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Old 03-07-2010, 10:44 AM   #1
True_Avery
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Acorn Video Fake

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=200464

Hey, everyone remember that one time Acorn supposedly did that illegal thing by helping that guy try to pimp underage girls?

Yeah, everyone, turns out that may have been fake, or at least very heavily edited. As in, its quite possible everything in the video was spliced together, audio added, and, most importantly, he not wearing the pimp outfit he claimed he wore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w.../acorn_cleared
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...#ixzz0gxvUk4eO
http://www.publicopiniononline.com/l...ws/ci_14527659
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/nyregion/02acorn.html
http://gothamist.com/2010/03/02/acor..._da_in_pim.php


“We never claimed that he went in with a pimp costume,” said Giles. “That was b-roll. It was purely b-roll. He was a pimp, I was a prostitute, and we were walking in front of government buildings to show how the government was whoring out the American people.”

For everyone out there that doesn't know what that means, B-roll means that footage was edited in later. It is also a bold faced lie because he said explicitly multiple times in Fox News interviews and his own site he wore his Pimp Outfit.

"Wow. What a six month's it's been! I want to start off with a... I have to apologize to the nation because, uh, the pimp in the pimp and prostitute video apparently wasn't dressed like a flamboyant pimp. I am so sorry this nation --- uh, for --- I don't know what to say."
-Andrew Breitbart

The two employees that were fired claim he walked in with a button-down white shirt and dress pants.

"made the hidden camera video edited it to suggest that James O'Keefe was posing as the woman's pimp, the couple actually told ACORN employees he was trying to protect her from the pimp"

It is also very important with this new bit of information arising after James was arrested for attempted wiretap to go back and rewatch the videos. You never see James, and you almost never see his "hoe" either. Much of what James says, which is the supposedly linked "child prostitution", is off camera and most of what he says is not acknowledged at all, except by the girl off camera. There are also clear edits in the middle of many of these women's sentences.

The video clearly shows they talking about some problem with someone, perhaps a pimp, threatening them. Notice how in the video they never put the "children" in the same context as "prostitutes", that every scene is spliced together, and there are conflicting points being made in the video between "house taxes" and a pimp threatening them and the Acorn employees, seemingly, lending a hand to the, supposed, "hoe" on how to avoid him.

In fact, much of the initial questions are drowned out by audio, there audio marks where muting has been done and, the big kicker, they absolutely refuse to release the original video clips and are only giving the very, very heavily edit "journalism" video with the misleading opening of him walking into Acorn with a pimp outfit, which he states on Fox News he wore into their offices.

Here is an analysis of the transcripts, from his site, and what was edited in the videos:
http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/HomeP...thExcperts.pdf

Here is where the lies begin and where America got duped by a lying sack of ****:

Quote:
1) The "prostitute" told the loan counselor that her pimp had “ all these 13, 14,15 year old girls from El Salvador and that’s what—I need to protect them like I know what its like and I have to protect them and like give them somewhere to live."
Where as, in the video, he carefully sliced that scene together to infer that they were giving him permission to pimp underage girls himself.

Quote:
2) While their press releases claim they were posing as a “prostitute and a pimp,” the transcripts show that O’Keefe consistently introduced himself as Giles’ boyfriend trying to protect her.
So, this adds further problem to him claiming he walked in with a -pimp- outfit, claiming to be a pimp in the video, and claiming to want to sell young girls. He did none of these things. He wore normal clothing and claimed he was her boyfriend trying to save her form an made up pimp.

Quote:
3) In each of the cases, the ACORN staff advised the prostitute to pay taxes, not to evade them.
His own transcripts contradict what he edited himself, and the women saying.

Quote:
4) The San Diego office reported the duo to the police. In the San Diego office, where O’Keefe/Giles raised the topic of smuggling underage prostitutes across the border, the ACORN worker called the police.
Brings a whole new light to his journalism, doesn't it?

Quote:
5) The San Bernardino video was a scam on the duo. In the San Bernardino office, the ACORN worker, finding their stories ridiculous, met them with her own outrageous tales. The ACORN worker spins tales of a sordid past, including murdering her husband. While Giles and O’Keefe had the tapes for a month before releasing them, they never conducted any kind of check of the claims. Within 24 hours of the videos’ release, the police had confirmed that no such murder had taken place, and that the worker’s two ex-husbands were alive and well. San Bernardino resident Jim Miller, who lives near ACORN's office and is also featured in the video giving business advice, said he thought the "whole thing was a preposterous production."
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention to all of you that he put this together and the news bought it like no-ones business without fact checking the video in the slightest.

Quote:
6. Child prostitution claims are applied to several of the videos, with no evidence in the transcripts. While the New York and Washington DC videos are each given the title by O’Keefe of “ACORN Child Prostitution Investigation,” in fact, in neither of these cases do the duo claim they are planning to engage in child prostitution, and no advice is given. In New York, Giles states that her abusive pimp is bringing girls over and she wants to protect them and give them a home to escape from the pimp. Of course as mentioned above, in San Diego, the police were notified, and in San Bernardino, the whole video was seen by the employee for the farce that it was.
I already made a point of this above, but nowhere in the video NOR his transcripts is it EVER eluded to he is trying to make a child prostitute ring. The only evidence we have of this is his voice, off camera, to which he is never responded to by anyone on camera.

And, again, they had the police called on them in San Diego for trying to entrap, and they were outed in San Bernardine and Philadelphia as frauds. I don't recall those being mentioned by anyone when this first aired, nor do I think, now, that Fox or anything else ever read his transcripts before hailing him a journalistic jesus.

Oh, I also forgot to mention that he is/was being sued by Acorn because, as it turns out, hiding a camera/mic and recording people is against the law. I believe we call it wiretapping, something he is currently under FBI investigation for.

A smaller known story, here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,551163,00.html

This was also faked in the same way, with clever editing, voice over work, and blatant contradictions in the transcript.

Quote:
NOTE: Because O’Keefe has refused to release the actual complete videotapes, we don’t know for sure that even the transcripts he has released (via his website) are complete.
Quoted because I really want to make this point clear. He already getting ready to sit on federal charges, has had the cops called on him for trying to entrap employees before, been outed before, and lied about his pimp costume, and has contradicting logs all over the place.

And, ontop of all of this, he refuses to give up the original, unedited tapes.

Read through the PDF yourself, go watch the videos, then read the transcripts, and also his audio logs.

So, lets look over the damage this elaborate lie has helped push:

- Multiple Acorn employees were fired, and most likely their own reputations as employees damaged permanently.
- The damage was so severe that Acorn had to close in multiple areas, had to change their name in others to save what was left of their reputation, and cost them a lot of money.
- Closing these areas means that thousands are cut off from their services.
- The House of Representatives voted to eliminate Federal funding to ACORN on September 17, although both resolutions were later nullified in a federal court ruling that the measures were an unconstitutional bill of attainder.
- The New York City Council suspended all ACORN grants while Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes conducted an investigation, costing both ACORN and tax payers money.
- On September 28, Bank of America suspended financing ACORN Housing in response to the various scandals.
- A broken reputation further broken by news media that refused to investigate before claiming their discovery as fact.

James Keefe is a lying criminal who, through his own flavor of "journalism" that was patted on the back by Fox and is still being defended by the Teabaggers, ruined the jobs of multiple employees and tarnished the reputation and funding of a community group probably beyond repair.

He released a clearly heavily edited video that the news media grabbed onto and reported as news. He released a video of an employee saying she killed her husband, which was later proven to be false and misleading as well, which was also reported by the news as fact before anyone even fact checked that her husband was actually dead.

You were, most likely, completely lied to. Spoonfed by the media information that was never researched, never fact checked, and never confirmed.

It was just accepted as completely true.

Makes you wonder how much fact checking the News media... or anyone really does before throwing something onto your television.

Last edited by True_Avery; 03-07-2010 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:03 PM   #2
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About as good as the fact-checking by CBS with Bush, looks like. Good job, journalists. You lose more credibility by the moment. However, there's enough hard evidence about Acorn's fraud that despite the Fox hyperbole, I'm inclined to believe that at least some of it's true. The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.
And they don't vote either.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
And they don't vote either.
So they only committed one crime (voter registration fraud) instead of two crimes (registration fraud + voter fraud). I don't see how that makes what Acorn did any better.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
However, there's enough hard evidence about Acorn's fraud that despite the Fox hyperbole, I'm inclined to believe that at least some of it's true. The voter registration cards don't lie, even if the video does.
I concur. Interestingly, the "B-roll" issue aside, I never got the impression he was dressed like Huggy Bear, but in fact somewhat preppy. The next step, if there is one, would be to have them reveal what they've got, compare it to what ACORN claims are valid logs and let the chips fall where they may. Either way, ACORN is still too much of a liability to be a worthy partner for any govt activity. Right now it still seems like a game of he-said/she-said.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:24 PM   #6
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Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization that pays temporary employees to register voters per the number of Registration Cards they fill out. It isn’t a case of voter fraud it is a case of employees wanting to get paid for nothing.

According to FakeNews FoxNews FakeNews, he was wearing the pimp outfit.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:29 PM   #7
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Even assuming it were merely as benign as you believe, it still seems woefully apparent that ACORN had a lot of that going on throughout the country. So, if you want to write it off as a "quality control problem", it's still sufficient proof of incompetence and neglect on the part of that corporation, thus rendering them too toxic to be dependable.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:31 PM   #8
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Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization that pays temporary employees to register voters per the number of Registration Cards they fill out. It isn’t a case of voter fraud it is a case of employees wanting to get paid for nothing.
That's like saying the optical corporation isn't responsible for any fraud committed by the salespeople in my office, or that your insurance corp. isn't responsible if one of your agents outright lies.
It's irrelevant if those employees are temporary or permanent, they're still Acorn's employees. It's Acorn's responsibility for making sure those employees are vetted properly and for turning in accurate registration cards--Acorn is the one with the gov't contract, not the temp workers. It's obvious Acorn at best didn't care about checking the cards, and at worst endorsed this activity.


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Old 03-07-2010, 12:33 PM   #9
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Gonna be honest, I'm more interested in the fact that the media ****ing lied to my face than ACORN's "Han solo" cards.

Personally I think its a little bit more of a problem considering how easily it was eaten up. The suit was a lie, the context of the video was a lie, and it was never mentioned he had already done this multiple times before and been exposed as a fraud. What he was doing was illegal, yet the media still gave him a pat on the back and a gold star and mic.

Then his video was used in a smear campaign without ever being validated, confirmed, researched, etc. Hell, without the original tapes the media had to take it ON HIS WORD that it was right, which cost people their jobs. His word, by the way, that he contradicts in his own transcripts and his own word that has caused police intervention that has proven him distinctly wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
So they only committed one crime (voter registration fraud) instead of two crimes (registration fraud + voter fraud). I don't see how that makes what Acorn did any better.
And for that, yes, they are getting their due credit for now.

However, I'd prefer them ruin their own reputation instead of this lying twit making up reasons... especially reasons as heinous as child prostitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Interestingly, the "B-roll" issue aside, I never got the impression he was dressed like Huggy Bear, but in fact somewhat preppy.
Neither did I, but he and the news still claimed he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
The next step, if there is one, would be to have them reveal what they've got, compare it to what ACORN claims are valid logs and let the chips fall where they may.
Hopefully we'll be seeing these videos soon since he's under investigation right now. I'm sure with this latest news ACORN will be happy to press charges for the tapes.

If it turns out he really did splice it up more than is obvious I hope he gets sued for everything he'll ever have. I wouldn't really mind the news stations getting pulled down a little as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
ACORN claims are valid logs
They're on his blog site thing if you'd like to read them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
Right now it still seems like a game of he-said/she-said.
This is a game of what he-said/he-said.

He claims he wore the suit. He didn't. He claims he asked to smuggle children in and sell them. Well, his own transcripts claim he said another pimp already had the children. He says he was her pimp. The transcripts say he is her boyfriend trying to protect her from a prostitution ring. He claims an ACORN employee killed her ex-husband. Ex-husband is alive asking "what?", along with the police. He claims they aid prostitution, federal investigation came up with nothing... Except his highly edited video.

ACORN didn't even really have to do any work. He is contradicting his own story.

Last edited by True_Avery; 03-07-2010 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Acorn is just as accountable of voter fraud as any other organization...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
That's like saying the optical corporation isn't responsible for any fraud committed by the salespeople in my office, or that your insurance corp. isn't responsible if one of your agents outright lies.
It's irrelevant if those employees are temporary or permanent, they're still Acorn's employees. It's Acorn's responsibility for making sure those employees are vetted properly and for turning in accurate registration cards--Acorn is the one with the gov't contract, not the temp workers. It's obvious Acorn at best didn't care about checking the cards, and at worst endorsed this activity.
No, what I wrote was nothing like saying that.


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Old 03-07-2010, 01:07 PM   #11
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I agree that ACORN has every right to sue for libel/slander/defamation on this one since the guys did alter the vids in a way that was certainly defamatory, aside from grossly unethical and completely dishonest. I'm not trying to give them a free pass on this one. I wouldn't be surprised to see Fox sued over this, too, and if they knew the vids were fake and did nothing, they are in very hot water, as is any other news organization that did the same thing.

There are three different issues on this--should Acorn be allowed to return as a gov't contractor? Nope, not with the gross systemic fraud they were committing aside from this issue. Any other organization that commits voter registration fraud, conservative or liberal, should not be allowed gov't contracts. I don't want my tax dollars paying for a company who doesn't care about doing the job in a legal manner.

Issue two--should the guys who created fraudulent videos be brought to task? Absolutely. This behavior should be squashed so hard that the roaches are nothing left but little smears on the sidewalk.

Issue three--should the news organizations be brought to task for not doing their own fact-checking, and just posting this crap without verifying it? Definitely, and especially Fox, and specifically Hannity, who used it non-stop in his anti-Obama rants. Those guys owe Acorn and Obama a huge apology.


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Old 03-07-2010, 03:30 PM   #12
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Yeah, if ACORN is actually doing something wrong, I don't want them involved in our voting system. Period.


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Old 03-07-2010, 05:35 PM   #13
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Regardless of how this turns out, ACORN is a corrupt organization that should be barred (in whatever future incarnation it reconstitutes itself) from future participation with govt activities. If it turns out that he out-Alinskied the left, good for him. However, he will have to live with the consequences of his actions and Fox News (and any others) will have to weather any hits they rightfully take for either being duped or playing along. Given the crap that progressives have inflicted on this country (whether as republicans or democrats), I can't get too excited about the hit ACORN has taken.


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Old 03-08-2010, 12:23 PM   #14
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Yes, ACORN is an evil corrupt organization for trying to find helping the poor that should be a capital offense. Everyone within the organization was corrupt and their evil socialist views must be destroyed. As a matter of fact since I volunteered for Habit for Humanity, I must be just as evil.


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Old 03-08-2010, 01:16 PM   #15
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There were already enough frauds committed by Acorn for them to deserve what they got. And regarding this incident, Jae said all I was going to say and more.


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Old 03-08-2010, 01:21 PM   #16
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Those guys owe Acorn and Obama a huge apology.
yeah, they can join the queue behind the whole of humanity.
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Old 03-08-2010, 02:10 PM   #17
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Yes, ACORN is an evil corrupt organization for trying to find helping the poor that should be a capital offense. Everyone within the organization was corrupt and their evil socialist views must be destroyed. As a matter of fact since I volunteered for Habit for Humanity, I must be just as evil.
Yeah, and John Gotti did a lot for the neighborhood he lived in, so what. However, while I think Jimmy Carter is a giant douchebag, I don't have problems with you having volunteered w/HforH. Probably only the only worthwhile thing he's been involved with since leaving the WH.


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Old 03-08-2010, 02:19 PM   #18
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There were already enough frauds committed by Acorn for them to deserve what they got.
so saith Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter.


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Yeah, and John Gotti did a lot for the neighborhood he lived in, so what.
Was John Gotti's primary reason for existence to assist the poor? No.

So despite calling ACORN a “corrupt organization” your above comparison makes it sound as if don’t even know what their primary business was.



Last edited by mimartin; 03-08-2010 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 03-08-2010, 02:48 PM   #19
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Was John Gotti's primary reason for existence to assist the poor? No.

So despite calling ACORN a “corrupt organization” your above comparison makes it sound as if don’t even know what their primary business was.
Nice try, dude. Was just giving back the flippant sarcasm you sent my way. Still, doesn't matter what you publicly say your mission is, crime is crime. After that it's all just a matter of degree. Afterall, just b/c something claims to have noble intentions doesn't A)make it so nor B) guaruntee that it will always remain so.


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Old 03-08-2010, 03:02 PM   #20
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I freely admit that I'm not too familiar with ACORN, so feel free to correct me/add info. What ACORN has done wrong seems to be to simply make an extremely common mistake, having an incentive system that lead to terrible behaviour. While yes, they should have been able to catch it, it again seems like an extremely common oversight on their part. Similar cases pf both mistakes include just about the entire banking systems incentives and half a million NGO projects that recieved/s government funding. So cutting them off from all future govt contracts, seems a wee bit extreeme, punish, yes, but don't make it permanent to help them learn from their mistakes.


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:10 PM   #21
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so saith Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter.
Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?

My sources for my original statement were several major networks during the 2008 election, FYI.

And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.


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Old 03-08-2010, 03:20 PM   #22
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I freely admit that I'm not too familiar with ACORN, so feel free to correct me/add info. What ACORN has done wrong seems to be to simply make an extremely common mistake, having an incentive system that lead to terrible behaviour. While yes, they should have been able to catch it, it again seems like an extremely common oversight on their part.
Extremely common mistake, yes, but not an entirely innocent one as they, in their defense, would have you believe. All of them do it, though, so you would be correct in the assumption that it is for tilting the election in their favor. The question here is how they go about it. Malicious or not, cheating is still cheating.

Quote:
Similar cases pf both mistakes include just about the entire banking systems incentives and half a million NGO projects that recieved/s government funding. So cutting them off from all future govt contracts, seems a wee bit extreeme, punish, yes, but don't make it permanent to help them learn from their mistakes.
I suppose that is sensible enough. Only time will tell.


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Old 03-08-2010, 03:24 PM   #23
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Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?



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And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.
I did not associate with anything of the sort.

For the record I never said anything where ACORN should get off for the voters registration fraud. I just find it funny that we are condemning the entire organization and all those associated with being corrupt. It is like people don’t even understand the concept of different divisions within an organization.

Or are you all saying that voter registration fraud makes the entire origination corrupt? Is the U.S. military corrupt because of what a few soldiers did at Abu Ghraib? Was everyone at Enron corrupt? Is everyone at Halliburton corrupt?

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Still, doesn't matter what you publicly say your mission is, crime is crime. After that it's all just a matter of degree. Afterall, just b/c something claims to have noble intentions doesn't A)make it so nor B) guaruntee that it will always remain so.
So I'm guessing I know your answers to the above quesions.



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Old 03-08-2010, 04:33 PM   #24
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Problem is systemic corruption, mimartin. ACORN is at best incompetent and irresponsible and has been demonstrated to be so in more than just the last presidential race. Hell, Lewis was purportedly brought in/elevated to clean a lot of it up. Apparently she may not be cut out for it. As to the answers to your series of questions, as corrupt as you think ACORN is. Btw, not saying that every corrupt organization axiomatically means that every employee is inherently corrupt. The IRS is corrupt, as is Congress, but it doesn't mean that every member of the organization is as well. Same goes for unions and every kind of human organization you can probably think of (including scientists and religious leaders).


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Old 03-08-2010, 05:00 PM   #25
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After O'Keefe's recent arrest for a Watergate-style break-in, it should come as no surprise that a smokescreen of FUD is being thrown up by the left to muddy the waters in regard to ACORN's malfeasance. This is damage control, pure and simple, and, to be honest, I was expecting this to happen a lot sooner, as it's been some months since O'Keefe's arrest.

Here's my take:
Both ACORN and O'Keefe represent the two extremes of our political spectrum. Is it really so shocking that they're both corrupt as hell?
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And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.
Heh. Welcome to LF.

@below: I was referring to something else entirely. Sorry for the confusion.

Moderator note [03-08-2010 05:12 PM]

Thanks



"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker

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Old 03-08-2010, 07:24 PM   #26
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To be honest, I hadn't heard of this video in the first place. As soon as the Right started using ACORN to attack Obama, I just started tuning everyone out when they mentioned it. As much as voter fraud or accusing someone of child prostitution is an important issue, ACORN has been nothing but a massive red herring for the Obama administration. There really are more important things on the table, so to be frank, I don't really care.


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Old 03-08-2010, 07:35 PM   #27
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For the record I never said anything where ACORN should get off for the voters registration fraud. I just find it funny that we are condemning the entire organization and all those associated with being corrupt. It like people don’t even understand the concept of different divisions within an organization.

Or are you all saying that voter registration fraud makes the entire origination corrupt?
I don't specifically remember saying that but since we're on with it...let's see what I said:

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Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
Yeah, if ACORN is actually doing something wrong, I don't want them involved in our voting system. Period.
Hm. I meant in the context that all of these organizations cheat to some extent or another, they're all dirty. It's kind of a dirty line of work.

Harsh though it is, I don't believe I'm being unfair b/c I look at all organizations like acorn to be corrupt at some level or another. More just "I'm not terribly surprised" response to it...

There can be good people working for a bad organization--they're good until they decide to go along with it as a conscious decision. When and where ever that might be.

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Extremely common mistake, yes, but not an entirely innocent one as they, in their defense, would have you believe. All of them do it, though, so you would be correct in the assumption that it is for tilting the election in their favor. The question here is how they go about it. Malicious or not, cheating is still cheating.



I suppose that is sensible enough. Only time will tell.
Here I believe they shouldn't get off on the cheating for which they were caught. I don't believe I'm ensung anything else.
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:27 PM   #28
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GTA I was not accusing you of writing that. I actually agree with you more in this thread than most of the others. If someone is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing them. If a organization or corporation is guilty of a crime then I am all for punishing everyone involved. What I am not for is throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because it is easiest thing to do. I am also against punishing someone for a crime they did not commit just because they committed other crimes they were already punished for.

For the record I am a patriot, I love my country just as much as anyone on the other side as the political spectrum.


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Old 03-09-2010, 01:12 AM   #29
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I wonder how much else has been bold-faced lying/misinformation. Probably a lot. The only thing I think that we need to be careful of here though is getting into that confirmation bias fueled conspiracy theorist mode of thinking. I'm not saying that that's what happened here with this debunk of the ACORN stuff, as this looks like a pretty well thought out researching of the whole thing.

Still, I think this brings up the issue of conspiracy hypotheses, (why give them the credit of the title of 'theory', anyways?) as misinformation can be a big issue for anyone looking for the truth. I often have found myself trying to decide if a certain conspiracy hypothesis is true or not, but the lack of solid facts always seems to leave me where I started - undecided. It's a pointless process without solid facts: attempt to prove hypothesis, attempt to debunk proof, attempt to debunk the debunking, attempt to debunk the debunk of the debunking, etc, etc.

I hope that history books in the future will shed light on the secrets of these years when I'm older.


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Old 03-09-2010, 05:37 PM   #30
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ACORN certainly isn't a perfect organization, but I am extremely angered at James O'Keefe for spreading lies. In my eyes, as soon as you demonize an organization through slander, then you yourself have become that demon you're trying to portray. As far as I'm concerned, O'Keefe can go to hell.


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Old 03-09-2010, 05:51 PM   #31
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Yes, feel free to tie my views into those extremists and be completely counter productive. Doesn't that make you feel great?

My sources for my original statement were several major networks during the 2008 election, FYI.

And frankly, it's a sad thing that we have come to the point where is associated with extremism and is used as a derogatory remark.



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Old 03-10-2010, 04:42 PM   #32
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^Case in point.

And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:54 PM   #33
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And, in case anyone failed to notice, voter registration fraud is a form of lying. I thought that it was worth pointing that out before this thread is completely given over to partisan bias.
I'd agree with that, but does a few people lying automatically mean everyone associated with them are lairs? Many of that worked/volunteered for ACORN had nothing to do with voter registration, so are they guilty too? However this thread is about a fake video, not about voter registration fraud.


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Old 03-10-2010, 06:29 PM   #34
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^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.


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Old 03-10-2010, 08:20 PM   #35
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I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business...
...or receive government funding.

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-10-2010, 08:46 PM   #36
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Obviously, ACORN shouldn't be held responsible for the video, since it's become totally unclear what was fabricated and what wasn't. Although the entire organization wasn't responsible for causing the voting fraud, such fraud still makes the organization unreliable, and ACORN should take some time separated from the voting process in order to clean up its internal messes (any punishment beyond cutting them out of the election process would be over the top).

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Old 03-11-2010, 01:19 AM   #37
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^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else. Thaty way despite their reputation they sort of have a new slate to start from.
It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.

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...or receive government funding.

I don't particularly like the idea of my tax dollars being used to finance fraud.
Then the list of who you think we should stop funding is probably VERY VERY long.


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Old 03-11-2010, 02:02 AM   #38
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That it is. I wonder how much money could be saved if all of the corruption were cleaned up. Maybe enough to pay off the deficit instead of increasing it every year?


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-11-2010, 02:35 AM   #39
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^^^No, however I still think they ought to have a gutting investigation and made to therefore clean up their act before being allowed to go back into the business, just like anyone else.
Like whoelse percisely? Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?


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Old 03-11-2010, 04:13 AM   #40
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Like whoelse percisely?
Precisely anyone involved in actually registering voters. Not only does that go for ACORN, but their counterparts as well.

Quote:
Ann Coulter? The Banking Industry? Halliburton? The U.S. Army? The Supreme Court?
So to put me on the defensive, you imply I'm just giving acorn a hard time b/c they're democrat based and got caught in the act--gotcha.
Well I think George Bush is a coward and he was a republican.

As to picking specific people out, sure I wish we would do that. Why don't we do that?

Unfortunately, hate to admit it but Web has a point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Web
It wouldn't help, even if they did, the people using their mistakes would go "well, back in 2009 ACORN did this! Oh they say they've changed their ways, but even though I have no evidence, my gut tells me they're the same!" Once their tarnished, they're tarnished for good.
The mistrust once there is always there, yes. Frankly, you screw with the voting system, you ought to go down for it. Presumed innocent until proven guilty, though.

Then I guess it's back to square one. So either we choose:
let them continue with corruption and vested interests or
cut them down and have another rise to take their place.

Take your pick. And I guess if we're going by this standard, firing only the few who did it wouldn't mean much if later on the same sort of thing is uncovered again. I'm still all for firing the specific douchebags, though.

Despite that there isn't always evidence, suppose the person saying that...well, long and short of it, consider the source.

Or we could just pretend people mean well and go on like we have been.
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