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Old 06-13-2009, 09:29 AM   #41
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That all depends on how you choice to look at it, that same statement could also prove that the Army cares more about the safety of its troops by wanting to provide some protection to more troops by purchasing the less expensive, lighter weight and more easily repairable armor that holds up in extreme environments (aka desert warfare).


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Old 06-13-2009, 09:56 AM   #42
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They didn't have to ban DS altogether. If they made the case that Interceptor was good enough that they don't reasonably need to have level 5 ballistic protection, then I wouldn't disagree with that.

The F-22 is the world's best fighter, but that doesn't mean that I would support it over the F-15 and F-16. It does make sense not to build many F-22's because five F-15's can do much more than one ultimate fighter. Because the F-15 still is 92/0 in combat, you don't really need a fighter that can outperform it for four times the cost.

Same thing could be argued with DS.
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Old 06-13-2009, 10:05 AM   #43
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@DY did you not see the test results that Tommy as well as myself linked to? The Dragon Skin broke down at extreme temperatures which does the Army absolutely zero good in the conditions they're fighting in now.


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Old 06-13-2009, 10:05 AM   #44
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I wouldn't want to wear that in the desert either.

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Old 06-13-2009, 10:07 AM   #45
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lol


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Old 06-13-2009, 11:15 AM   #46
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Saw the site. If those ballistic tests would have needed that the vest go through that kind of punishment as part of the requirement, then I would admit that DS wouldn't pass.

That still doesn't change how DS was banned before these tests were conducted. Even if DS were a lemon, it was banned before that was confirmed as such.

Under normal conditions, DS outperforms Interceptor; but if the Army required that all vests pass those conditions as well, then I will admit that Interceptor wins that contest.
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:42 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura in another thread
I'm not one to easily change my opinion, but only because I make one based on a solid foundation of proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura in this thread
Right I'm no expert, so my opinion is moot. I'm not presenting an argument for debate, so I don't expect anyone to take my opinion to heart.
You form your opinions "based on a solid foundation of proof", however when it's pointed out to you that you're not an expert and when you're asked to provide evidence for your accusations, you simply repeat yourself.

Which might make it difficult for some of us to accept it when you say things such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura in another thread
When I don't have that much proof to go on, my opinion is very flexible to change, and I don't put much value in that belief.
If you want to believe that DS is superior (which seems not to be the case in many areas), then that is your business, but I don't know what you seek to gain by continuing to argue with people who clearly see the evidence differently than you. Especially since (repeat):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura in this thread
I'm not presenting an argument for debate, so I don't expect anyone to take my opinion to heart.
(Emphasis added)

Hint: Your accusatory/conspiratorial tone doesn't strike me as very being very "dispassionate observer" either. FYI.

Final thought: I must admit that I haven't read that many of your posts. However what little I have read leads me to believe that you are a person who makes an effort to examine arguments critically. Kudos. The world needs more people like this.

Based on what I've seen in this thread, I don't get the impression that you've adopted the practice of turning those critical thinking skills on your own arguments (although I do get the impression that you've convinced yourself that you do, per an earlier quote). Doing so does a couple of things, most importantly a) it allows you to find the flaws in your arguments before someone else does (which may or may not be embarrassing) and b) allows you to make better arguments (if a. didn't cause you to abandon them altogether) because you can anticipate potential counter-arguments.

I would ask you to consider that perhaps you do not have access to all the facts and rationales that went into this decision. That perhaps DS was not the best product (at the best price). I'm wondering if your arguments (which you are presenting, whether you care to own them or not) would sound different if you simply considered these two possibilities.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 06-13-2009, 12:15 PM   #48
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Final thought: I must admit that I haven't read that many of your posts. However what little I have read leads me to believe that you are a person who makes an effort to examine arguments critically. Kudos. The world needs more people like this.
Thank-you. I was starting to think that I've essentially presented so much conflicting material that no one would believe anything I ever say again. I try to understand how the other side comes to their conclusion, but I end up assuming everyone knows why I came to my own conclusion and don't present what lead me to a different conclusion in the first place. This isn't Kavar's, so I didn't make an effort to present conclusive proof or to treat this as a debate.

I am by no means an expert on the subject of body armour. I have read many texts about it and spoke to various individuals, but I haven't exactly compiled a list that I would include with a term paper. I do take into consideration many aspects outside of what I've stated, but assume not to go to the effort of including it until the matter and sources are asked for.

I saw most videos on Youtube that show the tests done on DS, including Mail Call, CSNBC, and future weapons. Some included Jim Mcgee, the designer of Interceptor, advocating for DS.

Here is a site that brings to question the reliability of the tests done on DS:

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/c...%202008.db

From this, witnesses who've filmed the tests, check-in records, and extraordinary conditions were found that suggest that the Army manipulated records against DS. If you have a level 4 round fired at a level III vest, that is not regarded as a failure by DS, but is recorded as such.

Some witnesses say that the actual video presented publicly wasn't how the tests actually happened. When you remove the ballistic plates from a vest, a penetration isn't considered a failure.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0524/p99s01-duts.html

This site has various links to other sites for readers to look for themselves.

Here is an independent video on DS:

http://technorati.com/videos/youtube...%3D861L7Ly-gR4

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Old 06-13-2009, 03:47 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Here's some proof right there that the Army will sacrifice the safety of its troops to save money.
Tommycat's second part of his post quotes a source saying the thing falls apart when the temprature hits 120 degrees. There's proof right there that they weren't willing to sacrifice troop safety on something that doesn't work. It gets up to and over 120 degrees in the summer in Iraq and other deserts. As the wife of a soldier who is on active duty and could end up in Iraq any time the Army wanted, I'm very glad that some general looked at the reliability data and decided that it would not be intelligent to buy something that would have a critical and potentially life-threatening failure in conditions that we fight in on a regular basis right now. So the scales fall down in the bottom of the vest at 120 degrees? Great. We'll have excellent beltline protection from bullets while other little things like the heart, lungs, liver, and spleen are without any protection except cloth.

It would be a completely irresponsible use of our money and soldiers to put them in substandard armor. It is not perfect, as DY claims, if it falls apart in the middle of battle on a hot summer day. If they solve the delamination problem, then it can be re-assessed, but we shouldn't buy and use the DS armor before the problem is fixed.


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Old 06-13-2009, 04:07 PM   #50
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Well, that's unfortunate that the armor breaks down at high temperatures...that would only allow it to be given to troops stationed elsewhere, like Europe, South Korea, and some palces in the US. I agree though, giving our troops this armor in hot areas like Afghanistan or Iraq would be irresponisible and idiotic....


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Old 06-13-2009, 04:44 PM   #51
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Tommycat's second part of his post quotes a source saying the thing falls apart when the temprature hits 120 degrees. There's proof right there that they weren't willing to sacrifice troop safety on something that doesn't work.
So they did give Dragon Skin to all the armed forces? I remember that it was banned before it was even confirmed that it was prone to failure in hot conditions. Third party sources had tested the vests and brought serious question to the Army's tests, even under optimal conditions. If the Army manipulated tests under optimal conditions, then how can we be sure they didn't alter DS under unfavorable conditions?

Quote:
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So the scales fall down in the bottom of the vest at 120 degrees? Great. We'll have excellent beltline protection from bullets while other little things like the heart, lungs, liver, and spleen are without any protection except cloth.
Yeah, while those wearing Interceptor will always leave some of their vital organs exposed under any circumstances. Yeah, DS fails in extreme heat, but it's not like it completely breaks down... did you notice that virtually all those penetrations of which the Army claims landed only on the areas where a disc was missing? Of course, if you know where to fire, then that might make it easier to penetrate the vest. If you aimed only at where the Interceptor plates don't cover the torso, it would fail every time.

If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly. Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised. Pepper an Interceptor vest and the same thing would happen. Fire at an uncompromised DS vest, and it would outperform Interceptor in every way.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
It would be a completely irresponsible use of our money and soldiers to put them in substandard armor.
Then why are there instances when the Army does equip special forces with this substandard vest? Why would they classify so much about their tests if DS doesn't stand a chance against Interceptor? Why would they distort statistics and deliberately modify statements of witnesses to something completely different than they recalled? How could so many third-party sources come to such different conclusions about the same tests?

I would assume there's more to this than the Army wants to admit. I call it irresponsible and depraved indifference to human life if they have distorted tests in order to keep a contract with Point-blank for an inferior product. Pinnacle has come up with a brilliant design in body armour and if they haven't been given a fair trial, then that's not irresponsible; that's a criminal act against life.

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Old 06-13-2009, 08:10 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
So they did give Dragon Skin to all the armed forces? I remember that it was banned before it was even confirmed that it was prone to failure in hot conditions.
Did I say they gave the armor to all armed forces? No. I did not, nor did I imply anything remotely like that.

Pinnacle got in trouble because they classified their armor as having Class V protection when they had not received written certification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Third party sources had tested the vests and brought serious question to the Army's tests, even under optimal conditions. If the Army manipulated tests under optimal conditions, then how can we be sure they didn't alter DS under unfavorable conditions?
The one third party source that did testing from what I can see was NBC, and it appears they did so with the vest laid flat. This isn't normal conditions for usage, unless you plan on equipping Flat Stanley with it. It appears to me from reading all these links you've provided that Pinnacle's owner is alleging the Army manipulated tests, but he hasn't shown any proof. In fact, the Army has suggested an independent third party do testing, and Pinnacle hasn't taken them up on the offer.

Please present proof of this alleged manipulation from a legitimate, unbiased source. "Soldiers for Truth" is obviously biased--"Military Procurement Mafia"? Am I supposed to take a site like that seriously? It sounds about as unbiased as Little Green Footballs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Yeah, while those wearing Interceptor will always leave some of their vital organs exposed under any circumstances. Yeah, DS fails in extreme heat, but it's not like it completely breaks down... did you notice that virtually all those penetrations of which the Army claims landed only on the areas where a disc was missing? Of course, if you know where to fire, then that might make it easier to penetrate the vest. If you aimed only at where the Interceptor plates don't cover the torso, it would fail every time.
One shot failure is one shot too many. M16 A1's can empty a clip of 30 rounds in 2.8 seconds. Try taking 30 shots and the entire vest is going to get hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly.
Good. You take the vest with the gap over the heart. I'm sure not going to. No gap is acceptable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised.
Notice in the x-rays that the vests were compromised before the firing even started? Can you guarantee me that the enemy is going to miss the compromised areas 100% of the time just because they can't see them? Do you consider it acceptable to get hit even one time by an AK or M16 bullet? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Pepper an Interceptor vest and the same thing would happen. Fire at an uncompromised DS vest, and it would outperform Interceptor in every way.
If it's UNCOMPROMISED, sure. You could have bullet proof plastic encasing someone, but if there were gaps, it's no good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Then why are there instances when the Army does equip special forces with this substandard vest?
If the Army has banned it, how do you know it's being used by Special Forces?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Why would they classify so much about their tests if DS doesn't stand a chance against Interceptor?
They said it was to keep from giving the enemy unneeded information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Why would they distort statistics and deliberately modify statements of witnesses to something completely different than they recalled?
Please prove these distortions. I saw nothing in any of your sources that indicated that, other than Pinnacle's owner making that unfounded/unproven accusation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
How could so many third-party sources come to such different conclusions about the same tests?
How many 3rd party sources were there, exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
I would assume there's more to this than the Army wants to admit.
There may be, but I doubt we the public would know about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
I call it irresponsible and depraved indifference to human life if they have distorted tests in order to keep a contract with Point-blank for an inferior product.
That's quite an emotional opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
Pinnacle has come up with a brilliant design in body armour and if they haven't been given a fair trial, then that's not irresponsible; that's a criminal act against life.
Why hasn't Pinnacle agreed to testing by an independent third party agreeable to both them and the Army, then? That would solve a lot of this dispute, don't you think?


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Old 06-13-2009, 09:38 PM   #53
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I'm sorry, but there was so much I didn't understand just there. Could you please explain it again?

I do see you criticizing dragon skin for some faults that interceptor has, but I don't seem to know which ones you mean.

Why not watch youtube and tell me how many of those DS videos show the armour failing... actually failing. Some cameramen claim that their footage was altered to something completely different. If I test were done where DS was subjected to punishment it was not designed for, it would not be regarded as a failure of the vest, yet many are stated as such.

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Old 06-13-2009, 09:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
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I'm sorry, but there was so much I didn't understand just there. Could you please explain it again?

I do see you criticizing dragon skin for some faults that interceptor has, but I don't seem to know which ones you mean.
Could you specify what you find confusing, please?


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Old 06-13-2009, 09:57 PM   #55
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The parts that neglect to take into account Interceptor's weak points.

Remember that DS provides full torso protection. So if shots were taken at Interceptor armour's exposed points near the shoulders and under the armpits, they would fail all ballistic tests as well. If you are suggesting that DS fails because it exposes critical organs, then Interceptor should be cast down as well.
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:59 PM   #56
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Think this is a Kavar's topic.


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Old 06-14-2009, 12:12 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
If you have a gap in the mesh that exposes the heart, there is still a LOT of the vest that still works properly. Notice in the X-rays that the test shots were made at the locations where the discs left the body exposed? I don't believe our enemies had X-ray vision to know where to shoot. If you fired at it with an Ak, I wouldn't put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas, but the majority of the shots would still have been stopped in the areas that hadn't been compromised.
It does only take one bullet to kill you, you know. If you don't "put it past there being a few hits at the exposed areas" then you should know that you're probably dead if you're in this scenario.


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Old 06-14-2009, 12:13 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
The parts that neglect to take into account Interceptor's weak points.

Remember that DS provides full torso protection. So if shots were taken at Interceptor armour's exposed points near the shoulders and under the armpits, they would fail all ballistic tests as well. If you are suggesting that DS fails because it exposes critical organs, then Interceptor should be cast down as well.
DS doesn't protect under the armpits or near the shoulders, either, from what I saw on the pro-DS video of the guy shooting the DS armor--it looked like any other vest to me when the guy took it off the dummy. No armor protects the armpit or near the shoulders, except maybe a chainmail shirt (which isn't bullet proof anyway), because you have to be able to move your arms freely. Neither scale nor plate armor allows the necessary mobility, so I expect to see those exposure points in any bullet-resistant vest. The military is trained to aim for center-mass (center of the chest or back), not the shoulder or armpit, and if you have your arm up so that your armpit is exposed, you're doing something wrong. In addition, failure at the shoulder at most exposes the subclavian artery in terms of critical structures. It does not expose the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, spine, or GI tract.


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Old 06-14-2009, 12:18 AM   #59
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Quote:
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It does not expose the heart, lungs, spleen, liver, spine, or GI tract.
@D_Y

Hint: The DS does expose these things in the heat.

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Old 06-14-2009, 04:22 PM   #60
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After what happened in 1993, I wouldn't trust NBC to test the Ronco® Turnip Twaddler™, let alone a bulletproof vest.


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Old 06-14-2009, 09:05 PM   #61
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prone to failure at high temperatures exposes things at high temperatures...so I'm not sure what distinction you're making DY.

The Army's test results were clear and the armor clearly did not do what they expected it to. Any opinions regarding test tampering would have to have some proof behind them to indicate the Army's testing was anything but valid and truthful. Otherwise it boils down to one "expert" opinion against another and one test against another, and having served in the military I can tell you what test they'll go with every time regardless of what weapon, vehicle, product, etc... is being tested.


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Old 06-14-2009, 10:01 PM   #62
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prone to failure at high temperatures exposes things at high temperatures...so I'm not sure what distinction you're making DY.
Semantics determine the truth, you know.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
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Old 06-14-2009, 11:33 PM   #63
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Some of the recent posts were more suited for PMs and so were deleted/edited. Carry on.

Darth_Yuthura, we gave you fair warning that if the topic stayed serious it would get moved. The moderating staff talked it over and Jeff made the decision to move it to Kavar's. To clarify my position--as super-moderator promoted from Star Wars Knights moderator, I can, when needed, moderate anywhere, including Ahto. It doesn't matter to me if we don't agree on a subject. As long as people follow the rules and mod instructions, we'll never have a problem.


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Last edited by Jae Onasi; 06-14-2009 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 06-14-2009, 11:35 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Darth_Yuthura, we gave you fair warning that if the topic stayed serious it would get moved. The moderating staff talked it over and Jeff made the decision to move it to Kavar's.
I even tried to keep it light-hearted by posting Pete's Dragon and Dragonite

_EW_



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Old 06-14-2009, 11:49 PM   #65
Jae Onasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
I even tried to keep it light-hearted by posting Pete's Dragon and Dragonite

_EW_
I know--and I got a chuckle out of them, too.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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Old 06-20-2009, 03:27 AM   #66
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Well with my drummer coming from the Army, he told me of the test of his body armor that they did. They got a vest and fired quite a number of rounds of 7.62mm from an M16 and only one round punctured the armor. One wise guy said, "Well that's all well and good but the enemy is using AK-47's." The First Seargeant then proceeded to fire rounds from an AK-47 and it made it through in significantly less, but with the grouping the First seargent was using(less than 1 inch), it is pretty impressive. I would rather wear that 28lb vest that I could trust with a 3 round burst from just about any small arms fire than a 50% chance that within 2 rounds it goes through a 47 lb vest. That's 19 lbs more ammo I could carry.

Lets look at the facts.
5 times the cost.
extreme temperature failure.
Inadequate protection.
More weight.

Gee can't imagine why the Army wouldn't be jumping at the chance to have Dragon Skin.

note: I would have been more specific with the numbers of rounds, but I wouldn't want to let the whole world know just how many rounds they need to make it through our body armor. But I will say that it was significantly more than triple the failure numbers of Dragon Skin.

Another note: The Army banned Dragon Skin in 2006. It was tested in May 2004. Don't know why you keep saying it was banned before it was tested.

Here's a far better description
http://op-for.com/2007/05/dragon_skin_redux.html

And because people like vidya
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003510.html
Neal inspecting the hole where DS failed and Interceptor wouldn't have.


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Old 06-22-2009, 09:27 AM   #67
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Okay, it's clear that Interceptor has the clear advantage of being able to stand up to the elements much better than Dragon Skin. I cannot deny that is its strength in terms of ability to take non-projectile punishment where you have a more complex structure with dragon skin.

If Pinnacle were to come up with something other than using an adhesive to hold the disks in place, Dragon skin will not be as reliable. If they were to interweave the discs with kevlar, or some other mechanical fastener, then that would change, but even with what they have, it's by far better at stopping projectiles than Interceptor. But given as they have to take abuse from other elements, then I would admit that Interceptor wins that battle.

And here are some counter facts to those that were posted above:

-It actually has gone down in price and now is 1.5 times the price of Interceptor
-Greater torso protection than Interceptor
-Flexible
-Covers more of the torso than Interceptor

+It's heavier, can't deny that
+vulnerable to other elements encountered on the battlefield

Whatever else it may have the edge on, that vulnerability to the elements makes Dragon Skin is a severe problem that Pinnacle needs to deal with before it would be accepted by the Military.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:16 AM   #68
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If they can solve the delamination problem and lower the weight, I think it would be a terrific product. I hope they solve those problems.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

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My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

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Old 06-22-2009, 11:13 AM   #69
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^^Me too It would definatley be the perfect armor if they could solve those problems. Our troops will need that type of armor if it is improved, times are definately more tense then before, the troops will need the best we can give them...


you very much
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:22 PM   #70
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couldn't agree more, especially with the tension on the Korean Peninsula right now. I'd also love to see them improve the design of the Hummer that the troops are using, but that's another discussion entirely


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