place.

Abortion, particularly late term, cannot be described as 'easy'. During a late-term abortion, the mother labors just like she would with a live child.

My thoughts on this from a post in the the thread on 'what's up with traditionalists and comprehensive sex ed:

Originally Posted by me

The concern, at least in a lot of evangelical circles, is that comprehensive sex ed gives the message that 'sex outside of marriage is OK, everyone's doing it, just use a condom and go at it like a bunch of humping bunnies'. Sex outside of marriage isn't condoned in Christian faith for a variety of reasons besides just 'God said so,'--sex with multiple partners contributes to increased risk of STDs and even in a single partner relationship there's the risk of unwanted pregnancies, among many other things. Condoms don't prevent either STDs or pregnancy 100%. The only thing that's 100% effective in preventing the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies is abstinence.

The problem with abstinence-only programs is that unless it provides alternative activities for students, it ignores the fact that a. teens are horny and b. humping like bunnies can be darn fun. Just telling someone 'don't do it til you're married [because if you're Christian you'll burn in hell]' doesn't work well when you're cuddling with your beloved and have your hormones hijacking your brain. The evangelical community sometimes assumes that teens are going to have the same level of wisdom, maturity, and understanding of delayed gratification as adults, and that's not always the case. Saying to a teen 'don't do that' is pretty worthless without a good explanation and offering alternative activities to 'hooking up'.

The other obvious problem with abstinence-only programs is that at some point a lot of people are going to get married, and newlyweds really need to know how babies get made/not made so they can make appropriate arrangements for birth control (or lack thereof if they want kids right away). They need to have good information on that before the wedding night, not after.

While I agree with my evangelical brothers and sisters on the importance of abstinence education (primarily for medical/social reasons rather than just religious in my viewpoint), I disagree with them on it being the _only_ discussion of birth/STD control for the reasons above. Abstinence shouldn't be given lip-service in a comprehensive program, but it shouldn't be the exclusive program, either.

[Emperor Devon]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Brilliant logic there. Let's wait til you're asleep so you don't know you're being killed, and then it won't be murder. Your definition of life is inconsistent with accepted scientific and philosophical definitions.

Are you even reading the posts in this thread?

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Samnmax221

Abortion is a women's health issue, they aren't just heartlessly killing babies like you morons seem to believe. Late term abortions are almost exclusively undertaken to prevent pregnancy complications, do you know why you don't hear about women dying during child birth very often anymore? Because the pregnancy can be ended, forcing women to go the course due to your own simple minded beliefs pretty much condemns one, or both of them to death in those cases.

A woman has the right to autonomy while the baby is still dependent on the mother to survive.

Originally Posted by Achilles

That would mean having to admit error and backtrack on 20+ years of (failed) abstinence-only programs.

We'd have to introduce comprehensive sex ed like what most other industrialized nations have which of course would not sit well with prudish American/christian values at all.

Concur.

_EW_

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Brilliant logic there. Let's wait til you're asleep so you don't know you're being killed, and then it won't be murder.

Sleeping people are still sentient (as shown by anyone who has ever woken up when they had to go to the bathroom or when they heard a loud noise in the middle of the night, remembered a dream upon waking, etc).

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Your definition of life is inconsistent with accepted scientific and philosophical definitions.

Source please?

If you're going to cite and/or operationally define terms, please at least give us the courtesy of telling us how you're doing so. TIA.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Achilles

remembered a dream upon waking

The other night I had a dream that I bought my girlfriend a diamond bracelet, and then it broke the day I was going to surprise her with it, then we were slowdancing.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

_EW_

[Achilles]

"There was a moment last night when she was sandwiched in between the Maori tribesmen and the Finnish dwarves where I thought, 'I could really spend the rest of my life with this girl'".

[PastramiX]

Originally Posted by Jae Onasi

Abortion, particularly late term, cannot be described as 'easy'. During a late-term abortion, the mother labors just like she would with a live child.

Easy, as in it's a quick one-day operation that can be done before people figure out that you've been knocked up.