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Old 11-28-2009, 06:01 PM   #1
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Scottish Independence - really worth it?

I noticed this entry on Nick Robinson's (The BBC's Political Editor) Newslog this afternoon while reading BBC News.

It's well known that the SNP's major long term goal is the separation (or at least, a referendum on separation) of Scotland from the Union, and while this White Paper doesn't mean independence, it seems to be a significant step in that direction.

Of course, independence would allow Scotland to call itself a sovereign nation, make its own laws, join the EU and so forth, but I do find myself wondering what independence would bring to Scotland, especially after reading this section -

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC Newslog
However, his proposals will aim to move away from debates about symbols. The Queen can stay, so too the pound and the army and there will, he assures non-Scots, be no passports, no Hadrian's Wall, no ditch on the border.
Anyway, what do other people think? Would independence ultimately be beneficial to Scotland, or would it be better if it remained a part of the Union, only with more devolution? Or, is it simply whining on the part of the SNP?






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Old 11-28-2009, 08:01 PM   #2
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I'm thinking it sounds like "whining". All the more so as the EU gets ever larger. If they joined the EU as a seperate entity, would it really matter in the end whether they were "British" or just Scottish as most states would be shedding much/all of their sovereignty to join the group in the end?


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Old 11-28-2009, 08:32 PM   #3
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Considering that unless there is an amazing overhaul of the design of the UN, small nations have almost no say in it, Scotland would essentially move from being a quarter of a small empire, to an irrelevant cog in a giant nation-federation.


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Old 11-28-2009, 10:42 PM   #4
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Things just aren't like they used to be. Back in the day, William Wallace would kick ye English asses all the way to Sterling and cry FREEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOM. But alas, even the Scots now want allegiance to the Queen, to the pound, to the army, and to everything British.

I'd rather Scotland remain a part of the Kingdom. Geographically, Great Britain with its upper part hacked off would look very strange indeed.


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Old 11-28-2009, 11:51 PM   #5
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I think the Scots just want Balmoral Castle back from the Queen.


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Old 11-29-2009, 05:01 AM   #6
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Don't have enough insight from the article to make an informed commentary or to have a firm stace.

While I am all for an independent state anywhere in the world I fail to see the point of what such an act would accomplish? It might give them sovereignty which is understandable (seriously, I am probably one of the biggest advocates) but at this point in time wouldn't that kind of make things a little more difficult for everyone around them?

I'm interested to see what my friend SW01 has to say about this... Kind of defies what's reasonable doesn't it?


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Old 11-29-2009, 06:12 AM   #7
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I'm English, I don't consider myself British, because the rest of the Union don't like us and don't want to be British anyway, I'm not forcing people to associate themselves with me.

I'd rather it be England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland... And not Just for Sports.


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Old 11-29-2009, 08:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
I think the Scots just want Balmoral Castle back from the Queen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
I'd rather Scotland remain a part of the Kingdom. Geographically, Great Britain with its upper part hacked off would look very strange indeed.
There seems to be some confusion over what independence means here. First of all, if anything, I'd say that the majority of Scots are more likely to support the monarchy than most people in England or Wales (though most probably not orange Northern Ireland). Independence for Scotland does not mean the creation of a republic. More likely is a return to the situation before the 1707 Act of Union, where the Kingdoms of England and Scotland shared the same monarch (and had done since 1603) but were distinct and sovereign states. All that's likely to happen on the royal front is that the poor Queen would have to sit through another two exceptionally long and boring coronation ceremonies, because she has only been crowned the Queen of Great Britain, rather than England and Scotland.

Quote:
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I'm English, I don't consider myself British, because the rest of the Union don't like us and don't want to be British anyway, I'm not forcing people to associate themselves with me.
What is it to be English? When Great Britain was created, the English made themselves synonymous with British. Now that Britain is apparently dissolving, how do the English define themselves? Football hooliganism and a breast obsession? Sumer is icumen in? What?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Things just aren't like they used to be. Back in the day, William Wallace would kick ye English asses all the way to Sterling and cry FREEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlos View Post


What is it to be English? When Great Britain was created, the English made themselves synonymous with British. Now that Britain is apparently dissolving, how do the English define themselves? Football hooliganism and a breast obsession?
I'm Just saying I don't like people who don't like me... English is Just a word. Don't Like Football, and I appreciate Breasts of all sizes

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o...k


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Old 11-29-2009, 12:03 PM   #10
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I'm Just saying I don't like people who don't like me... English is Just a word. Don't Like Football, and I appreciate Breasts of all sizes
It was meant as a serious question: What does being "English" mean? I certainly don't know, that's for sure. Whatever or wherever England is, its about as far from the "green and pleasant land" as Jerusalem. If the 1707 Act of Union should be repealed I think we're going to have something of an identity crisis on our hands.

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Old 11-29-2009, 01:44 PM   #11
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I suppose thats what English means to me.


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Old 11-29-2009, 03:15 PM   #12
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The way it reads, it's almost as if he is advocating Scotland becoming a British Protectorate of some kind - it's very strange that Salmond would be happy to retain the Pound, recognition of Her Majesty as Head of State, completely free and borderless movement and the protection of the British Army, yet advocate some kind of 'independence-lite' as Nick Robinson called it.

I find myself very much against it - the people and Scottish Parliament are against it, which is a situation I have seen mirrored here, yet he plans to propose it anyway. I personally hope he and the SNP get snapped back by the people and Scottish Parliament over it.

On the democratic principle and the seeming nonsense proposal, then, I am against it. I'm firmly against any such thing here too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd
the rest of the Union don't like us and don't want to be British anyway
The fourth largest party in Westminster might disagree. I personally would not have things any other way, and would certainly not willingly surrender the (very significant) part of my nationality that is British. Wanting to identify oneself as 'Northern Irish' or 'Scottish' or 'Welsh' is not necessarily a rejection of one's British nationality - no more than it is so when one describes oneself as 'English'.

Long story short - I'm against breaking up the Union without a very clear democratic mandate, and I think if any such thing was to happen with Scotland, however factually empty and only symbolically effective a break it might be, it would be a serious blow to Britain.



Last edited by SW01; 11-29-2009 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlos
Now that Britain is apparently dissolving, how do the English define themselves? Football hooliganism and a breast obsession?
What happened to Cricket and Pimms on the village green?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW01 View Post
I find myself very much against it - the people and Scottish Parliament are against it, which is a situation I have seen mirrored here, yet he plans to propose it anyway. I personally hope he and the SNP get snapped back by the people and Scottish Parliament over it.
That's the problem when your party is a governing without a majority - I know that many of the parties (especially Labour) that make up the Scottish Parliament have vowed to vote down any talk of a referendum because it's not what people want.

I think the SNP were hoping to stoke up some nationalist sentiment by putting forward this White Paper on St. Andrew's Day, but it looks certain to backfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW01
Long story short - I'm against breaking up the Union without a very clear democratic mandate, and I think if any such thing was to happen with Scotland, however factually empty and only symbolically effective a break it might be, it would be a serious blow to Britain.
I can definitely agree with that.






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Old 11-29-2009, 08:17 PM   #14
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:50 AM   #15
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamqd View Post
Crap Weather, Wimbledon,
Job seekers allowance and simpletons,
Archaic traditions, Hoodie Knife Killers,
A Pint of best and Sunday Dinners,
Miners Strikes in the 1980's, Nothin but Immigration to fight over Lately,
12 hour Shifts and a Cup of Tea,
I suppose thats what English means to me.
I was quoting John Betjeman's "In Westminster Abbey", actually; I have to say that "class distinction" is not something I'm a fan of. Although, it must be said, I am a fan of proper drains. Nice modernisation, though.

Edit: "In Westminster Abbey" can be found here, if you're interested.


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Last edited by Pavlos; 11-30-2009 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:28 PM   #17
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literally do not care at all, that movie owned



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Old 11-30-2009, 11:28 PM   #18
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I especially liked the moonshot; immediately followed by an arrow in the ass.

But yeah, that movie's one gigantic historical inaccuracy.


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Old 12-01-2009, 01:37 AM   #19
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I actually Liked the Movie hehe, I just disliked the Dreadnought of Anti-English Bricks flying though windows on its release lol


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