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View Poll Results: Who would win, Revan, Anikan, or a draw?
Revan 38 65.52%
Anikan 12 20.69%
Draw 8 13.79%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Revan vs. Anikan if he didn't have to be in that Darth Vader costume
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:28 PM   #41
TKA-001
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I'll just drop a roll down this well and move on.

Revan was a Sith Lord who was considered to have immense power, with many people speaking highly of him, suggesting this consideration to be more or less accurate. Anakin was a Jedi Knight who was considered to have immense power (Mace Windu himself even said that Anakin was "arguably the most powerful Jedi alive" in the Revenge of the Sith novel). Many spoke highly of him and he has many achievements under his belt in the Clone Wars. Both had extensive experience in leadership positions in wars (Regretfully, we don't know if Revan ever personally led troops, covert teams, and such). Anakin was considered a master in his area of lightsaber combat, along with his high strength in the Force. So was Revan, but we don't know what combat forms he used, or what sort of Force powers he favored.

Who would win? There simply isn't enough information to draw a definitive conclusion. We know much more about Anakin's power than Revan's (very few of his accomplishments have actually been shown in any canonical source), and what his strengths and weaknesses in KOTOR I can't be used to argue because they could be anything. Revan at the height of his power as Dark Lord of the Sith has never actually been shown doing much; Ultimately, we really don't have any way of measuring how powerful or skilled he is except that he was very much so (which isn't enough information).

Complicating the discussion is the factor set by the main post that the Anakin in this case is Anakin without sustaining his injuries. I think I should not here that in the novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine himself notes privately that Vader's real source of weakness in the suit is more psychological than anything else (quote: "Sith power rested not in the flesh, but in the will"). That said, how much weaker Vader was made by his suit is sort of a moot point in this thread. Heading back to the thread's main premise, there is again not enough information on how powerful this hypothetical Vader would be, or in what way. And how old are we talking? Do we mean uninjured Vader shortly after Episode III, where he still can be blinded by pride, arrogance, or sheer anger? Or is it an uninjured Vader many years down the road, where that weakness has been ground down by hardened Sith training and exercises, now a more cautious man? How did he expand that power of his during this time? Did he decide that his swordsmanship was good enough and start investigating more advanced Force techniques and powers, or did he move on to study of other lightsaber forms? Or did he do both? How well did his efforts go? Did dark side corruption start to affect his physical health, like it did with Cronal or the Emperor in the Dark Empire trilogy?

Therein lies the problem, in the end. There are far too many questions like this for both combatants that cannot be answered by canonical information. We don't know enough about the hypothetical Anakin (nor can we, since by nature he is non-canonical and detailed by no published source). We can speculate on how Anakin/Vader would have developed his talents or personality traits without the injuries sustained on Mustafar, but there is not enough information to declare with any certainty how he would have changed; There is no way of knowing how powerful, skilled, or anything else he would be. As for Revan, the same problem exists, albeit with one difference; Rather than simply not even existing, Revan exists, but also has no information detailing his strengths, weaknesses, and [relevant] personality traits, just as the hypothetical Anakin does. Again, we can guess, form theories, speculate, jump around, and prophesy until the spade becomes a shovel, but there are too many holes in the information we have to say who would win. We don't know how powerful either are/would be, we don't know how skilled, we don't know what psychological strengths and weaknesses they would have, and so on.

For this reason, this thread is in reality just about "which character do you like better" more than which character would have better chances of winning in single-combat.


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Old 08-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #42
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...so you are saying that Anakin, who before his transformation in Darth Vader had only used Force Choke once, would be able to defeat someone would probably uses Force Choke regularly?
actualy he used it a few times as vader
The key phrase in that statement is "before his transformation into Darth Vader"


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Old 08-24-2009, 04:55 PM   #43
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yeah i didn't read it right.
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:01 PM   #44
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I think that the whole canon thing is not worth that much anymore. Lucas originally had a story that covered everything from episode 1 to 6 and really didn't intend to make much else beyond that. If he agrees to let KOTOR and the expanded universe become canon, then it means Revan is more powerful than Anakin.

Problem is that if Lucas said something that conflicts with the expanded universe or KOTOR, you don't simply yield to Lucas because he was the creator. I would go with what you observe from the movies/games or what you read in the books. If Anakin never manipulated a star destroyer, then we should assume Starkiller was more powerful in that regard. If Revan had done much greater feats than Anakin, I would rely more on what he could do than what Lucas said.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:21 AM   #45
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But if I need to play by the rules, then I'll do so. I officially declare that in any debate I have/partake in within the LF forums, I disregard the superiority of G-Canon over C-Canon and will judge any character and whatnot based only on in-universe material.
That's fine but you also will have to accept that others you talk to don't have to obey these rules and when the 'canon beast' comes up you may have to re-state this over and over again. And over, and over, and ov... you get the picture.

In Lucas' defense Jedi/Sith displaying such fabled and awesome abilities on screen for you to have your "proof" would have made any reasonable storytelling neigh impossible, not that some parts of the story as told weren't hard enough for some to swallow as it is. This is easier in a comic or writing a book than it is in making a movie, so while some EU character 'pwns all' with his 'uber l33t powers' in a novel I can guarantee you that a movie made of that story would not have much or any of that ultimate power nonsense.

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And of course your PnP character would wipe out everyone combined! With those weapons?
If you are referring to the avatar and sig, that's isn't the right character. I have a whole source book on Red, and when it came time to adjust it for the prequels it didn't actually take long.

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Problem is that if Lucas said something that conflicts with the expanded universe or KOTOR, you don't simply yield to Lucas because he was the creator.
While you indeed don't have to yield to Lucas, by doing so though in a debate you also don't have a leg to stand on in your arguments either, as those who choose to stick with the stated canon will challenge your statements, and rightfully so.


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Old 08-25-2009, 08:22 AM   #46
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Lol, Anakin is spelled wrong, but anyways, I think Anakin would have been the victor. Revan was a magnificent strategist, he was wise and intelligent at the same time, but that doesn't mean anything. Anakin was more powerful, stronger, and was very strong in the Force. He could just force choke Revan and would win. I hope you people aren't voting for Revan because you got to play as him. Revan is not that powerful as you think, if he was, he would have defeated Bastila and the Jedi trying to capture him, and escape before Malak could have blasted his ship. Theofore, Revan is weak and pathethic and should have seen it coming. And if Revan was smart, he would have stayed on the path of the Light Side, so that Malak wouldn't have taken over as Dark Lord of the Sith. He also should have killed his master, Kreia, to show that he has turned to the Dark Side, instead of going far away and was never to be seen again. If he had killed Kreia, he would have saved a lot of trouble for the Exile in the second game. There I go, I proved that Revan is weak with many reasons to go along with it.
And I laugh at them.
Revan very nearly destroyed the Republic in a very short amount of time, while Anakin who had unlimited soldiers behind him, it took about what to destroy the CIS? 20 years?
The thing about Anakin that makes him inferior is that he was so incredibly headstrong and arrogant, that it was pretty much his own fault he lost all his limbs and nearly burned on Mustafar, and oh yeah, Revan was shot at by his own apprentice with a huge ship and managed to live.
Anakin was way to attached as well, refusing to kill Palpatine when it was discovered who he was.
And Padme, who he was so attached to that he would reveal all the Republic's secrets to the Droids if both were captured with 0% chance of escaping and forced to watch Padme be tortured, where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.


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Old 08-25-2009, 09:03 AM   #47
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And I laugh at them.
Revan very nearly destroyed the Republic in a very short amount of time, while Anakin who had unlimited soldiers behind him, it took about what to destroy the CIS? 20 years?
Three years. Three years for the Republic to destroy the CIS.

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Revan was shot at by his own apprentice with a huge ship and managed to live.
Barely. It was luck, and Bastila's healing abilities that saved The Dark Lord on the bridge of his flagship.

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And Padme, who he was so attached to that he would reveal all the Republic's secrets to the Droids if both were captured with 0% chance of escaping and forced to watch Padme be tortured, where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.
That's a ridiculous assumption, based on nothing more than speculation.






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Old 08-25-2009, 11:45 AM   #48
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While you indeed don't have to yield to Lucas, by doing so though in a debate you also don't have a leg to stand on in your arguments either, as those who choose to stick with the stated canon will challenge your statements, and rightfully so.
I wasn't taking a side. I was simply bringing up the matter of canon conflicting with one another. If someone created something and Lucas said that he would not honor it as part of his star wars universe, then that makes that creation moot. If Lucas said that he would allow KOTOR and TFU to be considered canon, then they are worth just as much as any of his creations.

You do make a point about the movies being more difficult to make 'ultimate jedi powers' than novels or even games. But if Lucas wants to redo the movies and make all his Jedi more powerful, then he can do that. Otherwise, I will assume that Darth Vader was not as great as all the Jedi I've seen in the games and the pretrilogy.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:45 AM   #49
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where as Revan did not say a single word of a secret while watching Bastila be tortured.
In my game, Revan told Saul everything.
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Old 08-25-2009, 02:36 PM   #50
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In my game, Revan told Saul everything.
What happens if you do that? (What does Saul say)



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Old 08-25-2009, 07:29 PM   #51
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You find out that Saul knows anything anyway and he's just testing you. He does not torture Bastila but then electrocutes the three of you before he leaves.



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Old 08-25-2009, 07:39 PM   #52
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I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:49 PM   #53
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I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.
Bane also learned his power from Revan, so... therefor you vote for Revan. xD


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Old 08-26-2009, 05:03 AM   #54
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I would admit that I like Revan better than Anakin/Darth Vader, but that is part of the reason why I think Revan is better. I would vote for Darth Bane, Exar Kunn, and Revan all because they had done much more to show their true strength where as Anakin never did anything as great as any of these characters. That doesn't mean he couldn't, but simply hasn't.
That's good reasoning, flashy powers and an attitude aren't worth much if you don't accomplish anything.

Personally, I'm still convinced that Revan would kick Vaderkin's butt. I mean, he doesn't even have any of his real limbs left, what does that say about his battle prowess?
Revan: 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 lightsabers, 2/9 loyal henchman
Vader: None of the above


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Old 08-26-2009, 09:16 AM   #55
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Revan vs. Vader.
Fight!

Revan blasts Vader with force lightning. Vader's life support and limbs all disabled. Revan wins the fight.

I guess that this kind of argument really isn't valid, as there is no real point of reference for comparison.
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:23 AM   #56
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I wasn't taking a side. I was simply bringing up the matter of canon conflicting with one another.
I was also replying not to your whole post but just the part I quoted.

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If someone created something and Lucas said that he would not honor it as part of his star wars universe, then that makes that creation moot. If Lucas said that he would allow KOTOR and TFU to be considered canon, then they are worth just as much as any of his creations.
Here you misunderstand how canon works in Star Wars... they have levels of canon, so things like KotOR are lower then the movies/etc.

G-Canon = Movies/Raidioplays/Screenplays/Lucas Statements/etc.
C-Canon = Most all of the EU... etc.

G-Canon > C-Canon

Is it annoying? Yes, but it is how things are.


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Old 08-26-2009, 03:01 PM   #57
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I'm going to have to agree with TKA-001 here, and say that there's not enough info on either characters (especially Revan) to draw a definitive conclusion. But if I had to guess: Revan. He is the most overpowered and overrated SW character out there, along with the Exile.

But in all seriousness, though, it would be more likely that Anakin would win based on Lucas's statements.


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Old 08-26-2009, 06:19 PM   #58
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G-Canon = Movies/Raidioplays/Screenplays/Lucas Statements/etc.
C-Canon = Most all of the EU... etc.

G-Canon > C-Canon

Is it annoying? Yes, but it is how things are.
The way things are? I think you need to stop playing TFU and stop watching the Original trilogy for a while, because none of it is 'the way things are.'

If in the event that you've got a lot of G-canon that shows Revan able to do impressive tasks beyond what Anakin ever had done, I would say there is much more 'evidence' to support him than Anakin/Vader. That's not to say Anakin wasn't, but he certainly hasn't shown himself to be the powerful Jedi he was supposed to be.

I would say that Darth Maul clearly would beat out Darth Vader, based on how he handled a saberstaff WAY beyond what you've seen in the original trilogy. Vader was clearly not a 'level 9' lightsaber duelist from his miserable performance in the movies, so that disregards Lucas claim that Vader was such a skilled swordsman. I've played the Force Unleashed and could honestly say that Vader was just pathetic (I base this on the player's stats at the beginning of the game, not the boss version)

In the pretrilogy, he clearly made the Jedi much more impressive than they ever were in the original trilogy, so it shows that Lucas wanted more than what Vader ever yielded in terms of Jedi abilities. Why not just reduce the speed and intensity of the Jedi powers to keep Anakin/Vader the most powerful of them all?

Even his own creations put his word to question, so how can you trust it?

He's the creator? Well if he says G-cannon is authentic, then C-canon gets no special supreme authority. Lucas could have denied G-canon and kept Anakin the most powerful Jedi there was, but he allowed it.

So that makes G-canon worth as much as C-canon unless Lucas objects to it.

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Old 08-26-2009, 06:45 PM   #59
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My policy is to debate only what isn't completely arbitrary

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based on how he handled a saberstaff WAY beyond what you've seen in the original trilogy. Vader was clearly not a 'level 9' lightsaber duelist from his miserable performance in the movies, so that disregards Lucas claim that Vader was such a skilled swordsman.
So much for Vader single-handedly killing off more than half of a conclave of Jedi Masters in the Star Wars: Purge comic.


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Old 08-26-2009, 07:01 PM   #60
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So much for Vader single-handedly killing off more than half of a conclave of Jedi Masters in the Star Wars: Purge comic.
Yeah, what's with that?

It's all fictional, so there really is no point to any of this. Based on my perspective, Anakin is not the supreme Jedi Lucas may believe. I made my opinion and I'm not going to change it simply because Lucas has a different one. And given as there is really no means by which to make a comparison, there is really nothing to say any one is better than the other.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:14 AM   #61
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I'm going to have to agree with TKA-001 here, and say that there's not enough info on either characters (especially Revan) to draw a definitive conclusion.
See earlier posts. There is plenty of indicators as to Revan's pre-amnesia powers. Hell, just try and think about it for one moment: Studied under many of the Jedi Masters, naturally strong in the Force, learned Ancient Sith techniques at the Trayus Academy and Korriban, Juyo master, defeated Mandalore the Ultimate.
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But if I had to guess: Revan. He is the most overpowered and overrated SW character out there, along with the Exile.
Yes, very amusing. Perhaps if you studied both characters more intensively, you'd note that both individuals are worthy of a great deal of reverence. The former (Revan) is the first known individual to possibly be above the stereotypical alignment influence of light and dark (the only other individual who may be similar is Cade Skywalker), while the latter (Exile) has an unparalleled level of ability in Force Bonding.
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But in all seriousness, though, it would be more likely that Anakin would win based on Lucas's statements.
And of course, Lucas could turn around and say that Han Solo is a transvestite, but then again Agincourt is debating that point with much more cunning and grace that I can.

But I honestly have to say that KOTOR and TSL both have succeed in uprooting basic Star Wars fundamental systems of analyzing power and morality from within the canon itself. The two games have essentially by nature made the much of Star Wars obsolete. After all, if it is possible for a Sith Lord to be a good person and for the Jedi to be a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites who couldn't give a **** about genocide on Cathar and other worlds, the premise of the movies is shattered. The Light Side/Dark Side moral system cannot function when it has been shown to not cover all things. If a man like Jolee Bindo can turn his back on the Jedi without all the sudden getting the urge to steal candy from babies, then it is just as possible that the Jedi lie when they say they are the heroes. Ultimately, the KOTOR era has given us a revolution: it is actually possible to be a good or evil regardless of what abstract beliefs and titles you hold.

Oh, and here is something that Lucas could have never dreamed of: a strong female lead character who isn't some princess or queen. Or how about: a team of heroes that is about an equal amount of both men and women fully capable of combat and intuition. Leia, as great as she was, was only one bright gall amongst an almost completely male cast. Padme? The level of her character's brainlessness and naivety in Episode III makes me laugh. A lot.


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Old 08-27-2009, 02:34 AM   #62
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If Revan was smart, he would have told the Republic that he will pretend to join the Dark Side, since he didn't, it caused a lot of deaths, including his own apprentice, Darth Malak. So it's Revan's fault for his stupidity. He also disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war, which led to Mandalore the Ultimate's death. He shouldn't have used his power for offense, he should have used it for defense. Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.


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Old 08-27-2009, 05:06 AM   #63
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If Revan was smart, he would have told the Republic that he will pretend to join the Dark Side, since he didn't, it caused a lot of deaths, including his own apprentice, Darth Malak. So it's Revan's fault for his stupidity. He also disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war, which led to Mandalore the Ultimate's death. He shouldn't have used his power for offense, he should have used it for defense.
1) The Republic has proven constantly to be progressively incompetent. Their stagnation resulted in their inability to hold their own against the Mandalorians. Had Revan and Malak not intervened, the Republic would have fallen right there and then. If the Republic could not handle the Mandalorians, there would be no way for them to handle the Ancient/True Sith. The whole purpose of Revan's Sith Empire was to replace the Republic and the equally incompetent Jedi Order with a more powerful and worthy entity. If that failed, the conflict would ultimately serve to make the Republic stronger anyway. The fact that the Republic did so well against the True Sith in the Great Galactic War is a testament to Revan's partial success.
2) The Jedi Order of that time proved completely untrustworthy due to their cover up of the Cathar genocide, unwillingness to protect the Republic in its darkest hour, and the attempted (though failed) destruction of Revan's mind.
3) Mandalore the Ultimate was a genocidal lunatic who commanded the casual elimination of planets and civilizations. As later recognized by Canderous Ordo/Mandalore the Preserver, Mandalore the Ultimate perverted the way of the Mandalorians.
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Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.
Let's get your facts straight.

1) Anakin was partially responsible for the destruction of the Republic and mostly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi. He never at any point saved the Old Republic. His act of betrayal for Sidious made it possible for the New Republic to be made, but that's not the same thing as saving the Republic.
2) When you are comparing Luke to Anakin, essentially you are comparing perhaps THE Greatest Jedi to a self-centered brat who betrayed all of the people who ever gave a **** about him (if he really truly cared for Padme he wouldn't have Force Choked her), slaughtered a bunch of children, killed hundreds of Jedi (innocent and guilty alike), and shoved Sidious' totalitarian regime down everyone's throat. The fact that he "saved" the Galaxy by betraying Sidious is actually just as loathsome as those other acts because he backstabbed his master, proving a lack of integrity. Granted Luke's done some idiotic things, but he mostly proved to be extremely awesome. Trying to even claim that Luke and Anakin are on the same level makes no sense.

Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.


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Old 08-27-2009, 11:20 AM   #64
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Hell, just try and think about it for one moment: Studied under many of the Jedi Masters, naturally strong in the Force, learned Ancient Sith techniques at the Trayus Academy and Korriban, Juyo master, defeated Mandalore the Ultimate.
What does it for me is that Anakin took on eight Jedi and killed them all almost single-handedly. Of course, as this is Anakin pre-Vader suit, I'd say Revan would beat him without the suit. Besides, Anakin was naturally strong in the Force (Lucas confirms he's the Chosen One, and just look at his midichlorian count), and I'm pretty sure that while Anakin learned most things from Obi-Wan, he didn't learn everything from him (a deleted scene from Episode 3 pokes fun at this). Also, there's nothing to confirm that "Older SW Jedi/Sith > Newer Jedi/Sith"

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Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.
Depends entirely at which age Luke is at. If your talking about the Luke from NJO series and on, it wouldn't be as close as you think. Read the Unifying Force and the first issue of Invasion to see my point.


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Old 08-27-2009, 12:52 PM   #65
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Did you know that the Athenians and Spartan militaries were able to hold off a Persian army of over 100,000 with only about 1,500 troops? Numbers really don't measure how great Jedi are because if you threw 100 jedi against either opponent, one at a time; odds are they will kill them all. If you threw a dozen at them, and those dozen weren't concerned with hitting friends, they both would lose. It's really not an accurate way to compare who's better.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:22 PM   #66
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1) The Republic has proven constantly to be progressively incompetent. Their stagnation resulted in their inability to hold their own against the Mandalorians. Had Revan and Malak not intervened, the Republic would have fallen right there and then. If the Republic could not handle the Mandalorians, there would be no way for them to handle the Ancient/True Sith. The whole purpose of Revan's Sith Empire was to replace the Republic and the equally incompetent Jedi Order with a more powerful and worthy entity. If that failed, the conflict would ultimately serve to make the Republic stronger anyway. The fact that the Republic did so well against the True Sith in the Great Galactic War is a testament to Revan's partial success.
2) The Jedi Order of that time proved completely untrustworthy due to their cover up of the Cathar genocide, unwillingness to protect the Republic in its darkest hour, and the attempted (though failed) destruction of Revan's mind.
3) Mandalore the Ultimate was a genocidal lunatic who commanded the casual elimination of planets and civilizations. As later recognized by Canderous Ordo/Mandalore the Preserver, Mandalore the Ultimate perverted the way of the Mandalorians.

Let's get your facts straight.

1) Anakin was partially responsible for the destruction of the Republic and mostly responsible for the destruction of the Jedi. He never at any point saved the Old Republic. His act of betrayal for Sidious made it possible for the New Republic to be made, but that's not the same thing as saving the Republic.
2) When you are comparing Luke to Anakin, essentially you are comparing perhaps THE Greatest Jedi to a self-centered brat who betrayed all of the people who ever gave a **** about him (if he really truly cared for Padme he wouldn't have Force Choked her), slaughtered a bunch of children, killed hundreds of Jedi (innocent and guilty alike), and shoved Sidious' totalitarian regime down everyone's throat. The fact that he "saved" the Galaxy by betraying Sidious is actually just as loathsome as those other acts because he backstabbed his master, proving a lack of integrity. Granted Luke's done some idiotic things, but he mostly proved to be extremely awesome. Trying to even claim that Luke and Anakin are on the same level makes no sense.

Oh, and for the record...if there was a fight between Revan and Luke, I think it'd be Luke who would win. Revan? Yeah, I admire Revan more than most Star Wars characters, but Luke has not only Anakin's level of raw power but Revan's level of master. It'd be close, but Luke would emerge victorious.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:34 PM   #67
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The way things are?
Yup and I'm sensing confusion so I'll try and elaborate Star Wars Canon Explination

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The Holocron is divided into 5 levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2].

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.
There you go. And as much as you want it not to be so, it is the way it is.


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Old 08-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #68
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There you go. And as much as you want it not to be so, it is the way it is.
Appreciate it. So that means if Darth Vader wasn't the spectacular swordsman that he was proclaimed to be, (because the actors who played him weren't master swordsman in any degree) then G-cannon contradicts itself. Lucas claimed that Darth Vader (even after the black suit) was a level 9 swordsman. Seeing as Vader wasn't close to that level in the original movies, it makes Lucas' statement moot.

As much as you want it to be, that's the way it is. All Lucas would have to do is go back and re edit the movies to correct for that, and then it would be.
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Old 08-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #69
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Lord of Hunger, all I am trying to say is that both of them are not as powerful as we think. They both have their weaknesses, and that's a lot of them.


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Old 08-27-2009, 05:33 PM   #70
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My choice? Anakin, Why? He is the chosen one.



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Old 08-27-2009, 06:00 PM   #71
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Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No. That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.

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Old 08-27-2009, 06:48 PM   #72
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Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No. That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.
Very true. Pehaps the upcoming TOR novel may shed light on this matter.


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Old 08-27-2009, 07:23 PM   #73
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Interesting topic.

LoH, however much respect I have for you, Im going to have to call you on this. Darth Vader (with the suit and without) was instrumental in defeating a very large portion of the Jedi Order (and I dont want to hear you say that the clone troops killed most of them, blah blah blah, he had to kill some if not most of them himself, with a little backup.) at the temple. On the other hand, when did Revan march into the Jedi Temple and murder everyone in sight, oh thats right. He didn't. He walked in, asked politely if anyone wanted to join him in fighting the mandalorians and left.

Personally, I think that Revan would win, but not for the reasons stated above. Revan was a master of tactics and strategy, sure, but that wouldn't help in a lightsaber battle.

Here's my combat equation for this battle.

(Revan's Juyo + Echani Battle Precognition) + (Anakin's Djem So/Shien + Superior Force-abilities) = Slim victory for Revan

Anyone who says that Tactics and Strategy would have any effect on a single-man engagement should be lined up and shot, thats just ridiculous.

Im also going to have to agree with Gob here. Revan IS an unknown. Was he a consular, sentinel, or guardian? Did he prefer kicking ass with his lightsaber, or with the Force? Just how effective was his combat strategy, was it really amazing, or just the ability to bring endless overwhelming force into play? We'll never know, because KotOR isnt set during the Mandalorian Wars, its set after.

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Old 08-27-2009, 07:41 PM   #74
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Well in terms of Revan's lightsaber abilities, he did defeat Malak. Compare Malak to Darth Vader and I would say they are about equal, except for Malak being able to use Force lightning and the other is vulnerable to it. I would favor Malak in that regard.

Now as for the one on one thing, I don't agree on that. I think that their entire range of strengths should be considered. Revan was way more intelligent than Anakin or Vader ever was. He was more charismatic. He was described by Kreia like looking into the heart of the Force.

Anakin probably was a better lightsaber dualist and may have had greater potential, but turning into Darth Vader really makes any predictions to his true potential unknown. Revan had never been compared to Anakin in any degree, so without any point of reference for either character, you really can't definitively favor one over the other except with what you've seen them do.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:37 PM   #75
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Lord of Hunger, all I am trying to say is that both of them are not as powerful as we think. They both have their weaknesses, and that's a lot of them.
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Originally Posted by You
Anakin on the other hand was a hero at the end. Anakin was the true Chosen One, he actually did save the Republic and finished the prophecy, but it was until the end, so he did it very late. He was suppose to be the savior of the Republic, and he was because he killed Darth Sidious. Without Anakin there'd be no Luke. Both of them have their negatives, so they're both equal. Still....Anakin was original.
So you are saying that when you were claiming that Anakin was a great hero and equal to Luke, you actually meant he wasn't all that great.
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Originally Posted by Gob
Revan only has stuff to prove that he's powerful. But not how powerful. Until some new piece of lit comes out that gives us a precise indication of Revan's power, he's unknown. Simple as that. Could he beat RotS Anakin? Possibly. Can we say for sure? No.
Please actually read my posts. I specified during this debate that we were discussing pre-amnesia Revan, which is different from the personality created by the Jedi Council. We have strong idications that Revan was a Consular due to the descriptions of his extensive Force Mastery. Strategum is often a trait of the Consular class. Malak, who relied on brute power, was more likely the Guardian of the two.
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That's not what the thread's asking, though. But the thread's topic is invalid, because we haven't seen Anakin at his full potential. And we never will.
We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing.
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Originally Posted by Kado Sunrider
LoH, however much respect I have for you,
Why thank you.
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Im going to have to call you on this. Darth Vader (with the suit and without) was instrumental in defeating a very large portion of the Jedi Order (and I dont want to hear you say that the clone troops killed most of them, blah blah blah, he had to kill some if not most of them himself, with a little backup.) at the temple. On the other hand, when did Revan march into the Jedi Temple and murder everyone in sight, oh thats right. He didn't. He walked in, asked politely if anyone wanted to join him in fighting the mandalorians and left.
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Originally Posted by Bastila
What greater weapon is there than to turn your enemy to your own cause? To use their own knowledge against them?
Let us see what Revan did in comparison to Anakin.

Anakin walks in with guns blazing and kills a whole bunch of a Jedi...with a great deal of help from the Clone Troopers. I doubt that he would have been able to kill all of them if there weren't Troopers to at least distract the Jedi.

Revan enters and persuades the more talented and powerful of the Jedi to join a worthy cause, then afterwards form a powerful Sith Empire. He has reduced the power of the Republic and Jedi by at least a third and formed an Empire from scratch.
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Originally Posted by Kado Sunrider
(Revan's Juyo + Echani Battle Precognition) + (Anakin's Djem So/Shien + Superior Force-abilities) = Slim victory for Revan
1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side.
2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going?
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Originally Posted by Kado Sunrider
Just how effective was his combat strategy, was it really amazing, or just the ability to bring endless overwhelming force into play?
According to Canderous Ordo, Mical the Disciple, G0-T0, and others, Revan did used very complex tactics often involving feints and the willingness to sacrifice one asset to acquire ten others. It was Malak who used the Sith Armies for overwhelming force tactics.
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Originally Posted by Kado Sunrider
Anyone who says that Tactics and Strategy would have any effect on a single-man engagement should be lined up and shot, thats just ridiculous.
I'd say the exact opposite. Ever heard of Dun Moch? One does not need to kill to defeat an opponent. Oh, and Dooku? To a master duelist like him, leverage and terrain are everything. Charging into battle like a loon (something Anakin did against Dooku during the end of Episode II) is like asking for failure.
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Originally Posted by Agincourt
He was described by Kreia like looking into the heart of the Force.
Unfortunately, this is hyperbole and doesn't really provide much value to an argument. I've learned that over time.
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Originally Posted by Agincourt
Anakin probably was a better lightsaber dualist
Proof? Mastery over Djem So does not equal a better lightsaber dualist, considering that it is easy for someone with lots of great strength to master. For the most part, all you're doing is just hacking at your opponent very quickly. Juyo, meanwhile, is a far more complex form.


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Old 08-27-2009, 10:30 PM   #76
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What does it for me is that Anakin took on eight Jedi and killed them all almost single-handedly.
This was in a comic book, which conflict with Vader's true abilities in the movies. G-canon overrules C-canon, if that's what people will go at.

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Of course, as this is Anakin pre-Vader suit, I'd say Revan would beat him without the suit.
The suit made Vader much less able than he was before that. This is supposed to be like Vader's mind in Anakin's unmutilated body. Not that Vader really improved much once his will and body were broken.

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Besides, Anakin was naturally strong in the Force (Lucas confirms he's the Chosen One, and just look at his midichlorian count)

Also, there's nothing to confirm that "Older SW Jedi/Sith > Newer Jedi/Sith"
Lucas had never addressed this, as he had never expected KOTOR to come into existence when he created Star Wars. If he says that Anakin was the most powerful Jedi, but another from the KOTOR era showed himself superior, then the superior canon creates a flaw in the logic of it all.

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We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing.
Not really. They're projecting what Anakin would have become if he wasn't Darth Vader. Then on top of that, whether he was superior to Revan. One speculation upon another.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger View Post

1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side.
2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going?
Well you should assume that Anakin would have learned more fighting techniques eventually. But you do have a point that Revan was more skilled.

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According to Canderous Ordo, Mical the Disciple, G0-T0, and others, Revan did used very complex tactics often involving feints and the willingness to sacrifice one asset to acquire ten others. It was Malak who used the Sith Armies for overwhelming force tactics.
So Revan used finesse, which could topple extreme levels of raw brute strength. Anakin on the other hand was like superman. Invincible, but was nothing without his super strength.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:42 PM   #77
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Please actually read my posts. I specified during this debate that we were discussing pre-amnesia Revan, which is different from the personality created by the Jedi Council. We have strong idications that Revan was a Consular due to the descriptions of his extensive Force Mastery. Strategum is often a trait of the Consular class. Malak, who relied on brute power, was more likely the Guardian of the two.
Wait... What? I was referring to pre-amnesia Revan. His power is unknown. We know he's strong, but not how strong. We don't know how he beat Mandalore, Yusanis, and Malak. What have they done? There are no feats or quotes giving us a good idea of how strong they were. And for all we know, he could have killed them all with grenades. But we don't know. Obi-Wan beat Grievous, killed Maul, and defeated Durge. Those feats seem to match Revan's.

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We have seen his pre-Vader potential, at that is what this thread is analyzing.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about Anakin at his full potential. He said "if he wasn't burned on Mustafar," and if he meant RotS Anakin, he probably would have stated so. But he'll have to specify.

Quote:
Anakin walks in with guns blazing and kills a whole bunch of a Jedi...with a great deal of help from the Clone Troopers. I doubt that he would have been able to kill all of them if there weren't Troopers to at least distract the Jedi.
Obviously, the clones did most of the killing. But that was mostly for the common Knights and such. Anakin killed Cin Drallig, the Jedi Weaponsmaster while fighting off one or two other Jedi. Shows that he was probably taking care of the more notable ones.

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Revan enters and persuades the more talented and powerful of the Jedi to join a worthy cause, then afterwards form a powerful Sith Empire. He has reduced the power of the Republic and Jedi by at least a third and formed an Empire from scratch.
Don't see what that has to do with anything. Revan was more charismatic, that much is apparent.

Quote:
1) Djem So has to be the most overrated lightsaber combat form in existence. The fact that he beat Dooku with it is not a testament to the strength of the Form but the fact that he was able to surprise his opponent with a different form and the use of the Dark Side.
How is Djem So overrated? And what does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
2) More natural potential does not equal Superior Force Abilities. Anakin was a Guardian, and thus never developed much focus and a range of different abilities. Revan was a Consular who studied under many Jedi Masters, and at Malachor and Korriban. See where I am going?
No. First of all, you have no proof that Revan was a Consular. You're using pure speculation. Also, we know that Revan was knowledgeable in the Force, but we don't know what he knew. Saying he knew a lot doesn't mean anything.

Quote:
I'd say the exact opposite. Ever heard of Dun Moch? One does not need to kill to defeat an opponent. Oh, and Dooku? To a master duelist like him, leverage and terrain are everything. Charging into battle like a loon (something Anakin did against Dooku during the end of Episode II) is like asking for failure.
Anakin grew tremendously, both in power and experience, between AotC and RotS. Using his faults from AotC when referring to RotS Anakin is like calling out ESB Luke when talking about FotJ Luke.

And Dooku uses Makashi, which is designed to use as little energy as possible while making precise strikes and exploiting flaws in an opponent's swordplay. Terrain isn't its foundation.

Quote:
Proof? Mastery over Djem So does not equal a better lightsaber dualist, considering that it is easy for someone with lots of great strength to master. For the most part, all you're doing is just hacking at your opponent very quickly. Juyo, meanwhile, is a far more complex form.
Dooku has noted that Anakin was the best practitioner of Djem So he had seen in his life. And that's really saying something. And what does Juyo have to do with anything? There's no proof that Revan used it, if that's what you're inferring. Plus, form =/= automatic victory.

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Old 08-28-2009, 12:18 AM   #78
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Wait... What? I was referring to pre-amnesia Revan. His power is unknown. We know he's strong, but not how strong.
So what you are saying is that you have multiple personality disorder and none of those personalities know anything.




[/JOKE] In all seriousness, I have cited numerous indications of Revan's training and power.
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We don't know how he beat Mandalore, Yusanis, and Malak. What have they done? There are no feats or quotes giving us a good idea of how strong they were. And for all we know, he could have killed them all with grenades.
Perhaps then you might try LOOKING IT UP! But no, you're just going to say that it's all unknown and use that as a way to shut down this debate.
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But we don't know. Obi-Wan beat Grievous, killed Maul, and defeated Durge. Those feats seem to match Revan's.
Grevious - Cyborg who killed a bunch of Jedi
Maul - Skilled Juyo Duelist
Durge - Bounty Hunter with a tendency to survive things a lot

vs.

Mandalore the Ultimate - Leader of the Mandalorians (which means he's the greatest of them all)
Yusanis - Skilled Echani General and Senator
Darth Malak - Dark Lord of the Sith, empowered by the Star Forge

Does the sheer difference between these different sets of characters mean ANTYHING to you?
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about Anakin at his full potential. He said "if he wasn't burned on Mustafar," and if he meant RotS Anakin, he probably would have stated so. But he'll have to specify.
Yes, obviously he will.
Quote:
Obviously, the clones did most of the killing. But that was mostly for the common Knights and such. Anakin killed Cin Drallig, the Jedi Weaponsmaster while fighting off one or two other Jedi. Shows that he was probably taking care of the more notable ones.
Killing Cin Drallig is about the only significant thing I've seen Anakin do.
Quote:
Don't see what that has to do with anything. Revan was more charismatic, that much is apparent.
It has everything to do with everything. It shows that Revan is by far the smarter individual of the two.
Quote:
How is Djem So overrated? And what does that have to do with anything?

No. First of all, you have no proof that Revan was a Consular. You're using pure speculation. Also, we know that Revan was knowledgeable in the Force, but we don't know what he knew. Saying he knew a lot doesn't mean anything.
You really enjoy not reading anyone's posts carefully and then repeating yourself over and over again, do you?
Quote:
Anakin grew tremendously, both in power and experience, between AotC and RotS. Using his faults from AotC when referring to RotS Anakin is like calling out ESB Luke when talking about FotJ Luke.
Except that Anakin's idiotic "let's jump over Obi-Wan" move on Mustafar shows that he didn't really grow all that much. Anakin in AOTC is a Padawan bordering on Knight, and becomes a Knight before ROTS. Luke in ESB is an Apprentice and becomes a Knight by ROTJ. Big difference in growth.
Quote:
And Dooku uses Makashi, which is designed to use as little energy as possible while making precise strikes and exploiting flaws in an opponent's swordplay. Terrain isn't its foundation.
Actually knowing and utilizing terrain is a primary aspect of all dueling. A Master duelist like Dooku would recognize this. For example, he distracted Yoda in AOTC by bringing down a column.
Quote:
Dooku has noted that Anakin was the best practitioner of Djem So he had seen in his life. And that's really saying something. And what does Juyo have to do with anything? There's no proof that Revan used it, if that's what you're inferring. Plus, form =/= automatic victory.
I could quote the Wookiepedia page on Revan, specifically the one that cites that he used Juyo, but I'm not going to be bothered because it is the obligation of both parties to research the topic before entering the debate. And yes, I've read Anakin's page...thoroughly. I was not impressed.


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Old 08-28-2009, 05:09 AM   #79
Agincourt
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But Anakin is the chosen one; well was the chosen one. He was George Lucas' favorite and he was the one Lucas said was the most powerful Jedi ever.

Cling to G-canon.
Cling to G-canon.
Cling to G-canon.

George says it's Anakin
George says it's Anakin
George says it's Anakin

Most everything else points to Revan, but it's not like you can contradict G-canon.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:38 AM   #80
adamqd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agincourt View Post
But Anakin is the chosen one; well was the chosen one. He was George Lucas' favorite and he was the one Lucas said was the most powerful Jedi ever.

Cling to G-canon.
Cling to G-canon.
Cling to G-canon.

George says it's Anakin
George says it's Anakin
George says it's Anakin

Most everything else points to Revan, but it's not like you can contradict G-canon.
Read back a couple of pages.

The fact that people quote real world statements/canon in a fictional character vs fictional character discussion, means they entered this discussion with the intention of ending said discussion... kind of pointless really.

we all know George doesn't know anything about the EU, and doesn't care, and his word rules... but we can still discuss cool stuff without bringing down the G-bomb



Last edited by adamqd; 08-28-2009 at 11:49 AM.
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