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Old 01-21-2010, 04:40 PM   #41
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have the troops complained though.... worrying about the enemy is weakness. if the troops complain, then thats a different story.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:52 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moda
have the troops complained though....
According to the BBC's article on this, the MRFF has recieved several e-mails from American Muslim soldiers who raised concerns about the inscriptions.


Anyways, it seems that Trijicon have agreed to remove the quotes from scopes destined for military use.

Story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Story
Earlier today, Gen. David Petraeus, who commands CentCom, which oversees U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, told a D.C. thinktank that the company's practice was "disturbing …and a serious concern for me" and field commanders. He said there had been considerable discussions within the Department of Defense about how to deal with Trijicon's practice.
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Originally Posted by Story
"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," said Stephen Bindon, Trijicon president and CEO in a statement. "We want to thank the Department of Defense for the opportunity to work with them and will move as quickly as possible to provide the modification kits for deployment overseas."

The Trijicon statement said that the company would: "Remove the inscription reference on all U.S. military products that are in the company's factory that have already been produced, but have yet to be shipped" and "Provide 100 modification kits to forces in the field to remove the reference on the already forward deployed optical sights."







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Old 01-21-2010, 05:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moda View Post
worrying about the enemy is weakness.
Educated Opinion or Fact? I would like to see the statistics or the source on this claim if you are claiming to be presenting facts.

Also are you saying all Muslims are the enemy? That is what you seem to be saying.


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Old 01-21-2010, 07:51 PM   #44
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No, it seems to me that he's saying the Muslim's we're fighting are the enemy (the radicals), while the others appear to be fence-sitting irrelevancies. Still, at least the company is agreeing to remove the verse issue from the scopes. An apparent oversight corrected. In a way you are both correct. The opinions of the radicals are immaterial, however we can't say that all muslims are islamists, hence the verses become an issue.


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Old 01-21-2010, 08:01 PM   #45
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No, we are not both right, while I agree that I really don't care what the enemy thinks, all Muslims are not our enemy. It is pretty clear that is what moda is implying. So both opinions are mutually exclusive and we cannot be both right.

The attitude that we don’t care what other cultures think about our action on their own land is the reason why we have the enemies we do today.



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Old 01-21-2010, 08:11 PM   #46
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No, he was saying we shouldn't care what the enemy thinks (in this case the radicals)b/c we end up looking weak in their eye for our (over)sensitivities, but I agree with you that he doesn't give much shrift to the rest of the muslim population that either isn't islamist or fellow travelling noncombatants(not the same as calling ALL of them enemies). Hence why I also agree that the practice was shortsighted in terms of our missions over there.


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Old 01-21-2010, 08:35 PM   #47
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What ever happened to
'Thou shall not kill'?


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Old 01-21-2010, 09:12 PM   #48
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It probably got discarded by humanity......much like "thou shalt not commit adultery" and "thou shalt not steal".


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 01-21-2010, 09:45 PM   #49
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I really don't know what to make of it. Maybe if marylin manson had a concert down there we'd all just get along?

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Old 01-22-2010, 02:43 PM   #50
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I don't see the point of putting any words on the scope of a rifle, much less words that don't assist with the use of the weapon (like the label on a safety switch or something).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegame197676
what ever the troops want on the scope of their rifles is their business... as long as they are hitting the enemy centermass thats all that matters to me.. Huuuaaahh!!
**** center mass, shoot 'em in the face.


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Old 01-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #51
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I'm missing the point on why this is such a humongous issue. I think it's just way overblown because we're terrified of ticking anyone off. First, Iraqis speak Arabic, which doesn't even use the same alphabet. How many Iraqi soldiers read English? They're far more likely to pick up Turkish or Farsi as a second language if they pick up one at all. I doubt the average Iraqi soldier would even be able to read the inscription in the first place, much less understand the reference. Third, whether they're shooting at us for religious reasons, or they believe we're there to steal their oil or they hate capitalism or Americans, it doesn't matter. They're at war with us and are going to shoot at us anyway. While I'm all for cultural sensitivity, I really could care less what my enemy thinks, unless it involves distracting him in some way from taking me out before I take him out.
Finally, if he's close enough that he can actually read the inscription on my scope, the concern over whether or not he now considers this a holy war would be the least of my problems.


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Old 01-22-2010, 04:19 PM   #52
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I think it's a more of the threat of prolonged terrorism due to the perceived opposition to Islam than anything else. Jihadists will use it as nothing less than a propaganda tool to recruit others, which will only be used against the West. While it's not detrimental to the most apologetic of Islamic extremists, it will only help convince wary mainstreamers to promote the former group's cause.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
I think it's a more of the threat of prolonged terrorism due to the perceived opposition to Islam than anything else. Jihadists will use it as nothing less than a propaganda tool to recruit others, which will only be used against the West. While it's not detrimental to the most apologetic of Islamic extremists, it will only help convince wary mainstreamers to promote the former group's cause.
OK, an inscription in a language people can't even read to a reference in a holy book they've never read is going to become a propaganda tool. Sure.

Jihadist imam: "Behold! The Great Satanists have put inscriptions to their cursed Bible on their scopes! We must kill them! Join the fight for Allah!"

Reasonable Iraqi: "So, a verse of some book I can't even read, don't care to read, and will never read is on a rifle scope, and you want me to kill for that. Sure thing, right after I, uh, go wash my hair. For the next thousand years."

This makes about as much sense as American fundamentalists wanting to kill Iraqis because the Iraqis have 'Allah' done in henna on their arms. It's also insulting the intelligence and appropriate judgment of reasonable Iraqis.


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Old 01-22-2010, 08:19 PM   #54
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But, Jae, you assume it's reasonable Iraqis that will fall for such a ploy. Most of the jihadis, whether educated or not, are extremists. "Reasonable" people are much less likely to fall for such a ploy and usually have other motives for fighting.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:34 PM   #55
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I am sure there are sensible people who won't mind it. I just loathe the fact that the U.S. treats Christianity as its official and only religion. IIRC, the Constitution prevents an official religion. It is also not the "right" religion. All religions are just looking at the portrait from another angle.


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Old 01-22-2010, 08:37 PM   #56
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I'm with Jae. This isn't a big deal. Those who would use this as propaganda would find any excuse to use anything as propaganda. If we're so worried about how they will perceive us, we need to have the religious preference taken off our dog tags as well. Already troops are told to remove things such as crosses. I understand that a Christian quote could be construed as a religious effort in a war. But to the extremists, it already IS a religious war. They won't care about the words on a scope nearly as much as some make it out to be.

Besides, so long as American troops are in the "Holy Land" it will always be a religious war to the extremists.

And does anyone know exactly what the inscription is? The exact inscription? Its not as if the actual John 3:16 verse is on there. The inscriptions are rather vague unless you know what you are looking at.
The first is:
2COR4:6
and the second is:
JN8:12

They don't have the whole verse written out(not that you could have the whole thing written out). But to those that know the first is second Corinthians 4:6 and the second is John 8:12
See for yourself how the verses are packaged.


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Old 01-22-2010, 08:51 PM   #57
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This was on the news last night. The ADF uses American scopes on our Steyrs and the concern was brought up that they had biblical inscriptions on them. Parliament reviewed this and considered withdrawing them from service for another manufacturer, then requested the manufacturer to remove the inscriptions which was agreed. Some Parliamentary official made a public statement that the ADF does not represent any other agenda besides Australian national interests despite how such things may infer otherwise, hence the request to the manufacturer. He wished to reassure Australians that our defence forces are not running around in Timor and the Middle East declaring biblical scripture at the point of a gun.

I agree with Jonathon-7 on this issue.

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the first world war was a clashing of the old and new styles of european culture, germany representing the future, england and france the old way of life. the first world war in my honest opinion became a clash between the old way of life and the new way of life. a clash between what was and what was to be.
Most people confuse the respective themes of WW1 and 2, what's described here is more representative of WW2. Comparatively England and France were just as progressive in WW1 as anyone else, and the Kaiser's interests were joining in on the European Imperialist rape of African resources whilst Russia, Austria-Hungary and Turkey all wanted to dominate the Balkans. The environment of WW1 was formed during the Boer War and with Kaiser Wilhelm and Hindenburg's "gunboat policy" in northern Africa (they wanted part of the French and British colonies handed over).
WW1 was all about Imperialism and upcoming Imperialists, there was nothing new about it. Krupp had been selling mass produced armaments indescriminantly for decades previously, by the 1890's the face of warfare had really changed irrevocably so there wasn't even anything new about that, just that in media terms WW1 was in everybody's face. But it wasn't any different to the Crimean war and some clashes in Africa between 1890-1915 were basically identical to the Somme, without the witnesses.
In about 1916 the tank and front line warplane were basically invented (as opposed to armoured cars and spotter craft), which made a distinct visual impression during WW1 of sudden and extreme technological development, but it was really after the war that the impact and implications of such developments were mooted.

Politically the beginning of WW2 were much more about the themes mentioned, one of Hitler's major campaigns was to promote the Nazi Party as "the blend of the old (traditional monarchists) with the new (ideological warriors)." In Imperialist terms the USSR and Nazi Germany at their cores were very progressive, but also of course extremely abusive.
During the thirties Nazi Germany was sold by media to the international community as technologically progressive, which was probably facilitated by the reputation of Krupp Werks which armed most of the militaries of WW1, by creating what was in fact a fiction about Nazi military power during the mid-30's the public support in France and Britain could be gained to continue military spending which especially following the Depression had become a major issue.
During WW2 the UK was forced to relinquish its colonies abroad, their populations such as Indian Regulars demanded independence as a reward for British military service during WW2. Similarly the War in the Pacific forced the UK and USA to relinquish their colonies to their indigenous populations, because the Japanese first argued they were "liberating them from industrialists" and the Allies had to finally offer independence when taking them back again, or else it would look like the Japanese weren't lying.
In the places like Indonesia and Vietnam/Burma however the locals had to fight wars of independence anyway, one of which continued into the American war in Vietnam because they needed communists to help them kick out the French and yanks don't like commies.
So it was really WW2 that was the clash between the old and the new...but that war has never really ended.
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Old 01-22-2010, 09:04 PM   #58
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I don't see the point of putting any words on the scope of a rifle, much less words that don't assist with the use of the weapon (like the label on a safety switch or something).


**** center mass, shoot 'em in the face.
No you shoot the enemy centermass because the 5.56 round our soilders use in the M4 rifle is designed to ricochet through the chest and abdomen of the target.. thus increasing the effectiveness of said shot and allowing the soldier a much bigger target for a kill shot.


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Old 01-22-2010, 09:16 PM   #59
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No you shoot the enemy centermass because the 5.56 round our soilders use in the M4 rifle is designed to ricochet through the chest and abdomen of the target.. thus increasing the effectiveness of said shot and allowing the soldier a much bigger target for a kill shot.
Not to mention Centermass is the part that moves the least. A head shot is more likely to result in a miss than a kill shot. And I'd rather get a hit than a miss any day. Not to mention, even if it somehow passes through clean, a sucking chest wound takes two people off the battlefield. The injured and the one attending to his wound.


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Old 01-22-2010, 09:35 PM   #60
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It isn't like they have Al Jazeera or worship services to tell them what is written on the scopes.


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Old 01-22-2010, 09:49 PM   #61
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OK, an inscription in a language people can't even read to a reference in a holy book they've never read is going to become a propaganda tool. Sure.
Yes. The Satanic Verses was a novel that few in the West had even heard about, let alone isolated near-poverty Muslims... yet, every Iranian citizen became acquainted, familiarized, and furious with it overnight, all because the Ayatollah told them so. The first day, no one in the pan-Islamic world had heard of Salman Rushdie, and now, he's everyone's arch-nemesis. It's quite the cakewalk for any poverty-level, mainstream Iranian to go from blissfully ignorant to well-versed, radical idealist, all because of one person told them so. I'm sure that's not just confined to any nation, religion, or creed, too.
Quote:
This makes about as much sense as American fundamentalists wanting to kill Iraqis because the Iraqis have 'Allah' done in henna on their arms. It's also insulting the intelligence and appropriate judgment of reasonable Iraqis.
Any troubled youth can turn from complacent and reserved to violently radical by the influence of any role model(s)... that's how society gets a good deal of the gang activity, tyrants, and mass-murderers from. The poverty-stricken aren't the only ones; the violent can also originate from the intellectual middle and upper-class citizens; John Walker Lindh, for example. Ultimately, it depends upon the personality and current state of the individual, and the appropriate corrupter, in order to breed hatred such as this.
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:09 PM   #62
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It isn't like they have Al Jazeera or worship services to tell them what is written on the scopes.
Take a look at the "Bible Verse" on that scope I posted. The inscription could easily be confused with a part/tracking/serial number. It's not even listed as "John 8:12" It could just as easily have been 2 June 8:12AM


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Old 01-22-2010, 10:25 PM   #63
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Quote:
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Take a look at the "Bible Verse" on that scope I posted. The inscription could easily be confused with a part/tracking/serial number. It's not even listed as "John 8:12" It could just as easily have been 2 June 8:12AM
Your right, they would never be able to figure that out.


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Old 01-22-2010, 11:28 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Take a look at the "Bible Verse" on that scope I posted. The inscription could easily be confused with a part/tracking/serial number. It's not even listed as "John 8:12" It could just as easily have been 2 June 8:12AM
Unfortunately, b/c we're fighting this like a Vietnam style "hearts and minds" style conflict, it is a molehill that is being blown up into a mountain. While most jihadis wouldn't have the inkling to even look at it unbidden, they will be bidden by their masters to take it into consideration. C'est la guerre.


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Old 01-22-2010, 11:37 PM   #65
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Before or after OUR news reported on it. Considdering how they JUST found out after our news agencies broke the story, AFTER the company has already agreed to remove the verses for the military version. How long would it have been if the owners had just said, "It's just a coincidence."

But you're right, AlJazeera will give them all the hate material they need. Not like they need any more. They have plenty. Even if they couldn't use the scope verses, they could find some oddball other reason to fuel more hate on the US.


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Old 01-22-2010, 11:51 PM   #66
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Move the goal post? The point isn't when or how they found out, the point is that they found out. It was a oversight nothing more, but it was a oversight that was highly preventable had the people in charge just used a little common sense.

Edit: Article JediAthos writes about below: Petraeus calls gunscope inscriptions "disturbing" from Yahoo! News

United States Central Command



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Old 01-23-2010, 12:01 AM   #67
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There was an article on Yahoo! earlier today in which General Petraeus said that he was "disturbed" by the verses on the scopes. Some of the things he said were some of the same concerns voiced here. I'd quote them but I can't find the article again and don't really have time to search The same article also stated that any future items provided to the U.S. military will not have any such inscription on them. The company is also going to provide modification kits so that the inscriptions can be removed from products already in service.

I would imagine that this will resolve the issue and it will quickly fade into the black hole of news stories when the wonderful "journalists" find something else to talk about.


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Old 01-23-2010, 12:41 AM   #68
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Move the goal post? The point isn't when or how they found out, the point is that they found out. It was a oversight nothing more, but it was a oversight that was highly preventable had the people in charge just used a little common sense.

Edit: Article JediAthos writes about below: Petraeus calls gunscope inscriptions "disturbing" from Yahoo! News

United States Central Command
There was no goal post I was aware of. Did I not mention earlier that those who would call this a religious war would do so anyway. AlJazeera has been doing so without the bible verses. They've been making it out to be America's War on Islam since the start.

A little common sense? I pointed out how obscure the references were. Can you honestly tell me that you would have automatically assumed that 32JN8:12 was talking about John 8:12? It's actually a portion of the part number. Which actually makes sense of the whole light quote... In fact you kinda gotta hand it to them for using a creative part numbering system where the part number actually tells you what it is if you know the specific passage.

2COR4:6 Night Scope
JN8:12 Advanced Combat Optics


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Old 01-23-2010, 02:00 AM   #69
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Frankly, though, someone could have made the whole story up (not unheard of in US media....some fiction has even won pulitzers for big named outfits) and the islamists would still have latched onto it and used it even if it had later been reported as false b/c you wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of a "good story/spin". It's a footnote, b/c it's been corrected, but it ultimately is much ado about nothing and its impact on the "jihadi recruiting effort" is questionable speculation at best (much like Gitmo....unless you really believe that it took the pampering of jihadists in a US military prison to radicalize "stable youths" in the first place). One wonders what the next islamist molehill is that will be blown into a full scale mountain.


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Old 01-23-2010, 06:59 AM   #70
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But, Jae, you assume it's reasonable Iraqis that will fall for such a ploy. Most of the jihadis, whether educated or not, are extremists. "Reasonable" people are much less likely to fall for such a ploy and usually have other motives for fighting.
Exactly... Hmm what would those reasons be? Oh yeah, people invaded their homeland! If americans (or russians, or the chinese, or even freaking swedish) attacked my homeland, i┤d kill as much of them as i can. Without any thought given to possible religious differences. I think the average iraqi soldier is just defending his home from a foreign force.


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Old 01-23-2010, 08:33 AM   #71
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I think the average iraqi soldier is just defending his home from a foreign force.
Huh? The average Iraqi soldier is being trained by American and British toops. I thought we were training them to help defend their country from insurgents. I did not know we were training them to kill our on forces.


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Old 01-23-2010, 08:36 AM   #72
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I wonder if he didn't mean Afghani, but then we're training their army/police as well.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 01-23-2010, 08:23 PM   #73
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Drunkside appears to have just arrived here from the past. A couple of years ago when the American forces were actually fighting Iraqi military. He appears to be unaware that the persons actually taking up arms against our troops are insurgents. A majority of whom are from countries other than Iraq.


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Old 01-24-2010, 08:11 AM   #74
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I take note of why the verses are on the scopes in the first place. Trijicon has been doing it for 20 years, long before they started selling anything to the military.
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Any idea why?
It's in the article:
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Originally Posted by USAToday.com
The scripture references were begun more than 20 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who died in a 2003 plane crash in Alabama.


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Old 03-10-2010, 09:25 PM   #75
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Sorry for the mini-necro, but I just wanted to point something out that hadn't been noted yet. A friend of mine who is currently in the army (and has been long before GWOT), pointed this out:

"This isn’t news…. They’ve been on there since as far back as I can remember. I had a TA-01 NSN years ago that had a verse on it… and the reflexes had them. So it wasn’t like this was inspired by Sep 11th to get back at Muslims or anything whacky like that. I think many people are overlooking the fact that all of the bible verses have to do with "light"... self illuminated optics and all that. I think it has more to do with that than proselytizing."

I pretty much agree with him. The company's founder wanted to put some clever references to light in his optics, easter eggs if you will. Being a devout christian, when he thought of light, and easily referenced pages/phrases, he thought of the bible.

Also, the current sales aren't "contracts" per se as most are sold and bought under COTS (commercial off the shelf) sales so there was no contract vehicle that they developed the product to sell to. In other words, they're the same exact models being sold to the civvy market, and changing the model names would have been very strange. Also, the optics work well, and honestly that's all that matters in the field.



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