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Old 06-16-2009, 01:35 PM   #41
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Lord of Hunger, Yoda didn't necessarily absorb the lightning the same way Nihilius could absorb stuff. Yoda's version was more of an advanced way of deflecting Force powers.


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Old 06-16-2009, 03:21 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor View Post
. Okay, how is absorption, an advanced form of deflection?
i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

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Old 06-16-2009, 04:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor View Post
Lord of Hunger made some excellent points on that one. Especially on how Palps was able to defeat the Jedi so easily. The old Jedi Order stayed pretty much the same throughout its lifetime. The Sith order changed many times in order to adapt. The Jedi refused to open themselves up to new philosophy and points of view.
So this is one thing that I would say leans more in Kreia's favor. She was the first one to use the Potentium theory of the Force and she was a Gray Jedi. Palps was but a dedicated darksider who really cheated his way to beat out Plageous, but never truly became that much greater.

Don't forget as well that Kreia beat three masters outside the Trayus core, so with that power, she'd be so much greater than she was on Dantooine. And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything.

Otherwise, it would be that Star Trek ships are more powerful than SW because a ship the size of a star destroyer can destroy an entire planet. Just go on direct observations and don't presume one didn't do something or COULD have been able to do something... just say what they've actually done.
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:35 PM   #44
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i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers. Yoda is REALLY old, its probably an ancient technique forgotten by the time of ep 3. Besides, all Jedi have the cappability to use dark side powers, just they're not trained to. Of course they need to "have the dark side in them", but tbh, once theyve been shown, they can adapt.

That's exactly what I was trying to say.

Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.


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Old 06-17-2009, 12:45 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Hmm...I will have to look that up. This aspect of our respective theories greatly depends on our understanding of what the Force is frankly made of. I will point out, however, that Yoda was able to absorb Force Lightning with no ill effects I'm aware of.
One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).
The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
I meant in terms of Nihilus using his Vampiricy on Sidious.
It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
The moment Sidious starts going Super Saiyan and preparing his Force Storm, his guard will be dropped and this would allow Nihilus to reach in and suck the life right out of him. And boy would he reach in, a Force User of that power would be a three course meal at best.
Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Because? I don't understand the mechanic here. Drain Life is the ability to leech life energy from one person to another. Transfer Consciousness is the ability to move a spirit from one host to another.
You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Well this implies that Drain Life would be among his abilities, though again Palpatine's character is contrary to the sort of persona that actively uses and expands upon that ability.
A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.

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For one thing, wouldn't drain life help with the aging effect of other Dark Side abilities? Just speculating.
Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
If so he'd be a living God, or at least on the scale of Nihilus in that regard. It would be like the Exile using her passive Vampiricy on 1,000,000 clones of each of her companions. 1 crew was enough to give her to power to take on Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia, the scale you (or rather the EU) are (is) suggesting for Palpatine would make invincible. However, it is not entirely implausible for him to have that level of access given that he used Battle Meditation on whole lot of people....
Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Okay, this is also new: Midiclorian Manipulation requiring Drain Life? It would explain Plageus' downfall in the story....
As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates.

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Originally Posted by GreyJediMaster View Post
i dont think thats quite what he meant. When Yoda absorbed the lightning from Dooku and later Palpatine, he was using a technique that allowed him to accept it without it harming him, then channeling it back to its creator with his own force powers.
Absorb/Dissipate Energy and Reflect/Channel Energy.


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Old 06-17-2009, 07:44 PM   #46
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And I really don't believe that Palpatine allowed himself to be beaten by Windu for Anakin to act. Once you have characters getting excuses, that disrupts everything. .

Given Palpatine's penchant for manipulation, I think the idea of his toying with Windu till Anakin showed up isn't nearly as unlikely as you'd believe, nor is it an excuse. Allowing Anakin to be party to Windu's death basically hastened his quickening to the darkside. Besides, Darth Sidious seemed to recover quite nicely for someone so "beaten down".


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Old 06-20-2009, 06:29 AM   #47
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When Mace Windu, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto turned up to arrest Palpatine only one of them was truly capable of winning that fight, even with a slim chance and that was Windu. He had Vaapad, a technique putting him close to using the dark side (or it was a dark side technique I cannot remember).

Palpatine did infact get the jump on the Jedi Masters using his skill with a lightsaber to slay three of them before coming up against one of the bets duellists in history.

Not only this but Palpatine shrouded his dark side movements, and blinded the council to the force.

I am however a firm believer that allot of the power of the Jedi was lost over the years leading to the rise of Palpatine. With many of their teaching lost (especially some of their more ancient teachings during KotOR 2, as-well as just before it.)

Kreia, knew allot more then she ever let on, and we never truly saw her true power I think, it was only on Malachor that we truly began to see what she was, her clever use of Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat, the proof of her subtle manipulations and the death of three Jedi Masters by stripping the force away from them. She also like Palpatine hid her movements, even Atris, who had by the time she met the exile again had fallen to the dark side did not notice Kreia, it was only later that she realised who it was that was accompanying the Exile.

TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:17 AM   #48
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TBH, they are both powerful. But Kreia may know allot of ancient techniques and secrets that Palpatine himself did not have access to and so my opinion is Kreia would win.

This is very debatable, after all Palpatine had access to the Telos Holocron. (featured in the Jedi vs Sith guide) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_Holocron among others and in it there is an entire section of Palpatine talking about finding ancient sith knowledge, let alone what is in the Telos holocron itself.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:27 PM   #49
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One energy is not another and Yoda was actively absorbing/dissipating and channeling the lightning back, you implied Nihilus would "feed" off of it automatically... big difference. There is no 'automatic' when attacking something with the force, unless they are unprepared or not force sensitive.

The Living Force is essentially Life Energy (Yoda's own words).
The Dark Side is essentially Death Energy (Yoda's own words again).

Feeding upon another's Living Force like Nihilus does he would be at the minimum weakened to incapacitated, or simply incompatible if he tried to feed off of Dark Side energy.
Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.
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It isn't Vampiricy... not in the traditional sense... against someone who has such knowledge he would have to breach their defense to cause any sort of damage to the subject. Also Nihilus would be less effective in staving off the other party if their defense held because he would have to maintain concentration to keep his power 'up' so his attack would be automatic the next round.

Your 'guard' would not be down... you can still take actions while you focus on creating or controlling the storm (pending your Concentration Skill, D6 game mechanic). While you do suffer penalties for having the power up... you can indeed still act, though with similar penalties as Nihilus would have above for maintaining the power in combat.
You do make a good case here.
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You must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master your own energy to keep it intact after death.

Requirements for Transfer Life: Absorb/Dissipate Energy, Accelerate healing, Control Pain, Detoxify Poison, Emptiness, Hibernation Trance, Reduce Injury, Remain Conscious, Resist Stun, Life Detection, Life Sense, Magnify Senses, Receptive Telepathy, Sense Force, Injure/Kill, Telekinesis, Farseeing, Projective Telepathy, Accelerate Another's Healing, Control Another's Pain, Feed On the Dark Side, Inflict Pain, Return Another To Consciousness, Transfer Force, Drain Life Essence, Affect Mind, Control Mind, Dim Another's Senses.
Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.
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A Sith Lord such as Sidious would have many such capabilities or knowledge, while not used in his day to day actions he can have it in his 'aresenal' if needed. He also is noted to possess a plethora of other abilities.
Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. Only the following individuals besides her had access to the lessons of the Trayus Academy:

Darth Nihilus
Darth Sion
Darth Revan
Sith Assassins of the Sith Triumvirate
The Jedi Exile and her companions
The True Sith

Since Nihilus and Sion died with the Assassins, Revan is presumably dead, and the Exile and her companions likely never used them since canon dictates they chose the light, only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.
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Doesn't work like that... the power goes to you, is corrupted in doing so, to fuel your own power.
I see. You certainly seem to understand Force power mechanics better than I do.
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Well he was the last of the Sith Lords... so he had much knowledge at his disposal.
True, and most of what he probably did in the empire was to do a lot more studying since Tarkin and Vader were running the show.
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As said above you must know the various ebbs and flows of energy to be able to master things Plageus was stated to have mastered.

I'm not saying one is a shoe-in to beat the other, just your are discounting one party a whole bunch in your estimates.
Show spoiler


However, you are right that I should not entirely discount Palpatine in that he was essentially the height of what a New Sith Wars-on Sith could become. But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.


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Old 06-20-2009, 05:12 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V. :
Malachor V as well all know was planet of the True Sith who we know is in fact the ancient sith (kreia likely referred to them as such do Kun and Revan's sith) This means that the knowledge is likely of the same sort found on other sith worlds like Korriban but the difference between the two is that Malachor (at the time of the Mandalorian War) was untouched and Korriban wasn't. Now the only technique that one could make any argument for being unique to Malachor is the "force drain/insta kill" (or whatever you want to call it) that Traya uses on the 3 jedi on Dantooine.

I would like to point out that Sidious has access to all of Naga Sadow's knowledge through Sadow's holocron(among others). In the "jedi vs sith guide," Palpatine states that he has been to the following ancient sith worlds/moons (or atleast had a heavy/powerful sith presence) Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Dromund Kaas,Thule and we know that he has been to Korriban several times,he very likely visited Zoist and Vjun among others. And this isn't counting the information passed down from the members of Bane's order, in which the founder had learned from Revan,Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron(though she was apart of the New Sith Wars) so he likely knew some of the same techniques as Traya, plus there we surely knew techniques invented/discovered. As I said before Sidious also had the Telos holocron which has a wealth of knowledge from many sith of all era's and the known gatekeepers include the likes of Ajunta Pall,Bane,Naga Sadow and Sidious himself later.


So I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that Palpatine didn't get the chance to study on Malachor (though he knows of the planets existence and destruction and makes reference to it)

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only the True Sith Empire would still be able to pass on those teachings. Somehow the likelihood of Palpatine gaining access to that advantage is very low, especially since such teachings would be limited the Sith Emperor and any other True Sith in the Empire as opposed to recruits.
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True Sith Empire=Ancient sith and Palpatine had access to their knowledge. The difference in name is because Kreia doesn't view the Sith empire that Revan created as real sith. So she called the Ancient sith, "true sith" to avoid confusion between the two.

And for the record, Darth Maul was stated to trained in the jedi arts and not just by Qui-gon. (Dark Side Source book I believe) so even kreia's jedi knowledge wouldn't be too far ahead of Sidious's jedi knowledge if at all since also had jedi holocrons such as the Tedryn Holocron.

Quote:
Also, we've seen that even the ghosts of the Old Sith Wars Sith tended to own post Old Sith Wars Sith (Krayt was nearly defeated by Nihilus, Andeddu, and Bane, then severely wounded by Karness Muur, while Wyrlock was nearly defeated by Andeddu himself).
Bane(who Sidious had Bane's knowledge),Nihilus and Anddedu's holocron (who count dooku had before Krayt which opens the possibility for Palpatine to have study from it) caught Krayt off guard and who's health wasn't perfect at this time hence his reason for talking to them in the first place. I haven't read onward in Legcacy so I can't comment on Muur and Anddedu's battle though Anddedu was killed but Krayt and Wyrlock don't have any feats that put them on the level of "Post Old Sith War" sith such as Bane, Caedus, Vader, and Palpatine or Galen Marek (who although was never anything more than a dark jedi, was trained by Vader in the darkside and even by the of TFU had very little jedi knowledge compared to his sith/dark jedi knowledge so his name is worth mentioning here)

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Imagine if an Old Sith Wars Sith Lord like, say, Ajunta Pal met Darth Vader in the flesh rather than being a ghost. Ajunta would crush Vader into spare parts!
What has Ajunta Pall done other than being one of the original sith lords? Being a ancient sith simply isn't enough to make that assumption.

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Likewise, Krayt would never have been able to actually stand against the real Nihilus, Andeddu, or Karness Muur.
I never thought Krayt wasn anything special.


I also don't think Kreia's lightsaber skills are superior to Sidious's.

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Old 06-21-2009, 01:59 AM   #51
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Straight up saber brawl would go to Palpatine. He was able to shred three Jedi masters, broke a bit of a sweat with Windu, and dueled Yoda to a draw. Kreia? Combat is her weak point. She's mediocre to awful with a saber unless she's TK-ing it.

Scheming ability: Tough call, but I hand it to Kreia. The main problem is that Palpatine's stunts got found out eventually. Meanwhile, while we know she was playing EVERYONE in K2 like cheap flutes, Exile included, we can only guess at the REST of what that misplaced Reverend Mother managed to do under everyone's nose. We still don't know her true identity! Ever notice she was the ONLY one in K2 who seemed to know anything about the "True Sith?" Was she one of the ones who set up the Mandalorians? Did she set events in motion that led Revan down the Dark Path and right to the Star Forge? The fact we don't know, and the fact she worked so quietly that no one either noticed or could do anything about it, is definitely impressive.

Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.

Ambition: Palpatine wanted the Galaxy, like any meglomaniac. Kreia essentially wanted to kill God. Palpatine succeeded in his ambition, but definitely had his sights set lower than Madame Kreia.


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Old 06-21-2009, 02:35 AM   #52
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Also, Darth Yuthura, Kreia may have beat three Jedi Masters, but how did she do it? She did it the wimpy way, by simply using some uber powered Drain Life (how else would they lose their presence in the Force?). Palpatine, on the other hand, killed three masters with one saber. That tells me Kreia was either a wimp, or too lazy to pull out a saber.
If Palpatine could have done the same, he would have. Sith have no ambiguity in regards to honor, so if old Palpy could just kill them in an instant... he would have. Kriea wasn't just lazy; no one as powerful as she/yoda/palpatine would have become so powerful by being lazy. Palpatine attacked with a lightsaber because he wasn't powerful enough to beat his enemies with the Force.

Darth Vader was all brute strength and no brains... he could win with a lightsaber, but lose in every other way that mattered. A lightsaber is easy to kill with, but a skilled Force user could entirely negate that advantage.
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Old 06-21-2009, 07:35 AM   #53
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Sith Skillz: Considering the amount of knowledge and techniques available to Palpatine was probably limited big time by Bane's Rule of Two, as compared with Kreia's encyclopedic knowledge as both Trayus's guardian and a Jedi Archivist? She hands him his sorry butt in this category.
She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.

She has Malachor and her jedi knowledge vs the following for Sidious.

Sidious has the Telos Holocron: which is basically a sith version of the jedi's great holocron and dates back to the time of the ancient sith given some of it's gatekeepers which inlcude the likes of Ajunta Pall,Darth Bane and Naga Sadow. I would like to point out that two if the mentioned gatekeepers were ancient sith and Darth Bane's sith knowledge comes from Revan's, Nadd's and Belia Darzu's holocron so he has some rich knowledge to put in despite him living only 1000 years before Sidious. Count Dooku also extracted the knowledge from Darth Anddedu's holocron so this is another source of sith knowledge that Palpatine could potentially have access to. That's a lot of sith knowledge coming only from holocrons.

Sidious has also visited the following worlds/moons, Korriban,Vjun,Khar Delba,Khar Shian,Thule and Drmun Kaas. So I don't see how Traya's sith knowledge, Malachor (it's the only known sith planet she traveled to,to study on that we know of and thus can only judge her on that) competes with Palpatine's sith knowledge and mind you that he had access to other force organizations, which I could post on if you like.

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Old 06-21-2009, 12:01 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Now this I have to say is one of the most interesting commentaries I've seen so far on the nature of the Force. Rather than the sides of the Force being based upon abstract codes of morality, you are implying that essentially they are based upon the cycle of life and death. I'd find such a system much more preferable, although since life and death are closely interrelated it would essentially explain why the problem with the Jedi is stagnation and the problem with the Sith is self-destruction.
That is and how I will always view it, watch ESB and Yoda's comments carefully it alludes heavily to this. Then in Episode 1 Qui-Gon using the term 'The Living Force' it all but seals it (for me).

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Since I only read these things off of Wookiepedia, I have never seen this list. It is quite extensive.
It is a very powerful ability and as such you have to have a certain mastery over the force to use it. Also, I treat Wookiepedia as being a 'nice' resource but it is not very comprehensive IMHO anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Quite powerful. However, I would point out in the spirit of the original topic that Kreia not only had access to both many of the same Sith teachings that Palpatine did and many of the elite teachings of the Jedi, but ALSO the teachings of Malachor V.
Interesting theory but not shown to be true in the EU, see the modern levels of power are actually stronger as Palapatine would have access to all the things Kreia boasts plus others that were discovered or created in the time between the eras (Create Force Storm, Doppelganger, Transfer Life, Feed on the Dark Side, Enhanced Coordination, and others).

To analyze the Sith Lord trio from TSL; Nihilus has Drain Life (Or a variation thereof) other than that he seems to be a rather meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord in abilities other than his main one. Kreia can Drain Life but on a more limited scale (can defend against Nihilus it seems at certain moments), she has advanced Telekinetic abilities, but demonstrates no other major powers/abilities I suspect she is also a meat-and-potatoes Sith Lord but with a unique goal (Suspicions garnered from Exile's final fight on Malachor with her). Now Sion is a basic Sith Lord who has advanced his Control of the Force to be able to keep himself going bodily when others would expire, but he is quite defeat-able in other ways than talking him out of it as the Exile does.*

*Sion's "Immortality" could be disrupted by a rather common Jedi Power of Telekinesis but said challenging Jedi's ability to Alter the force would have to override Sion's Control of the Force to dissipate him. Then there is another common power (In the modern era) Control Anothers Pain, Sion's immense pain is also a key to his strength and 'life', eliminate that and you could then defeat him physically.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
But there is obviously a major difference in the power level of the Sith from either era, and Old Sith Wars era seems to have things in their favor.
You seem to equate things to to the old era = more ability/power it is shown to us in the various EU stories to be the opposite I'm afraid.

Palapatine has demonstrated levels of power that all the old guard of the Sith couldn't even muster or at best could match in a limited way. Remember in this dual Palapatine has 4000 years on Kreia, that is valuable in that there are things he would know that she wouldn't, and very little she would know that can't be matched by Palapatine in some way. But this is actually somewhat non-sequitur as I was addressing your theories on Nihilus' abilities being god-like and they aren't, in the modern SW era anyway.

Though if the two Sith lords were indeed having a knock-down-drag-out fight their known powers wouldn't be but a small part of the actual battle. IMHO against an unknown opponent you definitely don't want to use 'flashy' powers you want to keep it simple and controlled feel your opponent out during the fight and if there is a weakness that comes apparent then exploit it, the battle would be fierce but in the end it would come up to who won the 'die rolls' if you know what I mean.


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Old 06-24-2009, 12:58 PM   #55
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Palpatine would win against Kreia. He is way more better in manipulation than she could ever be. He could do it with her like the Exile did with Sion.



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Old 06-24-2009, 01:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post
Let's see, two of Star Wars' greatest philosophers and manipulators.... Tough call, but I'd go with Kreia. Her mastery and understanding of the Force is far great than Palpatine's (she make predictions that reach farther into the timeline than he ever could), and I doubt that Palpatine could have defeated the Exile at all. Why? 'Cause the Exile is the second most powerful individual in Star Wars history, right after Darth Nihilus. Force Vampires always have the edge over normal Force Users, so even Kreia couldn't stop the Exile.

Plus, Palpatine relies heavily on the Force, whereas Kreia has learned to use it minimally yet precisely. Palpatine would try and raise an army of clones to kill her, but Kreia would simply sneak in and use the Force to pinch a single artery in his brain that would cause instant death.

All in all, Kreia is the predecessor of Palpatine and easily his superior. Besides, the Jedi that Palpatine killed were so pathetic that 9 year old Anakin Skywalker could have killed them just by running them over with his podracer.
Your logic seriously failed in this topic. Palpatine is arguably the most powerful Sith Lord, not Nihilus, and the Exile is nowhere near that. The only reason Exile can beat Nihilus is because Nihilus, who is a "black hole", is trying to suck Exile, who is another "black hole" in the Force. Nihilus utterly failed. And he payed the price for that. His death.

You really need to improve your knowledge about EU, seriously. Jedi of Galactic Republic era (that means Anakin, Windu, Yoda, Kenobi, Sidious, and more) are the best generation of Jedi. If I remember correctly George Lucas stated all of this.

And even more, Palpatine collect all the holocron from all places in the galaxy and study all of them. He even create the real force lightning storm, that can create wormholes.

I never see Kreia do something that can protect him against Sidious' attacks. Another failed logic by you.

Your logic on this one is ridiculous it's not even laughable. Seriously, look at the threads in KMC and learn again.

All of Kreia's supporters here have a really flawed logic. Do you even read books about Sidious and his capabilities? AFAIK Kreia doesn't have anything to put her as the winner here.

Also, see these pictures. They will talk for me.
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/r.../Wormhole1.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/r.../Wormhole2.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/r.../Wormhole3.jpg
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/r.../Wormhole4.jpg

How will Kreia counter something like that? And don't make pure baseless assumption, "we never see the true potential" phrase, and what-ifs again. It's boring, not entertaining, and not smart move. Learn to use facts.

Sidious for the win. Try again.


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Old 06-25-2009, 01:01 AM   #57
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its proven...in the game its said...!!!
no master from the present would match an ancient sith lord in battle...
if we apply this to the whole universe...palpatine would be no match for kreia !!
kreia is a super force user !! SHE KILLS 3 jedi masters without touching them and not just kill them..also strips the force out from them... !!

and a fact if we think about this in lightsaber combat...
palpatine matches with yoda.. (when yoda is using only the ATARU form)
AND KREIA WITHOUT HANDS CAN HANDLE 3 LIGHTSABERS APPLYING ALMOST THE 7 LIGHTSABER FORMS !!!

kreia is more sith lord than palpatine...

HAHAH at some time... palpatine just by being in front of nihilus would become a force zombie...at nihilus's service...

and lets imagine that palpatine archives to get his super lightning upon nihilus...
what does it do to him ?? he's not even human anymore !! he's a wound in the force !! the lightning just may burn nihilus's robes..and nothing else..
palpy...u'r a loser in front of any ancient dark lord... im sorry


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Old 06-25-2009, 10:09 AM   #58
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^
Look at KMC, there's already a thread like this. If you're shocked, don't blame me. Sorry, the comparation can only be used for Sith in Marka Ragnos era against Sith in Revan's era.

GL has already stated that the prime of Jedi and Sith are when time of Sidious, Windu, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. See KMC if you want proof.

I still tolerate your kind of post, but in other sites, no one will even support you. Prove it that Kreia has mastered all 7 forms, because no source has stated that. You speak nonsense.

Sidious will destroy Kreia, accept it. See other forums and educate yourself, so you won't sound so silly.

Do you even know that Sidious can use force drain? Check his respect threads, dude.

Another failed attempt of yours. And if you're wondering why I'm so hostile, that's because your way of debating is ridiculous it's not even funny and laughable. Don't even deserve a LOL.


As always, it's up to you to decide the winner. It's your mind after all. Just give some thoughts about my post before deciding it, okay?


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Old 06-25-2009, 01:09 PM   #59
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@ Ultimate Vader: Again, just like in the Death Star vs. Star Forge thread, I attempt to have a civilized debate and your reaction is to attack the poster. I admit, I've in the past gone overboard with the emotional content of my posts in heavy debates, but I never attack the poster, I always attack the content or at least try to (I've had to cut entire paragraphs from my posts because I was worried that they might be insulting). I do not know if you are having some sort of personal life problems but whatever you reasons are we are just trying to have a civilized debate on these forums. And it's not about being right for one thing, since you learn the most when you are wrong. Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.

But I think I'm done with this thread as I've said all I can say for now. I'm hoping to work more on my arguments against the moral superiority of the Jedi.

Thank you all. Cheers,

Lord of Hunger


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Old 06-25-2009, 08:22 PM   #60
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She doesn't hand him anything here. Traya's only advantage is Malachor but as I said above, it is just another Ancient sith world, the only thing that makes it different then Korriban for instance, is the fact that it wasn't raided so it's knowledge was intact. Other Malachor V the only other sith world that we know for a fact she has been to is Korriban and she didn't step off the Ebon Hawk.
Actually, I was thinking about how much access she had. With the whole Jedi Archives and Malachor's Sith collection, she had the keys to the motherlode. Librarians are dangerous in that regard - if it exists in the stacks, they know how and where to find it. Worse is that Kreia actually knows how to put it all to use.

Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.


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Old 06-25-2009, 08:59 PM   #61
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Kreia's like Oracle in that her physical limitations have zero effect on her frightening mental capacity. Palpatine wins hands down in a fight, but it would be a very close call on a battle of wits. I'm still putting cash on the librarian over the politician.
I still think Palpatine has her in force knowledge (if you disagree then, just say so and I'll post the rest of the knowledge that I know he had access to, that I'm aware of). If you would like my friend on another site posted a pro Palpatine essay, and in it he has a "chapter" specifically for his force knowledge, now it's a little bias in opinion but the facts are there and he cites his sources.

As far a wit/intelligence goes, I still give it to Palpatine. This is a man who manipulated the entire galaxy and was playing both sides in the clone wars. He has spent extensive time near powerful jedi like Mace and Yoda and neither (or the other 10,000 jedi in the order) had any clue that Palpatine was really the sith lord they were looking for years. He also caused the destruction of outbound flight to lower the jedi numbers,order 66, the trade federations blockade of naboo,hell he convinced the senate to turn against the jedi who just won a war for them.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:20 AM   #62
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Redhawke's comments have given me some interesting views on the Force to add to my perspective.
Why thank you!

I would love to get some of you across a table for some good old fashioned PnP RPG action, I could teach a thing or two to a lot of you youngins! As it was taught to me and so on... kinda Jedi-like even!


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Old 06-27-2009, 10:15 PM   #63
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It depends on which Sidious we're talking: Dark Empire Sidious or RotS Sidious. And by depends, I mean how long it would take for him to rip Kreia apart and then find out who does her makeup. Either way, Sidious wins be a very large margin.
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:26 AM   #64
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Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.

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Old 06-28-2009, 12:06 PM   #65
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Lord Sidious - it was stated that he is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

For one reason, he has a lot more knowledge at his disposal, since about 4000 years are between them - Kreia has no way to know about those secrets that were uncovered during that time, like Midichlorian manipulation, Life transfer, Force wormhole. Also, he had a Jedi Holocron (Bodo-Baas' if I remember correctly) and I think it's safe to say that he learned quite a bit of the Jedi's knowldge, too.

Two, Sidious often visited Korriban to seek out the Force Ghosts of the ancient ones, so he possibly learned a lot from them in both Force abilities and lightsaber skills.
I think he did have more the Bodo-Bass' holocron, I believe the clone troopers also took more jedi holocrons when they attacked the temple. Plus he has knowledge from other force groups.
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:58 PM   #66
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I noticed a few replies mentioned midichlorians, but what are midichlorians? The Jedi of Kreia's era believed the force was an energy field that was all around us, penetrating us. The ignorance of the Clone War era Jedi could have led them to believe that the force was only available via midichlorians(which would mean that the Exile would have had to cleanse herself of the critters.) In Ep IV Obi-Wan echoes Kreia's description of the force(or she echoes him) indicating that while in the Void Qui-Gon gained and passed on the knowledge of no 'chlorians.

But I digress, this is a debate for another topic.
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Old 07-04-2009, 08:50 AM   #67
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Eh, I'm not sure who would win. I've never read the books where Palpy comes back and displays his true power, and Kreia never pushed herself to the max. They'd probably a) kill each other b) say "This is stupid. We're both manipulative old windbags, so let's join forces and wipe out the last few Jedi, whaddaya say?"


Chapter 12 of A Soul Adrift is out.

Short stories:
T'katlu: On the planet Felucia, a young apprentice of the Dark Side thinks back to the beginning of her training as she lies in wait for her prey...

All the Time: After four years in the Unknown Regions, the Exile returns to the known galaxy to visit an old enemy.

Broken: A master of the Dark Side finds himself about to lose the one thing he cares about--and he will do anything to stop her from endangering herself.
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