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Old 02-06-2010, 08:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by machievelli View Post
As much as the liberals believe..

Really? REALLY?


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Old 02-06-2010, 10:06 PM   #42
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Regarding Egypt and pyramids:
The only thing about the pyramids is that we simply don't know all their secrets. Aren't there amphitheaters even modern technology can't replicate? Or how did the tens to hundreds of tons of solid mass come to be shaped and built into these structures without any equipment?

I seriously doubt people ALONE could have done it THAT well made or THAT big--sure we have "evidence" claiming that they did but honestly there are too many pieces missing and any conjecture or statements claiming to know would be an argument from ignorance at best: We weren't there when it happened so how would we know?
Bull's bollocks. Nothing more than a farrago of doubts, ignorance and suspicion. And I'm really, really sick of listening to this kind of abject rubbish.

There is nothing in the shaping, dressing, and cutting of lime- and sandstone that cannot be done with copper or even stone tools commonly available by the Third Dynasty.

There was no manpower shortage in a country with a stable population of around three million and a vast food surplus being produced by a small amount of the population that would make manpower an issue.

There is no developmental sea-change. The mud-brick mastabas of the Early Dynastic Period give way to the stone-built Step Pyramid of Netjerikhet at Saqqara, which is followed by the Maidum pyramid of Huni, the Bent Pyramid of Snofru and the Red Pyramid of the same king at Dahshur. All Khufu did was to take an existing idea and enlarge it.

There is no gap technologically that needs to filled; there is no gap in manpower that needs to be filled, and there is no gap in conception that needs to be filled. There isn't even a gap in ideology.

The Great Pyramid has the same valley temple and causeway arrangement of almost every pyramid until the end of the Middle Kingdom.

The issue is an invention without any justification. There is no basis for inventing space-aliens to explain away the pyramids. There is no necessity to invent space-aliens to explain away the pyramids. There is no logic to inventing space-aliens to explain away the pyramids.

No, we couldn't build the Great Pyramid today. We couldn't build Chartres Cathedral today. Funny you don't pick that as necessarily having been built by aliens. And why can't we build them? Because the economic structure of the modern age is fundamentally at odds with massive, monumental constructions of this sort, in a way that the economics of the ancient world* weren't.


ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA PRAETER NECESSITATEM.

*And there were complex economic systems in place, unless any of you would like to explain how lapis lazuli managed to jump from Afghanistan to Egypt without the use of trade.



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Old 02-07-2010, 12:27 AM   #43
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Darth InSidious, if I make a pyramid out of tinfoil and put it on my head, will that make the Aliens come visit me?


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Old 02-07-2010, 02:39 AM   #44
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@DI: You know what? You're right. Forget I said anything.

Back to square one with the aliens I guess.


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Old 02-07-2010, 05:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
Darth InSidious, if I make a pyramid out of tinfoil and put it on my head, will that make the Aliens come visit me?
Oh noooooooo Momerator, you wouldn't want to do that - that just really pisses them off too no end.

Now what you really what to do, is get a psychic person and do a mind-meld or something; so as to make proper contact through the right channels, that's the idea.

____________________________________________



@Thread: Yep, just like that one psychic Dr. Zahi Hawass *echo* (WORLDS MOST FAMOUS EGYPTOLOGISTS)*echo* used to prove ONCE AGAIN, that the so-called "Pyramid of Khufu" was built supposedly byyyyyyyy - yes you guessed it - *echo* "KHUUFUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuu." *echo*

Which is kind of ironic when you think about it, since over the years, egyptologists have been putting down people just because they believe differently about how the "Pyramids of Giza" were actually built; as for example: technically advanced foreign refugees from a sunken island in the Atlantic, of which Edgar Cayce ( who was considered to be a known psychic ) had said the "Pyramids of Giza were built by exiled Atlanteans over 10,000 years ago and first started the Egyptian culture, or Mayan refugees who were lost at sea and drifted to upper part of Africa, etc. Oh, and of course - let's not forget the possibility of Aliens too.

Yes sir, bashing other people's possible beliefs and using psychic means at the same time, to justify their beliefs and supposed proofs. Yeah, that's the way you do it man.


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Old 02-07-2010, 01:31 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider View Post

Really? REALLY?
I usually use the term Liberal when I point at people who have unrealistic views of a situation and we usually pay the price. If you watch the older Sci Fi movies, you always have the one who says 'They're so much more advanced, they must be peaceful' right before the aliens attack.

That might not be a liberal, true. But as often as I hear absurd arguments spouted with complete confidence in politics social engineering and economics, I stand by my comment.demand 'women's choice in abortion.

New: On second tought, I have to say I am sorry I used the term. I was thinking of all the times someone would spout a position with one breath, and a diametrically opposite position on something that might be the same thing. As a 'liberal' position it is opposition to the death penalty at the same time you push a 'woman's choice' in abortion. On the same (And just as stupid front) you have the hidebound Conservatives who with one breath defend the death penalty yet scream 'Right to Life' on Abortion.

So I am sorry I called it liberal, let's just agree to call it really effing stupid.


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Old 02-07-2010, 07:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by purifier View Post
@Thread: Yep, just like that one psychic Dr. Zahi Hawass *echo* (WORLDS MOST FAMOUS EGYPTOLOGISTS)*echo* used to prove ONCE AGAIN, that the so-called "Pyramid of Khufu" was built supposedly byyyyyyyy - yes you guessed it - *echo* "KHUUFUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuu." *echo*

Which is kind of ironic when you think about it, since over the years, egyptologists have been putting down people just because they believe differently about how the "Pyramids of Giza" were actually built; as for example: technically advanced foreign refugees from a sunken island in the Atlantic, of which Edgar Cayce ( who was considered to be a known psychic ) had said the "Pyramids of Giza were built by exiled Atlanteans over 10,000 years ago and first started the Egyptian culture, or Mayan refugees who were lost at sea and drifted to upper part of Africa, etc. Oh, and of course - let's not forget the possibility of Aliens too.

Yes sir, bashing other people's possible beliefs and using psychic means at the same time, to justify their beliefs and supposed proofs. Yeah, that's the way you do it man.
Do you have any evidence for this claim? The only reference to Zahi Hawass in connexion with psychics are in relation to Edgar Cayce.

The reason Egyptologists haven't believed the inane ramblings of so-called "psychics" is because they have:

(a) No empirical evidence for their supposed abilities;
(b) contradicted the archaeological and the textual record with their frequent abject bull****.

That includes Cayce.

On Cayce himself, there is no evidence for his so-called abilities that is in any way credible.

Once again, the New Age movement attempts to obscure the truth in a heap of casuistry, implication and suspicion that goes directly against the evidence, and against the testimony of every credible scientist involved.

As in the tarot card thread, you are talking nonsense.



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Old 02-07-2010, 09:55 PM   #48
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I'd believe the aliens built the pyramids, if they were hovering above Giza. With enough people and time most construction projects are pretty attainable.

Honestly today's population is pretty technology spoiled. Most people today wouldn't survive life in the 1700's... maybe even 1800's... I mean really there are so few who could even live without takeout.... so saying that we couldn't build the pyramids today is kinda misleading... We've lost a lot of the necessary technology. Heck we have to completely start from scratch to get back to the moon. And that was only a few decades ago.

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Old 02-08-2010, 01:52 AM   #49
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I like how you imply that all of today's population is urban and American.


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Old 02-08-2010, 06:19 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
Do you have any evidence for this claim? The only reference to Zahi Hawass in connexion with psychics are in relation to Edgar Cayce.
As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.

Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.

Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it, then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?

Need links as to what the hell I'm talking about...okay, here.

http://www.badarchaeology.net/method/psychic.php

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dd5_1188071707

http://www.adambowie.com/weblog/archive/002234.html

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search




Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
The reason Egyptologists haven't believed the inane ramblings of so-called "psychics" is because they have:

(a) No empirical evidence for their supposed abilities;
(b) contradicted the archaeological and the textual record with their frequent abject bull****.

That includes Cayce.

On Cayce himself, there is no evidence for his so-called abilities that is in any way credible.
I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.

Although IMO, so-called psychics like Derek Acorah are obvisouly fakes and pretty much give past psychics like EDGAR CAYCE a bad name.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
Once again, the New Age movement attempts to obscure the truth in a heap of casuistry, implication and suspicion that goes directly against the evidence, and against the testimony of every credible scientist involved.
Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.

So I'm inclined to have more faith in what John Anthony West, Graham Hancock, Chris Dunn, Douglas Kenyon, and others say about the subject and their crediblity, compared to what egyptologists have tryed to purposely get by with; as to explanations with semi-flawed theories about the construction of the "Giza Pyramids." Although I don't go along with the "Aliens built them" idea, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a possiblity; still I don't totally support it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
As in the tarot card thread, you are talking nonsense.
Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary.


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Old 02-08-2010, 07:18 AM   #51
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I like how you imply that all of today's population is urban and American.
Nope. I wasn't being specific... and I did not add the qualifier, but that does not mean that I was talking about all of the population. I guess though that I should have been a bit more specific as the majority of people in the world probably could survive the 1700 and 1800's(seeing as how the majority of people in the world already live with that technology level). But you are right, I should have said that most people in the western world probably couldn't survive those times. Much of the west has been pretty well spoiled into being technology dependant.


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Old 02-08-2010, 07:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.
Why is it so many Americans assume everyone else on the forum is American? To assume makes an ass out of u and me.

For the record however Darth Insidious is an emenantly qualified Egyptologist, : Edit removed details of Darthies personal credentials due to his request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.
I'm going to bold this for you;

All psychology investigations into psychics have shown them to be nothing but frauds and charlatans who use sophisticated methods to fool those who already have a disposition to believe such things. They do this because theirs is a very lucrative business and they are out to make money out of the silly who believe them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it, then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?
Because psychics are a lucrative business, and the cheque given to the Museums and Pyramids in Egypt will go towards their upkeep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
Does the fact that this website is called "bad archaeology" not say it all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.
Eh? Quite a few economists forecast the economic collapse of the Soviet Union does that make them psychic? Furthermore, I predicted France would win Euro 2000, I predicted Brazil would win the WC in 2002 (and Ronaldo would top score), I predicted Italy would win the WC in 2006 and I predicted Spain would win Euro 2008 (and Villa would top score), does any of that make my psychic? Hell, for years I'd been saying that there would be an economic bust, that would get worse and worse as time went on ( I spent pretty much all of the 00's saying that), again does that make me psychic? Or perhaps all the data was there to be able to make such a prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.
What exactly isn't explained? I'm sure DI, is (unlike the psychic's) conniving, and wanting to fool the public over the true reasons behind the monuments of ancient Egypt, because he makes sooo much money out of it

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Originally Posted by purifier View Post
Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary.
Opinions are also subject to being qualified or not, DI, is far more qualified to comment than you...

Edit Addendum; not, however purifier do I expect you to heed what I say, in my experience those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be appealed to by facts an logic, for they are on island which cannot be reached by the bridge of truth. I hope however when and if, you realise you have been duped there is no financial or other cost to yourself.



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran

Last edited by jonathan7; 02-08-2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Removed details of DI's career -- j7
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:55 AM   #53
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Although IMO, so-called psychics like Derek Acorah are obvisouly fakes and pretty much give past psychics like EDGAR CAYCE a bad name.
As far as I can see, the only thing separating the two is that we know Derek Acorah to be a complete arse because of his stupendously bad acting and abortive TV shows, whereas we don't have that luxury with Edgar Cayce.

I'm a skeptic regarding anything of this nature, but i'm pretty sure that the Pyramids were built by Egyptians.

As for alien existence on the whole, it'd be nice if there were something out there, but i'm honestly not that bothered if there isn't.







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Old 02-08-2010, 12:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
As far as I know their is a new TV special that was started a few years back called "Paranormal Egypt" although I think it's a media mockery myself, with a man named Derek Acorah (a so-called psychic) and woman named Tessa Dunlop along with Dr. Zahi Hawass in a few episodes, that has been presented on cable and network television since then. Not sure how you missed all of this, but this program has been going on for quite awhile.
Possibly I missed it because it's:

a) Called "Paranormal Egypt", and so about as interesting to me as a programme called "the secret sex-life of Elizabeth I" is to an historian of the Tudor period;
b) on TV in America, where, like a huge majority of the world's population, I don't live;
c) on cable TV in America, which, like a huge majority of the world's population, I don't have.

Quote:
Anyway..Hawass has allowed these individuals with thier type of media melodrama into the "Great Giza Pyramid" and Egypt's other monuments as well, to conduct psychic investigations and present information that seems to conveniently back up egyptologists theories.
Perhaps you've missed it, but Zahi Hawass is the "world's most famous Egyptologist" for a reason. From one of your own links:

Quote:
Hawass (the granddaddy of contemporary Egyptian archaeology) seems unaware of the nature of the program. Despite never missing an opportunity for self-promotion, it seems unlikely that he would have knowingly allowed Acorah to run around his precious domain spouting spiritualist nonsense.
Emphasis mine. I think I have a good idea why Hawass allows Acorah access, though: he thinks he's a harmless nut, and he's certainly no threat to him. Again, from your own link:

Quote:
Was he really aware of what he was endorsing? On some occasions the on-screen experts can barely contain their giggles as Acorah flails wildly around the pyramids, their amusement tempered by concern that he may damage the monuments to which they have just granted him access.
Emphasis once again mine.

Quote:
Now the point being, if egyptologists don't belive in the "insane ramblings of so-called "psychics" as you put it,
Actually, I put it as the inane ramblings. Please don't correct my English - particularly when your own clearly isn't of a comparable standard.

Quote:
then why in the hell are egyptologists like Dr. Zahi Hawass allowing psyhcics like Derek Acorah to conduct such media mockery at these locations. Inquiring minds what to know?
Why, indeed?

So, just to get this straight: Your info comes from a dumbed-down, sexed-up 'psychic Egypt' TV programme? One you yourself don't think is anything more than entertainment TV? You're going to have to do better than that, because the average TV programme's research isn't worth anything.

Quote:
I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true,
OMG, his predictions came TRUE! That changes EVERYTHING.

If you make enough predictions, of course some of them are going to 'come true'. Nostradamus' predictions "came true" - the world still didn't end in 2001, did it?

Quote:
some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.
So,let's see, the predictions you quote are:

- An economic bust following nearly two decades of boom;
- The collapse of an unsustainable governmental system;
- An archaeological discovery would be made pertaining to the history of Judaeism.

Well, hold the horses there! That's so convincing. I'm also amused by how vague, circumstantial, and third-hand your evidence is.

Quote:
Oh really, as I see it there are some unexplained things about the Giza pyramids and the Sphinx that have been contradictory to some of the accepted egyptology theories over the past years; of which archeolgists and egyptologists seem to want to ignore, or provide a reasonable answer for.
... And yet you refuse to name them. How convenient.

Of course there are gaps in our knowledge. There always will be. All that means is that our current model is flawed - not that we need to start inventing mythical islands, or space entities, or abilities that there is no credible evidence for. I'll repeat it once again for you:

ENTITIES SHOULD NOT BE MULTIPLIED BEYOND NECESSITY.

What is so hard for you to understand about this?

Most of these theories have either fallen flat on their face (cf: Orion Correlation), or resorted to blatant invention to justify themselves. They are not reputable academically because they're no more evidence-based than the story of Jack and the bean-stalk.

It's true, we don't know precisely how the pyramids were built. What we do, however:

- What writing there around the pyramid complexes relates to the fourth dynasty;
-The tombs surrounding the pyramids are of the fourth and fifth dynasties;
-They show a clear progression technologically from the pyramids of Snofru and Huni;
- All the tools, manpower and time necessary to build them, as well as the economic models necessary to support the manpower and time to be used, were available in Egypt by the Fourth Dynasty;
-The Egyptians themselves believed them to belong to the kings Khufu, Khafra and Menkaura, even within the Old Kingdom;
-They show no typological difference from other pyramids of the Fourth Dynasty except in size;
-They are funerary constructions, and show a clear progression of design from the pyramids of Djoser, through to the pyramids of the Fifth Dynasty which contain the explicitly funerary pyramid texts and up to the shaft-tombs of the 17th Dynasty at Dra Abu el-Naga;
-They are surrounded by non-royal tombs of contemporaneous officials;
-The other Old Kingdom pyramids, particularly those of the Fifth and Sixth Dynasties were clearly referred to in contemporaneous texts as funerary monuments in texts fom the officials' tombs;
-Khufu's pyramid's Egyptian name was "Khufu-belongs-to-the-Horizon", "the Horizon" being a typical Egyptian euphemism for a royal tomb.

Do you really want to tell me that these are not the tombs of the Fourth Dynasty kings Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure in light of the mountain of evidence on my side, the opinion of every credible Egyptologist between here and Canberra, and my own obvious expertise?

Just to recap, the pyramids of the Giza plateau, following my above-listed evidence are:

- In the shape of buildings known from later and earlier periods to be tombs;
- Surrounded by tombs;
- Connected to funerary temples;
- Not technologically or in terms of manpower in any way improbable, for Old Kingdom Egypt;
- Mentioned in near-contemporaneous texts as tombs;
- Named in a way consistent with royal tombs up until at least the end of the Middle Kingdom;
- Believed by the Egyptians themselves to be the tombs of Egyptian kings;
- Not in any way extraordinary except in their size for Egypt during the Fourth Dynasty, or even in any period after the Second Dynasty and before the Eighteenth Dynasty, which is a period stretching, roughly, 2600-1800 BC.

Funnily enough, the reason most Egyptologists don't support these theories is because they are:

a) Unscientific, and
b) Not only have no basis in, but actively contradict the evidence we do have.

The only "vast conspiracy" is one to try and discredit the truth in order to spread blatant nonsense, and, presumably, make a huge amount of money out of it. It's not like gnosis is a new racket.

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So I'm inclined to have more faith in what John Anthony West, Graham Hancock, Chris Dunn, Douglas Kenyon, and others say about the subject and their crediblity, compared to what egyptologists have tryed to purposely get by with; as to explanations with semi-flawed theories about the construction of the "Giza Pyramids." Although I don't go along with the "Aliens built them" idea, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been a possiblity; still I don't totally support it.
Ah, yes. "Evil academics are hiding the truth!!!!!". The last refuge of the intellectually indefensible, who have no evidence and no logic to back up their rubbish.

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Yeah..and your entitled to your opinion, but do keep in mind "O InSidious one," that opinions can and will vary.
Of course opinions vary, but there is a huge difference between an informed and an uninformed or even misinformed opinion, and there is an equally vast gap between fact and fiction. And an opinion informed by the evidence is a hell of a lot more valuable than one formed out of some half-cocked, unscientific bull****ter's attempts to take you for a ride on cable TV.



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Old 02-08-2010, 12:23 PM   #55
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I'm going to assume you haven't done much research on EDGAR CAYCE, are else you would have known that some of his predications came true, some examples: he forsaw the stock market crash and great depression before it happen, he forsaw the collaspe of Soviet Union and communism before that happen, and he foretold the discovery of the Essenes and Dead Sea Scrolls just to name a few.
I foresee that Barack Obama will die, China will become the world's largest economy and that there will be at least 3 terrorist attacks on Western nations in the next 10 years.

Do I get to be called a psychic yet? I already have one of those electric crystal ball thingamabobs.


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Old 02-08-2010, 01:55 PM   #56
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@Darth InSidious
It may be a bit off-topic but since I have this occasion to ask someone who actually is an Egyptologist - could you tell me is it true that in the Great Pyramid there is only one inscription with Khufu's name (and it has an error in it) compared to other tombs with lots of inscriptions, religious texts (helping in the journey to the other world) and so on? Many theories (alien help, people from Atlantis etc.) base on it.
I'm totally ignorant in the matter so please be forgiving


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Old 02-09-2010, 12:56 AM   #57
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Ok...so maybe Jae trying to lighten the tone followed by purifier in parade was a bit too much?
@ Purifier: Don't feel too bad. Remember, we're in Kavar's where it is in fact "The Internet [serious business]" afterall. This is the midst of rigid intellectuals and "informed people" of sorts.

I feel partly responsible for steering the thread in the direction of egypt when it is about contacting aliens...is there really nowhere else to go? It's obvious nails are going to be pounded into this coffin to make sure it stays shut....soooooo......

Contacting aliens. There's obviously a ton of speculation. No real evidence captured for much of it. Yet this planet is a tiny, tiny speck of dust in the vastness of our universe. Somehow we're the only ones here? Frankly I guess so many find it hard to believe because the odds of our being the only life in this entire vast plane of existence seems low. But alas, there is proof of what aliens didn't do.

Is a lack of proof of their (the aliens') existence proof in itself that aliens in fact don't exist? I thought this was big blank area signifying that we just don't know? Could that be possible? Might they just as well not exist, if to contact them is a "monumentally stupid" idea?

I'd say either:
1)They are primitive and contact is pointless.
OR
2) If they have craft that could propel them around space, they're more advanced than us and probably either don't want to have contact with us, have malicious intentions, or simply their understanding and ours are so far apart w.r.t. life in general that we're not in any position to have contact with them (Perhaps until we ourselves advance?).
========
Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.

Until they begin landing in ships all around Earth, aliens are basically what I'm going to be shooting on a playthrough of metroid. In the mean time, I'm just going to continue fixing electrical stuff as an electrician does.


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Old 02-09-2010, 07:39 AM   #58
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@ Purifier: Don't feel too bad. Remember, we're in Kavar's where it is in fact "The Internet [serious business]" afterall. This is the midst of rigid intellectuals and "informed people" of sorts.
Eh? Firstly, I'm really not "The Internet [serious business]", however if you happen to post in the serious topics bit, you can be sure you will be called on your beliefs.

We're rigid intellectuals because we require evidence/proof for why people think the way they do? Or we're rigid intellectuals because we present evidence against bizarre conspiracy theories?

I understand exactly where DI is coming from, because if someone came and said a whole load of stuff that was false in my area of expertise (philosophy) you can be sure I would want to correct them.

Further more, I know the New Age movement isn't interested in facts and truth, but rather on how things make you feel; doesn't change the fact there is truth, and that pretty much all of what they believe is disproved, whether they like that or not. Indeed, every encounter with the New Age movement I've had has just shown that it is charlatans taking advantage and making money out of people who would believe them. Unfortunately experience tells me that those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.

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Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.
Agreed.



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Old 02-09-2010, 12:42 PM   #59
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...those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.
Kind of like the believers in anthrpogenic global warming....*rimshot*

Seriously, though, perhaps aliens exist, perhaps not. We shouldn't, however, conflate technological advancement with benevolence or being "civilized". Any other race out there may be as aggressive as us and possibly even more amoral than we are at times. Perhaps they are even too busy fighting amongst themselves to be concerned with a backwater planet like Earth. But, then again, someone always has to be first. Perhaps we'll be the aliens that others await or fear.


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Old 02-09-2010, 07:13 PM   #60
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Eh? Firstly, I'm really not "The Internet [serious business]", however if you happen to post in the serious topics bit, you can be sure you will be called on your beliefs.
Don't mistake: I have some rather high regard for the concept of research as a whole.

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*brevity*
No problems here with DI.

Just in general I only try to ...lighten the tone here by simply throwing a bone of inquiry or supposition.

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Further more, I know the New Age movement isn't interested in facts and truth, but rather on how things make you feel; doesn't change the fact there is truth, and that pretty much all of what they believe is disproved, whether they like that or not. Indeed, every encounter with the New Age movement I've had has just shown that it is charlatans taking advantage and making money out of people who would believe them. Unfortunately experience tells me that those who believe things on no logical grounds, cannot be persuaded with the use of truth and facts - they will refute all shown to them.
Well, I suppose there's another reason I remain detached from it all: Being BS'ed one too many times IRL. Though facts are only facts, it's what someone says with them that makes all the difference.

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Agreed.
Glad to hear it.


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Old 02-09-2010, 07:19 PM   #61
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Is it a stupid idea to contact them? Probably, if not for any danger, it would be futile and a waste of time.
I don't understand the fear or hesitance. I'm not saying aliens are going to be cute little green men who only want to help out mankind, but really, they said the same thing about not exploring West of Europe, because either A: nothing is out there, or B: it's really dangerous.

And look what we found, whole continents of people to kil...I mean enslav...I mean uh, yeah....

Really assuming mankind ever gets into space, I would wonder if aliens would have more to fear from us than us from them.


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Old 02-10-2010, 05:32 AM   #62
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I guess I can't say anything about it without making an assumption or presumption.

If nothing exists out there, then there is no reason to be afraid. I say (eventually) Carp'e Diem! Let's set sail in outer space.

We don't know for sure...

If there ARE aliens:

Non self aware--I do hope they aren't parasites or vicious ferrile animals.

If they are self aware, I do believe they know and understand universal and self evident truths as we do. It's also entirely possible they may be on a whole other plane of existence. We don't really know one way or another.
Just may not be able to communicate with us in a way we readily understand.

Any evidence we have that they even exist is shady at best, possibly b/c of coverup. (Maybe, maybe not. *shrugs*) And I'm not pursuing it even if it is true and supressed b/c I don't want to get the living crap beat out of me by a CIA agent and unconditionally taken into custody never to see daylight again.


When navigating uncharted territory, the wisest gambles are the best ones. Even so, it's all still by chance. There's much to be gained, agreed there. Yet so much to be lost--possibly more than what we might gain.

So, at what cost are we expanding and reaching outward?

W.R.T. Contacting them: If it was *only* at the risk of the one or ones doing it, fine. However, if it is drawing attention to our whole planet, that's potentially risking everyone's well being. In desperation I might say go for it. Otherwise...let's not tread without caution.

Space exploration: Simply not economical for a lot of reasons. Aside from sooo many risks associated from mining asteroid colonies etc. for raw ore and other materials, the world's other nations may be at war with us out in space. Not a pretty picture. Though I can see a necessity eventually coming into play here before long. thus forcing nations to cooperate.

All things considered, aliens probably don't want contact with us, and yes, are probably scared as hell of crashing in the backyard of a hungry hillbilly who does (god only knows what) with them first.

But if there's one possibly servile species, who's to say there isn't another more dominant species whom WE should be wary of?

That's why I question sometimes if God didn't have a partition here in the physical realm, in outer space, as a means to help achieve his bidding for creation and possibly other reasons. A tech/peacekeeper team if you will. Gives a whole new meaning of "watching after us".
Before all of you shoot me to death: The preceding was merely of wondering and theoretical supposition given certain hypothetical considerations. Keeping options on the table while not contradicting "the word". YES It is probably a most "liberal" display that you have ever seen even from me. Happy now?

You know, I'm thinking I should start a thread on the subject of Proof whether or not IF extra terrestrials do or don't exist, as I'd love to let people draw their own conclusions based on debate over evidence, both actual and circumstantial. I know I've a trinket to contribute about EM repulsion relevant to spacecraft mobility. Not sure what it ultimately means in the end, though.
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